M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS

DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: carl6405 on March 30, 2009, 10:41:50 AM

Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on March 30, 2009, 10:41:50 AM: Hey guys.

I just got finished replacing all the lifters and replaced the timing chain tensioner. This did not fix my problem with the engine noise.

When cold, the engine sounds fine, little tapping. After it warms up, sounds like a diesel. Please give me some ideas. This is driving me crazy! Click the link to watch and listen to what Im talking about.

http://s417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/?action=view¤t=BMWEngineTapping_0001.flv

This link may be better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z75g0iwqnVk
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: derek9702 on March 30, 2009, 11:04:13 AM: Did you replace the tensioner and guides as well?
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on March 30, 2009, 11:15:34 AM: Yes. Sorry, I meant to put in the post, that I replaced the tensioner. I have not replaced the chain or the guides. I've been advised by a couple different mechanics on another site, to replace the oil pump. I have an oil pressure guage, but not sure how to connect it to read the oil pressure.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: 3seriesNut on March 30, 2009, 01:14:39 PM: you need a sending unit to read oil presure. ,ive got oil presure,voltmeter,egt and fule presure gauges in both of mine.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: beemer1 on March 30, 2009, 03:34:50 PM: Thats weird :confused: I would think that if the guides broke you would hear the chatter right from the get go, not when it gets warm.

It still wouldnt hurt to drop the lower oil pan and check for metal/plastic bits that would confirm a busted guide.

Steve
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: xwill112x on March 30, 2009, 05:24:29 PM: sounds like it's in the valvetrain to me.

compression test it.

EDIT: my buddy had a eta that sounded kinda like that, it had a bad headgasket, so again, compression test it.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on March 30, 2009, 06:50:58 PM: When we replaced the lifters, I checked the timing chain guides and they looked to be fine.
Im going to try and hook up a oil pressure guage and see if that changes as the car warms up. From what Ive learned, you have to disconnect the oil pressure warning light and connect the guage in at that location. Looks like ive got alot of things to get out of my way to do this. You guys know of a better way to connect the oil pressure guage?
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: nicknikolovski on March 31, 2009, 02:36:05 AM: No, thats the correct way, the oil pressure sender is at the back of the oil filter housing, you may have to remove the intake manifold. Very strange noise, difficult to determine where it is coming from.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on March 31, 2009, 08:19:07 AM: Im going to order a oil pump. Im getting a lot of feed back thinking oil pump. Also, there is an article in my book, "101 performance projects" talking about how the nut on the oil pump is known to somehow come loose and in worse case scenarios, the oil pump gear can come off.....which would obviously.. be a bad thing. so, thats what Im going to do next. Drop the oil pan, look for any debris in the bottom of the oil pan. Check my sump, check the nut on the oil pump and replace the oil pump.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: derek9702 on March 31, 2009, 12:52:44 PM: The M42 has a gerator style oil pump, different from the one referred to in the 101 projects book.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: Birdman16 on March 31, 2009, 12:55:41 PM: Is there oil in it to begin with? I know many people with that problem... I hope that is not it!
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on March 31, 2009, 04:02:28 PM: Birdman.. Im not sure what you mean by that? The oil level is good. It doesnt burn any oil or leak any either. Ive changed the oil 3 times. The heaviest oil I used was 15W 40. The heavier oil didnt make a difference. It sounds like something is loose up front behind the front cover to the engine. It may be that the oil pump is loose. I was going to drain the oil tonight, and pull the oil pan and take a look. But I have other things that came up, that I have to do tonight.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: nicknikolovski on April 01, 2009, 01:53:50 AM: Carl6405, the oil pump sits in the lower timing case and runs directly on the crankshaft using a rotor set. It is not driven seperately off the crankshaft using a chain and sprocket. To remove the oil pump on the M42, you will need to remove:

- The valve cover, upper timing cover, lower timing cover, harmonic balancer, a/c bracket (if applicable), thermostat housing, water pump, and then you must remove the timing chain assembly including guides and sprockets. So basically the lower timing case which bolts up to the block will be empty. Then you must carefully remove this case. (The reason I say you need to be careful is because the cylinder head sits on top of this case.) There is a procedure to remove the case without taking off the cylinder head. Search in the threads.

Then after having taken the lower timing case off, you must remove a cover on the back of the case and this will reveal your oil pump. Personally, if I went to all that effort to change the oil pump, I would change the timing chain, guides and sprockets as well while I am in there because if the oil pump is fine you may end up having to remove the chain again if this is the problem.

Check out these pages for reference:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BE52&mospid=47425&btnr=11_0156&hg=11&fg=10

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BE52&mospid=47425&btnr=11_1120&hg=11&fg=30

Good luck with your decision and hope this info helped.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 01, 2009, 04:31:52 AM: Nick, Thank you VERY much for this information. These are excellent guide lines. My step son is a very good mechanic. I passed along this post to him. Im going to order the parts today and hopefully we can work on it this weekend. After he saw the video, he called and said do not drive the car until this problem is fixed. Its not smoking, so hopefully the engine hasnt taken to much abbuse from this problem.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: beemer1 on April 01, 2009, 12:25:48 PM: I found the oil pump sprocket was loose when I did the timing chain. I don't know if that contributed to the busted guides. The sprocket was floping around almost totally uncrewed :eek:

Steve
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: B318M42W on April 01, 2009, 03:57:17 PM: Quote from: beemer1;69237
I found the oil pump sprocket was loose when I did the timing chain. I don't know if that contributed to the busted guides. The sprocket was floping around almost totally uncrewed :eek:

Steve

in an E36 M42???
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: beemer1 on April 01, 2009, 04:17:52 PM: Nope E30 m42. I just re-read the first post and saw its an E36 m42...I must be getting old :rolleyes:
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 01, 2009, 06:01:21 PM: Beemer
Im kind of thinking that I will see that problem too when we get in to it. The article in my 101 projects book says that they have been seeing the loose nut on the oil pump sprocket quite a bit. Weve determined that my engine already has a new chain and guides, as well as new timing chain gears/sprockets. So, looks like the previous owner was chasing this problem down too.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: nicknikolovski on April 02, 2009, 02:22:45 AM: The M42 oil pump has NOT got a sprocket and nut.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: beemer1 on April 03, 2009, 03:06:03 PM: Quote from: nicknikolovski;69263
The M42 oil pump has NOT got a sprocket and nut.

The sprocket on the bottom of the pic was the one that was loose. Chilton said it was the oil pump sprocket and therefore I assumed it was it.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/3354304268_fefd95d45e.jpg?v=0)

Steve
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: B318M42W on April 03, 2009, 08:10:56 PM: loll... oil pump sprocket... that idler gear is on a set of bearings of it's own. and great find by the way!
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: beemer1 on April 03, 2009, 08:49:40 PM: Learning as I go... :)
Title: Lower cover removed
Post by: carl6405 on April 04, 2009, 09:13:43 PM: Hey guys,

After a long day and much work, I finally got the lower cover off. I thought, that I would have been able to replace the oil pump from the front, but by the looks of it, Im going to have to pull the oil pan off. This is not something, I wanted to do. The main cross member is in the way. I will have to find a way to hold the engine in place while I unbolt the cross member so that I can get access to the oil pan bolts. Anybody got any tips for this.

Here is a pic of my lower chain guides. Can you guys tell by the pic, if the chain guides look ok?

Thanks
http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/lowercover.jpg
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: derek9702 on April 05, 2009, 08:52:28 AM: In order to access the oil pump, you will have to remove the cover that the guides attach to, the oil pump is housed in it. While at it, you should replace the oil pressure control valve. OEM is metal, it has been superseded by plastic. The metal has a tendency to seize in the bore, then you have no oil pressure.

Attached is the cover and the oil pump link:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=CA63&mospid=47490&btnr=11_1120&hg=11&fg=30
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 05, 2009, 09:23:59 AM: Derek
Do I have to drop the oil pan to remove this cover?
That is a good reccomdation. I never knew there was such a part. Where is oil pressure control valve located? In this, it looks like I will definately, have to remove the timing chain and all the guides as well. Is that correct?
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 05, 2009, 09:25:45 AM: I see the control valve now. Its #5 in the diagram that is posted here.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: derek9702 on April 05, 2009, 11:38:50 AM: You will have to remove the bolts at the front of the pan. 4 or 5 iirc.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 05, 2009, 11:50:27 AM: Derek, by looking at those bolts, theres about 1.5" of space to back those bolts out, before they touch the cross memeber, thats holding up the engine. Will I still have to remove the cross member? If I do, then Im looking at having to hold that engine up somehow when I unbolt the cross member.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: derek9702 on April 05, 2009, 03:27:11 PM: Yes you will. I used a jack right where the engine and tranny meet. It supported it fine. Later on however, I went ahead and pulled the engine out. I was replacing a broken piston, due to my guides shattering. That's when I discovered that it also took out the bosses that the guides bolt to. M42s are the gifts that keep giving.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 10, 2009, 12:29:06 PM: Im getting closer to getting to the oil pump. Today, I removed the alternator and the oil filter housing. Removing the oil filter housing reveals part of the problem. SERIOUS SLUDGE. Check out the pics I took of it. It was worse, my wife removed some of it before I took the pictures. Yes, she is helping me.
http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/oilfiltermount.jpg
http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/OilFilterHousing.jpg
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: beemer1 on April 10, 2009, 02:56:42 PM: Yup, I will never work on my engine again until its CLEAN ;)

To add insult to injury all the tools you are using will have to be cleaned!

Good luck,

Steve
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: B318M42W on April 12, 2009, 08:40:23 PM: Carl, could you tell me what bolt went there??? and also, does it hold anything else than just the timing cover? passes through to the oil passage??
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww298/B318M42W/oilfiltermount1.jpg)

i've got a good oil leak from that bolt (still wondering what happened to it, it's not there???)
thanks!
ps: thank you for the excellent picture that i stole from you:D
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 13, 2009, 08:10:40 AM: B318M42,

Yes, thats one of the bolts that hold the oil filter housing against the timing case. As you see in that picture there. There are 6 bolts. The two at the top are very long. If it is missing, there would definately be a oil leak.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: B318M42W on April 13, 2009, 10:48:30 AM: thanks! found a new bolt and put it in. hope it stops leaking :D
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 14, 2009, 10:21:09 AM: If it doesnt stop the leak, then you would need to order the gasket for that housing. Its not very difficult to replace. Wow, after going through this timing case/oil pump replacement project, everything seems easy in comparison. Finally got the lower timing case off this weekend. With out removing the oil pan, by the way!
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: B318M42W on April 14, 2009, 05:12:56 PM: great job! how is the oil pump driven??
(and I think it stopped leaking:D waiting for the skidplate to stop dripping to get a definate answer)
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: nicknikolovski on April 15, 2009, 04:56:46 AM: It's driven directly off the crankshaft using a rotor set. Carl6405, could you please post a picture of the back of the lower chain case where the oil pump is housed?
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 15, 2009, 07:59:45 AM: Nick, I sure will post a pic. It will have to wait until this evening, Im at work at the moment. I will give the credit to my step son for prying the timing case off of there. I had every bolt out. It is tricky, because some of the lower bolts I didnt see until after I found a pic on Ebay. Someone selling a lower timing case. I saved the pic to my pc. Printed it off and comared that with my lower timing case. I did find a couple more bolts, they were hard to see, being coverd in black oil.

The way he got it off, was he pryed at the bottom, right side, as your facing the car using a 12" pry bar. Then pryed from the bottom left and it slowly came out. He said that we are going to have to lower the oil pan just a bit, to get it back on. Getting it back on, will start, hopefully this weekend. This was a tuff job. Lots of bolts, different size bolts and hex bolts. The hex bolts are metric, I had to go buy a Hex bit set. I took photos each step though, so, putting the correct bolts back in, shouldnt be an issue.

What I found, was my timing chain, rails, and the cam gears have all been replaced by the previous owner of the car. There must have been a big problem with it, cause you can see marks from where the chain ate in to the aluminum timing case. I'll get pics of that too.
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: carl6405 on April 15, 2009, 07:26:37 PM: Pics as requested.
Oil Pump side of my timing case
http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/timingcase2.jpg
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/timingcase3.jpg)

Front side. Notice where the chain, at one time, was rubbing on the inside of the timing case
(http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/carl6405/timingcase.jpg)
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: nicknikolovski on April 16, 2009, 08:31:23 AM: Thanks for the pics Carl. Well done with that, definently a tough job.
Title: Cause of the problem found
Post by: carl6405 on April 18, 2009, 02:48:23 AM: After removing the oil pan. We found lots of black chips, all about the size of a dime. Also, a piece of metal about the same size. These are fragments of the old timing chain guides that fell down in to the oil pan were never removed, when the previous owner had it in the shop for the timing chain and guides repair job. So, These fragments were clogging the oil sump, restricting the flow of oil to the top of the motor. I dont have the engine back together yet, but it is on it's way back together. Hopefully by tomorrow evening it will be.
Title: Car is finally fixed.
Post by: carl6405 on April 23, 2009, 05:27:33 AM: Lesson from this story.
If your chain guides ever ever break or chip away. Make sure you or your mechanic removes the oil pan to check for fragments/shrapnel. Thats exactly what caused this problem. The previous owner of the car had replaced the chain and guides, but the broken pieces were down in the oil pan getting sucked up in to the screen of the sump and restricting the oil flow. Therefore the top of the engine was starving for oil.
The good news is, after all that abused to the engine, from lack of oil, the motor, inside is still in good shape. The motor was pretty clean inside. Now, she runs smooth as silk. I wil have to get a video clip of the motor running after the repair.

Thank you folks for all your help!
Title: 1993 318i M42 Engine noise with video
Post by: derek9702 on April 23, 2009, 06:41:46 PM: Glad you were able to solve the problem.