M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: rob_e30 on March 06, 2009, 12:20:24 AM
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I've been working on a design for a custom intake plenum for the race car. It will use the stock runners from the bottom end of the original plenum. Here are the pics so far...
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3283%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3284%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3285%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3286%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3287%20(Medium).JPG)
I hope to have final pics this weekend.
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nice!! I hope the e36 m42 will be next :P
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It should work for either.
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Hawt.
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I take that is for turbo or supercharger use? Because runners that short would have tuned frequency over 10 000 RPM in NA application and huge flat spot everywhere under it :)
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Will not work for E36 if using its original engine wiring harness :(
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Will not work for E36 if using its original engine wiring harness :(
true!!
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Yes, it is designed for an FI application. What about the stock E36 wiring harness keeps you from using this? If someone is interested in one of these, we can customize it with specific fittings (MAP, MAT, brake booster), brackets, and throttle body mounting.
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Rob that looks sweet as, what throttle are you looking at using? are you putting a air inlet temp boss in ikt for your ecu? were abouts?
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Wan`t one pleas, can you make me one, and how much.:confused:
nead to be shipt to norway. can pay in advance. bank wier tranfere etc.:o
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Is it for n/a or turbo aplication?
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Yes, it is designed for an FI application.
:)
Robs Car is Turboed.
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E36 uses a different design on the intake runners and the plastic box for the harness. On E30 the box sits completely underneath the runners but on E36 it sits in between #2 and #3 intake runner.
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Wan`t one pleas, can you make me one, and how much.:confused:
nead to be shipt to norway. can pay in advance. bank wier tranfere etc.:o
I can get additional plenums made and am willing to make them available. PM me for details.
Rob.
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Here are some more pics. A bit more work to get the proper throttle cable bracket, etc. but you can see how it's coming together. It needs to be cleaned and smoothed but all things considered I'm very happy with the results so far.
We'll be selling these for $800 plus shipping and a $100 core charge for the intake runners.
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3288%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3290%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/IMG_3291%20(Medium).JPG)
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The throttle body goes before it?
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The throttle body goes before it?
Yes. There is a bit more work to do with the charge pipe to the throttle body but there should be room for everything. We are running a much wider radiator than a stock M42 so the top radiator hose needs to be changed a bit.
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What rad do you use rob? might be worth considering in mine
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Looks like fun! Any plans for velocity stacks in there? What design guidelines did you use for sizing the plenum with the runner length & diameter?
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Really impressive work.
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What rad do you use rob? might be worth considering in mine
The E30 Competition Radiator from Zionsville. It's the same design as the M20 radiator but with 35% greater capacity.
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Hey Rob, YGPM
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Looks like fun! Any plans for velocity stacks in there? What design guidelines did you use for sizing the plenum with the runner length & diameter?
There are a number of variables that I tried to take into account based on the details in Forced Induction Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell. Runner diameter, runner length, throttle plate size, plenum volume, and plenum wall distance were all factored in. It's tough to explain the interaction of them all here, and like everything else it all involves a series of trade-offs.
Given the curved lip at the entrance to the runners and the fact that it's FI, I do not plan to introduce velocity stacks.
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it seems like quite a small plenum? i take your book would have given you direction on plenum vloume, whats the general theory behind plenum volume with FI?
apart from that looks good, its a nice simple (relative anyway) design that maintians nice airflow and distribution. Will be interesting to see any wheel horsepower differences...i will assume you'll be dynoing after the install?
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I don't have the details on the calculations and recommendations with me, but plenum size varies with displacement as well as the type of FI that you're running. I do recall the recommendation for turbo 4 cylinder was 1 to 1.5X displacement which would make this a 3L plenum, and is about the calculated size. I've not measured the actual volume. Other FI applications (roots blower for example) require a larger plenum in order to smooth out the pulses from the blower itself. At least according to the book.
I think if you look at other plenums from companies with a large R&D budget you'll see that the size and shape conforms nicely.
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thanks rob, 1.5 was the figure i had in mind for FI, didn't know about the differences for supercharging thou, might be worth while finding myself some literature.
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Impressive work indeed
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Got the plenum powdercoated and installed, along with the re-routed charge plumbing and coolant hoses.
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/Imagepost/IMG_3531.JPG)
And this one...
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/Imagepost/IMG_3533.JPG)
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i might have to buy one of these from you. interested in knowing how much power gained for sure though! and does the price include powdercoating?
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Got the plenum powdercoated and installed, along with the re-routed charge plumbing and coolant hoses.
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/Imagepost/IMG_3531.JPG)
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Omg!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: What a beauuuutiful M42 turbo I've ever seen.
And this one...
(http://members.cox.net/henretta/Imagepost/IMG_3533.JPG)
What throttle body is that??? and what's the oil filter cap you got, Rob???
Cheers,
George
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Thanks. Its an M20 big bore throttle body, and the oil filler cap is from Pegasus but I think he went out of business.
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Thanks. .................. and the oil filler cap is from Pegasus but I think he went out of business.
:( no wonder havn't seen it pita rare secret weapon again though. :p
by the way do you have a blueprint or some more pics vary angles of your turbo manifold or maybe can I buy 1 from you? and another 1 more thing what turbo you put on?
Many thanx
George
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Wow. That's way beyond anything I'd have even daydreamed or sketched out on paper. Nice job!
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I can produce additional intakes. They're $800 in aluminum and $1,000 USD in powdercoat including the runners (there is a core charge for the runners). Depending on your displacement, I'd recommend a GT2860 or GT3071 Garrett turbo.
It will come with a blank throttle body flange (drill it to your match your throttle body) and I can customize the bosses/fittings for MAP, brake booster, air temp, and IAC if you would like.
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any performance numbers on this unit yet?
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you said you were running a bored m20 throttle body correct? would you say this is a required or necessary upgrade, or just something you've done? would an m42 throttle body be sufficient?
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that thing looks tits! good work!
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how did you get rid of the MAF sensor without any problems D:? imma do the same thing but with a 75mm throttle body and custom weld my own Flange at the end of it lol...
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I can produce additional intakes. They're $800 in aluminum and $1,000 USD in powdercoat including the runners (there is a core charge for the runners). Depending on your displacement, I'd recommend a GT2860 or GT3071 Garrett turbo.
It will come with a blank throttle body flange (drill it to your match your throttle body) and I can customize the bosses/fittings for MAP, brake booster, air temp, and IAC if you would like.
No Rob, I mean the exhaust one that i'm interesting though. :cool:
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No Rob, I mean the exhaust one that i'm interesting though. :cool:
Oh, that's a piece from Jon at 666 Fabrication.
http://www.666fabrication.com/
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how did you get rid of the MAF sensor without any problems D:? imma do the same thing but with a 75mm throttle body and custom weld my own Flange at the end of it lol...
We don't use the stock ECU. We're running a custom Tec3R ECU from Vic Sias (http://www.siastuning.com/) that features a MAP sensor.
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hey with that turbo maniflod did you have to delete ac and power steering? is there any clearance issues?
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hey with that turbo maniflod did you have to delete ac and power steering? is there any clearance issues?
It is a purpose built race car now, so it's never had AC on it since we built the motor. I think it would fit, but there may be problems with the AC lines, etc. Check with Jon at 666 Fabrication. The power steering is not a problem.
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you said you were running a bored m20 throttle body correct? would you say this is a required or necessary upgrade, or just something you've done? would an m42 throttle body be sufficient?
We went with the big bore M20 tb for a couple of reasons. One is that we didn't like the double butterfly of the M42 tb. The other is that we had the big bore TB coming off my M20 and it turned out to be the right size tb for our turbo application.
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any performance numbers on this unit yet?
We should have performance number before the end of August. Keep looking at this thread for an update.
We are finishing some body work this week (massaging the body kit from EuroStop).
The plan is to get the car painted within the next week. After that we plan on scheduling some dyno time to tune the new intake.
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Oh, that's a piece from Jon at 666 Fabrication.
http://www.666fabrication.com/
http://www.666fab.com/M42tubular.html This is exactly what I am asking for. ;)
Sadly, I don't think it gonna work with A/C street use in my tropical zone country + It gonna get stuck with my right-hand steering column though :(
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We don't use the stock ECU. We're running a custom Tec3R ECU from Vic Sias (http://www.siastuning.com/) that features a MAP sensor.
This is awesome. :eek: Do you have some pic of it, Tec3R? What else you use for fine tune, ie, O2 wideband?
Again, thanx a lot,
George :rolleyes:
ps. do you actually spent over $3K for it ?
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This is awesome. :eek: Do you have some pic of it, Tec3R? What else you use for fine tune, ie, O2 wideband?
Again, thanx a lot,
George :rolleyes:
ps. do you actually spent over $3K for it ?
I don't have a pic of the install because it's up under the dash in the same location as the stock ECU. It's a box with a bunch of wires. We do have a wide band O2 sensor, as well as a knock sensor. I don't recall exactly what we paid, but it's been a good deal for us so far as it gives all the engine control functionality we need and it's programmable. Vic did a great job with the remote tuning and custom built our wiring harness. Given what a race weekend or race engine can cost, it's a required expense.
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have you guys had this thing dyno'd yet? what differences did it make to the power curve?
Also how is your knock sensor integrated to the ecu? does it need an external module as found in GM cars?
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We plan on getting the thing on the dyno this week.
We use an aftermarket ECU which has the knock sensor integrated. I think it's installed on the #3 cyl.
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dyno numbers? interested in buying before winter is up...
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This project has been sidelined as we complete other projects on the car.
Initial dyno results did not produce the gains we expected. We need to rework this part and that will most likely take place between race seasons.
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Are you boosted or n/a. If you are n/a you probably will not see much of a gain from a custom manifold unless you take your time and do the calculations for plenum volume and runner length otherwise you will more often then not loose power. Now if its boosted, it doesn't make as much of a difference because you are forcing air into the manifold.
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This is the car we build the plenum for:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2980038 (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2980038)
You could also see the car is the Sept '09 issue of Performance BMW
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everyone sure wants numbers :)
"Just tell me about the f$*@^!g golf shoes!!!"
Fear and loathing in Las Vegas
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So we just got back from the dyno. The new manifold made less power than expected but we just did an engine rebuild too so we wanted to eliminate other variables. We reinstalled the original manifold and made less power still. After some troubleshooting it looks like a bad injector so we were only running on 3 cylinders. Once we get the problem resolved we'll be back to do more testing. We don't expect to make a lot more power with the new manifold design, but we exoect to make it over a greater area. Back to back testing on the 3 cylinders did seem to show that the new manifold made about 15+ more RWHP but given the other challenges I don't think it's a valid test. Our peak RWHP when running right was well over 300 RWHP.
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Stay tuned for more pictures of the new version (version 2.0) of the M42 Turbo D-Mod club racer.
A spoiler shot on the rollers tonight...
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii260/pquattro/IMG_0048.jpg)
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sexy^
pm me when you have the numbers for the intake! id also be interested in knowing more about your setup if you wouldn't mind sharing details :D
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What are the advantages of this over an obx manifold
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gtfo.
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^+1
Car looks amazing rob. Can't wait to see it finished. And what kind of numbers you put down once you're running electronic boost control. Kudos.
My next E30 will be an IX, and i'm going to transplant a subaru drivetrain into it. 300hp+ AWD, sickness. For now i'll just finish my m42 NA upgrades and start saving, cuz i'll have to design at least a few pieces for the conversion; depends on how much of the subaru i decide to swap in. For now it'll just be custom axels and engine/tranny mounts, but subframes/suspension would be optimal; just expensive.
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the ix drivetrain might not be up to all that power from what i understand. gonna have to beef it up quite a bit. or are you swapping all the componants in?
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iX drivetrain is not going to be compatible with the subaru engine in any case; front diff and axle and the flat-4 engine would be trying to occupy the same space. interesting idea, though.
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the ix drivetrain might not be up to all that power from what i understand. gonna have to beef it up quite a bit. or are you swapping all the componants in?
all components. i plan on designing new cv joints to mate the hub end of the subaru half-shafts to the bmw hubs in the front. custom driveshaft to the rear, and there's certainly a bmw rear diff that can handle the power.
iX drivetrain is not going to be compatible with the subaru engine in any case; front diff and axle and the flat-4 engine would be trying to occupy the same space. interesting idea, though.
I haven't actually measured the engine bay, but i'm pretty freaking sure it's possible having owned and modified both platforms. They're shockingly similar actually, except for the fact that old BMWs are of much higher quality craftsmanship than new Japs.
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the ix drivetrain might not be up to all that power from what i understand. gonna have to beef it up quite a bit. or are you swapping all the componants in?
Sounds like a great subject for another thread.
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sorry rob.
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sorry rob.
No problem. I know how easy it is to get sidetracked. If you start another thread, you will likely get better input as well.
Rob.
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Wow the new paint job and flares look top notch!
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Check out this book...
http://www.amazon.com/Induction-Performance-Practical-Supercharging-Turbocharging/dp/1859606911/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256926360&sr=8-1
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I have one I want to sell. It bolts right to the lower intake with no mods. I didn't make it, it came with my e21, but I'll never get around to turbo-ing an M42 so it's for sale.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/album.php?albumid=79
If you're interested let me know. I haven't measured the actual throttle plate but its about 64 mm. it already has a TPS attached and will plug right in. It will require reprogramming or stand alone engine management which is why I didn't use it.
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Check out this book...
http://www.amazon.com/Induction-Performance-Practical-Supercharging-Turbocharging/dp/1859606911/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256926360&sr=8-1
is this better than corkey bell's book?
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is this better than corkey bell's book?
It's a lot more advanced than Corkey's book. I used both, but started with Maximum Boost then moved to this.