M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Suspension => Topic started by: Boosted E30 on January 27, 2009, 09:52:21 PM
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I have all i need together to do the 5x120 swap except for wheels i dont know what offset i will need or what will fit. Im using all E36 M3 parts except for the rear hubs they are E30 M3. I know i can't use smaller then a 17" wheel due to the m3 brakes which is fine. So if anyone has done the 5-lug swap or knows what wheels fit info would be appreciated.
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You can use 16'' and even 15''(not entirely sure), depends wich size is your disc.
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With E36 M3 brakes, the minimum is 17". I know, I also bought the suspension....:D
As for offset, I have no idea buddy. I'm sure some guys will come in and clarify things.
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Since no one has chimed in yet...I am running a full e30 M3 swap on mine, but I believe the answer would be the same.
Anything that fits an E30 M3 will work. Generally anything that fits an e28 or e24 (5 series to 1988 and 6 Series to 1991) will also work. At least with e30 M3 brake calipers. Offsets are generally in the 18mm-20mm range.
E36 and E46 wheels will also fit, but their offsets are generally 40mm or more so you'll need spacers which are plentiful for this application.
Later 5 and 7 series will generally not work as their hub is a different size. Although I have seen cars with these later wheels so there must be some spacer/adapter availability.
I have run 17"x 7.5" on mine and there were no issues, but my car isn't radically low. 17"x 8" seems to be a more commonly available wheel size in new wheels. I have never tried an 8" wheel, but I think width is going to depend on how low you've got your suspension set. It seems to me that an 8" rim is going to be a tough fit under stock e30 bodywork.
Somebody else can maybe answer that better.
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Ok great atleast i have somewhat of an idea of where to start.
thanks and if anyone know more detail that would be great.
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Well offsets are completely dependant upon wheel width as far as fitment goes. Maybe you should do a bit of reading on how different offsets in different wheel widths affect strut clearance and the like. Obviously wheel diameter will depend on what swap parts you use and the subsequent rotor/caliper size. Good luck.
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What suspension are you guys running that have the swap. Anyone using the bilstein pss9 kit or has anyone driven a car with those coilovers?
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Its just a spring and strut insert. You'd still need either the e30 M3 or e36 front tubes, hubs, brakes etc. In the rear you just need the e30 M3 hubs or e36 318ti hubs.
The e30 M3 set up is a simple bolt on. Kind of. M3 calipers are bigger and you also need the bigger M3 master cylinder so there are a number of downline modifications in order to make the swap.
I think the e36 suspension requires some modification. But am not sure.
I am running a full stock e30 M3 suspension. Stock springs without the spring pads etc. Its not the lowest set up but works great for the crappy roads we have here.
Do some searching here. There have been a number of discussions of pros and cons of each and what you need to get it done.
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I'm doing a mix and match setup.
E36 M3- front knuckles, lower control arms, rotors, calipers, pads, front shock mounts, and bilstein pss9 coilover kit.
E30 M3-rear hubs they fit without having to change the whole trailing arm assembly or half shafts.
As for master brake cylinder im gonna use one from a early model 750il as they are the cheapest and have an awsome pedal feel.
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Sounds like a great set up. The only thing I'd question is the Bilstein coil over set up. I am assuming you are using the e36 M3 part since i don't believe there is an e30 Pss9 kit. Wouldn't this be designed for a much heavier car? How will that affect performance and your range of adjustability?
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Yes im using the kit for the e36 m3 and yes i know the car is heavier and the springs will be alot stiffer then for an e30. i dont really have an answere as to how it will perform just have to wait and see.
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I've heard of a caster issue using the e36 front parts... I'm doing the swap as well using the 96ti rear and the ti fronts. i was told there is a caster issue that the front wheels will not be total center to the wheel well. i was also told that camber/caster plates will help the issue but not solve it. Have you heard any of this? also is there any difference with the e36 front parts to the e36 M3 front parts.
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E36s have high offsets, E30s have low offsets.
Basically you'll need high offset rims in the front and low in the back if you do go with this setup.
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I've heard of a caster issue using the e36 front parts... I'm doing the swap as well using the 96ti rear and the ti fronts. i was told there is a caster issue that the front wheels will not be total center to the wheel well. i was also told that camber/caster plates will help the issue but not solve it. Have you heard any of this? also is there any difference with the e36 front parts to the e36 M3 front parts.
there is a difference in the e36 and the e36 m3 front parts and yes the caster does get messed up but it is fixable with the offset control arm bushings and the e36 front control arms.
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there is a difference in the e36 and the e36 m3 front parts and yes the caster does get messed up but it is fixable with the offset control arm bushings and the e36 front control arms.
so all i need to do is get the E30 M3 offset CA bushings along with the caster/ camber plates with the e36 non M parts and that should work?
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As far as i know yes. Pm HMS_Tim he has done a similar swap and will be able to give you more info i have not done my swap yet im waiting for my camber plates. From talking to different ppl i have learned you do need the control arms offset bushings and camber plates to get the wheel to sit in the fender and align properly.
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thanks.. i'll pm HMS_Tim and ask.. i already have on order the offset bushings
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E36s have high offsets, E30s have low offsets.
Basically you'll need high offset rims in the front and low in the back if you do go with this setup.
that would be great for a staggerd rim set up...
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hello i'm to this also want to do the 5 lug swap, already have ti complete rears so the ti front parts will work on e30 if i'm reading this correctly
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hello fellow members i also want to do 5 lug swat, already have ti rears complete will the fronts work on e30
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No.
You need 96+ M3 front parts.
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thanks will start looking for parts.
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you dont have to use the 96+ m3 parts i just am because of the big brakes i love the look of wheels full of brakes. you can use just regular e36 parts but you will need the 97 m3 control arms to get the aligenment right as far as i understand.
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Not to be redundant guys but i am considering the same 5 lug swap. From reading the material here, if i understand it correctly is that, one would need 96+ m3 complete front and a TI complete rear. Am i correct in this?
The next question is, Couldn't the e30 m3 entire suspension also work. Providing that one could find a complete suspension that someone was willing to part with
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The 5 lug swap to e36 is pretty simple. I've got e36 lower control arms, e36 325 knuckles and struts and e30 m3 off set lillipops. I am also running an e30 caster camber plate. I feel it is needed to get the caster adjustment where it would be needed. My front wheels were pushed to the rear of the fender opening about an inch or so. I'm fighting with trying to dial more caster in and centering the wheels in the opening. I'm looking into a more offset adjustable bushing. The e36 swap will keep the track width about the same as an e30 setup.
As far as brakes, I went with e36 325 calipers up front and e30 m3 rear calipers. e28 m5 master and e21 booster. There was a little shortening to be done to the shaft in the master, but other wise it bolted right in. I also removed the proportioning valve inline that went to the rear brakes to get it equal.
e30 m3 front and rear would just bolt right into any e30, but they are expensive and a little hard to find.
I am looking for the 97 control arms to see if they will put the wheel where I need it and give me the caster I want. I will post what I find when I get it done. I'm prepping for an event at Mid ohio in two weeks, so I have my work cut out for me.
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^^^^ thank you very much and i cannot wait to hear the 97' parts results
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Thanks for clairifying HMS_Tim so everyone understands you can use either m3 knuckles up front for big brakes YOU WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO FIT 17" WHEELS OR BIGGER IF YOU USE E36 M3 KNUCKLES. otherwise you can use regular e36 kncukles in the front and the smallest wheel size you can use is a 15". The caster issue should be resolved with the 97+ m3 control arms, offset control arm bushings and camber plates.
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What are you guys doing to resolve the bump-steer issue that comes with using E36 parts in an E30?
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Boosted E30 : camber plates or camber/caster plates? It was mentioned that camber/caster plates would be needed, but if only camber is needed that makes life easier.
Forgive this next question.. but the knuckels you are talking about is the part that the steering rack connects to the CA's?
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I dont know for sure if you need camber/caster plates im sure you can make it work with just camber plates i ordered these my buddie has them on his e30m3 and loves them. http://www.ksportusa.com/asp/pillowball_detail.asp?product_id=pm01
As for the knuckles that is the peice that holds your rotors calipers struts wheel bearing and hub and essentially where you bolt you wheels to also where you attach the outter ball joint and tie rod end. Number 2 in the pic is the knuckle/kingpin
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BG93&mospid=47488&btnr=31_0420&hg=31&fg=10
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Great! thanks for the info.
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Why 96+ m3 front front & not earlier?
What is the difference?
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97+ the control arms have more positive caster so it centers the wheels better if i understand correctly.
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it almost looks like that the 97+M CA's with the E30 M offset bushings will put it in the right spot... therefore you wouldn't really need the caster/camber plates... just camber.
what i going to try is this... i have the e30 m offset bushings.. the 97+ M CA's are on the way.. i'm using a e36 strut and stock spring assembly with the e36 ti front spindle hub assembly. i'll see how it all lines up and how it is with alignment.. if i need to get camber or camber/caster plates then i will. keeps from spending more than i have to.
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Only way to find out is to try, let us know what happens you should be good with just camber plates though.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/dks%20vert/DSCN0935.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/dks%20vert/DSCN0934.jpg)
that's e36 non-M steering knuckles/brakes with 96+ e36m3 control arms and THR bushings in the front, and z3 trailing arms in the rear. shocks are e36 non-M in the front, regular e30 in the rear, and springs are for a z3 1.9 all the way around.
don't mind the oversize tires, the guy doing the work for me while i'm overseas hasn't mounted my 17" wheel/tire setup yet, he's in the middle of relocating his shop.
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Nice that looks great! what wheel tire size are you using for your 17's offset to?
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i kinda like the over-sized tire look, makes that vert look more aggresive.
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thank you both.
wheel/tire sizes are as follows (IIRC, ordered them back in january):
front: 17x8 et40, 205/45
rear: 17x9 et41, 225/40
according to the offset calculator at marksink.com, the outside lip of the front wheel should be in almost exactly the same place, while the rear is going to stick out about 13mm further. i hope so, because this is the 2nd set of 5-lug wheels i bought for this car... i f***ed up the offset math the first time in the hopes that i'd be able to use a set of M Roadster wheels, and that didn't really pan out so well. still need to find someone to offload those on. or just get another bimmer to use 'em on... :D
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Ok so the e36 suspension you end up with a pretty high offset......So if im using e36 m3 front suspension and e30 m3 rear hubs i should end up with a high offset in the front and low in the back???? which in turn means i could have a nice staggared set up with a decent dish on the rear wheels. Correct?
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sounds right to me.
only thing i have to say to that is you don't HAVE to use e36m3 front suspension, except the control arms which have to be from an S52 car. like i said, everything else i used is either e30 or some variant of e36 non-M (or just pure aftermarket, in the case of the THR CABs).
i personally didn't see the value of adding the extra unsprung weight of the M front brakes when the e36 325/8i brakes are still spec'd to stop a heavier car with more tire.
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Deekay : the z3 1.9 springs stock? the drop looks great. it also looks like your front tire is centered. The THR CAB's are the offset like the e30 m3? I'm in the middle of my swap.. cleaning all the parts right now getting them ready for paint.
so it looks like the 96+m3 CA's are needed. I was told that they weren't as well as camber plates weren't really needed. This was coming from a local performace bmw shop who has done a few already. but i'll see how they fit without and post pics in about a months time. And if i need those parts i'll get them.
sweet ride!
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sounds right to me.
only thing i have to say to that is you don't HAVE to use e36m3 front suspension, except the control arms which have to be from an S52 car. like i said, everything else i used is either e30 or some variant of e36 non-M (or just pure aftermarket, in the case of the THR CABs).
i personally didn't see the value of adding the extra unsprung weight of the M front brakes when the e36 325/8i brakes are still spec'd to stop a heavier car with more tire.
Ya i know but i got a good deal on the m3 stuff and plus i like the bigger brakes. thanks for the info though much appreciated.
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bme30: the z3 springs are H&R sport for a 1.9 vert from TMS.
the THR cabs are offset like the M3's, but i can't confirm that they're the same -amount- of offset. the guys at THR are good people though, i'm sure a quick phone call would answer that question.
the wheel looks centered to me as well, but the guy doing the work on my car says it's about an inch aft of center. it is hard to tell from the pics; i'll have to wait a few months to see i guess.
i didn't use camber plates, just stock e30 top mounts.
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Has any of you heard of these guys (or their adapters)??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-4-LUG-TO-5-CONVERSION-KIT-E30-84-91-318-320-325-M3_W0QQitemZ270369096220QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item270369096220&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318[/URL]
It looks almost too good to be true
Just paste that in your browser, canīt seem to be able to upload the link
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they look decent to me.
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thatīs what I think too. they also look very "plug & play", as in "no need for other carīs control arms, bushings, trailing arms, etc. etc."
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problem 1: non hubcentric
problem 2: cannot fit oem bmw rims (if you wanted to)
problem 3: finding rims with the high offset needed if you do not want to go down and out.
i looked at those too and for what i wanted its not for me.
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i can't look at ebay at work- are those the machined cylindrical deals that bolt 4x100 to your hub and let you bolt 5x114.3 to them?
if so, that is Doing It Wrong.
H&R makes adapters like that for the VW guys who want to run porsche wheels, but there is a reason they're only available in 4x100 on one side and 5x130 on the other; if the 5-lug bolt circle is any smaller than that, there isn't enough metal between the two sets of bolt holes to have the thing be strong enough to hold a cornering load.
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yeah, thatīs what they are?
I didnīt know there was that issue
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Started the swap today got the fronts done. with the bilstien coilovers m3 control arms and offset bushings you will not need camber plates it fits just fine with out them i do not know if this is the same for regular strut set up though. will have pics tomorrow for wheels up front im planning on using a 18x8j with et47 they fit like they were born there hopfully the rears will work........
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awesome! (we want pictures...)
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nice! mine just recently got finished; but my choice of hardware dictates the fronts coming back apart so we can put vorshlag camber plates in.
if i had it to do over, i would just get Z3-1.9-fitment coilovers, as the ride height could be a little lower... but then i'd also need camber correction for the rear, so that'd balloon the budget further and i already have a disgusting amount of money into this car... and i still have a big pile of other hardware to install (stereo and turbo) so i'm gonna have to find a way to be happy with it for now.
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i'm still working on cleaning and re painting my parts.... i'm having so much trouble trying to remove the abs sensors in the front and rear parts. any ideas? also the brake line to the rubber line stripped.. now thats another mission to deal with :( good thing i like working on this stuff.. and great thing that the car is still on the road during all this.
on the plus side... rear subframe is free from loose rust and recently repainted with tremclad rust paint :) working on cleaning the calipers and finishing those in either black or red.
i should have my e30 strut mounts and 97 M3 CA next week. i also have a set of style 32 15" ready for rubber. almost there... just a few more weeks i hope
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mine has been months already.
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67435
may want to go with camber plates in the front... i wound up slightly positive and ended up buying the vorshlag stuff. peerless (Robert) should be able to answer any questions you've got...
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Ok finally had some time for pics and to finish one rear side sort of still have to put in the new shocks and springs.
(http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/E30318is/IMG_0028.jpg)
(http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/E30318is/IMG_0029.jpg)
(http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/E30318is/IMG_0030.jpg)
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great work! if you wanna increase the camber, without buying expensive top mounts, on my M3 e36 i put some spacers between the strut and the spindle, on the bolt n°3 of this image:
(http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/m/k/8.png)
i used first a 3mm spacer, and i gain 1.5° of camber, then i put on some spacers to the wheel otherwise it contact with the strut and with 5mm spacers on the bolt #3 i reached 3° of camber!
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Thats a pretty darn good idea!!! but im pretty sure my camber is fine i dont have a track to race on around me they shut down the local one so for street driving im not to worried.
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ok, no problem! i just inform that there is that possibility, moreover putting that spacers, you will make the wheel get more inside the fender closer to the strut!
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No i appreciate the ideas allways like new things. i will post pics once i take them im done the swap. im running 18x8 et 47 in the front and 18x8.5 et44 in the rear with 225/35/18 all aound and there is no rubbing only when im at full lock on the steering otherwise its mint. the ride with the e36 m3 coilovers is amazing its stiff but not teeth rattleing stiff very nice ride i would reccomend this suspension to anyone even if you get the set up for the car you will not be dissapointed!!!!!
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All finished and nice and shiny!!!
(http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/E30318is/IMG_0032.jpg)
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wow! great job! that car seems 10 years younger than a stock e30!
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that looks tight!
i have some sad news... i'm giving up on the swap. i decided to just mod it as 4x100.
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thanks guys i think im done spending money on this car though.........maybe.......M-Tech II kit in the future?????