M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: asubimmer on June 20, 2006, 09:23:41 PM
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Well guys I know that there are at least a handfull of you guys that would be interested in a M42 turbo manifold. I have a few options of the design style that we could go with. I have a guy that is going to weld one up for me and I am going to see if he would be interested in making more for you guys. I haven't run that by him yet but if he has time to make them I really think he will jump at this.
anyway vote for what you would like to see.
1st We have the TUBULAR manifold:
-*-PRO's-*-
This is the most efficient manifold. The pipes are equal length and give you the least spool time and max HP.
-*-CON's-*-
This is the most expensive manifold.
2nd We have the LOG manifold:
-*-PRO's-*-
Fairly cheap to manufacture. USUALLY the log also allows you to keep your AC etc, but it looks like w/ the m42 the AC is going to have to come out. One of the AC hoses goes right through where the manifold pipes are prob going to be.
-*-CON's-*-
A well designed log manifold is anywhere from 75-90% as efficient as a tubular manifold. Is it worth it to you guys to not be quite as efficient to save some bucks?
3rd We have a FLIPPED and MODDED OEM manifold:
-*-PRO's-*-
This would be the cheapest manifold. Trade in your old manifold for the new and improved one ;)
-*-CON's-*-
MAY not fit. I haven't tried to fit one yet but it looks borderline. Since our M42 is tilted the manifold may not be able to clear the VC if its flipped. If anyone knows for sure that would be great :D
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I would do log for simplicity
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flipped oem then tubular
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I am also wondering how big of an intrest there is for a turbo manifold for the m42. Please let me know if you are at least interested in buying one. I don't know what design we are going w/ at the moment and I don't have a price. I just want to know an appozimate # of people that MAY (you aren't promising anything) want to buy one.
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i actually used the oem manifold(flipped) it does not hit the vc it actually hits the reinforcement by the shock tower. i had to shorten all four tubes by an inch! the problem i encountered with the stock manifold is wherever you cut you must reinforce and tig weld!(the mig weld cracked in 3 months) the tig (with the reinfocement) lasted about 1 year.
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yeah they are going to be made w/ a tig welder. If we can use the stock manifold flipped then its deff gonna be cheaper. Turn in your stock one + some $ and we keep on fabing them up.
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if we could keep ac that would be nice
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if we could keep ac that would be nice
yeah that would be good for everyone, I do plan on taking mine out b/c I never use it even though its ice cold. I'll try to make it AC stay but it looks like its going to be pretty close.
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Tubular, if your going the turbo way, make sure your pockets are deep enough or just don't do it. My 2 cents anyway
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What do you guys think of the stock manifold flipped? That would be the cheapest way to make a tubular manifold. I can even see about having them ceramic coated. They would obv be cleaned up and everything. The stock size pipes are actually all the diameter that we need. If they runners were larger than stock, the gas would loose some of its momentum and also b/c of the greater surface area, loose crucial heat!
Also I am assuming most people will want external wastegates. Am I correct in assuming this? They are really the only way to go if you are boosting. Internal wastgates suffer from boost creap MUCH easier than an external wastegate.
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Will this manifold fit a RHD?
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If I go this route, I must have my a/c - hot as fornicate down here!
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Will this manifold fit a RHD?
do you have any pics of your engine bay? the more the better.
I'll do my best to keep the AC. I'll take some pics in a little bit to show you guys the line that looks like its going to be in the way.
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If going Turbo, you may as well go 100%. Do the best manifold from the get-go, and use a S-AFC rather than just an AFPR & injectors. Not that going log and AFPR wouldn't work, it just is not the best way to do it.
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here is my manifold, im keeping the a/c but will be getting a new hose made because the old one is in the way of the manifold.
this is a right hand drive car, and will have a 3 inch dump pipe, things are pretty tight.
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/bar73k/P5210178a.jpg)
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Damn.
Looks like im going to have tons of room with no coils, no plug wires/wire sheilds, or air conditioning. Hell, I dont even have to keep the impact sensors for the SRS system now that I no longer have an airbag.
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Damn.
Looks like im going to have tons of room with no coils, no plug wires/wire sheilds, or air conditioning. Hell, I dont even have to keep the impact sensors for the SRS system now that I no longer have an airbag.
are you just straight up making it a track rat?
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Nah, I just havnt had my A/C belt on for about 2 years now and havnt missed it a bit, not to mention that its still R12. So there's my reasoning for no A/C.
Coil on plug... well its 160 for just new wires so i figured my coil on plug setup for 130 bucks was a good investment and cleaned up the engine bay.
My Mtech2 wheel deleted my airbag so I mine as well get rid of all the impact sensors. You do know how dangerous our airbags are correct?
So no, I wouldnt consider my car a "track rat" because its never been on the track. More like a tastefully moded bmw technicians daily driver.
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My Mtech2 wheel deleted my airbag so I mine as well get rid of all the impact sensors. You do know how dangerous our airbags are correct?
I've got an Mtech 2 wheel for that very reason my friend.
I'm happy that the p/o of my car converted the system to r134a...i bought two bottles of that stuff yesterday and now it blows ICE cold!!! $20 a bottle and another $11 for the pressure reader.
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back to the manifold thing I would deffiently would be interested in the stock manifold fliped just need to know a price and where to send the cash also what kind of turbo can you run on this manifold does it have to be a specific turbo or can it pretty much be any one?
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back to the manifold thing I would deffiently would be interested in the stock manifold fliped just need to know a price and where to send the cash also what kind of turbo can you run on this manifold does it have to be a specific turbo or can it pretty much be any one?
I plan on doing the stock flipped. It shouldn't be too much but I don't have a ballpark for anyone yet. More than likely the manifold will be for a t3/t4 setup but since I will be having them made I prob can have like a holset or something else welded on instead.
Basically if this works out the way I have it planned right now, you will send a manifold to me and I will have it flipped and modded for your turbo and external or internal wastegate. And then I ship it back to you. So basically you are only paying for shipping and labor not materials, since we will be using the pipes from the stock manifold.
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sweet!!!! keep us posted I am not trying to go real huge with a turbo just would like a few extra pony's under the hood
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You do know how dangerous our airbags are correct?
I've never heard anything about the air bags. What's the deal? Sorry about the off topic post.
As to manifolds, cracked welds every year seems a bit much. Sounds like a fabbed to spec stainless with some support to the block maybe the way to go from a reliability standpoint. Sometimes the more expensive one is cheaper in the long run. True if you're redoing a flipped stock header every year.
"Cheap at any price!" has two meanings and both probably apply here.
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Well I am 5'8" and 140lbs and the 1st gen airbag was designed for someone like 6'5" and 250lbs IIRC, which = certain death if it goes off on me.
The guy I am having weld up my manifold is plain AWSOME. I really doubt there are going to be any problems w/ the manifold. I can even have a support welded on also to help support the weight of the turbo if it will help everyone sleep at night ;) I was actually considering it anyway.
I've never heard anything about the air bags. What's the deal? Sorry about the off topic post.
As to manifolds, cracked welds every year seems a bit much. Sounds like a fabbed to spec stainless with some support to the block maybe the way to go from a reliability standpoint. Sometimes the more expensive one is cheaper in the long run. True if you're redoing a flipped stock header every year.
"Cheap at any price!" has two meanings and both probably apply here.
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what are you planing to do about the engine management with your turbo? I wonder if it would be possible to use a maf like bmwmans and some bigger injetors and have it running well?
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Fuel is only half the battle with a boosted setup. The ignition timing would need to be adjsuted for the new air flow. You would likely have some difficulty going FI and using a performance chip of any type on the M42 as the performance chips get the power gains from more radical ignition timing. It has been rumored that the stock chip should be OK under 10psi boost, but I would be really careful above 6psi.
Fueling can be taken care of with a simple mechanical FMU or an A-FPR + injectors (not the RIGHT way to do it, but it CAN work). Ignition timing on a modern engine like this is not as easy, at all. So, anyone wish they were running a dizzy like the M20 guys? Just turn that cap back a few degrees...problem solved. Lol.
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well if i do turbo i will probably get the e36 computer and harness
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Yeah, I suppose knock sensors would be of some help :D . The E36 uses the DISA manifold though, so I would imagine that the ECU is programmed to deal with:
a) controlling it
b) is tuned for the two distinctly different running modes. The fuel and spark maps are likely quite different than ours (with pieces of maps for the two different intake states...determined by RPM I believe).
There may even be feedback to the ECU to tell it if the internal flap has malfunctioned, so it may 'freak out' if there is not a flap connected at all.
Being tuned for the E36 manifold, just getting it running drivably with an E30 manifold (no turbo even) would be interesting. If you actually do try this, keep us posted. For your sake I hope am wrong if you do all that work! Maybe by then I will have finished cracking the 175 EPROM and some tuning can be played with.
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the knock sensor thing is just a load of poo...
Don't get me wrong they would help but they are in no way necessary. There are TONS of ways to reduce knock (ie detonation) these days. No knock sensors = no problem.
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I do agree about the knock sensors. If it is tuned right you do not need them. They CAN be useful in doing the tuning though. You cannot always hear ALL knock with a loud exhaust and rough road/noisy car though.
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Maybe EuroNation could be of help. Per his post:
"On a good note though... I've only been into BMWs for a little over a week and we're already capable of chipping ECUs. If anyone needs any custom mapping, rev limiters, etc I'll probably be offering them at EXCELLENT prices just as soon as I have a properly running car to tune with."
I have to confess that in over 45 years of designing, building, and setting up competition cars, my experience with motors is limited to following the instructions and advice of the motor builders. I built a small block Chevrolet in 1962 and haven't been inside a motor since.
"Motors is motors - cars are everything." Benny Lozano.
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Maybe EuroNation could be of help. Per his post:
"On a good note though... I've only been into BMWs for a little over a week and we're already capable of chipping ECUs. If anyone needs any custom mapping, rev limiters, etc I'll probably be offering them at EXCELLENT prices just as soon as I have a properly running car to tune with."
I have to confess that in over 45 years of designing, building, and setting up competition cars, my experience with motors is limited to following the instructions and advice of the motor builders. I built a small block Chevrolet in 1962 and haven't been inside a motor since.
"Motors is motors - cars are everything." Benny Lozano.
and look at my post right below that one. He doesn't want to help right now. Ohh well
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Yeah, I suppose knock sensors would be of some help :D . The E36 uses the DISA manifold though, so I would imagine that the ECU is programmed to deal with:
a) controlling it
b) is tuned for the two distinctly different running modes. The fuel and spark maps are likely quite different than ours (with pieces of maps for the two different intake states...determined by RPM I believe).
There may even be feedback to the ECU to tell it if the internal flap has malfunctioned, so it may 'freak out' if there is not a flap connected at all.
Being tuned for the E36 manifold, just getting it running drivably with an E30 manifold (no turbo even) would be interesting. If you actually do try this, keep us posted. For your sake I hope am wrong if you do all that work! Maybe by then I will have finished cracking the 175 EPROM and some tuning can be played with.
well the dasc completly gets rid of the factory manifolds and it seems to run fine.
Would using the e30 chip with the e36 computer lose the functions of the knock sensors?
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Heh now there is a good question. I heard RUMOURS that the E30 chip had knock sensor functionality programmed in, but the Motronic 175 did not have the inputs wired. The E36 uses a Motronic 175.2, as dubbed by others, so perhaps it just had the components on the PCB for the knock input. I really cannot confirl this right now though, but who knows!?
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i am very interested in a stock flipped manifold......i am wanting to run a dsm 14b or 16g turbo, what would i have to do make these manifolds work for that....anyways keep me posted on price and how i can get my hands on a manifold
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Well, I can help out with making flanges since I have a mill. Just get me the dimensions for T3/T4/whatever ones you need. Cost would not be too too high, but stainless is not cheap, and neither are the end mills that cut it. Flanges wouldn't be $10 I guess is what I am saying, but I'll know after I see a drawing!
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and look at my post right below that one. He doesn't want to help right now. Ohh well
I'll have to talk to my friend that I'm working on this chipping project with. We should be able to do it. He's the man behind the coding, scaler values, map hunting, etc. I'm the guy with the car, the tuning skill and the idea.
Setting up for larger injectors, a timing pull, and a fat torque curve would be pretty easy but it's hard enough to do it here at home without a romulator... looking at logs, modding the map, pulling the chip, flashing it, putting it back in. Think about how hard that would be if every time we changed the fuel numbers two points or took three degrees of timing out of it we had to ship the chip cross country :o
Knock sensors... really handy to have but I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to do a wiring swap for them. The problem with knock sensors and timing pull is that in order for them to work it has to knock. Setting the timing map right in the first place is a better idea. If you're really concerned pick up a Knocksense (http://www.viatrack.ca/)
For the manifold, in VW applications I've used logs and tubular. Tubular has about a 20-30hp advantage at about 300-350hp which is highly depandant on how nice or bad each manifold is and what kind of engine we're working with. That said... when I get this BMW turbo thing figured out I'm probably going to offer a few kits. Stage 1 and 2 would almost certainly be using a log manifold since I see no glaring need for anything more at ~175-225hp.
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http://www.audspeed.com/pages/4/index.htm
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HUMBLE HELPFUL ADVICE = USE S.S. T321 TUBING OR A NI-RESIST HI NICKEL CASTING , WITH PRESSURE PROOF SLIP JOINTS, ALSO WHEN YOU SUPPORT THE WEIGHT OF BLOWER , GIVE IT ROOM TO MOVE-GROW A 1/4 INCH IN LENGTH ,321 IS AN AIRCRAFT S. S. EXHAUST GRADE ALLOYED WITH TITANIUM , T304 IS WHAT THEY USE FOR THE TOILETS
I've never heard anything about the air bags. What's the deal? Sorry about the off topic post.
As to manifolds, cracked welds every year seems a bit much. Sounds like a fabbed to spec stainless with some support to the block maybe the way to go from a reliability standpoint. Sometimes the more expensive one is cheaper in the long run. True if you're redoing a flipped stock header every year.
"Cheap at any price!" has two meanings and both probably apply here.
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The final design is coming together for the manifold and I am talking to a company that we all know and love to hopefully make a turbo chip for us.
I will do a write-up when I am done with the project for you all. I am tossing the idea of selling a "starter kit". It would include a manifold, chip, COP upgrade?, piping?, fmic? who knows.
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Just trying to get to know the car. BUT, in FL I would like to turbo my a/c.:cool:
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well the flipped manifold looks very promising. Its basically headers. The turbo manifold will be in the way of one or your AC lines, no other ac components. You could either remove the AC or move that line.
Mine is being made right now and I'll post pics when I get it back. This setup should be effiecient and not cost very much. Best of Both worlds. A+ for BMW on this manifold.
(http://i3.tinypic.com/24b67pd.jpg)
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This sounds great.. It'd be super badass if you could offer a package with manifold, chip, etc etc, and then let us know exactly what we needed otherwise to get our setup up and running.. I'm definatly interested, and I'm down with the flipped as long as the quality is good, and it won't crack in 3,000 miles
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its actually looking like we don't need to shorten it to make it fit. Whick means only flipping, redrilling the mounting holes, and then using an adapter from manifold to turbo. I'm hoping that works out b/c it would be really easy and very sturdy ;)
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would a flipped and modified manifold hold up to the weight and heat of the turbo wihtout cracking? I know most turbo manifolds are made out of a lot thicker steel than used on the stock header
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it should hold up fine. I am going to add a support to help hold the weight. The stock manifold is pretty thick imo.
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do we have an approx. date when you'll have this together yet bro? I'm super interested because I'm tryin to turbocharge this spring :D I'll subscribe this thread and keep close watch :)
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well I have gone past all my dates lol, but it will be on this year. I will have the manifold done in a week or so hopefully. Workin on this in college is harder than last year, but its still comin along ;)
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Good deal bud :) i'll be here watchin for it! If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know!
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Sounds wonderful, but I need an A/C. I wonder how hard it would be to move the a/c lines as stated previously...
Chris
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I don't think it would be too hard to move the lines, obv. you will have to refill the ac though
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I want it just like this guys :P
He said something about selling them for 300.... that might be pounds though since hes from the uk.
Im sure there isnt too much difference between the s14 and the m42 on the exhaust side.
http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16905
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a lot has happened since m42 went down, but we are prob going to have a guy that does race development for porsche/bmw weld these up for us. I'm working on a design in 3dsmax but its not done yet. Here is the rough model
What do you guys think?
(http://i14.tinypic.com/4bixkjd.jpg)
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I think the answer we have all been looking for has just showed up.
Go take a look at 666fabrications website in the turbo manifold section, m42 manifold coming soon. :D
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w/ a $750 price tag he can forget it. I doubt he will sell more than 5
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If the build quality is as good as the other manifolds on his sight it seems to be about on par with the stuff full-race is doing for the import crowd. You cant touch one of their manifolds for less then 1099, and they sell a lot more then 666 ever will.
750 to me is a decent price for a tubular one off manifold.
I cant wait to take a trip up there and see what he's got so far.
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Here is a good cheap alternative. Got to ebay and look at the E36 turbo manifold. The last three ports are on one supply pipe and the front three are on individual pipes to the collector. If you modify the last three ports for cyl.s 4 5 and 6 you can use it on an M42 and it would place the turbo in a good spot. These manifolds are around 200 dollars all day long and are stainless. You just need some one that can weld stainless which is not imposible. If you dont cut these last three ports off of the flange and then modify the pipes you will keep the same bore spacing as well. Then after you get the whole thing welded cut the flange between the individual cylinders to allow for expansion of the stainless steel which expands far more than mild steel. Oh ya did I mention they are cheap. You can also find chinese made T3 turbos for under 200 dollars all day long as well.
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well dang nice find, is the spacing and size of the holes in the flange of the m50 and m42 the same? So all we need to do it remove the last two pipes and clean up the last pipe where we take off the other pipes? And it will just bolt up?
I have a guy up here that has a tig and could do this for us. So we could do a GB or something....
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M50 and the M42 are the same bore spacing and the same exhaust ports.
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Cool deal!! Thanks for bringing this to my attention Dino. I'll contact them and see if they want to help us out. I know that SSautochrome is in NC and I'm pretty sure that XS is the same brand or people. If they are then I could pick up some for everyone!!
edit: it looks like SSautochrome has the same manifold but only sold as kits, but I contacted them anyway. I'll let you guys know when I hear back from them. Cross your fingers everyone!!!1!
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edit: it looks like SSautochrome has the same manifold but only sold as kits, but I contacted them anyway. I'll let you guys know when I hear back from them. Cross your fingers everyone!!!1!
You can forget about SSautochrome. If you do a search, you'll hear numerous horror stories on their products. Myself included.
Basically, they have poor QA and tolerances and a lot of their items have to be modified to fit.
Of course they could've changed and improved since then but highly doubtful since they are more a quantity based company and not so concerned about quality.
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They used to be horrible, but they have improved a lot if you search on forums. Their quality has gotten a ton better and they are actually a good company now. But if they want to do this then I am going to take my car down there are we will test fit it to my car so there shouldn't be any probs.
I took that pic and PSed the end off, it was just a 2min job to get an idea of how it would look...
(http://i12.tinypic.com/4htmek5.jpg)
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Sorry, we do not do custom orders. Thank you for your inquiry.
Please visit us on the web at
http://www.ssautochrome.com & http://www.xs-power.com. SW
well they returned my email pretty quick but I sent them one asking if they would be interested in doing a GB. Even if they don't $200 isn't bad. It wouldn't be hard to mod one of those to fit.
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Oh shit, ssautochrome!
I remember hearing horror stories about them when I was on the dsm forums and yahoo groups a few years ago.
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yeah they have deff increased their quality. I know a guy up here in Boone w/ a manifold from them and it looks great. He hasn't had any probs w/ it.
But idk I have a spare m42 manifold here and it doesn't look too hard to make it like their $250 manifold. Now if we modded the stock ones to fit they won't be all shinny unless someone took the time to polish them, but it would be even cheaper.
What do you guys think...buy one of those new ones on ebay and mod them to fit or use the stock one and mod it to fit? lol too many options
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Personally, if we can work something out with SSautochrome and get 4cylinder manifold made, that would be the least hassle. I don't so much care about the polished bling if it will bring down the cost. I will probably end up thermo wrapping it anyways.
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these are made in taiwan or china in a mass production facility. So to ask for a few special aplications manifolds may not work. If they would see selling 100plus, then there may be hope. Just my 2 cents.
I would rather make a weld el mild steel manifold with schedule 40 bends and just mig the thing. this is along the lines of a log manifold but I would joint cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 then y the two branches at the turbo flange. this is how Lotus pipes there 400hp GT3 esprite. I would guess what works for them will work for me. They dont use weld els though, thought I would clearify that point.
Although I did bring up the use of the M5x turbo manifold, my one concern would be the weight of the turbo bouncing around on this manifold. This is why I would use the schedule 40 weld els. the mild steel would not expand as much as the SS and it would have a better chance of supporting the weight of the turbo.
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yeah I am going to weld supports no matter what I end up using. They don't hurt and can save the manifold ;)