M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: kurtf114 on November 27, 2008, 05:02:38 PM
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Well on bimmerforums this is a big thing to do for the 6 cyl's. But can we do this to our m42's? Better yet, is it worth it? Any power gain?
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Not having that fan runing will shorten the life of the engine and any components near the engine... The electric fan will not push the air needed to move hot air from the engine bay and out the bottom of the bay... If you remove that air blocking electric fan that I hate so much your engine will actulay run cooler and more efficiently with just the clutch fan working and extend the life of the alternator... 1-3hp is not worth it
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Take it off and wire up an electric fan.
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I got another question too. I saw this
Adjust the cam timing - You know how on the E30 M3 you have to buy a $300 kit with adjustable cam sprockets to tune your cam timing? Not on the 318iS! The M42 is equipped with tunable cam sprockets from the factory. So pull your Cosmoline covered valve cover off and with the proper tools you can tweak your intake and exhaust cams up to 6 degrees +/- to provide more top end horsepower or more low end torque. See, you don’t have to blow a grand on a set of Schrick cams to make your M42’s cams a little hotter. The best setup is to adjust the intake cam to 5 degrees (advanced) and leave the exhaust cam alone. I would recommend having a shop do this work.
And was wondering if anyone has done it? I race motocross and I have done basically the same thing to my race motor. But I was wondering if any did it, and does it work with the e36 m42?
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Well on bimmerforums this is a big thing to do for the 6 cyl's. But can we do this to our m42's? Better yet, is it worth it? Any power gain?
Yes a lot of us have. Search button reveals all.
Not having that fan runing will shorten the life of the engine and any components near the engine... The electric fan will not push the air needed to move hot air from the engine bay and out the bottom of the bay... If you remove that air blocking electric fan that I hate so much your engine will actulay run cooler and more efficiently with just the clutch fan working and extend the life of the alternator... 1-3hp is not worth it
BULL ****
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I'm with tjts1, I've done the volvo fan conversion and it works fine. The fan adequately cools the engine and my temps are more solid than they were with the stock setup.
If you understand coolant, thermostats and radiator systems you'll realize this conversion is no different than any other new car setup. It's just getting rid of the old school clutch fan and replacing it with an electric one...
Also, any time you take off an accessory that runs off the crank you are "freeing up" horsepower. Can you feel it? Still not sold on it but a dyno is the only way to tell.
And to the question of adjustable cam gears: Yes, the M42 cams have elliptical holes so that you can time it advanced or retarded from factory setting. The ideal rnage has been thoroughly tested and dyno'ed and it's been suggested to let a pro do this on a dyno for accurate results. Search will reveal the info as it was written in the GRM magazine article.
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Yes a lot of us have. Search button reveals all.
BULL ****[/QUOTE
Been tested with engine bay thermometer... I dont have the Notes anymore but I remember the difffrence was hudge at idle... Just thought I would share my findings and by the way test was done on e36 not e30 so there could be major diffrences ... thanks
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I got another question too. I saw this
And was wondering if anyone has done it? I race motocross and I have done basically the same thing to my race motor. But I was wondering if any did it, and does it work with the e36 m42?
it just sets the power band higher up...no point in doing it, the factory setting is best.
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I've done it on a few E36, such as 1996 328 / 1996 M3 (http://www.automotiveperformanceparts.net/bmw-performance-parts-3/) and be honest its not going to give you more HP, perhaps, maybe may allow your engine to rev up faster... but if the clutch is working fine, it really don't put too much drag on your engine.
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I havent done it to mine but i have delt with it on other cars and ive seen them go out of timming and cause more problems. i do belive if done properly you can gain from it. On my car i put a aditional small electric fan in that i have riged to a switch so when romping on the car or stuck in traffic for a wile i can cool the motor down when ever. I have a temp gauge in the motor so see how hot the bay is and when i turn it on it drops it about 30+ degrees at a idle, about 15-20 degrees in daily slower driving and have found that at highway speeds it dose not acompish much. but its a eazy way to cool down
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I did the FDM almost a year ago. It is very easy to do it on E36 that have A/C, all you need is new temperature switch part no: 61318361787, and new electric fan part no: 64508372039
Everything is plug and play:
1. replace the thermoswitch
2. remove mechanical fan and shroud and fit the new fan (it fits perfectly), remove the aux fan (the one in the front of the radiator) because it will not be needed anymore and plug the aux fan connector into the new fan.
See pic before and after:
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4571/inaintesiduparesizeiv8.jpg)
The power improvements are very low, noticeable only on partial loads - it seems that the engine revs freer than before.
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it just sets the power band higher up...no point in doing it, the factory setting is best.
absolutely wrong.
i did the following to my car all on a friday evening:
-removed clutch fan
-installed e36 fan in front of radiator, wired to factory aux-fan circuit with a 30A fuse
-installed new valance with bar across center hole deleted, cut and tucked the shroud under the bottom
pics:
(http://alceria.net/dk/pics/e30/nofan.jpg)
(http://alceria.net/dk/pics/e30/newfan.jpg)
(http://alceria.net/dk/pics/e30/inside.jpg)
during normal driving the temp gauge now stays at 3/8 instead of the 1/2 mark, which means it is getting better cooling from ambient air. given that the clutch fan doesn't engage until the engine is hotter than that anyway, this is a good thing.
performance increase was comparable to removing the power steering; there is more power everywhere, which is exactly what you'd expect from getting rid of a driven accessory. i have no idea why someone would think this modification would shift the powerband... anyone who's put underdrive pulleys on a car will know what it is really like.
i've only had the temp gauge cross over the halfway mark once, when i was stuck in traffic for an hour... pushing the AC button to turn the fan on immediately took temps back below the halfway mark.
the gains are incremental, but if you make a weekend project of getting rid of power steering, air conditioning, and the electric fan, you will love the newfound acceleration, and you'll get a few more miles out of each tank of gas as well.
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i think he ment tweaking the intake cam gear.
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ok... well i thought we were talking about redoing the fan setup.
at any rate, stu mchenry has thoughts on what to do with cam timing here: http://www.r3vlimited.com/tech/318is/318is.htm and given his experience i know who i'd listen to.
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deekay
Very nice setup. It looks like you also removed the AC? Do you think the pusher fan would fit with the AC condenser still in place? The E36 fan is identical to the volvo puller fan only backwards.
thanks
Justin
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i *think* you could do it with the condenser still in place, but i can't say for sure.
the motor on the fan protruded out past the mounting surface, so i had to make standoffs about 1" long to keep it from interfering with the radiator. i think the condenser about 1" thick also, correct? the fan was a tight fit, and was pretty much wedged in top-to-bottom also... sorry i don't have better info here, but i had my mechanic remove all AC forward of the firewall while i was deployed to iraq so i never saw the stuff in the car.
at any rate, i used to live in seattle. you don't need AC in washington. ditch it and then you know it'll fit! ;)
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none of mine hae had a/c for the past 7 years. i dont think my 77 '02 came with a/c. i didnt put the compressor back in my dd last summer. ive got a bit older now and the a/c is nice between stops here in the nor'east with out 100% humidity summers haha
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Hi guys, is there a way to wire up the electric fan the way that cristimm did above if your car doesnt have A/C? Ive got a 1992 E36 318is M42 and got the correct electric fan but my radiator doesnt have a space for the temperature switch because it doesnt have A/C, just the clutch fan. Any help would be great!
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ok... well i thought we were talking about redoing the fan setup.
at any rate, stu mchenry has thoughts on what to do with cam timing here: http://www.r3vlimited.com/tech/318is/318is.htm and given his experience i know who i'd listen to.
does this relate to the E36 aswell? or was the change in HP between the E30 and E36 M42 because of the tweaks that Stu mentioned?
also, does anyone know if the E36 318iS has the Dual Mass flywheel or Single Mass?
Cheers,
Jester
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A/C models have the dual-mass flywheel and non A/C have the single mass.
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I did the FDM almost a year ago. It is very easy to do it on E36 that have A/C, all you need is new temperature switch part no: 61318361787, and new electric fan part no: 64508372039
Everything is plug and play:
1. replace the thermoswitch
2. remove mechanical fan and shroud and fit the new fan (it fits perfectly), remove the aux fan (the one in the front of the radiator) because it will not be needed anymore and plug the aux fan connector into the new fan.
See pic before and after:
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4571/inaintesiduparesizeiv8.jpg)
The power improvements are very low, noticeable only on partial loads - it seems that the engine revs freer than before.
Where do you put the new tempurature sensor? And can AC still be used
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I think he's using the original fanstat in the right side of the radiator, with the new fan plugged into the stock wiring harness.
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That's right.
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all you need is new temperature switch part no: 61318361787
I am talking in reference to this Switch stated above. where does this one go and what is the reasoning for replacing this?
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I thought it was a replacement for the stock sensor in the side of the radiator, right?
I'd figure that it cuts the fan on a bit earlier to compensate for the clutch fan.
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Would be a good idea. better peace of mind to keep things cooler. so are the sensor and fan from the hatchback TI e36 model? using the M44?
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It replaces the stock dual-temp termoswitch screwed into the right side of the radiator. It's far cooler than the stock 91/99 degC unit (61311378073). I'm not sure all M42's used the high-temp switch, many cars may have the cooler one installed already. I'd figure mechanics have also used the lower temp switch to repair mildly overheating motors.
I'm guessing the only reason is just to turn the fan on a bit earlier. With the engine driven fan missing I'll bet it keeps the temperature pretty consistent. Most importantly, it keeps everything pretty much stock, so the A/C can still turn on the fan at low speed.
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it keeps everything pretty much stock, so the A/C can still turn on the fan at low speed.
I like that, that was another concern i had. i will eventually get around to buying a new ac compressor, since i still have all of the components hooked up for the ac system. So when i turn on the ac it should still be running the fan full time correct?
I know most ac systems run the fan at all times when the ac is running, to cool the condenser.
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Yeah, that's right. The A/C switch turns the fan on low speed. It's a nice, clean install. The only worry I'd have is that the fuse might be slightly undersized.
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I have a e36 now with a blown motor, and i have a few questions.
My engine is a factory m42, with a Viscus fan, and on the last rally, a branch has gone threw the bumper, smashed the VF housing, knocked the rad off its mount, and stopped the VF from turning.
Now, when we got to the end of the section, we stopped for about 2 mins and i heard steam escaping somewhere so i checked the temp guage and everything was ok. I kept checking the guage on the way to the finish and it went onto 3, then stopped.
The engine now has no compression, and is dead but when i checked the guage it was still at normal.
So i want to do this conversion, and i need some info on what to do.
So i have a new rad and electric fan like shown above, i think its off a 328 but im not sure. The sensor on the side of the rad is the one for the turning the fan on? That is what i see said before.
Also, as my motor died really due to the sensors not picking up the temp letting me know to stop teh car, is there any other place to mount the sensor for the guage? Is the sensor for the fan ina good place too?
I heard of a low water sensor on some cars too, is that right?
thanks!
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I removed the factory clutch fan and installed a 1850cfm aftermarket fan last wkend. I am using the same relay and fuse protected circuit as the factory elect fan did. As for the temp fan sensor its brand new but I have not pluggrd it in yet as I want to see what type of temps would be maintained by using the thermostst to control the engine coolant temps with this fan on always. So far I have a very stable mid point guage reading, never going past midpoint and 90/95% of the time just ever so slightly to the left side of the midpoint mark. Im happy with this.
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I've never heard of a low coolant warning sensor. There isn't a sender for it on the car and I'm not sure how we'd engineer something like that. I'm pretty sure all our e30 M42's were never intended to have a low oil or windshield washer fluid indicator like the M20's check control did...they took all that out for the M42.
The radiator fanstat switch is also in a very good place, on the hot side of the radiator it will react to changes fairly quickly. Most BMWs have it in the exact same spot. It does control the aux fan in front of the rad. I'd advise testing it...if I recall correctly:
1. Turn the key to position 1
2. Make a short length of 14-ish gauge wire into a jumper by stripping both ends
3. Pull the plug off the switch and short the black/red wire socket to the green ground socket. The fan should turn on low speed.
4. Pull the jumper out of the black/red and put it into the black socket. The fan should spin at high speed.
The two coolant temp sensors on the side of the head are in the best position IMHO. They sit high on the head, so if you develop a bubble or the thermostat fails closed you'll see the temp sensor move quickly. The cluster sender might have been bad, and even if it is good, the gauge is designed to sit in the middle most of the time. It's "buffered" so that it looks kosher when in fact it might be ready to pop the gasket. The gauge is scaled so that it tends to stay in the middle...I've heard some BMW guys figured that the middle mark by itself was about a 20 degF range.
The fuel gauge is the same way, at least in US cars. 3/4 tank to 1/4 tank is nearly all of the gauge sweep, so psychologically most people feel that it gets better mileage.
In fact, BMW made two production changes on the e30. You'd figure they'd make the gauge more accurate, right? Maybe enable the high temp warning light? Nope. They put a bypass in the heater hoses to prevent overpressure from rupturing the heater core (not fun, I've had it happen to me on my old VW). Then they found the profile gasket failure and replaced a bunch of engines. They didn't fix the worst problems though...the plastic pump impellers, the cheap radiators or the too-thin head casting.
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I thought it was a replacement for the stock sensor in the side of the radiator, right?
I'd figure that it cuts the fan on a bit earlier to compensate for the clutch fan.
Exactly. I recommend the lower temp switch for any bmw fan delete or not.
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The low coolant sensor is something that came on the e34. There is a little float screwed to the bottom of the coolant resevoir.
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Got the parts.
Just completed the install of the new fan switch and fan relocation as well as the clutched manual fan delete.
Well now that i got the bugs worked out, it is working flawlessly. I love it. This is by far the easiest modification i have ever done. I now have tons of room for my large heat exchanger in the front bumper.
I do not know why, but after i installed everything, i could not get the fan to switch on by itself. I checked all fuses and they were good.
I ended up jumping the cable to test the fan and both hi and low worked great. I then took the old fan switch and put a lighter to the sensor part to heat it up. It worked automatically on both hi and low. Realized my coolant was a little low, so i filled it up and plugged the new switch in, and viola. She works perfect.
So one thing i have learned is. Even though the coolant is not dangerously low enough to make the car overheat itself, the high positioning of the switch on the radiator can cause it to not get reading, if your coolant is slightly low. This is a little unfortunate.
Thanks for the great idea! and for those that want to know. the part numbers listed a few posts back are the correct part numbers, so order away.
(This was on a 1993 E36 318is with AC)
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For those who are still on the fence about this, i would like to confirm on last thing.
This new fan setup performed flawlessly, while sitting in stopped traffic for 1 hour yesterday. No signs of it trying to get hot.
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A cool M42 is a happy M42. I learned this the hard way!!!!!!
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I've been reading through the various fan delete mod postings and am considering doing this on my '91 E30 318i, similar to those done by cristimm and deekay a few years back.
I'm sick of hearing the howling clutch fan and my goal is to replace it with an electric one from the E36 318 (p/n: 64508372039) plugged into the cars' a/c fan harness, along with the 80/88 degree temp switch (p/n: 61318361787). From what I've read, this seems to be the hot setup ....actually I guess it's the cool setup!
What I haven't been able to find is if anyone has done this and is still running a/c, and if this single electric fan will provide sufficient engine and a/c condenser cooling. Most folks indicate that they've ripped the a/c out of the car but I'm keeping mine and want to be sure the fan mod will work. Sorry if this has already been addressed but I couldn't find any posts about it.
Thanks