M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: KidneyBoy on October 20, 2008, 09:11:17 AM
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Looking to build up a spare motor for next seasons autocross into a 2.0L motor.
If i recall correctly, you can use the 1.9L crank from an M44, and euro s50 pistons. What i dont know is what headgasket to use, and if there is any other modifications nessisary to make it all work [i.e. shave the s50 pistons?]
Once i get this thing rolling, ill be sure to post up the build on here to keep a record of it.
Thanks
Joe
And for helping me, heres the M42 hard at work:
(http://www.r3vlimited.com/gallery/files/1/1/0/4/7/5_18_08c.jpg)
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Hi there, well, first of all, let me ask you wt is your budget, because starting with that, we can consider what changes to do.
If you drop in the M44 crank (83,5mm) and S50 pistons (86mm), you would end up with "only" 1929cc, that´s far from your limit...
Using S52 pistons (86,4mm) would push you up to 1947cc, still not there...
But using the allmighty M47 crankshaft (pricey, but worth it) along with stock M44 (85mm) pistons, would put you on 1997cc, that looks much better, you would only need to shave the pistons 2,5mm, and your deck height would be set at "0" and CR would be 10,8:1.
Much more torque from the bottom, and nice and good compression ratio.
Cost? Well, If I were you, I would look for a full M44 spare engine, so you don´t have to look out for M44 pistons, and you wouldn´t have to bore out the block to fit the M44 pistons.
So a nice and clean M44 engine should cost no more than $400-$500.
I bought my used M47 crank off ebay for $500, shaving pistons should cost no more than $80. balance all together about $80, and rebuild gaskets, bearings etc... $300.
All adds up to $1500, decent price for a nice 2.0L motor with huge potential.
If you have some extra cash after this, drop in a set of S50 inline throttle bodies (only 4 of course...) I bought my set for $300 on ebay, and is a pretty much straight fit (minor work involved...) on our cylinder head.
This is just my thinking, someone else is very welcome to bring in more ideas or discuss my opinion.
I hope to have helped you kidneyboy.
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Helps very much!
Option 1: 1929cc
M44 Crank
S50 Pistons
Option 2: 1947cc
M44 Crank
S52 Pistons
Option 3: 1997cc
M47 crank
M44 Pistons shaved 2.5mm
Ive looked for an M47 crank for a long time. They are hard to find in the states, looks like you have had better luck overseas. If you know of another one, please let me know. The reason i was looking for the M44 crank was simply for ease of finding the damn parts!
Anyway to run M47 crank, with shaved S52 pistons? Assuming the M47 crank is 87.9mm stroke, with S52 pistons of 86.4mm then the displacement would be roughly 2061cc?
Still, what headgasket is used?
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Helps very much!
Option 1: 1929cc
M44 Crank
S50 Pistons
Option 2: 1947cc
M44 Crank
S52 Pistons
Option 3: 1997cc
M47 crank
M44 Pistons shaved 2.5mm
Ive looked for an M47 crank for a long time. They are hard to find in the states, looks like you have had better luck overseas. If you know of another one, please let me know. The reason i was looking for the M44 crank was simply for ease of finding the damn parts!
Anyway to run M47 crank, with shaved S52 pistons? Assuming the M47 crank is 87.9mm stroke, with S52 pistons of 86.4mm then the displacement would be roughly 2061cc?
Still, what headgasket is used?
Just turbo the damn thing already, you know you want it.
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Still, what headgasket is used?
im new to this, but i am assuming if your stroke is designed not to slap the valves, you would go with a MLS and a 86.4mm gasket if your going with the s52, correct?
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I am also in the process of building up a 2.0L M42 motor. I am now sourcing for parts. 1st on the list is the M47 crankshaft.
Intention is to bore it up to 86mm and using metric mechanic pistons and rods and then supercharge it.
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If your going to supercharge then just supercharge it geeze
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Helps very much!
Option 1: 1929cc
M44 Crank
S50 Pistons
Option 2: 1947cc
M44 Crank
S52 Pistons
Option 3: 1997cc
M47 crank
M44 Pistons shaved 2.5mm
Ive looked for an M47 crank for a long time. They are hard to find in the states, looks like you have had better luck overseas. If you know of another one, please let me know. The reason i was looking for the M44 crank was simply for ease of finding the damn parts!
Anyway to run M47 crank, with shaved S52 pistons? Assuming the M47 crank is 87.9mm stroke, with S52 pistons of 86.4mm then the displacement would be roughly 2061cc?
Still, what headgasket is used?
The M47 has 88mm stroke. It can be bought directly in a BMW dealer, but prepare $1000.
This crank is from a diesel engine, so not likely to be found on the states.
Look on ebay germany, I bought mine there, and the guy would ship worldwide. Right now the Euro/dollar is pretty high, so an M47 crank for €500, would really be about $750 plus shipping to the states (at least another $150), so if I were you and interested on an M47 crank, go and buy a new one.
With S52 pistons the displacement is 2064cc
I have heard good and bad things about MLS gaskets, cometic doesn´t build them in 87mm,only 85, and 86mm. Metric mechanic shave a little bit of the corner of the top of the piston so it doesn´t hit the gasket at TDC
On my engine (S52 86,4mm) I used the stock M44 gasket being 86mm, at the edge of the cilinder hole, the gasket is rounded, so really where it seals with the block, it really makes a little more, maybe 86,5mm. so I´m safe there(anyways my deck height is 0)
The engine runs perfect and has perfect compression on all 4 cylinders.
For the guys talking about turbo:
If this guy is talking about running on some kind of competition, with a rulebook, limiting the engine to 2.0L, I doubt turbos would be permitted on the same category...
Of course a turbo would give him at least 300hp, and he would be interested on putting a turbo, I would have said so...
Good luck!
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The M47 has 88mm stroke. It can be bought directly in a BMW dealer, but prepare $1000.
This crank is from a diesel engine, so not likely to be found on the states.
Look on ebay germany, I bought mine there, and the guy would ship worldwide. Right now the Euro/dollar is pretty high, so an M47 crank for €500, would really be about $750 plus shipping to the states (at least another $150), so if I were you and interested on an M47 crank, go and buy a new one.
With S52 pistons the displacement is 2064cc
I have heard good and bad things about MLS gaskets, cometic doesn´t build them in 87mm,only 85, and 86mm. Metric mechanic shave a little bit of the corner of the top of the piston so it doesn´t hit the gasket at TDC
On my engine (S52 86,4mm) I used the stock M44 gasket being 86mm, at the edge of the cilinder hole, the gasket is rounded, so really where it seals with the block, it really makes a little more, maybe 86,5mm. so I´m safe there(anyways my deck height is 0)
The engine runs perfect and has perfect compression on all 4 cylinders.
For the guys talking about turbo:
If this guy is talking about running on some kind of competition, with a rulebook, limiting the engine to 2.0L, I doubt turbos would be permitted on the same category...
Of course a turbo would give him at least 300hp, and he would be interested on putting a turbo, I would have said so...
Good luck!
Hi! Could you share about what are the parts you have used to build your motor?
Thanks!
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I am so glad that someone posted something on here that didn't involve a turbo. Thank you so much, I thought we were being invaded by Honda kids that got their hands on a BMW and want to put a fart can and a turbo on everything. Check out the thread on my build with m44 crank rods and pistons in an m42 block that came out to 1917cc. here (http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3523) if you want to know anything in particular about the build process or any specs or prices, just post it or shoot me a PM.
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the crank is like 750 with bearings from bma auto parts
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Yea im with u 1991 E30 M42. I hate it when you see some riced-up BMW and to top it off the loser cant even drive. Not that im saying tuning a BMW is bad. Just ricing 1 is. Anyway! Ive attempted to do this aswell. but the engine had cooling problems and blow in its first test. I sort of did something like that 3rd opion that was listed. but i got a crank custom made.
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Hi! Could you share about what are the parts you have used to build your motor?
Thanks!
I have used:
-M42 E36 block
-M47 crank
-S52 pistons
-M42 E30 rods
-M42 E30 head,fully rebuilt,shaved 0,2mm, fully ported, 6mm valves, MM bee-hive springs, MM retainers and shims
-Schrick camshafts
-Schrick lightened hydraulic lifters
-MM heavy duty, trimetal, teflon coated rod bearings
-MM 360º main bearings
-MM head bolts
-E36 M44 86mm headgasket (thicker than stock)
-All new chain, guides, E36 tensioner, gaskets.
-E36 Serpentine belt system
In progress:
-E36 M3 (S50)inline throttle bodies
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I have used:
-M42 E36 block
-M47 crank
-S52 pistons
-M42 E30 rods
-M42 E30 head,fully rebuilt,shaved 0,2mm, fully ported, 6mm valves, MM bee-hive springs, MM retainers and shims
-Schrick camshafts
-Schrick lightened hydraulic lifters
-MM heavy duty, trimetal, teflon coated rod bearings
-MM 360º main bearings
-MM head bolts
-E36 M44 86mm headgasket (thicker than stock)
-All new chain, guides, E36 tensioner, gaskets.
-E36 Serpentine belt system
In progress:
-E36 M3 (S50)inline throttle bodies
Nice. When you ordered your MM stuff, did you consider using their single row timing chain? I'm trying to find out if they even sell it separate from one of their built engines.
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Nice. When you ordered your MM stuff, did you consider using their single row timing chain? I'm trying to find out if they even sell it separate from one of their built engines.
Yes I did consider it, MM says they trust more the single chain setup than the double chain. At this point of build up, where I push so much an engine, I trust more the strength of double chains. Yes, sure is heavier, but In terms of horspower gains, I would say 0hp is an aproximate gain with the single chain. Sure it will rev faster because of rotating mass and all that, but I built my engine for low end torque and power, so I´m not to worried about that.
For high revving, racing engines, it would be a great upgrade, but to me, not worth the extra $200.
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I am so glad that someone posted something on here that didn't involve a turbo. Thank you so much, I thought we were being invaded by Honda kids that got their hands on a BMW and want to put a fart can and a turbo on everything. Check out the thread on my build with m44 crank rods and pistons in an m42 block that came out to 1917cc. here (http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3523) if you want to know anything in particular about the build process or any specs or prices, just post it or shoot me a PM.
Any idea how much power your making? I want to get up to the 180hp range, without going too overboard.
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on what kind of dyno? mustang or dynojet , dynojets are what most people use because they give higher numbers and make their customers happy, mustang dynos are more accurate and always give lower numbers
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I'm planning on building a 2L M44 using an M47 crank at some point, it might end up getting turboed (would seem silly not to, seeing as it'll be on megasquirt anyway). I'll then drop it into my touring, should be nice and different with shed loads of torque :D. It's a long way off, and I might change my mind (again) and finally give into the 6 pots, or another 4 pot turbo (something Swedish ;))
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what about engine management for these 3 options?
i'd be looking to bore or stroke my engine too when it comes the time for a rebuild but the high prices of fuel and spark management like the megasquirt is a worry. is there a a chance that an option would work with a simple chip?
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I dont see why it wouldnt work with stock management. the TDC and valve timing does not change. The only thin i could see would be larger injectors and a RRFPR [rising rate fuel pressure regulator]
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what would the compression ratio be with the s50 piston m44 crank combo, also is there a combo out there that would drop compression.
I wonder what a 135mm ETA rod would do. I'm used to m20's and new to the 4 pots so could someone fill me in on this if you dont mind.
By the way, I've never owned a Honda but I own a turboed M42 E30 project.
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Hi! Any idea what conrods and pistons can I use for the 88mm diesel crank? I am planning for a boosted M42 using the M47 crank but not sure what combination of pistons and con rods I could use. I am trying to hit a compression of around 9-10:1 and running 1bar on the supercharger (using an Eaton M90).
I am aware of MM parts but they are rather pricey. Thus looking for other brands like Wossner, Arrow, Wiseco etc.
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someone needs to do a sticky on this forum with all the specs to keep repeats of the same questions down.
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People, please do a little research, I know its easier to ask first, but, it gets a little annoying to answer the same questions all the time...
Anyways, With the M47 crank, you can use M40 rods(135mm), S52 rods(135mm), M42 rods (140mm), M44 rods (140mm), maybe rods from M50, but not sure on this one...the stock pistons sit 0,15mm above block deck(TDC). and yield 10:1 CR,
With the M47 crank, and same rod lenght(140mm) and same piston (stock M42), the piston would be 3,65mm above deck (Impossible to work, would have to be shaved at least 3,5mm), shaved to 0 deck height would have 10,6:1 CR
With 135mm rod,M42 piston, and no shaving, the piston would be about 1,35mm below deck and 9,3:1 CR but only with 1951cc.
With 135mm rod, S52 piston(86,4mm) and no shaving, the piston would be 1,35mm below deck, 9,8 CR, and 2064cc.
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what would the compression ratio be with the s50 piston m44 crank combo, also is there a combo out there that would drop compression.
I wonder what a 135mm ETA rod would do. I'm used to m20's and new to the 4 pots so could someone fill me in on this if you dont mind.
By the way, I've never owned a Honda but I own a turboed M42 E30 project.
S50 piston (86mm) and M44 crank(83mm), and stock 140mm rod,the piston would have to be shaved because it would be above block deck too much, so with 0 deck height, the CR would be 10,5:1, and 1929cc.
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Is there a difference when compared M40B18 (European 318I) rod lenght to M42B18 (318IS) to each other? Is that M40 rod lenght you mentioned 316I M40 rod lenght or 318I M40 one?
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12/19/08
NEW M47 crank on the way [$840 + shipping]
Have 3, yes 3, S52 pistons and 4 s52 rods. [blown up motor at a friends shop]
Pics to come once i get moving. My spare m42 is still all together.
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I have two spare S52 pistons... they come from a blown engine as well, but they can be used, 22mm piston pin. 86.4mm bore.
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Is there a difference when compared M40B18 (European 318I) rod lenght to M42B18 (318IS) to each other? Is that M40 rod lenght you mentioned 316I M40 rod lenght or 318I M40 one?
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7099
Here is a great thread about the rod lengths.
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12/19/08
NEW M47 crank on the way [$840 + shipping]
Have 3, yes 3, S52 pistons and 4 s52 rods. [blown up motor at a friends shop]
Pics to come once i get moving. My spare m42 is still all together.
Great to know that your crank in on its way!!
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Got the crank and s52 pistons. Now ive got to save up for other parts... ugh
(http://www.r3vlimited.com/gallery/files/1/1/0/4/7/dsc_0005_1.jpg)
(http://www.r3vlimited.com/gallery/files/1/1/0/4/7/dsc_0007_1.jpg)
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Out of which M47 engine comes your crank and why?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M47#M47TU2D20
I a way I already own this but it would leave my E87 useless, unless it takes a M42 crank...
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M47 with part number 11212247514
Its 88mm stroke. the crank stub is the propper length. the OD needs turned down and a new keyway needs put in at the correct location.
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M47 with part number 11212247514
Its 88mm stroke. the crank stub is the propper length. the OD needs turned down and a new keyway needs put in at the correct location.
excellent info!
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BTW, you'll need to get another woodruff key cut into the crank.
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What kind of revs are possible with the longer stroke? same as M42 STD with chip?
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man.. my local bmw dealer asks 1300$ for a new m47 crank! :eek:
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Can you still rev this setup to say 7500rpms with the much longer piston travel? Also how strong are the m3 pistons after cutting the deck by a couple of mm's?
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Which rod and piston lengths/sizes would I want for a 8.5 CR motor?
Using a M47 crank? do these have stock bearing size?
Head gasket thickness?
Sorry to use your thread. Cant wait to see the motor done.
M47 crank is the way to go.
Hunter
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What happens if you use M44 crank with M42B18 pistons?
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Bunta, if you use S52 pistons(86,4mm) and M47 crank with 135mm rods(stock S52 rods), you shave the pistons to leave them 3mm below deck(you would have to shave about 1-2mm) you would end up with 2064cc, and 8,5:1CR.
Bearings have the same size between S52 and M42 and M47.
head gasket? stock M44 86mm bore.
Ivan petrov, you would have 1862cc, but you would need to shave the pistons, because M44 crank would leave the piston 1,5mm above deck, this would destroy the head, piston, rod, or all of them... you need to have the piston 0,15mm above deck maximum.with 0,15mm above deck, CR would be 10,3:1
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which m47 crank are you talking about when your making your calculations?
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which m47 crank are you talking about when your making your calculations?
Me? M47 88mm
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Helps very much!
Option 1: 1929cc
M44 Crank
S50 Pistons
Option 2: 1947cc
M44 Crank
S52 Pistons
Option 3: 1997cc
M47 crank
M44 Pistons shaved 2.5mm
Are these calculations based on the M42 con rods?
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Very interested in the thread...
keep me posted on ur progress KidneyBoy
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I have used:
-M42 E36 block
-M47 crank
-S52 pistons
-M42 E30 rods
-M42 E30 head,fully rebuilt,shaved 0,2mm, fully ported, 6mm valves, MM bee-hive springs, MM retainers and shims
-Schrick camshafts
-Schrick lightened hydraulic lifters
-MM heavy duty, trimetal, teflon coated rod bearings
-MM 360º main bearings
-MM head bolts
-E36 M44 86mm headgasket (thicker than stock)
-All new chain, guides, E36 tensioner, gaskets.
-E36 Serpentine belt system
u've just used second hand S52 pistons correct? would it be better to get them custom made at the right compression instead of getting them decked?
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I don't get it? How come m47 crank gains such that big deal :confused:
any elaboration please ;)
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i think it's because of the stroke being larger from the M47 crank to the M42 or M44 crank. couple that with rods and pistons from an S52 and you got a pretty sweet setup...hope to do it myself one day...
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I don't get it? How come m47 crank gains such that big deal :confused:
any elaboration please ;)
The stroke is 8mm longer (about 10%) which will increase both displacement and torque.
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MORE INFO thinking about this project myself(INTERESTING POST)
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umm! anyone got a pic or link of the m47 crank? :confused:
What exactly does it look like? :cool:
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here is a link to a guy who is doing a 2.0L conversion
his crank is a machinged M47 crank, but it's basically the same thing
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254
hope this helps
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Holy Mother Cow! :eek:
That is an entire crankshaft! I just can’t imagine what exactly it is till ‘ve seen the picture though. No wonder for all that claims now.
Does it just direct bolt on? Any modification need? :confused:
Adore all the guys that possibly build it. :rolleyes:
Thanks for your input Jester ;)
George :cool:
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Does it just direct bolt on? Any modification need? :confused:
Please read around some more. It requires extensive modification, and ALOT of careful measuring. I hardly call a crank shaft a 'bolt on' mod...
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Please read around some more. It requires extensive modification, and ALOT of careful measuring. I hardly call a crank shaft a 'bolt on' mod...
Well! Obviously, you just gave me the right answer though :p
Thanx anyway bro for chiming in ;)
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Well! Here's one of my search :D http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433471
Well, I have finally started my project to build a replica S42B20 motor.
At this stage I was going to use the M44 crank which had an 83.5mm stroke but found out that a M47 (E46 320d) crank might fit, it did. Now I have an 88mm stroke. The nice thing about the M47 crank is it has the same dia. big-ends and main bearings as the M42/M44. And its a forged crank! With the 86mm bore and 88mm stroke its now a 2045cc motor (nearly a 2.1lt). With M3 3.2lt pistons it would be a 2069cc. I am using the M44 rods for the job, the pistons are being decked and pocketed this week, this will make 'em flat-top and raise the compression some too.
Once I get everything back from the engineers I will have the whole bottom-end fully balanced and look into that stupid harmonic damper...
...
it looks like it just bolt-on on his combination only balancing the shaft, is that true? :confused:
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Well! Here's one of my search :D http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433471
it looks like it just bolt-on on his combination only balancing the shaft, is that true? :confused:
buy the M47 crank, put side by side and compare the difference then you'll definitely know what's the difference..
It needs to be modified. no question about it.. not just buy and then straight bolt-on.. u wanna know details, search more about it.. Can go to http://www.metricmechanic.com to download the write up on M42/M44 mods..
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buy the M47 crank, put side by side and compare the difference then you'll definitely know what's the difference..
..
That was what I doubt :rolleyes:
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Nice. When you ordered your MM stuff, did you consider using their single row timing chain? I'm trying to find out if they even sell it separate from one of their built engines.
euro S38 timing chain: 11311401379
crank sprocket: 11311305396
intake sprocket: 11311305391
exhaust sprocket: 11311305392
available at http://www.ecstuning.com for around $300 i think, bmaparts.com didn't list it, can't access fap99.com from work. I think you need the correlating dowel pin and spring washer as well. check realoem.com for more details
anyone know if the s38 lifters will fit in our m42 head, or what solid lifters MM is offering in their kit?
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personally i'm trying to procure a M42 to build up...
M47 crank
86mm pistons
single row chain
deltacams regrind
valvetrain upgrade for durability/longevity
MM 360* bearings
what other engines used forged con-rods?
will m54 rods fit? (not sure on big/small end diameters)
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With 135mm rod,M42 piston, and no shaving, the piston would be about 1,35mm below deck and 9,3:1 CR but only with 1951cc.
With 135mm rod, S52 piston(86,4mm) and no shaving, the piston would be 1,35mm below deck, 9,8 CR, and 2064cc.
Hello guys I'm new to that forum, was reading some topics and I have next quiestion:
is it possible to shave 1.5 mm off the top of engine block??? in that case with 135mm rods we will have 0.15 mm above deck, and will have standard compression
is that possible or not???
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Is the S38 chain stronger and lighter, or just lighter? I know M42 chains seem to break more frequently than others.
You can get the VW solid lifters from 034 motorsport. If you want lighter hydraulic lifters you can use the hydraulic VW ones. don;t know the PNs off hand but if you search you can easily find.
The MM 360 bearings are just early M20 bearings if you want the 360º oiling groove. If you just want 360º thrust the new bearing kits include it for the M42 from places like pelican. You can also just use M50 bearings. I got PTFE coated bearings from VAC motorsport and I just requested the 360º thrust. No machining required for the M42/M50 bearings.
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I have used:
-M42 E36 block
-M47 crank
-S52 pistons
-M42 E30 rods
-M42 E30 head,fully rebuilt,shaved 0,2mm, fully ported, 6mm valves, MM bee-hive springs, MM retainers and shims
-Schrick camshafts
-Schrick lightened hydraulic lifters
-MM heavy duty, trimetal, teflon coated rod bearings
-MM 360º main bearings
-MM head bolts
-E36 M44 86mm headgasket (thicker than stock)
-All new chain, guides, E36 tensioner, gaskets.
-E36 Serpentine belt system
In progress:
-E36 M3 (S50)inline throttle bodies
would you have some building pics?
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Hello guys I'm new to that forum, was reading some topics and I have next quiestion:
is it possible to shave 1.5 mm off the top of engine block??? in that case with 135mm rods we will have 0.15 mm above deck, and will have standard compression
is that possible or not???
I calculated and in case of that we will have something about 10.5~10.6 CR, instead of standard CR 10.1.
my question again:
is there possible to shave 15mm off the to cylinder block?
P.S. in previous post I have mistake writing 1.5 mm, there should be 15mm.
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Please be more specific about what you're asking. WE have no idea what crank, piston, rods etc.. you're talking about.
Why would you want to cut 15mm of the block anyway when you can manipulate the crank throw, rod length and compression height on pistons??
As a hypothetical:M47 crank/ 138mm rods
CH = Deck - Stroke - Rod - Above Deck
30.15mm = 212mm - (88mm/2) - 138mm -.15mm*
NOW with -15mm deck height with stock crank / 135mm rods
x = 197 - 40.5 - 134.85
x = 21.65mm compression height: Not happening
With Stock 140mm rods it gets even worse.
x = 197 - 40.5 - 139.85
x= 16.65mm CH
~Ralph
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Please be more specific about what you're asking. WE have no idea what crank, piston, rods etc.. you're talking about.
Why would you want to cut 15mm of the block anyway when you can manipulate the crank throw, rod length and compression height on pistons??
As a hypothetical:M47 crank/ 138mm rods
CH = Deck - Stroke - Rod - Above Deck
30.15mm = 212mm - (88mm/2) - 138mm -.15mm*
NOW with -15mm deck height with stock crank / 135mm rods
x = 197 - 40.5 - 134.85
x = 21.65mm compression height: Not happening
With Stock 140mm rods it gets even worse.
x = 197 - 40.5 - 139.85
x= 16.65mm CH
~Ralph
sorry not for noting that:
so my idea is:
M44 Pistons,
M50 (Non Vanos) 135mm rods
m44 head gasket
m47 crank with 88 stroke.
-15 mm from cylinder block
we will get 0.15mm over deck
we get:
85*85*3.142*88=1997cc
cylinder volume ~ 499cc
head chamber volume (33cc) + M44 gasket voume(10.1cc) + M44 piston compression volume (not sure : ~ 9 cc) = 52cc
so compression
(499+52)/52=10.59 compression.
so will that configuration work?
so maybe cutting of top of block is possible but what with in case that configuration piston lower dead position will be 8.5 mm lower than standard m42 (8.5 mm = (88-81)/2 + (140-135))
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To get .15mm above deck with your calculations.
M44 has 30.4mm CH
30.4 = X-44-134.85
X = 209.25mm
You need to only cut 2.75mm off the block. I wouldn't do it. Change something else.
Why are you so persistent with wanting to cut the block?
If you do your -15mm Calcs then :
30.4 = 197-44-135 -X
30.4 = 18 - X
X = -12.4mm "above" the deck.
??? Doesn't add up.
Where are you getting your information from? Why are you using this combination of parts? I'm very confused and don't think that I can help.
I'm Sorry:-(
Can someone else chime in and clear this up?
~Ralph
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To get .15mm above deck with your calculations.
M44 has 30.4mm CH
30.4 = X-44-134.85
X = 209.25mm
You need to only cut 2.75mm off the block. I wouldn't do it. Change something else.
Why are you so persistent with wanting to cut the block?
If you do your -15mm Calcs then :
30.4 = 197-44-135 -X
30.4 = 18 - X
X = -12.4mm "above" the deck.
??? Doesn't add up.
Where are you getting your information from? Why are you using this combination of parts? I'm very confused and don't think that I can help.
I'm Sorry:-(
Can someone else chime in and clear this up?
~Ralph
Thanks Ralph for your reply, probably I had not correct M44 piston specs.
I just rechecked everything and understood that I had huge mistake, my mistake was thinking that I made mistake:( (really stupid from my side)
my calculations: standard m42 stroke is 81mm m47 stroke is 88
so in case of M42 crank and 140mm rods with M42 pistons (standard M42 engine) we have 0.15mm over deck
in case of using M47 crank, 135mm rods with m42 pistons we got:
(140-135)-(88-81)/2 -0.15 = 1.35mm below deck so to normalize to over deck (0.15), decided to cut block from top on 1.5 mm .
so in case of using M44 pistons to get 0.15 over deck will need to cut 2.75mm off block.
I chosen that parts because I can get everything used for cheap and budget of build will be quite small.
also I'm afraid about cutting off top of pistons because I'm not sure how well it will be done at machine shop. so much more simpler is to cut block. also in case of M44 pistons will need to overbore cylinders to 85.
so just 1 question why you don't recommend cutting off the top of block?
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YES! Now you're on the right track with calcs. I wouldn't cut the deck for structural purposes. I know it's not much.
I'm not sure where you live or what your availability is for parts, but if you will let your machine shop deck your block and bore it, then I think they could fly cut your pistons. Also we don't know what your budget is and where you're money is best spent. If you're going all out with a crank and rods and pistons, basically a complete rebuild with gaskets and who knows what else, I would make them work together for you somehow. Just my .02 worth.
Good luck with your decision and your build.
Cheers,
~Ralph
PS... You do have one option if you want to do some more math:-)
Figure out what your compression will be with .40mm above the deck instead of .15 with a stock M44 1.74mm HG and then with a 2.04mm HG.
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YES! Now you're on the right track with calcs. I wouldn't cut the deck for structural purposes. I know it's not much.
I'm not sure where you live or what your availability is for parts, but if you will let your machine shop deck your block and bore it, then I think they could fly cut your pistons. Also we don't know what your budget is and where you're money is best spent. If you're going all out with a crank and rods and pistons, basically a complete rebuild with gaskets and who knows what else, I would make them work together for you somehow. Just my .02 worth.
Good luck with your decision and your build.
Cheers,
~Ralph
PS... You do have one option if you want to do some more math:-)
Figure out what your compression will be with .40mm above the deck instead of .15 with a stock M44 1.74mm HG and then with a 2.04mm HG.
Thanks Ralph Again
most interesting thing is that I'm not in US :)
I'm almost on opposide side of planet :) I live in Georgia (Not US state)
so for us cutting pistons and then pocketing them for valves sounds frightening :)
so I was talking about cutting block because I have heared that some guys have done such manipulations here not sure about M42 block but they have done that on M20 and M50.
about budget that works will go below 300$ (including M47 crank, m44 pistons, M50VN or M52B28 135mm rods, with works). not mentioning price for new parts.
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mandarin,
I'm wondering if you've factored in the compression height difference between the two pistons you're considering.
The stock M42 piston has 31.65mm while the M44 piston has 30.4mm - that's a 1.25mm difference and would cause the M44 piston to be 1.25mm lower than where the stock M42 piston would be. This will lower your compression ratio.
If you're using M44 pistons, wouldn't you need to shave just 3mm instead of 2.75mm?
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Suprised that TimS hasn't been on this thread. He's got a 2.1 M42 in his E30, using an 88mm diesel crank and custom 87mm pistons by Metric Mechanic (I think, or JE). Engine is running mild cat cams, flowed head, bored TB and was on Megasquirt but also runs OK on Motronic with different injectors. Power was about 190-200bhp on the rollers and torque is great, especially low down, much better than the stock engine or even my M44, ideal for sprinting / autotest. There's also the option or running the 90mm crank for a torquier still engine. It was a lot of work but the results are worth the effort.
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Andy, what 90mm crank is that?
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He is probably talking about the M47N crank which is 89.6mm and almost unobtanium
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Hi there, well, first of all, let me ask you wt is your budget, because starting with that, we can consider what changes to do.
If you drop in the M44 crank (83,5mm) and S50 pistons (86mm), you would end up with "only" 1929cc, that´s far from your limit...
Using S52 pistons (86,4mm) would push you up to 1947cc, still not there...
But using the allmighty M47 crankshaft (pricey, but worth it) along with stock M44 (85mm) pistons, would put you on 1997cc, that looks much better, you would only need to shave the pistons 2,5mm, and your deck height would be set at "0" and CR would be 10,8:1.
Much more torque from the bottom, and nice and good compression ratio.
Cost? Well, If I were you, I would look for a full M44 spare engine, so you don´t have to look out for M44 pistons, and you wouldn´t have to bore out the block to fit the M44 pistons.
So a nice and clean M44 engine should cost no more than $400-$500.
I bought my used M47 crank off ebay for $500, shaving pistons should cost no more than $80. balance all together about $80, and rebuild gaskets, bearings etc... $300.
All adds up to $1500, decent price for a nice 2.0L motor with huge potential.
If you have some extra cash after this, drop in a set of S50 inline throttle bodies (only 4 of course...) I bought my set for $300 on ebay, and is a pretty much straight fit (minor work involved...) on our cylinder head.
This is just my thinking, someone else is very welcome to bring in more ideas or discuss my opinion.
I hope to have helped you kidneyboy.
question,whitch crankschaft you use, or m47 100kw,or m47 110kw engine?
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Someone is bound to know. Some details are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M47
I'll bet the later motor isn't compatible as it had balancing shafts. But I'm not sure either way.
If you find some of the early model (85kw) cranks...and you could ship them to the States...demand is very high here since we really never had a diesel BMW. The 1980's 524td is a rare beast.
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As I know p/n is 11212247514 and was fitted to http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/11212247514/
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the earlest production m47 100kw cranks is hard too find in my country too. the latest production crank no problems too find.
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Someone is bound to know. Some details are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M47
I'll bet the later motor isn't compatible as it had balancing shafts. But I'm not sure either way.
If you find some of the early model (85kw) cranks...and you could ship them to the States...demand is very high here since we really never had a diesel BMW. The 1980's 524td is a rare beast.
if you tooking abaut small six ,m20d24 engines cranks from e28 524td or e30 324td i'w got a couple.