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GENERAL => Off-topic discussion => Topic started by: Frankie on September 16, 2008, 11:42:07 PM
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Price of fuel have risen rapidly within few weeks in USA. Have you cut down driving due to the higher fuel costs? Whats the alternative, public transportation, bicycle, car pooling etc.
If not, what is the treshold of fuel price which would make you to think the alternatives
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call me retarded but i hope it hits $6.00 a gallon. i quit my job and got a job accross the street so i wouldnt have to drive to work. i ride my bike to school and to work. hardly drive my car anymore. I am a geography major and i am studying first hand what the effects of the vehicle emisions are to the enviroment, and its scary. oh im a rupublican so dont criticize me, im just trying to do my part.
The reason so many people drive there SUV's around is because of cheap gas, so hopefully if it goes up this will change.:) i hope i didnt stir the ants nest or anything......
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I would consider my question rather a practical issue than political. Of course politics are involved, but when it comes to fuel price affecting daily life, politics are forgotten quickly.
I wonder why European car manufactures have not imported diesel engines to US. I have heard different reasons (high sulfur level in diesel destroys engines or emission laws), but never anything conclusive.
I think average engine size in Europe is between 1.6 to 2.0 litres, but what it is in US? MPG is better comparison factor, but to my knowledge the definition of US and EU mpg's differ.
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What high fuel prices? In the States fuel is almost free compared to european prices.
The average price in capital Helsinki area (Finland) just now is 1.49€/liter (lowest grade 95E, european standard ), which mean over $8 / gallon, so i suppsoe americans pay only about the half what we do.
What is going on in the States, we can watch almost daily basis on TV news of your bad economy and bank crises.
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There is no relevance with high prices between EU and US when it comes to consumers buying power.
Consolitated loans...no one knows who owes to who.
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The price of gasoline hasn't risen at all on the west coast. Only in the midwest and south east. I'm paying $3.60/gallon today vs $3.80 2 weeks ago. Its down 80 cents since the peak in July. But even if gas cost $10/gallon I probably wouldn't change my driving habits. If I need to drive, I drive. Thats all there is to it.
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Umm yeah, sucks when your still a student on loans. I drive only when I have to.
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Well driving habits definitely change... but frequency hasn't. The wife and I try to get the best mpg possible with every tank, check our tire pressures alot more frequently, and do our oil changes religiously at 5k.
If the gov't would pay down it's share of the national debt our gas would be a ton cheaper. But I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. And it's a wonder the average citizen is in debt up to his/her eyeballs... we learn from the feds.
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Alternate forms of transportation, like bicycling for instance, are way too risky around here for me to attempt. Besides, I/we have a very young kid to transport with us wherever we go. So right now the extent of conservation is making sure the vehicles are maintained properly, and combining errands.
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when we will start to see smaller engine AND better emission friendly in USA?
eheheh here we are at 1,43 (Euros / liter) = 7,84634476 U.S. dollars / US gallon
a couple of months ago we were way over the 1,5eur/liter... ;)
in big cities here a lot of people is starting to use the public transportation to go to work... :) the bad thing is that outside big cities, the others doesn't have a good public transportation...
diesel was really cheap 10years ago here. All were buying diesels car, now it cost the same of fuel. Sure it has better mpg...
Ok that there isn't replacement for displacement, but if a mother in USA use a 5.0L pickup to go to shopping... here they use a 1L car that go the same for how they use it :(
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According to Forbes here are the best selling cars in the USA:
1. Ford F-Series pickup
2. Chevrolet Silverado pickup
3. Toyota Camry convertible, coupe and sedan
Ford pickup has been in the pole position over 50 years....
So this list means americans still want to have big V8 engines and only "cheap" way to get it is to buy a pick up. Quite sad :(
Toyota Camry is quite interesting. If i can remember correctly Camry has held #1 passanger car ranking for years. It's interesting because in Europe Camry selling is quite marginal and it is not even for sale in quite many european country (Not in the Nordic countries, Germany, UK etc.). Here in europe Camry is in tough class, lot's of european cars in the same category available, so europeans buy these insteadt of Camry.
Back to the USA statistics; it's interesting to see that first US made passanger car is in the 8th position (Chevy Impala) all others top selling US made cars are trucks. Top seller passanger cars are Japanese models.
Here's top seller marques from last August here in Finland. Note Chevys sold here are not the "real" ones. In Europe they sell Korean Daewoos as Chevrolet.
1. TOYOTA
2. VOLKSWAGEN
3. FORD
4. VOLVO
5. SKODA
6. KIA
7. NISSAN
8. HONDA
9. PEUGEOT
10. AUDI
11. CITROEN
12. MAZDA
13. OPEL
14. BMW
15. MERCEDES-BENZ
16. FIAT
17. HYUNDAI
18. RENAULT
19. SEAT
20. MITSUBISHI
21. SAAB
22. DODGE
23. SUZUKI
24. CHEVROLET
25. SUBARU
26. CHRYSLER
27. JEEP
28. MINI
29. LAND ROVER
30. JAGUAR
Currently here in Finland diesels sell very well, mainly because of their lower taxes (less pollution compared to gas). The best selling diesel powered car here is currently Skoda Octavia. I suppose Skoda is not available in the States.
My better half bought last april one of these Octavia RS', diesel ofcourse ;)
(http://www.skoda-auto.com/NR/rdonlyres/2E3A8D9D-D577-4F4F-875D-1734FB4F00EC/0/03.jpg)
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Your list of the best selling cars in America is a little out of date.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/080604-Honda-Civic-Now-America-s-Best-Selling-Vehicle/
January-April 2008
1. Ford F-Series
2. Chevrolet Silverado
3. Toyota Camry
4. Honda Accord
5. Honda Civic
6. Toyota Corolla/Matrix
7. Nissan Altima
8. Chevrolet Impala
9. Dodge Ram
10. Ford Focus
May 2008 (percent change vs. may 2007)
1. Honda Civic (+33.3%)
2. Toyota Corolla/Matrix (+16.8%)
3. Toyota Camry (+2.3%)
4. Honda Accord (+37.0%)
5. Ford F-Series (-30.6%)
6. Chevrolet Silverado (-42.0%)
7. Nissan Altima (+43.6%)
8. Ford Focus (+53.2%)
9. Chevrolet Cobalt (+19.2%)
10. Chevrolet
http://www.examiner.com/x-244-Automotive-Examiner~y2008m9d9-With-high-gas-prices--Americas-new-bestselling-car-is-
The times they are a changing.
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New statistics just reflects what is going on just now in the States. i suppose American car manufacturers are in big trouble. Marque which can rapidly change their production to what consumers want will survy. Japanese cars seems to be popular over there. Not a single european one on that list.
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Cheap European cars fall flat on their face in America. They simply can't cut it. Its impossible to import small cars from Europe and to America and make a profit. The French and Italian automakers pulled out of this market 20 years ago. Most of VWs US bound cars are built in Mexico and Brazil. They are over priced and the build quality is atrocious by comparison to the Japanese cars. With the exception of the TDIs, the 2.5 liter 5 cylinder engine found in Rabbit and Jetta are extremely inefficient. VW and Mercedes does sell a handful of diesels but again they are expensive and have a hard time passing California emissions. California and a handful of other states that adopted California emissions rules represents 1/2 of the US car market.
Japanese cars on the other hand have built a reputation for high build quality, are built in America and are extremely cheap. A Civic sedan starts at $15,000. An Accord is $19,000. You can get a Civic with a regular 1.8 gas engine, hybrid or natural gas. There's nothing special about these cars but they get the job done for the majority of Americas. With $4/gallon gas this summer, some sanity has returned to the US market.
(http://www.autorecap.com/honda-civic-hybrid/images/honda-civic-hybrid-lrg.jpg)
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Also here in Europe most of the Japanese cars are actually build in Europe, mainly in UK (Honda & Nissan). Toyota makes cars at least in Portugal and several Corolla models come from Turkey. Compared to build quality these japanese cars cannot compare for example to the quality of German made VW's etc, which has very high quality. Only "real" japanese cars nowadays are Mazda which imports cars still from Japan. Japanese Marques cannot compete with price, they are about the same level as european cars. For some reason here in finland people just keep buing those Toyotas which is selling quite well, i suppose it's just an old tradition; Finland was the first country in Europe where Toyota and Nissan started to import cars. During that time most of the cars were german or UK made, UK made cars dropped off quite soon, because their quality was so poor compared to japanese ones.
With $4/gallon gas this summer, some sanity has returned to the US market.
Somehow this is a good joke for us europeans, it's about the half what we pay, so you guys drive almost free ;)
I suppose we paid that little over ten years ago.
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Look, guys we should just be happy with what we have. I don't know about you guys but 'driving spiritedly' still gets me mid-upper 20's and that's FINE by me!! My stepdad has a Range Rover and a Porche 930 and my mom has a Lexus LX450 (a small tank) and they've all but given up on driving those things, and I feel lucky as hell. Sure, here in the southeast 91/93 octane is $3.90 a gal but I'll tell you, considering it's been this way for what, 6+ months? I think we might as well just get used to it. I'm thinking about going to Europe for college, and I can only hope I find something as efficient and fun as the 318is. Also, biodiesels and Veggie-Oil conversions are becoming more and more popular. Even the motor 'how-to' shows will actually tell you how to get diesel from used Vegetable oil. Sure, you're car smells like french fries, and o.k., the kit costs a pretty penny, but getting free fuel quickly outweighs the price. Oh and a big apology to those in CA. Anyways, we've got a few options out of this financial scare and the Federal Government is pretty much going in the complete opposite direction they should be. But I digress, that's my 2˘
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There are many large American made or “American sized” vehicles driving around Europe nowadays. I see quite a few Jeep Grand Cherokee and Chrysler mini-vans along with the European SUV offerings, albeit almost all are in diesel variations.
I believe another point to consider in the OP's question is infrastructure; when we arrived in Italy with a Ford Explorer and Jeep TJ, we had a hard time finding a house to rent with a garage or parking big enough for our vehicles. The driveways were either too narrow or had turning radiuses exceeding the capability of the Explorer. With 33 inch tires and 4 inches of suspension lift on the Jeep, the ceilings of the garages were too low to drive into.
Although we get 400 liters of gas each month at “American” prices, we sold the Explorer simply because it was too big and impractical for use as a commuter car where we live. We bought a Ford Focus in its place.
There are a lot of interesting points made throughout this thread and it's refreshing to see the high level of civility in the discussions. I’ve visited many other forums where this topic would have morphed into a xenophobic, anti-(insert nationality) free-for-all. For the fact this hasn’t happened, I commend everyone for the respect shown to each opinion/comment.:cool:
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In the last few months, I've really started to believe that electric vehicles will begin to take a large chunk of the new car market in a very short period of time. For a long time it was an issue of battery size, weight and range. Not anymore. Today you can build a pure electric car with the same power, torque (actually a hell of a lot more torque from zero RPM), weight and range as an average gasoline powered car. It just comes down to the price of the batteries. But if we've learned anything from the electronics industry, that cost will come down very very quickly. Lithium ion cells today cost 1/10 of what they cost 10 years ago when they first appeared. The battery going into the Chevy volt costs $10,000 and thats the first vehicle to use one in mass production. Both BMW and Mercedes have announced S class and 7 series hybrids that use Li-ion batteries. The 3.5 liter V6 S class with a 20hp, 180lb/ft electric motor and a 120v battery gets 30mpg in the combined city/highway cycle. I'm sure Mercedes is going to charge an extra $10k for the privilage, but the technology really isn't that expensive anymore.
The whole battery is the silver box on the passenger side just below the windshield.
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/09/mercedes-s400-hybrid-03.jpg
The battery takes up exactly the same amount of space as the old 12v lead acid battery. In stop and go traffic, this battery can move the S class on its own for a short distance the same way a Prius does.
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/09/mercedes-s400-hybrid-05.jpg
For comparison, this is the size of the NIMH battery in the much smaller and lighter Prius. Its about 4x1x1 feet and weighs 300lb.
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/private-sales/6146d1191294713-prius-hybrid-battery-pack-mint-low-mile-prius_battery.jpg
I'm not knocking the Prius. I'm just trying to point out how quickly the technology is advancing.
And finally, my all time favorite engine swap project.
http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/ProjectBMW.html
(http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/images/P1010362.JPG)
By the way, electricity costs the equivalent of 75 cents/gallon in California. In places like Washington state that have abundant hydro electric and nuclear power, its closer to 40 cents/gallon.
(http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/images/P1010425.JPG)
(http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/images/CompareICE_EV.jpg)
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I know what you mean. We have hard to find space enough even in newer parking places/buildings. Seems to me architectural planning is still in the '70's; at least they make parking places which are more suitable for average japanese/european car built 30 years ago. That can be easily see if i compare the size of my E30 to my wifes new Skoda Octavia, Skoda is considered a smaller class car than 3- series BMW, My E30 is much smaller than that "little" Skoda. So even european cars has grown a lot during past 20 years.
What comes to electric car; it's very interesting issue. Take for example Porsche. Old Ferdinad's first cars were 4 wd electric ones back in the early 1900's. He wrote then that the gas burning engines are old fashioned and they will die away in few years.... He changed his mind shortly after. So in the past 100 years the batteries has been and still are the major problem
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(http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/09/img_2008_09_24_liion_batterien_9_en.jpg)
A week after Mercedes-Benz announced details of its first hybrid, battery supplier Continental Automotive has launched production of the battery packs. Mercedes will be the first manufacturer to mass produce a hybrid vehicles with lithium ion batteries. Continental spent €3 million to build the battery manufacturing facility in Nuremberg. The first batteries that being produced weigh 55 lbs and have a volume of just under 0.5 cu. ft. When the Mercedes S400 BlueHybrid launches in mid-2009 with this 120V battery pack it will be installed in the engine compartment in place of the standard 12V lead acid battery.
Since this is the first mass market automotive application of a lithium battery, Mercedes and Continental are being extra careful. The battery is designed to last a minimum of 10 years and 100,000-150,000 miles so Continental has developed a sophisticated monitoring system to make sure that it operates within normal operating parameters. Each individual cell is monitored to keeps loads balanced and ensure even charging and discharging. Continental had to develop special processes to weld the copper bus bars that act as cell interconnects. The whole battery is enclosed inside of a laser-welded stainless steel case. The initial production capacity of the factory is 15,000 units a year and that can easily be doubled.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/25/continental-starts-production-of-lithium-ion-batteries/
This battery will be used in both the S class and 7 series and probably many other cars soon there after.
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I too believe electricity is our best option for the short term future, but only if it is nuclear.
Just as a hypothetical example: lets say that within 10 years the vast majority of automobiles are electric. The demand for electricity will skyrocket and energy plants will have to keep up with the demand.
This is where the problem is, currently most of the electricity in the United States is produced from natural gas, coal, oil, or other non renewable sources. Switching to electric vehicles would only sweep the problem under the rug so to speak and nothing would be solved. We would still be dependent on oil to produce the electricity we are all of a sudden dependent on.
But switch to nuclear, now thats a solution. That would probably be my first choice for the energy needs of the US and the world for the next few hundred years. Build more nuclear power plants and convert everything to electricity. Look at France for example, I believe over 80% of their electricity comes from nuclear sources.
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Trend in Europe is currently to drive down nuclear power plants. That is happening now for example in Germany and Sweden. If i remember correctly Sweden has decided to get rid of all of it's nuclear power plants. France is just a another kind of example, they use a lot nuclear sources. Here in Finland there is one new nuclear power plant under construction currently. There are lot's of plans in Europe to move to natural gas power plants. They have planned to build a huge natural gas pipe from Russia across of Gulf of Finland to northern Germany from where the pipe lines will be spread all over the Europe. Iam not sure tough is it wise to be more tight up to Russian energy sources.
We use here a lot of waterpower, after all there are rivers & lakes in this country. Also more and more renewable sources are used, mostly wood and swamps. Nuclear power is one alternative, but i suppose it is good to have alternatives as well, like wind, water etc. power.
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I too believe electricity is our best option for the short term future, but only if it is nuclear.
Just as a hypothetical example: lets say that within 10 years the vast majority of automobiles are electric. The demand for electricity will skyrocket and energy plants will have to keep up with the demand.
This is where the problem is, currently most of the electricity in the United States is produced from natural gas, coal, oil, or other non renewable sources. Switching to electric vehicles would only sweep the problem under the rug so to speak and nothing would be solved. We would still be dependent on oil to produce the electricity we are all of a sudden dependent on.
But switch to nuclear, now thats a solution. That would probably be my first choice for the energy needs of the US and the world for the next few hundred years. Build more nuclear power plants and convert everything to electricity. Look at France for example, I believe over 80% of their electricity comes from nuclear sources.
This is a myth. In short, EVs are significantly more efficient in converting their energy into mechanical power. A coal fired power plant is about 35% efficient at converting the chemical energy stored in coal into electricity while a gasoline power engine can only do about 20-25%.
http://www.businessweek.com/investing/green_business/archives/2007/10/why_electric_ve.html
http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf
http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/electric-powered-cars.html
(http://www.businessweek.com/investing/greenbiz/archives/PHEV%20ghg%20intensity.JPG)
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This is a myth. In short, EVs are significantly more efficient in converting their energy into mechanical power. A coal fired power plant is about 35% efficient at converting the chemical energy stored in coal into electricity while a gasoline power engine can only do about 20-25%.
Not really.
Even if you assume electric motors are 100% efficient at converting stored energy into motion (which they are not but lets assume for this example which will make the EV's look better than they really are), they are comparable to gas engines and significantly worse than diesel engines. Coal fired and other non renewable sources to produce electricity are about 30-35% efficient, but then about another 8% is lost in the transport of electricity to where they are needed. So you are at best only around 27% efficient, whereas modern gasoline engines are more like 30-35% efficient. Diesels are at about 45%.
And that is not even including the huge amount of energy required to convert to EV.
EV's only make sense if we get the electricity from nuclear power or renewable sources.
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Not really.
Even if you assume electric motors are 100% efficient at converting stored energy into motion (which they are not but lets assume for this example which will make the EV's look better than they really are), they are comparable to gas engines and significantly worse than diesel engines. Coal fired and other non renewable sources to produce electricity are about 30-35% efficient, but then about another 8% is lost in the transport of electricity to where they are needed. So you are at best only around 27% efficient, whereas modern gasoline engines are more like 30-35% efficient. Diesels are at about 45%.
And that is not even including the huge amount of energy required to convert to EV.
EV's only make sense if we get the electricity from nuclear power or renewable sources.
Can you cite a source of any of your claims? Most of it is just plain wrong.
Modern gasoline engines have an average efficiency of about 25 to 30% when used to power an automobile. In other words, of the total heat energy of gasoline, 70 to 75% is rejected (as heat) in the exhaust or consumed by the motor (friction, air turbulence, heat through the cylinder walls or cylinder head, and work used to turn engine equipment and appliances such as water and oil pumps and electrical generator), and only about 25% of energy moves the vehicle. At idle the efficiency is zero by definition, since no useable work is being drawn from the engine. At slow speed (i.e. low power output) the efficiency is much lower than average, due to a larger percentage of the available heat being absorbed by the metal parts of the engine, instead of being used to perform useful work. Gasoline engines also suffer efficiency losses at low speeds from the high turbulence and head loss when the incoming air must fight its way around the nearly-closed throttle; diesel engines do not suffer this loss because the incoming air is not throttled. Engine efficiency improves considerably at open road speeds; it peaks in most applications at around 75% of rated engine power, which is also the range of greatest engine torque (e.g. in the 2007 Ford Focus, maximum torque of 133 foot-pounds is obtained at 4500 RPM, and maximum engine power of 136 brake horsepower (101 kW) is obtained at 6000 RPM).
Engines using the Diesel cycle are usually more efficient, although the Diesel cycle itself is less efficient at equal compression ratios. Since diesel engines use much higher compression ratios (the heat of compression is used to ignite the slow-burning diesel fuel), that higher ratio more than compensates for the lower intrinsic cycle efficiency, and allows the diesel engine to be more efficient. The most efficient type, direct injection Diesels, are able to reach an efficiency of about 40% in the engine speed range of idle to about 1,800 rpm. Beyond this speed, efficiency begins to decline due to air pumping losses within the engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency
Electric motor efficiency.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrical-motor-efficiency-d_655.html
Electric power transmission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission
WELL-TO-WHEELS EMISSIONS DATA FOR PLUG-IN HYBRIDS AND ELECTRIC VEHICLES
EVs reduce CO 2 by 11%-100% compared with ICEs and by 24%-54% compared with HEVs, and significantly reduce all other greenhouse gas emissions, using the U.S. grid mix. If all U.S. cars were EVs, we’d reduce global warming emissions. Using electricity strictly from coal, EVs still would reduce CO 2 by 0%-59% compared with ICEs (one analysis found 0% change; six others found reductions of 17%-59%) and might produce 30%-49% more CO 2 than HEVs (based on only two analyses). On theother hand, if electricity comes from solar or wind power, EVs eliminate all emissions.
http://www.sherryboschert.com/Downloads/Emissions%5B9%5D.pdf
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Can you cite a source of any of your claims? Most of it is just plain wrong.
All sources are within 5-10% of each other. Depending on which sources you choose of course you can skew the results to your side. A few percent here or there does not make anyone "plain wrong".
Your source specifically says that one study found EV's would not lower C02 emmisions if the electricity was from coal. Others varied but either way it is not clear cut. Believe it or not, nothing is so clear cut like you seem to know, usually there is some gray area. No one can for sure say what the results would be.
Think about it in the big picture, there is no need to be so unreasonable and claim a few percent variation makes something unacceptable. Every study weighs variables differently and has incentive to prove something to their benefit.
Gas engines are about 25-35% efficient. Coal fired electricity plants are about 30-35% efficient. Not such a huge change as a you claim. Is a 5% change really worth all the energy required to convert to EV's? And what about all the new mining needed for Nickel or Lithium batteries? Diesels destroy coal fired EVs so the global difference would be even less.
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Well you have your claims, no matter how wrong they are and I have mine, backed up by data. Everyone else is free to read through the links I poster and come up to their own conclusion. So far you have failed to produce any data that backs up your position. My hypothesys stands: Even if an electric vehicle gets its power off the grid directly from a coal fueled power plant, it will produce far fewer CO2 emissions that any internal combustion engine including diesels. That's all there is to it.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
https://www.healthgoods.com/Education/Energy_Information/General_Energy_Information/fossil_fuel%20coal.htm
http://fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/gasification/index.html
Ok, there you go. You have your precious sources. Does that change any of my previous points? No.
Stop hiding behind your "source" excuse and claiming that I am completely wrong. It adds nothing to the discussion and is just a waste of time. Don't just list sources and say you are right, use your brain and add some useful analysis. It would also be nice if you read other people's points, thought about them for a little while, and then added a useful response or statement.
As I have stated before and I have now proved to you with your all-telling sources, coal fired electricity plants are only around 30-35% efficient.
Now think about it in the big picture. Gasoline vehicles are about 30% efficient as you have previously stated and backed up with sources. If coal fired electricity plants are 30-35% efficient, where is the drastic change?
A few percent is not what I would call "far fewer". And you have not even considered the amount of energy required to convert vehicles to electricity or build brand new EV's.
It is a nice idea, but currently does not make any sense.
And another thing, burning coal for electricity is currently the biggest source of emmisions in the US. Coal fired EVs with todays technology are merely a novel idea that sweeps our problems under the rug without solving anything.
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anybody ever see who killed the electric car?