M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: Burnall4 on September 13, 2008, 09:05:06 PM
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Hi everyone, new here and I am just throwing this post up (I know before I searched) I will do a more detailed search of the old thread when I have a little bit more time, here is the problem:
Symptoms:
1. Car is cold and go to start it
2. For the first thirty seconds the car idles rough, like it has a HUGE vacuum leak, shakes the motor/car toward the end of the thirty seconds and tries to choke itself off.
3. If you hit the gas in this time the idle gets worse, sputters harder
4. If you you let the car sit for the 30 sec (avg. time) it smoothes itself out and is perfectly fine, you can drive it all you want.
Side Symptoms:
1. Car can bee driven for hours, minutes etc... when you shut it off and go back to start it depending on how long its been sitting there the same symptoms as the ones for mentioned occur on different levels of severity. But some times you can just jump in it and go?!
2. If you are driving the car immediately after starting it, you can mash down the gas and it goes no where, then as the 30 sec draws to a close you can as if the "exhaust gas" or some sort of pressure is released and you are off and going.
Thoughts:
1. it seems as if the car is running in "limp mode" closed loop/open loop.
2. It could be coming from the emissions, and the ecu not recognizing the Catalytic converter is warmed up enough to go?!?! (had experience with this in my STi)
3. Something with the cold start system is not reading properly
4. There is a small/medium vacuum leak some where adding to the problem
Ideas:
1. Replace all the "tune up" items, starting with o2 sensor
2. ECU reflash/Re-program
Help:
Please
thanks for taking the time to read this!
Burn
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Sounds like a fuel pressure problem or a vacuum problem to me. If you have a fuel pressure gauge, check that you are getting approx 3 bar supply pressure when the engine is running. Also check around the throttle body and intake manifold for any vacuum hoses that are loose, cracked or removed.
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What do the spark plugs look like?
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Sounds like a fuel pressure problem or a vacuum problem to me. If you have a fuel pressure gauge, check that you are getting approx 3 bar supply pressure when the engine is running. Also check around the throttle body and intake manifold for any vacuum hoses that are loose, cracked or removed.
I checked for vacuum leaks the old fashion way carb cleaner...I need to check again, visual and carb cleaner. There has to be some sort of vacuum leak along with something else that is going on, I haven't checked fuel pressure yet.
What do the spark plugs look like?
haven't checked yet, what specifics are thinking of? Fuel, oil, or carbon build up?
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Ahhh yet another poor suffering soul. Sorry to have to welcome you to the club. There are a little over 10 of us dealing and searching for the solution to this problem. Other threads are:
HERE (http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6077)
HERE (http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5480)
AND HERE (http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6238)
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other than lambda sensor, fuel pressure, vacuum leak, and spark plugs, how is your camshaft sensor?
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I talked to my friend who is a BMW master tech and he suggested this...
"sounds like the ECU is trying to find a sensor and can't so it just cuts it out of the loop, here is what you do..."
He basically said "take the o2 sensor out and leave it out, reset the ecu and see what happens, if it does not improve replace all of your vacuum hoses. If that doesn't work , try your CPS, TPS, ICV, Check valve etc... and if that doesn't work bring it to me..."
he said there is a common Vacuum hose under the Intake Manifold that they call the aorta, it has 4 vacuum hoses going into it that commonly goes bad. He also mentioned this is not that uncommon for the m42. So I will play around with it this weekend and see.
Funny thing is, started it up this morning (it was cool outside) not a problem, same thing happened the other day when i woke up super early to take my sister to the hospital, not a problem in the world. Started up and drove like a dream from the start. The outside temp was definitely cooler than any other time, by like 10-20 degrees.
Hmmm....
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Do you get a popping through the intake?
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YOu know, I am not sure if I do, when I go out to my car tonight after class I will check. I got the "popping" on my 325is from the intake which was a vacuum leak.
reading all the threads I have noticed some commonalities
1. Our problem is Temp sensetive either outside or car/motor
2. Our problem is also time sensetive, how long the car sits, to driving time
3. No one has replaced their ECU completely with a new/used one
Hmmm....still working through some stuff in my head before I tackle the car. I am going to consult the manual. Tonight.
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im dealing with this too. i have to keep on the throttle for a minute or so just for it to idle or it dies. (i feel like a dumbass in my high schools' parking lot, lol) a mechanic suggested that the mass air flow sensor was the problem, so i bought one off Fredk. i sprayed some o2 sensor cleaner ( or something like that,) in my exsisting m.a.f.s. and it helped a little until i turned it off and let it sit. it makes me think that the m.a.f.s. is the problem, so i cant wait until my new(er) one comes in.
i cant even go past 1/4 throttle before it starts shaking and stuff (no transision, just automaticly), i always have to shift to a lower gear ( 1st or 2nd) to get up even a small incline, (those two gears hardly have any problems, first is almost normal, but after higher rpms in 2nd and all gears on up, it like my car has turned into a huge back massager) i don't even use the highway anymore, i can't accelerate to the speed limit in time to merge. and i can't have the A/C on and let the car idle, cus it will slowly drop rpms then die.
ive fixed the vacuum leaks i had when i first bought it, (i only saw 2 hoses comming form the m.a.f.s., i replaced both).
any ways, i guess that in that huge post i was trying to say to mess with the m.a.f.s. a little bit,and please keep posting what you do, and if it helped or not, so i have an idea of what to try next : )
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I don't know if its necessarily the MAF, there are some reasons I say this but I am not going to expand, until I know for sure my hypothesis is right. I will update, I really think it has to do with a sensor/ecu/vacuum problem. yes the MAF, is a flap door "sensor" but thats not the type of sensor I am talking about.
Any other ideas?
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Here is some tech info on the engine, to answer some questions, some might have, found on this website http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318isengine.html
Dimensions (nominal) : 84mm/3.31" bore x 3.19" stroke
Displacement : 1796 cc
Camshaft : Duration: inlet 252 exhaust 252 Lift: inlet 10.2 exhaust 10.2
Lobe height: 1.8755-1.8803"
Con-rods : Max. weight variance without bearing shells: 4g/14oz split equally between big and small ends
Crankshaft : End play: 0.0031-0.0064"
Thrust on cylinder 4
Cylinders : Max. ovality: 0.01mm/0.0004"
Max. taper: 0.01mm/0.0004"
Cylinder head : Height = 140mm/5.512"; minimum height = 139.55mm/5.494"
Firing order : 1-3-4-2
Fuel Pressure : 43 psi
Oil pressure : 1.3-2.0 Bar/18 psi @ idle, 4.0-4.3 Bar/57-62 psi at 6250rpm
Oil Filter : Hengst E88H D24 in-bowl type
Oil Type : I would recommend a 5W40, 5W50 or 10W50 fully synthetic (the text book says 15W50) as the tappets seem to prefer a lower viscosity oil
Output : 134 (cat) -136 (non-cat) bhp @ 6000rpm; 127 ft-lb @ 4600 rpm
Pistons : Clearance: 0.0004-0.0016"
Piston rings : Gap: Top & bottom compression rings = 0.0080-0.0160" ; oil ring = 0.0080-0.0180"
Compression pressures : 10-11bar (143-156psi):
Torques : Big ends: Step 1 = 23Nm/17 ft-lbs, Step 2 = +70 degrees
Camshaft sprocket: 13-17 Nm/10-12 ft-lbs
Camshaft bearing cap bolts: 13-17 Nm/10-12 ft-lbs
Crankshaft damper: 300-320 Nm/217-231 ft-lbs
Cylinder head: Step 1 = 30-35Nm/22-25 ft-lbs, Step 2 = +90-95 degrees, Step 3 = +90-95 degrees
Exhaust manifold: 22-24Nm/17-18 ft-lbs
Flywheel: 82-94 ft-lbs
Intake manifold: 13-17Nm/10-12 ft-lbs
Main bearings: Step 1 = 20-25/14-18 ft-lbs, Step 2 = +47-53 degree turn
Viscous fan coupling (LH threads): 40-50Nm/29-36ft-lbs
Timing chain tensioner: 23-27Nm/17-19 ft-lbs
Valves : Seat angle: 45 degrees
Valve stem to guide clearance: 0.020"
Inlet: Solid, stem diameter 6.975mm/0.2756", head diameter 33mm/1.299"
Exhaust: Sodium filled, diameter 6.975mm/0.2756", head diameter 30.5mm/1.201"
Seat diameter: inlet = 31.6mm/1.244", exhaust = 29.1mm/1.146"
Seat width: 1.4-1.9mm/0.055-0.075"
Valve clearance : None, automatically compensated by hydraulic tappets
Fuel System
Injectors: Flowrate: 170 cc/min
Test pressure: 3 Bar/43psi
Coil resistance: (@20 deg C/68 deg F): 15-17.5 Ohms
Ejection angle: 30 deg
Ignition
Motronic : Bosch DME 0-261-200-175 Software version 1.7 (US details)
Spark plugs : 16mm 3 electrode NGK BKR6EK or Bosch F7LDCR. The Champion RC8DMC can be used too. Note a 4 electrode platinum plug has been approved for the M42 engine with max. 100,000 miles life, BMW part# 12 12 9 071 003, NGK BKR6EQUP or Bosch FGR7DQP.
Installation torque 27-33Nm/20-24ft-lbs
Plug gap : As specified above, they are unadjustable (pregapped) otherwise 0.027"
Idle Speed : 850rpm
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More research
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=89925
put a 10$ inline fuel guage in. then see if it holds pressure after you shut it off. if it is dropping to 0 then the FPR or the fuel pump check valve is faulty. You can test the FPR by pinching the return line when you shut the engine off. If the pressure drops it is likely an $11 check valve. i can get the pn for you if this is the case. If the pressure does not drop then the FPR is at fault.
Does this mean you have the hard start problem? I recommend you try jumping the fuel pump relay before starting the engine in order to pressurize the fuel rail when you usually experience the hard start to rule it out… while it is a cheap, simple solution there are a number of other issues that show the same symptoms. One typical issue on the M42 is the ‘flying saucer’ check valve ($63 part number 11157501567) for the PCV system if the engine is also running rough and is difficult to start, especially when cold. To rule it out pinch the hose off when the engine is warm… if the idle smoothes out that’s it… the base seal can also leak so try some butane, propane, or ether at the base to see if the engine smoothes out.
also check crank sensor gap, and crank sensor resistance, both hot and cold. a new sensor cold is 960 ohms +_ 10%
Kowalski's post
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Ok, so although this issue is almost resolved, I figure it can help someone out who might be having similar troubles.
My 1991 E30 318 has had a lot of issues lately. Outside of the suspension needing an overhaul it started to idle funny, randomly the idle would jump from 650-1500 RPM, and basically i had no idea what was going on.
I though to first clean out my throttle body and any surrounding areas. This seemed to help a little, but the problem with the funky idle persisted.
From there I checked some vacuum lines, found one to be cracked. Fixed most of the funny idle, but still issues.
Changed my throttle position sensor( this is not found in the 325's, those have ICV's{idle control valves}). that did..well nothing for me.
I just learned to deal with the problem till the car finally stopped running. It would turn over, was getting fuel to the engine. I had no idea what was going on. Car left me stranded..first time ever. Took it to a local mechanic(works on BMW's full time at a shop but he took me in as a side job.) had him look over the entire car.
Now what he is telling me is that the ECU's from the late E30's have ECU issues. Basically would have to swap out the ECU. I guess the soldering is not of the highest quality on all of the ECU's. He has seen more and more issues like this lately.
Solution for me is going to be garaging the car till i have money to fix it. Was going to sell it, but i just cannot let me baby go. Shell get a makeover after i graduate college. E36 M3 engine would be sweet.
So...if you have a E30 318 with random "not starting" issues consider the ECU. If you have a rough idle check the vacuum lines, clean your throttle body, and maybe check your throttle position switch(which mine was not working up to par, so i switched it out..but it didnt fix my main problem).
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From
http://www.unitedbimmer.com/forums/e21-e30/12654-m42-318-wont-start-ecu-problems.html
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I am still leaning to it being a ECU problem.... logic step by step based on all that has been done to the everyone else's car leads back to the ECU might be different from car to car, but if we are making generalization, it would make sense?!
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So my car has been sitting all day long, I know it would act up. So using the complete tool kit in my trunk :) I disconnected the battery (positive side) Depressed the brake pedal (gets remaining charge out of the car) and then unhooked the ECU. Then i went and helped my friend with her car alarm that was set off for no reason and wouldn't shut it off. Come back to my car, put everything back together, fired it up rev'd it for the first min, varied the throttle....and you know what not a damn thing. I still have to test some things out but its some progress....
By chance does everyone with this problem have a chipped ECU? I do...just a thought!
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^It'll run good for awhile. Hell, mine doesn't even throw any codes anymore since I've changed all the lines and everything. I have used different ecu's to check if that's the problem. One of which from a car with no running/idling issues. Tried chipped versus unchipped just for S&G's... but of course no difference.
I'm leaning towards a sensor/bad engine ground/FPR at the moment. I've changed everything else.
Oh what is the disc shaped check valve mentioned above?... haven't changed that.
EDIT: I can't find a listing for that part number above on RealOEM or other site...
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The check valve is against the firewall on the driver side of the engine, it has a 90 degree bend with a disc/circle underneath it, separate by two hoses I will try to find a picture.
ON another note, its doing it again, ran fine all last night and this morning when i had to move my car, but when I went to work/school it started again again damn it :mad:
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Has anyone checked to see if their catalytic converter is clogged?
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I was curious about the cat as well. I am having my whole exhaust system replaced up to the header soon. New pipe, new hi flow cat, and new muffler... so I'll let you know what that does for me. Replacing due to annoying exhaust leaks.
Is the check valve the 90 degree thing in the brake booster vacuum line?
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Yes (about the check valve, location and appearance)
I am curious to know if its clogged, hmmmm...
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Yes (about the check valve, location and appearance)
I am curious to know if its clogged, hmmmm...
Well... I just did a bunch of work to the car. Checked the valves (both of them). The one on the booster and also the one by the carbon canister both appeared fine. I carb cleaner sprayed them and lubed them anyway. We'll see if that does anything. Was going to check the FPR but couldn't get it out of the rail. I checked the cam and crank sensor connections to the big electrical box under the intake. Also checked there were no frayed wires or anything in the box itself since I had the intake off.
Then I seafoamed it :) LOL talk about smoke. I took an 8.5 minute video of smoke. I treated the oil, gas, and sucked in through the nipple that the brake booster line is normally hooked up to. After reving it for 8 minutes I drove it for about 10... not flogging it but getting up to 5.5k on gear changes to ensure I cleaned it out. In a bit I am going to go buy some new oil and change it.
On the drive getting the rest of the smoke (carbon) out... I must say the car felt awesome. This could be placebo but time will tell. Also no way to know if messing about with the stuff I checked/cleaned did anything for our start problem yet... but I'll keep you guys updated. I wanted to do the seafoam because it is supposed to clean the PCV system... and exhaust system.
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Well... I just did a bunch of work to the car. Checked the valves (both of them). The one on the booster and also the one by the carbon canister both appeared fine. I carb cleaner sprayed them and lubed them anyway. We'll see if that does anything. Was going to check the FPR but couldn't get it out of the rail. I checked the cam and crank sensor connections to the big electrical box under the intake. Also checked there were no frayed wires or anything in the box itself since I had the intake off.
Then I seafoamed it :) LOL talk about smoke. I took an 8.5 minute video of smoke. I treated the oil, gas, and sucked in through the nipple that the brake booster line is normally hooked up to. After reving it for 8 minutes I drove it for about 10... not flogging it but getting up to 5.5k on gear changes to ensure I cleaned it out. In a bit I am going to go buy some new oil and change it.
On the drive getting the rest of the smoke (carbon) out... I must say the car felt awesome. This could be placebo but time will tell. Also no way to know if messing about with the stuff I checked/cleaned did anything for our start problem yet... but I'll keep you guys updated. I wanted to do the seafoam because it is supposed to clean the PCV system... and exhaust system.
When you test the start up let me know. I think I am going to replace a good majority of the sensors/hoses to start off with, I am about to order a bunch of stuff from pelican and bma. Which thread had the list of stuff you replaced?
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Do a part-vehicle search, it shows for the E36 M42.
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Does our o2 sensor have a internal heating element or is it heated by the exhaust gas?
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ok so i played "mad scientist" tonight. I unplugged the o2 sensor and rest the ecu, leaving the o2 out of the "loop" so the ecu would not see it and the engine was as cold as ice...here is what i found out
1. the car ran for longer without starting to choke itself out
2. when the temp needle made its first move the idle changed slightly
3. as the temp needle progressed the idle got worse and worse
4. when it moved out of the blue into the black before the first white mark (on the temp gauge), it smoothed out to normal.
What does this tell me:
1. the problem is related to temp of the engine hence :warm start idle problem:
2. Check all things that are affected/effected by temp on start up, coolant temp sensor, ICV, rubber (expands and contracts)
Thoughts?
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Still does the warm start idle issue. I am still glad I did the seafoam though because now the car runs even better than before and man do the internals look clean (from what I could see through the VC). Below is my list so far... Up next is, crank/cam sensors, new cat (hi flow aftermarket) & exhaust. The more I think about it... the more I think it is the crank or cam sensor.
1. ICV (replaced)
2. Vacuum Leaks (did TB heater delete and replaced hoses)
3. o2 Sensor (replaced)
4. Plugs & Wires (replaced as part of maintenance)
5. Fuel Injectors (mustang 19#)
6. Exhaust Header Gasket (had a leak)
7. AFM (replaced)
8. Engine Temp Sensor (replaced)
9. Throttle Position Sensor (replaced)
10. ECU (replaced)
11. Intake Boot (replaced as maintenance with new motor)
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hmmmm, what is weird, is when I was in the car just a couple of minutes ago. The car started fine, it was completely hot. Then as I turned onto my street (I am leaving my parking area) the car wouldn't go...pedal all the way to the floor, car idles rough then all of the sudden bam it figures out that i have it floored and it goes like a bat out of hell.
Makes me think its the ICV and the TPS...but i keep getting this gut feeling about the fuel pressure also...this is so aggravating
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hmmmm, what is weird, is when I was in the car just a couple of minutes ago. The car started fine, it was completely hot. Then as I turned onto my street (I am leaving my parking area) the car wouldn't go...pedal all the way to the floor, car idles rough then all of the sudden bam it figures out that i have it floored and it goes like a bat out of hell.
Makes me think its the ICV and the TPS...but i keep getting this gut feeling about the fuel pressure also...this is so aggravating
Mine does this all the time when I am too inpatient to let it idle and fully warm up. If I just drive off (even if it appears to have started and idle properly) it will do exactly what you describe.
After doing some research... I found that my car with the original motor in it would do this exact thing. But the new motor that I put in it didn't have any signs of this problem before being installed in the car. Soooooooo this leads me to believe it is a sensor or component totally isolated from the engine. Which makes sense because none of the usual fixes worked. Are there any components completely removed from the engine/trans that could be causing this? My fuel has been checked, ECU replaced, but other than that I am at a loss. I was thinking a possibly clogged catalyst? Going to have a complete header back exhaust redo... so we'll see if that fixes it.
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Mine does this all the time when I am too inpatient to let it idle and fully warm up. If I just drive off (even if it appears to have started and idle properly) it will do exactly what you describe.
After doing some research... I found that my car with the original motor in it would do this exact thing. But the new motor that I put in it didn't have any signs of this problem before being installed in the car. Soooooooo this leads me to believe it is a sensor or component totally isolated from the engine. Which makes sense because none of the usual fixes worked. Are there any components completely removed from the engine/trans that could be causing this? My fuel has been checked, ECU replaced, but other than that I am at a loss. I was thinking a possibly clogged catalyst? Going to have a complete header back exhaust redo... so we'll see if that fixes it.
When i was dealing with my cold start issue, I thought my cat was clogged also, the easiest way to tell is to stick your hand behind the muffler, no air flow = clogged cat
Even after preforming this test about 10 times i decided to take it to an exhaust shop. They drilled a hole in my cat and stuck a sensor in it. No issues with my cat.
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Well... mine has TONS of airflow out of the exhaust. Seems like too much to me. LOL I've never seen a car that can blow leaves off of the driveway on idle. I also have a really annoying raspy sound like an exhaust leak between 2k and 4k so I think it might be something about the car rattling. Could also be an exhaust leak at the header itself I guess. This would be before the o2 and would cause problems, correct? When my car does this issue it runs REALLY rich.
Burn... do you have any kind of exhaust issue/sound at all?
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Exhaust issues are a negative on mine. It has a raspy note around 3500, whenever my tach actually works.
But the air flow is "strong" at idle and when i get into the upper rev range it really sounds good, with a good even tone to the exhaust.
I was at our local meet last night and talking to a VW mechanic that has older GTIs, I was talking to abuddy beside him and telling him about my problem and before i could finish the VW mechanic chimed in and finished my sentence for me with the exact symptoms I was going to say. He said put a new ICV/clean the ICV but the important thing is check the wiring. He said where they place the ICV the wiring can get messed up. He had the same thing happen on all of his GTIs (he likes the early 90s version) and he said replace the vacuum hoses and it should do the trick. That is where I am going to start. Thoughts?
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What sends the signal for the TACH, the TPS?
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What sends the signal for the TACH, the TPS?
I believe it's the crank sensor?
I already changed everything the VW guy suggested... didn't work. I think this is going to be something external to the motor based on the above deduction.
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Don't know if this makes any difference, but I'll give you my idle story.
I recently picked up 318is and have driven it for about 3 weeks. When I started it up when it's cold, it would idle for about 20 seconds and then just die and catch itself and pick back up, if I drove it while it was cold, coming off a stoplight, it would stumble and buck hard, sometimes when it did it, I would see the CEL flash. As soon as it warms up, it went away. I usually do PM on my new vehicles, so I started out with the fuel filter and air filter. When I changed the fuel filter out, I found that the internal element had somehow broken loose and was just jingling inside. Swapped it out and the car hasn't stumbled on cold start idles since, but it did buck on me one time when it was cold while I was driving.
I'm still having small idle issues, nothing major like everyone else though.
1. Cold start idle is low, about 800-900, as the engine gets warmer, the idle gets higher, when the engine is fully warm, it idles at 1000-1050.
2. When you stomp the gas when it's sitting, it has a slight hesistation, but then picks up.
3. If you leave a stoplight and roll into hard, past 50% throttle, it kind of bucks and stumbles slightly.
Doesn't seem to be the same problems everyone else is having, but none the less, still an M42 problem.
Also, just a few things I've learned, when a cat's clogged, it usually it hotter then normal, I don't know exactly what the normal temp of a cat is a optimum effeciency, but I've heard of clogged cats glowing from the heat.
Also, I've had friends that work in shops that have had sensor problems and noticed that when certain sensors heat up from the engine, they short internally, causing irratic signals.
Just a few things to think about
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Thanks for the heads up, those are some things to think about!
Still can't figure out what it is!
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Neither can I... going to replace the ENTIRE exhaust system and see if that helps. I think it has a big leak before the o2. Maybe in the manifold or at the collector. Will keep you guys updated.
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Neither can I... going to replace the ENTIRE exhaust system and see if that helps. I think it has a big leak before the o2. Maybe in the manifold or at the collector. Will keep you guys updated.
I am getting ready to say F it and order a s50 motor :(
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Ive been having the same problem with the idle... But something interesting happen to me on my way to work this morning... In the morning i go to put a little oil in (i have an oil leak) and i head off to work... THe thing is the car was idling beautifully, perfect, all the way to work, never stumbled once (something that has never happened since i bought it). Then when im on my last light all of the sudden smoke starts coming out my hood, obviously i get frustrated reach my parking and open the hood... At first i was scared shitless there was oil all over the place, but then i noticed that it was because i forgot to put the oil cap back on.... Because i left the oil cap off, the car idled perfect.... I dunno maybe this could help you guys out as to finding the solution.
Sean
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Ive been having the same problem with the idle... But something interesting happen to me on my way to work this morning... In the morning i go to put a little oil in (i have an oil leak) and i head off to work... THe thing is the car was idling beautifully, perfect, all the way to work, never stumbled once (something that has never happened since i bought it). Then when im on my last light all of the sudden smoke starts coming out my hood, obviously i get frustrated reach my parking and open the hood... At first i was scared shitless there was oil all over the place, but then i noticed that it was because i forgot to put the oil cap back on.... Because i left the oil cap off, the car idled perfect.... I dunno maybe this could help you guys out as to finding the solution.
Sean
I don't understand how it could run "better" that way. I drove my 325e with the oil cap off and it felt like i had 1/10 the normal power and felt like the engine... well had a big hole in the top.. sure enough it did, oil cap is major. It does bring the idle down quiet a bit if you run the car without the oil cap. Start by cleaning or replacing the ICV
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I cleaned the ICV about a week ago (maybe i should think about replacing it)... and i kid you not, the engine was running smooth,,, as for the power, i didnt really check cause i was kinda scared over the smoke coming from my hood... so i kinda pampered it all the way to work
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Any chance that someone has blocked the crankcase vent off. It's that hose that runs from the top left corner of the valve cover, under the intake manifold as part of the nest of hoses there, and then up to some point between the AFM and throttle body.
Ive been having the same problem with the idle... But something interesting happen to me on my way to work this morning... In the morning i go to put a little oil in (i have an oil leak) and i head off to work...
Sean
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Maybe, im gonna vent the crank to the atmosphere and take a ride to see how she does...
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Is it possible there is a vacuum leak at the oil cap? Like maybe the cap isn't sealing correctly or something? This is weird... and I can't wait for someone (maybe me) to figure this thing out.
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I am getting ready to say F it and order a s50 motor :(
me too, im getting frustrated as well
Is it possible there is a vacuum leak at the oil cap? Like maybe the cap isn't sealing correctly or something? This is weird... and I can't wait for someone (maybe me) to figure this thing out.
i have a new cap on, well at least one from an engine that runs fine. i wonder what the "golden key" will be when this is all figured out.
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^LOL I don't know... but it's getting comical how many of us have this problem. I bought another e30 so I might just drive up to Terry Sayther in austin and drop the car off there and say "fix this issue." Then just leave it there for however long it takes to figure it out. :)
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get a detailed report of what he did and what he found the problem to be if you ever send it in, i also might be looking into another m42, however i dont want this pig to start doing this crazy shit, so id like to avoid the problem before finding it killing me every morning.
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^LOL... it is pretty frustrating isn't it?
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Interesting development....
My buddy has a 88 5 series, and he starting having the same exact problems as us, i mean down to the duration of the problem lasting. He came to me for advice and I had none, since he works at a repair shop he decided to figure it out....he said he replaced everything we have pretty much then he went to check the fuses...he noticed that there is a spade that the wires go into on the bottom of his fuse box so so he decided to check the connections...he pulled the box apart and the metal to the fuel pump had backed of the spade ( I haven't a clue what he is talking about since I haven't looked at our cars yet) he made the connection repair, problem solved. He said he has "two" fuel pumps, one that primes when the car starts and the main one, the priming fuel pump wire was the one that backed off, and on his car its the one that builds the pressure upon start up, or so you can start the car, and after a min or so it cuts off and the main pump is now supplying the engine....I am going to give it a try and see what i find out...wish me luck!!!
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Interesting development....
My buddy has a 88 5 series, and he starting having the same exact problems as us, i mean down to the duration of the problem lasting. He came to me for advice and I had none, since he works at a repair shop he decided to figure it out....he said he replaced everything we have pretty much then he went to check the fuses...he noticed that there is a spade that the wires go into on the bottom of his fuse box so so he decided to check the connections...he pulled the box apart and the metal to the fuel pump had backed of the spade ( I haven't a clue what he is talking about since I haven't looked at our cars yet) he made the connection repair, problem solved. He said he has "two" fuel pumps, one that primes when the car starts and the main one, the priming fuel pump wire was the one that backed off, and on his car its the one that builds the pressure upon start up, or so you can start the car, and after a min or so it cuts off and the main pump is now supplying the engine....I am going to give it a try and see what i find out...wish me luck!!!
Well, FWIW here is the backside of our fusebox, it is a PITA to get to:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/2006TopBanana/RnPw105gTyI/AAAAAAAABgY/EgfX05vNh-w/s800/P6167612.JPG)
EDIT: Oh, and we only have one pump, the in-tank one.
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Holly fuck...it worked
I pulled the fuse box appart and the metal that goes to the fuel pump fuse was off the wire, i made a temporary fix since I was in my school parking lot. I will have to fix it properly this weekend but I haven't had a problem all day long!
I will give proper discription and write up if this holds out through a 24 hour period :)
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HOLY SH*T MORE DETAILS PLEASE!!!
You will be my hero... I'll send you roses and other assorted flowers... ;)
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Holly fuck...it worked
I pulled the fuse box appart and the metal that goes to the fuel pump fuse was off the wire, i made a temporary fix since I was in my school parking lot. I will have to fix it properly this weekend but I haven't had a problem all day long!
I will give proper discription and write up if this holds out through a 24 hour period :)
So, based on the above pic of the underside of the fuse box, which connection was the problematic area? Why would the wire have backed off, is the factory wire too short, or do you think it backed off due to age/shrinkage/vibrations?
Do post up more "tech" about how you removed the fuse panel and the fix.
How's it been running since your post, any issues?
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So, based on the above pic of the underside of the fuse box, which connection was the problematic area? Why would the wire have backed off, is the factory wire too short, or do you think it backed off due to age/shrinkage/vibrations?
Do post up more "tech" about how you removed the fuse panel and the fix.
How's it been running since your post, any issues?
There are two areas that need attention on my car, the area with the stubs sticking out, the cluster of 5 and the center of the fuse panel to the left, the holes there one of the metal pieces had backed out of the hole.
I unscrewed the fuse box from where you can see the screws, it just came right out for me, be careful you don't yank the wires completely out of the back of the fuse panel. I think that over time the vibration, and the wires being pulled on might have caused this. Seems that the factory wire is to short and the connection was weak from the factory, there is a lot of tension on those wires, i also grab the cluster of wires and traced them back to the area of the wiring harness/where they disappeared and pulled on them to get a little more slack.
As for todays driving, it only hesitated once on start up and that was for 5 seconds than it just smoothed out, its been running a lot better as well with no rough idle. I know my connection that I made yesterday for a repair using a zippo lighter and the existing wires didn't hold but i did fix that metal that had backed out and that seemed to help as well. I think that metal goes directly to were the fuse plugs into. I will take pictures this weekend I promise. and do a step by step, but I am in the middle of mid terms and can't really worry about this now :cool:
Just go out there and give it a shot, whats the worst that can happen, it doesn't work? I am still replacing the ICV and hoses as maintenance along with plugs this weekend. I know the ICV valve needs to be replaced anyways, its old and beyond cleaning. And I do know that is part of the problem Didn't another member in our post just post the word "fuel"....or was that on R3vlimited? I might go as far as putting a new pump in.
It does make sense though, even though we don't have two pumps we still have a priming system, and if that doesn't build the pressure properly until the main supply of fuel is fed then I could see how this would happen because every time I "pushed" the car through this it always ran lean, then really rich, then it was normal.
Anyway, I hope this helps and this fixes the problem for good. Because you know what I have been able to enjoy my car a whole hell of a lot more in the past 14+ hours :) I took the long way home last night, parked my car, then walked up stairs took a piss and went back out just start it up and go to 7-11 :)
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Going to try this today... worth a shot.
You're right... being able to just walk out to the car and have it start right up is a nice bonus. I've been enjoying that with the 325 I bought and wished my 318 was the same. Maybe now it will be.
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Any updates Burn? My brother in law got me sick and I haven't been able to work on the car...
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btt... for updates.
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well I am afraid the problem is back. It is not as bad as it was before (wow english) but it still happens. I checked the fuse box again and the wire is fine after my repair job. So I am at a loss...however I did get this bit of information.
I emailed a local BMWCCA member and he knew of a gentlemen that is very knowledgeable in BMWs and writes a tech section in a very popular BMW magazine. Any how, after a very rude email reply back from him he did give some insight that might make sense to me but I don't know if would apply to everyone's problem, he said:
"After all of the above, my gut feeling is this engine is losing residual fuel pressure. Once again, there is a procedure for testing residual fuel pressure in the Bentley E36 3 Series Service Manual. Loss of residual fuel pressure is almost always caused by leaking fuel injectors, a faulty fuel pump, or both. Now, if he wants to replace the fuel injectors, it's "back to the dealer" for original BMW fuel injectors, please. Do not compound the problem by installing some hokey "wowie-neato" super duper fuel injectors. Stick with the OEM."
As you can see the tone of his email is laughable at best, and his name and magazine will remain nameless. But his theory does make sense given the problems/symptoms I described to him.
Burn
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Please do not pooh-pooh the advise from this person. I recognize his writing, and while he is not always correct, he has a lot of knowledge and experience and usually is very helpful in solving this kind of problem.
Stick a fuel pressure gauge on it and let us know if that helps. (It didn't help mine.)
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I have the exact same symptoms and it's driving me nut's !! if I create a small vaccum leak the car will actulay idle perfectly in a cold start mode otherwise its exactly as you describe ... Im testing the injectors tonight by pulling the fuel pump fuse at operating temp and leting the car die out and then let the car sit over night with no fuel presure on the rail and try and start again and see if she behaves the same way for the first 3 mins of warm up
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Has anybody tried a new water temperature sender? (The front one that goes to the engine computer.)
I have one ordered, and I let you know how it goes.
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Has anybody tried a new water temperature sender? (The front one that goes to the engine computer.)
I have one ordered, and I let you know how it goes.
yes car performance went up a little when engine warmed up
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Injectors are not my problem... damn!
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^LOL... that guy doesn't sound very helpful. I'd reply back with "thanks for nothing."
Tried new temp sensor, no help. Tried fuel pressure gauge, tested fuel system... no help.
My search... continues.
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Unfortunately, a new temp sensor did not help the problem.:(
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I found my problem at a intake gasket ... good luck for the rest of you
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I was just reading over the pages of this post and thinking about a couple things.
I read Burnall was having problems when hitting the gas, while I think it will help your idle by replacing your ICV, I suspect the rest of your problem could be your crank position sensor (this is what ignition is based upon in our motronic 1.7, i THINK, not 100%) however I had hopes that your fusebox underside fix was going to be the cure.
Also, Mark D (EAT in Canada) has a service that does ECU fixing, I did not see ours on his list, but who knows.
I had a weird missfire issue about a year ago, car would start cold, warm up and run well.
After an hour of running (seemingly long time) the engine would missfire at ~4600 rpm, almost seeming like hitting fuel cutoff/engine speed limiter.
As long as you didnt rev that high, it would be fine, no matter of the throttle position.
Over a few minutes more time, the missfire would drop to ~3500 start doing it at that RPM as the engine was warm.
Replaced: Plugs, Wires, tested all 4 coils. No fix, then replaced camshaft pos sensor, this seemingly fixed it for about two days, then it was back.
FINALLY, RESEATING my ECU connector in the glovebox (just taking it off, and putting it back on) fixed the problem.
Strange world here :)
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Ok, I have now declared that this problem has gotten personal. This means that I have the symptoms and I have been unable to fix it. It also means that I'm pissed and I'm not giving up till its fixed.:mad:
Here are my symptoms:
1.) Car runs great except for a start of the engine when the engine is warm.
2.) After a cold start, the car runs great.
3.) If you start the engine when it is warm, the engine will idle great, but if you try to move, it misses badly and may stall. It will do this for approximately 20-40 seconds and then it will run great.
Here what I know:
1.) It's not the spark plugs (New)
2.) It's not the fuel pump. (New, and it maintains 43 psi, while the rough running is occurring.)
3.) It's not the fuel pressure regulator. (See 2.) above.)
4.) It's not a vacuum leak. (All new hoses)
5.) The event is not caused by too much fuel. (I have shut the engine down when the rough running occurs and pulled the plugs. They are dry.)
6.) It's not the engine temperature sender. (New)
7.) The coils have the correct resistance.
Here's what I need help on:
Something is turning off the fuel injectors intermittently to cause the rough running. So what can cause this to happen? (i.e. engine thinks its in a overspeed condition and cuts ignition, lose power to ecu, etc.)
Ok, what's turning off the injectors?
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Don't know what's turning off your injectors... but here's what I have changed in my quest for a normal warm start. Maybe it will help you diagnose. Keep us updated.
1. ICV (replaced)
2. Vacuum Leaks (did TB heater delete and replaced hoses)
3. o2 Sensor (replaced)
4. Plugs & Wires (replaced as part of maintenance)
5. Fuel Injectors (mustang 19#)
6. Exhaust Header Gasket (had a leak)
7. AFM (replaced)
8. Engine Temp Sensor (replaced)
9. Throttle Position Sensor (replaced)
10. ECU swapped (known good unit)
Also had the engine smoke tested and fuel pressure checked. Both turned up good. In the other thread there is a possible fix by replacing the check valve at the fuel tank? I may try that one since the engine only did it AFTER my motor swap. This leads me to believe it is something external to the engine entirely.
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The check valve is a good idea, but wasnt that for a different problem?
Not like it couldn't carry over though :)
Is this more like a fuel or control ignition (not spark) issue?
Have we popped and swapped the crank position sensor and coolant temp sensor?
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Has anybody capped off the the fuel tank purge valve to see if its leaking?
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I am replacing the injectors/FPR/Switching the car to a dual fuel pump (I don't know the specifics but my buddy has it in his 318) and changing out the ICV this weekend, i will see where that leaves me....hopefully not on the side of the road.
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^As always keep us updated.
I unfortunately have been too busy with work to try any other possible solutions...
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Not sure if the problem I'm experiencing is the same as those here, but here it goes; I started noticing a slight "stumble" while driving at highway speeds, where power was lost momentarily. Some days were worse than others. It normally would stay idling, but a couple times it would stall, but it is not always steady . Today, it got really bad. The stumble or hesitation was almost occurring all the time and I am now seeing the check engine flicker on then go out multiple times, along with a loss of power. This is a new problem in the last month or so, but it has gotten really worse. The plugs are newish (~10K), O2 new, new Cat.
I plan on checking the plugs and wires, and coils (although my recollection is that they are pretty hard to test conclusively). I plan on checking the plugs and wires, and coils (although my recollection is that they are pretty hard to test conclusively). The problem was so bad the Am that the car is barely drivable…
Any ideas? Thanks!
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same problem i have been dealing with it for about a year its detonation upon start up but i can't figure it out i have not really tried to extensively to fix it but i have replaced the ICV and vacuum lines. and tested the m.a.f. if i disconnect this connector that is under the plastic piece against the fire wall that covers your harness the problem stops but the car has no power. the connector is a single wire black with gray tracer or gray with black tracer can't remember the colors
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hey if it is your fuel pump not sending the fuel rail enough fuel for start up couldn't you just turn the key to the on position wait for the beeps to stop then do it again and maybe one more time. would that not prime the shit out of your injectors enough that it has enough fuel for start up and doesn't create that lean condition and keep the engine from detonating upon start up
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if i disconnect this connector that is under the plastic piece against the fire wall that covers your harness the problem stops but the car has no power. the connector is a single wire black with gray tracer or gray with black tracer can't remember the colors
What is that wire for? I had taken the cabin air fan out to remove some trash and when I was putting it all back together noticed that it was apart. I hooked them back up but can't say for sure if I knocked them apart when I worked on it or if they were apart before I started. Seems like this all started after that. May have to unhook and see what happens.
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hey if it is your fuel pump not sending the fuel rail enough fuel for start up couldn't you just turn the key to the on position wait for the beeps to stop then do it again and maybe one more time. would that not prime the shit out of your injectors enough that it has enough fuel for start up and doesn't create that lean condition and keep the engine from detonating upon start up
There are 2 pumps, one that primes the system when you turn the key to on, and the primary that starts running when the engine starts up.
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There are fuel relay's under that, you might want to investigate further on that wiring.
There are E30 factory wiring diagrams available on the net :)
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I hearby declare the problem in my 318is to be FIXED. (Or to be now so minor that I'm going to choose to ignore the very minor nature of what's left)
Here are the symptoms I used to have:
Restarting the engine warm would result in the engine starting instantly and idling nicely, but then it would shortly result in a 30-60 second interval of missing, coughing and sometimes the engine would die.
I have found two causes for this issue:
1.) The ICV (Idle Control Valve) was backwards! There is an arrow cast into the body of the ICV. This arrow must point "down". (The flow must be away from the valve cover.)
2.) A defective TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). I replaced this sensor.
The result is that I can now start the engine warm without worrying about the car not going anywhere for 30-60 seconds. It still might hesitate for a second, but it goes away almost instantaneously. That's close enough for me.
I hope this fixes everyone else's issue.
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I hearby declare the problem in my 318is to be FIXED. (Or to be now so minor that I'm going to choose to ignore the very minor nature of what's left)
Here are the symptoms I used to have:
Restarting the engine warm would result in the engine starting instantly and idling nicely, but then it would shortly result in a 30-60 second interval of missing, coughing and sometimes the engine would die.
I have found two causes for this issue:
1.) The ICV (Idle Control Valve) was backwards! There is an arrow cast into the body of the ICV. This arrow must point "down". (The flow must be away from the valve cover.)
2.) A defective TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). I replaced this sensor.
The result is that I can now start the engine warm without worrying about the car not going anywhere for 30-60 seconds. It still might hesitate for a second, but it goes away almost instantaneously. That's close enough for me.
I hope this fixes everyone else's issue.
Your ICV definately works best when installed correctly, others report odd behaviour with it reversed.
Good to see the TPS helped, they definately play a roll in the process :)
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What is that wire for? I had taken the cabin air fan out to remove some trash and when I was putting it all back together noticed that it was apart. I hooked them back up but can't say for sure if I knocked them apart when I worked on it or if they were apart before I started. Seems like this all started after that. May have to unhook and see what happens.
That wire tells the DME whether or not a cat is installed. It should be disconnected if you have a cat in the car.
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bump for anything else........nothing worked
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K Im looking for ideas also developed same problems recently.