M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: Boyracer on August 21, 2008, 08:09:31 AM
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Ok, this is the continuation for my first thread about my project "Buildup: My quest for NA 180 hp" http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2971
This quote is taken from one of my posts in original thread:
Major rethink on my plans. There will be two engines:
Engine 1. (current one on car)
- Shrick copy cams
- Motronic chip optimized for Shrick cams
- lightened flywheel
- 2.5" custom made exhaust + cat
Should be around 165-170 hp when ready. This engine will be put on storage once engine 2 is ready.
Engine 2. (one I am going to build based on acquired bottom end)
- Wössner forged pistons (comp ratio around 12.5)
- bored block to 86 mm
- well balanced crankshaft
- ebay CNC con rods/stock con rods with lightening and shot peening
- S50B30 ITB's
- Mildly modified cylinder head with possible 35 mm intake valves
- Glass/carbon fiber airbox
- Solid valve lifter/follower conversion
- bit stiffer valve springs
- Dbilas, Cat Cams etc cams around 300 degrees duration
- VEMS or Megasquirt engine management
- lightened flywheel from engine 1.
- 2.5" custom made exhaust + cat from engine 1.
Difficult to say about power... Engine should be ok to rev as high as 8500, perhaps even 9000. Honda has similar sized engines and they produce 180 to 240 hp on road trim, altough they have VTEC but on the other hand they do not have ITB's.
I think I now consider engine 1 to be ready, all modifications apart from lightened flywheel have been done.
This new thread is about engine 2. I hope to start the build soon and have engine atleast part ready next spring. Power target is way too optimistic for 1882 cm3 engine but there is always possibility for miracle to happen ie. I could find M47 crankshaft from somewhere upping the displacement to about 2050 cm3... Then 280 hp is propably possible but then the engine most certainly is not street legal.
When I started the project I had a goal to keep the car street legal and in everyday use but that has now changed. Car has no interior anymore, it has bucket seat (only one), soon 6 point harness and it has been relegated from daily driver duties to track day car. I try to keep it road legal but at some point is might not be possible anymore.
So, this is it then... I will report here the progress I have made with the engine 2 in same way as with engine 1. It will be long and expensive but also interesting road ahead :)
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I was playing until now with a great virtual engine simulator (@ builder's shop) for my turbo engine... and now I NEED to go there to play to see if your goals can be achieved with those mods :D
( I sniff HUGE head work to be done) :)
EDIT: first result says: piston speed VERY high! you will need to reach 8500rpm and even more to have that power!
Huge props for the project ( and passion) !
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This could be the first attempt that I've seen to replicate S42 type figures!?
Madness :D Good luck.
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MM reached those values in a S14 with 13,5:1 CR, but that has 37mm inlet valves and 33 exhaust... 35mm is really the maximum for intake valve in our M4x?
but thinking that S42 used 35mm/32mm valves, it not worth the money!
Last evolution of s42 used 5mm steam valves...
how much details have those documents that you bought time ago on ebay? in terms of plenum size, runner lenght and those things that nobody wrote on the net?:rolleyes:
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MM reached those values in a S14 with 13,5:1 CR, but that has 37mm inlet valves and 33 exhaust... 35mm is really the maximum for intake valve in our M4x?
S14 had far bigger bore then M42/S42 so it could also accomodate bigger valves too. Here's some S42 data (I have posted these earlier):
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/2395594069_70197ff028_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2103/2395595035_bb283beb85_b.jpg)
S42 had 35 mm inlet / 32 mm outlet valves.
280 hp from 2,05 liters is veeeery challenging task (and right now I am missing the crankshaft to give me even that displacement). If I don't get the crankshaft I must be very happy with 220-240 hp.
The guy from who I bought the forged pistons developed S50B30 to give 375 hp (around 120 hp/ liter) with reworked head, larger valves etc. If I could reach same level of tune I would still be at 240-250 hp range. BUT! He only revved the engine to 7500 (peak power was at 7000) and I hope to have some 1000 rpm more in use which always helps. The problem is to get enough flow from the cylinder head to support such revs.
I think 8500 rpm is reachable with good quality parts and careful planning and assembly. The areas that I am more worried about are cylinder head cooling and bottom end lubrication. S42 had modified cooling system which had 4 coolant in or out ports on cylinder head connected by metal pipe just below intake port. How can you replicate that? Also, what kind of modifications bottom end needs to sustain high revs reliable? New oilways on crankshaft, oil squirters on block walls? Lots of questions!
I need to split this to smaller tasks, if I wait until everything is ready it will be a long time before the engine runs! So I have thought about plan like this:
Fall/winter 2008:
1. ITB's ready (adapter plate started already, need airbox etc)
2. Megasquirt engine control ready
Those I can already use and test with my current engine to see how they work.
Spring/summer 2009
3. Bottom end (forged pistons, block boring, new con rods, M47 crankshaft if possible, general overhaul)
4. Clutch (lightened stock flywheel and stock clutch or custom flywheel and multiplate clutch)
I can use this new bottom end with stock head I have now with ITB's and Mega.
God knows when?!?!?!
5. Cylinder head (bigger valves, porting, long duration cams, stiffer springs, new guides etc etc etc).
This is simply the most important and expensive bit of all and it must be just right :eek:
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Me like this a lot...
Btw, check this site out. They use M42 engine on their Roadsport car. It generates around as N/A 250hp.
http://www.prospeedracing.net/
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Any idea what ITB's they used?
These ? http://www.specialmotors.fi/lapparungot.htm
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Any idea what ITB's they used?
These ? http://www.specialmotors.fi/lapparungot.htm
They had those ITB's and I bought them.
Now they use TWM ITB's.
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Btw, check this site out. They use M42 engine on their Roadsport car. It generates around as N/A 250hp.
http://www.prospeedracing.net/
They also perform preparations for M42/M20 engines :)
I think that team is in Ahvenisto track tomorrow taking part to Historic Grand Race. I'm going there too and with a bit of luck I get to chat with them and ask about details.
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They also perform preparations for M42/M20 engines :)
I think that team is in Ahvenisto track tomorrow taking part to Historic Grand Race. I'm going there too and with a bit of luck I get to chat with them and ask about details.
They are not at Ahvenisto tomorrow because their engine broke up at Vauhtiajot.
Conrod broked and maked a few holes to the block.
I know the driver/team well.
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Hi! Any idea whats the size of the stock valves for M42 engine? Is it 33 or 35mm?
Also, I am wonder what if we increase the lift instead of using a larger valve? Will that help?
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Hi! Any idea whats the size of the stock valves for M42 engine? Is it 33 or 35mm?
stock valves are 33mm intake/30,5mm exhaust with 7mm steam in e30, 6mm steam same valve diameter in e36 M42 (only e36 '92 year had 7mm steams) and M44.
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They had those ITB's and I bought them.
Now they use TWM ITB's.
I asked some information from the company who manufactures those ITB's. I am interesting to know how's the quality etc. I am looking for a set of ITB's for my other german made project. Any idea how those ITB's work on charged engine's ? Are your ITB's separate body ones? (that's the type i need) That company has not answered so far my questions i asked almost a week ago... :(
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Also, I am wonder what if we increase the lift instead of using a larger valve? Will that help?
That goes without saying, new camshaft will increase lift too. But there is a point where increasing lift does nothing to flow anymore, intake port is flowing as much as it is going to flow anyway.
But when you increase valve diameter you can also increase diameter of intake port. And unlike increasing lift (that only really helps on high lift area), increasing valve size really helps on low lifts.
So in ideal world you should try to increase both lift and valve diameter :)
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That goes without saying, new camshaft will increase lift too. But there is a point where increasing lift does nothing to flow anymore, intake port is flowing as much as it is going to flow anyway.
But when you increase valve diameter you can also increase diameter of intake port. And unlike increasing lift (that only really helps on high lift area), increasing valve size really helps on low lifts.
So in ideal world you should try to increase both lift and valve diameter :)
Oh IC. Thanks for the explaination.
I am curious about how you are getting 35mm valves for the M42. Cause I remember reading from another thread that M62 valves are 35mm but shorter in length, thus it won't fit.
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I am curious about how you are getting 35mm valves for the M42. Cause I remember reading from another thread that M62 valves are 35mm but shorter in length, thus it won't fit.
Yes M62 valves are few mm's shorter than M42 valves...
There are few main concerns and possible solutions:
1. Valve springs. They need suitable installed height to have right amount of seat pressure. Also, coil bind must be avoided (situation where spring is compressed so much its coils touch eachother and spring becomes solid). When valve is shorter, spring plate at the end of valve is closer to cylinder head causing spring to be shorter than normal, causing higher seat pressure (well, harder to have leaks which is good but also higher stresses on valve) and smaller lift before coil bind occurs.
- Aftermarket springs with different lenght etc could be fitted
- Cylinder head could be machined so that springs will be located same amount deeper in cylinder head than valves are shorter
- Different spring plates
2. Lifter / camshaft clearance. When valves are say 2 mm shorter lifters will be 2 mm deeper in the cylinder head. Hydraulic lifter *might* be able to adjust that away but many agressive camshafts also have smaller base profile so the difference might be 5 mm and that will not be adjusted automatically away. With solid lifters you need to adjust the difference away by using shims.
- Really only one solution here... Solid lifters with sufficient shim adjustment range.
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- Really only one solution here... Solid lifters with sufficient shim adjustment range.
Do you know where to get them?
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http://www.rosten-performance.com/
They are for VW but lifter diameter is 35 mm and VW lightweight hydraulic lifters can be used on M42 so...
I just need to find out if the stud height inside the lifter is ok with shorter M62 valves. I guess the stud cam be ground down a bit. Shims have thickness of 3 mm and they are used to finetune the valve clearance.
Those are 14€ each which is about 1/4th of what Dbilas asks :eek:
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Yes M62 valves are few mm's shorter than M42 valves...
There are few main concerns and possible solutions:
1. Valve springs. They need suitable installed height to have right amount of seat pressure. Also, coil bind must be avoided (situation where spring is compressed so much its coils touch eachother and spring becomes solid). When valve is shorter, spring plate at the end of valve is closer to cylinder head causing spring to be shorter than normal, causing higher seat pressure (well, harder to have leaks which is good but also higher stresses on valve) and smaller lift before coil bind occurs.
- Aftermarket springs with different lenght etc could be fitted
- Cylinder head could be machined so that springs will be located same amount deeper in cylinder head than valves are shorter
- Different spring plates
2. Lifter / camshaft clearance. When valves are say 2 mm shorter lifters will be 2 mm deeper in the cylinder head. Hydraulic lifter *might* be able to adjust that away but many agressive camshafts also have smaller base profile so the difference might be 5 mm and that will not be adjusted automatically away. With solid lifters you need to adjust the difference away by using shims.
- Really only one solution here... Solid lifters with sufficient shim adjustment range.
Thanks for the explaination. I am very keen to convert my intake to 35mm valves as well. Do let us know your results.
Btw, one more thing. How about exhaust valve? Any plans to convert them to larger ones as well? Say 32mm ones which is the same as S42?
Thanks!
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s50b32 and s54 uses 35mm intake / 30,5mm exhaust valves ;)
what is their lenght (intake)?
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s50b32 and s54 uses 35mm intake / 30,5mm exhaust valves ;)
what is their lenght (intake)?
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5551
From left:
M62B44 35 mm / 6 mm
M42B18 33 mm / 6 mm
S50B30 34 mm / 7 mm
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/10/71/1101071_large.jpg)
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/10/72/1101072_large.jpg)
Good luck fitting S50B30 valves to M42 :D
No idea about S54 or S65 valves unfortunately. Might buy one of each for measurements, they seem to be some 15€ / each.
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I was speaking of s50b32, they are 6mm stems, but specs for euro ///M cars are near impossible to know without buy them :(
I'll keep searching...
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I was speaking of s50b32, they are 6mm stems, but specs for euro ///M cars are near impossible to know without buy them :(
I'll keep searching...
I think the problem is less of the stem diameter of the S50 valves, but more of a length issue. They are just huge valves in every dimension!
If you do come across any resources, I'd be appreciative if you see valve lengths of any of these engines: http://www.m42club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=51188&postcount=36
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I just ordered some parts, on the list was these:
2008 E92 M3 S65 Intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 838 293
diameter: 35.7 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 43 gram
cost: 15.00 euro
2005 E60 M5 S85 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 833 775
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 36 gram
cost: 16.40 euro
2004 E60 545i N62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 541 555
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.92 mm
weight: 42 gram
cost: 13.70 euro
So after that we should have some solid data on those valves. I did not order any 6 mm valve stem parts because I think we already know the closest 35 mm valve there is (M62B44). If there are suitable 5 mm stem valves, then I need to find out if I can find suitable valve guides too.
Earlier today I asked from local cylinder head tuning place an estimate how much it would cost to make custom intake valves from Ferrea steel blanks... Answer is 50€ / valve. That would mean 400€ for intake, 800€ for whole valvetrain unless exhaust valves are even more expensive. No thanks!
So if you can use OEM valves, you can have big savings...
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Thats cheap ;) You know that red BLE-XXX E30 M3 M5 conversion? Just headwork was around 8000 euros.
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I just ordered some parts, on the list was these:
2008 E92 M3 S65 Intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 838 293
diameter: 35.7 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 43 gram
cost: 15.00 euro
2005 E60 M5 S85 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 833 775
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 36 gram
cost: 16.40 euro
2004 E60 545i N62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 541 555
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.92 mm
weight: 42 gram
cost: 13.70 euro
So after that we should have some solid data on those valves. I did not order any 6 mm valve stem parts because I think we already know the closest 35 mm valve there is (M62B44). If there are suitable 5 mm stem valves, then I need to find out if I can find suitable valve guides too.
Earlier today I asked from local cylinder head tuning place an estimate how much it would cost to make custom intake valves from Ferrea steel blanks... Answer is 50€ / valve. That would mean 400€ for intake, 800€ for whole valvetrain unless exhaust valves are even more expensive. No thanks!
So if you can use OEM valves, you can have big savings...
Do let us know if you are able to get those valves into the head successfully.
Regarding the valves, I think it should not be an issure if they are too long. Sounds like a machine shop with some CNC equipment could easily cut the stem and create the grooves for it.
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Btw, whats the length of the M42 and the M62 valve?
Thanks!
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Do let us know if you are able to get those valves into the head successfully.
Regarding the valves, I think it should not be an issure if they are too long. Sounds like a machine shop with some CNC equipment could easily cut the stem and create the grooves for it.
Just got a call from BMW service, they have my parts ready for pick up. They had to create some new items to their information system because I am apparently first person in whole Scandinavia to order some of those parts (I suspect M3/M5 valves) :D
Will post photos and measurements of them here next week.
Received yesterday Schrott 6-point race harness for the car, used and FIA validation is now obsolete but condition is very nice. Bought also OMP 350 mm 90 mm deep suede covered race steering wheel with adapter for E36.
Studied a bit Megasquirt and VEMS. I would go for mega in an instant but VEMS has vastly better knock sensor support built in and I really, really would like to use knock sensors with 12,6 CR...
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Wow! 12.6 CR is very high though. That would be well in racing engines category!
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Yes, it is about the same as in S42. But long duration camshafts (280+) will lower dynamic CR because valves close later when piston has already moved upwards, this reduces the effective CR.
Not sure if the static CR will be exactly 12,6 though. That is what Wössner tells these pistons have in S50B30. I suppose M42 combustion chamber shape is quite close but I need to perform some volume measurements. I think slightly thicker cylinder head gasket helps if CR seems too high.
Stock M42 piston on left, my Wössner pistons on right. Easy to see where the higher CR comes from :p
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2008/woessner.jpg)
Some decent priced forged H profile M42 con rods on german ebay now. But if I buy them I cannot use the M47 crank if I happen to find such elusive treasure...
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forged H profile M42 con rods on german ebay now. But if I buy them I cannot use the M47 crank if I happen to find such elusive treasure...
Great pics of pistons... there is a M47N crank at 170km from my home:rolleyes:
too far for now that I don't need it:D
if it was from a M47 it would be here today, only to see it :D
(asked him today price and wear status)
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ewwww, sharp edges galore....will be watching this one closely I like learning :)
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forged H profile M42 con rods on german ebay now. But if I buy them I cannot use the M47 crank if I happen to find such elusive treasure...
Just contact Ojennus, he'll fabricate you suitable rods. Price will be around 850-900€/set.
I have bought from him several sets for Porsche engines.
Here's Wössner/PO rod setup for Porsche
(http://www.9xxfin.com/forum/files/hilut.jpg)
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Ok, checked the valves I got last week.
M62 is still the closest match for M42 6 mm stem valve.
N62 valve is even shorter than M62 and there is little gain over M62 valve in any area. It has nicely thinned valve stem however.
5 mm stem S85 and S65 valves seem identical in appearance and measurements. They are somewhat longer than M42 valves and use only one groove collets. I haven't measured their mass but they are quite light indeed. They also have extra cut on valve backside to help flow.
M42B18 (baseline):
33,05 mm
5,95 mm
106,32 mm
M64B44
34,93 mm (+1,88 mm)
5,96 mm
104,12 mm (-2,20 mm)
N62B??
34,88 mm (+1,83 mm)
5,97 / 5,03 mm
100,04 mm (-6,28 mm)
S65/S85
35,47 mm (+2,54 mm)
4,96 mm
111,64 mm (+5,32 mm)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2839382804_aaf2d9745c.jpg)
L to R: N62, M62, M42, 2 x S65/S85, S50B30
Clearly S65/S85 valves are superior parts, as they should be. Problems with them I can think of are:
1. Can solid lifters work with 5 mm longer valve stems then original valves?
2. Where can I find valve guides that fit M42 head and have 5 mm stem valves?
3. To get full benefit from lighter weight of intake valves, exhaust valves must be changed too = extra expense
4. New valve spring plates and collets must be purchased = extra expense
I shall study this further.
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Checked ETK and it seems that S65 collets, springs and spring plates are about 7€ extra / valve, cheap! Exhaust side valves are about double the price of intake valves (15€ / 30€) which is not too bad.
That stuff is also light, weight saving combined with M42 solid lifter would allow revving to around 8800 RPM (as my stock M42 revs regularly to 7200 rpm) IF S65 valve springs are of similar stiffness as M42 stock, which I doubt however as S65 stuff is lighter and require less stiff spring.
I think I will order S65 valve spring for rate and lenght measurements plus collet and spring plate too. Then there is still the problem of valve guide...
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Ok, checked the valves I got last week.
M62 is still the closest match for M42 6 mm stem valve.
N62 valve is even shorter than M62 and there is little gain over M62 valve in any area. It has nicely thinned valve stem however.
5 mm stem S85 and S65 valves seem identical in appearance and measurements. They are somewhat longer than M42 valves and use only one groove collets. I haven't measured their mass but they are quite light indeed. They also have extra cut on valve backside to help flow.
M42B18 (baseline):
33,05 mm
5,95 mm
106,32 mm
M64B44
34,93 mm (+1,88 mm)
5,96 mm
104,12 mm (-2,20 mm)
N62B??
34,88 mm (+1,83 mm)
5,97 / 5,03 mm
100,04 mm (-6,28 mm)
S65/S85
35,47 mm (+2,54 mm)
4,96 mm
111,64 mm (+5,32 mm)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2839382804_aaf2d9745c.jpg)
L to R: N62, M62, M42, 2 x S65/S85, S50B30
Clearly S65/S85 valves are superior parts, as they should be. Problems with them I can think of are:
1. Can solid lifters work with 5 mm longer valve stems then original valves?
2. Where can I find valve guides that fit M42 head and have 5 mm stem valves?
3. To get full benefit from lighter weight of intake valves, exhaust valves must be changed too = extra expense
4. New valve spring plates and collets must be purchased = extra expense
I shall study this further.
Nice work you have with the valves!
Regarding the longer valve stems, how about cutting them shorter and then cut grove collars?
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Regarding the longer valve stems, how about cutting them shorter and then cut grove collars?
That could work with S65/S85 valves, they are just enough long for it. But I really have to find suitable solid lifters, they partly determine ideal valve stem length too.
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Why you hassle with expensive BMW valves.... We use Chevy big block valves (sodium filled) with our Porsche projects. Lots of different sizes available and machine shops can modify them if necessary to fit. Also what comes to valve guide, just use K-liners, they can be made to accept almost all valves. We have used K-liners many years with many different engines. With Chevy valves & K-liners you can save a lot of €€€ compared to BMW valves.
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Expensive? Heck, they are 1/3rd of the price of custom made Ferrea steel valves! :p
Do big block chevy's use 35 mm diameter valves with 6/5 mm stems? :rolleyes:
Also, liners do not help at all improving flow unlike bulleted race guides...
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Hi! Any updates regarding the valves? I am very interested in porting up my head and using larger valves.
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Are you going to build a turbo engine? If so, do not waste your money for bigger valves, concenrate to suitable pistons and rods for turbo use. On turbo engines valve size does not play that importnat role (depending the HP figures you are looking for). Just buy Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost", there is a lot good information you should consider if building a turbo engine.
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Are you going to build a turbo engine? If so, do not waste your money for bigger valves, concenrate to suitable pistons and rods for turbo use. On turbo engines valve size does not play that importnat role (depending the HP figures you are looking for). Just buy Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost", there is a lot good information you should consider if building a turbo engine.
Oh IC. Thanks for your info. Yes, I am building a supercharged engine and is targeting slightly over 300HP (400HP is every better). Do you think the stock valves will be able provide adequate air flow?
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Bad news everyone! :)
This project is going to sloooooooooooooooow down significantly due few sudden extra expenses:
1. M3 needs new differential and rear brakes = 3500€
2. My home will be subject to complete electrics, water, sewage and air overhaul = 30 000€
Sooo, in light of that, some sacrifices must be made regarding the engine build :(
I think I can get the following done:
1. ITB's
2. Megasquirt
3. high comp pistons + increased bore
Uber free flowing super revvy cylinderhead unfortunately must wait indefinitely as it is the most expensive single part :(
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I think I can get the following done:
1. ITB's
2. Megasquirt
3. high comp pistons + increased bore
Uber free flowing super revvy cylinderhead unfortunately must wait indefinitely as it is the most expensive single part :(
thankfully, the head will make that much more difference after already having 1, 2, and 3 above... and you'll still see some benefit from them without headwork. stay positive, you'll get there.
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Okay, finally something to report...
I'm about to order Megasquirt II PCB 3.0 kit + Innovate WB lambda to act as engine management system. I have also bought Motronic 1.7 ECU from which I can get connector that allows me to connect MS to OEM cable tree without major modifications. With a bit of luck (and modifications) I might be able to fit MS inside the motronic box too, neat! :)
ITB adapter needs only bit of port matching and it is usable. It also seems that I am able to get S50B30 intake trumpets from friend in decent price! They might need bit of modification (cut, shorten to match power band, reattach so that the trumpet mouths point more towards front, not directly down) to make them fit to engine bay with M42 since ITB throat angle is more horizontal compared to S50.
Air filter housing could come from E36 325 which should flow well enough and be a direct replacement to stock filter housing.
Then there is matter of building airbox which will most propably be carbon or glass fiber.
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By the way, does anybody know if OEM oil filter housing interfere with S50B30 ITB's? :confused:
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great to know about MS2 v.3;) I'm really thinking about the same exact version for next months and it would be nice to have some base maps:D
I'll post some pictures here about some cars with M3 throttles to let you see the clearance with filter/generator, I need only to find them in my backup hard-disk:rolleyes:
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Here they are:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/th_ITBsonhead7.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/?action=view¤t=ITBsonhead7.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/th_PICT0005small.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/?action=view¤t=PICT0005small.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/th_PICT0009small.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/?action=view¤t=PICT0009small.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/th_PICT0010b.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/?action=view¤t=PICT0010b.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/th_enginetogether1.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/?action=view¤t=enginetogether1.jpg)
stock trumpets will be way too pointed down.
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nice!
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Awesome! Awesome to the MAX!!!11!! :cool:
From those photos it is clear that stock oir filter clears ITB TPS.
It is also clear that unmodified stock intake trumpets will not easily clear the thingamagic that charges the battery. Notice the angle of intake trumpets compared to cylinder head top.
S50B30:
(http://www.racepad.com/proj/racepad_m3/euro_motor_project/S50_salvage_front[lg].jpg)
M42B18:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/enginetogether1.jpg)
This is how S50B30 intake trumpet looks liek (ignore the shorter one, it is for GT and EVO):
(http://www.racepad.com/proj/racepad_m3/euro_motor_project/s50_part_gt_funnels[lg].jpg)
I think I could cut the trumpet on the straight part right before it joins ITB and then reattach it to different angle :)
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how do they fit a s14 throttle body to a m42 head....??
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how do they fit a s14 throttle body to a m42 head....??
:confused: the one I posted were from a M3 E36... if you want to see how can S14 ITB be fitted I have pics of those too ;) but IMHO the S14s don't worth the hassle for their larger cylinder spacing...
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aha.. in this case.. the same question.. how fitting the m3e36 TB's to the m42 head? i know that they have the same shape of inlet.. but what about the holes for the bolts?? and YES post this pic of fitting the s14 TB's.. i have somewhere a pair...
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aha.. in this case.. the same question.. how fitting the m3e36 TB's to the m42 head? i know that they have the same shape of inlet.. but what about the holes for the bolts?? and YES post this pic of fitting the s14 TB's.. i have somewhere a pair...
M3 e36 itb you can enlarge one or two holes(ovalize) and these will bolt, then for the other bolts you need a bit of more diy :D
the s14 is all another thing, you need to build a flange that convoys the larger flow (100mm S14 cylinder spacing) to our head spacing. If it's enought thick you can bolt the flange to the M42 head and then the itbs to the flange (as the bolt holes are way off). Otherwise you can just weld the flange to the S14 ITB manifold, as pics(these were fitted in a E36, so you can understand the modded airbox to clear the brake reservoir):
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb13.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb13.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb14.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb14.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb4.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb4.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb5.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb5.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb6.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb6.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb6b.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb6b.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb8.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb8.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/th_itb9.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/nuvolarossa/itb/s14/?action=view¤t=itb9.jpg)
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I temporarily attached ITB's to my spare cylinder head so I could see what modifications are needed to make idle/vacuum and fuel rails.
S50B30 Idle/vacuum rail needs to be cut at 4 places and welded together in 2, also one pipe needs to be cut out and relocated. Material is 1-1,5 mm steel so welding with MIG/TIG is possible. After modification this rail connects directly to original mounting points on ITB's, neat.
M42B18 fuel rail fuel lines interfere with ITB's and they should be cut out and welded to different angles and even then there is need to manufacture attachments between rail and ITB mounting points. Not good.
S50B30 fuel rail needs to be cut at 2 places and welded on 1 to make it perfect fit. After that it should neatly connect to original mountings points on ITB's. Only question is, how sensible is it cut and weld up a thingie that has 3 bar fuel inside it :o
Seems liek I got buyer for my spare set of Shrick copy cams and my custom chip made for them so Megasquirt would be funded by that alone. Also, if I sell that custom chip, I really need to get Mega up and running, otherwise car is pretty useless :)
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Some progress!
Megasquirt II PCB 3.0 kit + Innovate LC1 wideband lambda arrived yesterday. I need to modify the kit a bit to support COP ignition and second trigger to support VR type sensor.
Fuel and vacuum rails have been cut up and wait welding. Intake trumpets have been shortened to suit higher rpm range of my engine compared to M3.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3553/3302751541_a3fe84e47e.jpg)
Next I need to cut up the ITB throttle axle to correct lenght.
I also ordered set of Dbilas valve springs which are 15% stiffer than OEM and also allow higher valve lift. With solid lifter conversion over 8000 RPM is possible safely, if only bottom end can take it. Solid lifters also require different camshaft which I need to get grinded.
One problem identified...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3303582552_4bdd1405a6.jpg)
When base circle of camshaft is decresed to increase lift, lifters rise higher in camshaft carrier bores and they can contact top of the bores. I think only way to avoid this is to modify the cam carriers, not easy :(
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One problem identified...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3303582552_4bdd1405a6.jpg)
When base circle of camshaft is decresed to increase lift, lifters rise higher in camshaft carrier bores and they can contact top of the bores. I think only way to avoid this is to modify the cam carriers, not easy :(
Do you have the cam yet? Are you going for a new billet cam or reground? I was talking to somebody about this recently and he was suggesting either using a new cam with the original base circle (i.e from Catcams or similar) or weld and grind the stock cam to maintain base circle. I suspect based on your observations with the cam carriers that this is what he was alluding to.
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Do you have the cam yet? Are you going for a new billet cam or reground? I was talking to somebody about this recently and he was suggesting either using a new cam with the original base circle (i.e from Catcams or similar) or weld and grind the stock cam to maintain base circle. I suspect based on your observations with the cam carriers that this is what he was alluding to.
No, I have no cam yet but I planned to have a cam ground from stock cam (regrinds are 220€ vs dbilas 770€).
I have to measure how much there is allowance for grinding stock cam base circle before lifters contact the carriers. I suspect it is about 1.5 - 2 mm which gives max lift 11 - 11.5 mm from stock cam regrind.
High lift aftermarket cams with same base circle as stock cams might run to different problem:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3303581940_802ff95f7f.jpg)
With very high lift cams there is no clearance between cam lobes and cam carrier walls, with stock cam the clearance is about 2 mm.
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check http://www.catcams.com for lift data without mashining cariers.
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check http://www.catcams.com for lift data without mashining cariers.
In/ex lift 12,5/12,0 mm no machining required
In/ex lift 13,0/12,5 mm machining required
What it does not say is if the base circle is identical to stock camshaft or is the higher lift achieved partly by reducing base circle and increasing cam lobe.
Anyway, I'm realy not prepared to pay almost 800€ for new camshafts if I can get regrinds for 220€... I just have to find out what is the lift/duration I can achieve easily with regrinds.
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Have your existing cams welded up and then reground. This will spare you the expense of machining your carriers and can give you better cam profiles than just grinding your stock cams. The price is a little more than grinding your stock cams, but actually is more affordable for what you get.
I had a company here in California weld up my intake cam and then reshape it. Works great, no complaints.
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Whats the conclusion of the M64B44 valves??
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Hi Thats very nice project you have there. May I know where did you get the throttle bodies and the gasket from (looks like from thick gasket with heat insulation).
Cause I am looking for 1 set of it as well. Thanks!!
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I found a place that sells supertech valves that are direct fit to M42 in reasonable prices, so M62B44 valves might not be as attractivec choice as they seemed.
Here's the place: http://www.flatlander-ipp.co.uk/supertech/supertvalves-bmw.shtml
ITB's are from S50B30 (E36 M3) and so are the thick yellow ceramic insulators.
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Mega II PCB 3.0 has been built, I still need to modify it to use COP ignition and to read second trigger (VR cam position sensor).
Old / New:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3617/3343948648_c2c8bc9766.jpg)
Next I need adapter between MS and OEM engine cable tree.
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I found a place that sells supertech valves that are direct fit to M42 in reasonable prices, so M62B44 valves might not be as attractivec choice as they seemed.
Here's the place: http://www.flatlander-ipp.co.uk/supertech/supertvalves-bmw.shtml
ITB's are from S50B30 (E36 M3) and so are the thick yellow ceramic insulators.
Hi! May I know where did you managed to source the ITBs and the Ceramic insulators from? Any contact of website of the vendor?
Thanks!
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Hi! May I know where did you managed to source the ITBs and the Ceramic insulators from? Any contact of website of the vendor?
German ebay, whole lot cost about 250€ if I recall right :cool:
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Mega is almost ready! Uploaded SW and it seems to work but I haven't tested it thoroughly because I do not have stim board. Sensor conditioning circuits are ready too, still must build COP modification.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3349128616_1d1deaaef7.jpg)
I also got S50B32 air filter + housing, should flow sooooooooooooo much better than wheezy stock housing while looking something that has been under the bonnet from factory :eek:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3558/3356618715_0a2ede2e13.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3356617123_89bc8cfc74.jpg)
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What's the diameter for the throttle plate for the ITB?
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50 mm.
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Long time and no updates so here comes one :)
Reground camshafts:
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs102.snc1/5008_95722408462_589403462_2025664_4840036_n.jpg)
Spec sheet they were ground to:
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs102.snc1/5008_95722413462_589403462_2025665_4468736_n.jpg)
So its:
intake 285 degrees / 11.95 mm
exhaust 280 degrees / 11.30 mm
Should be bit more lively than OEM or even Shrick copies I have now :)
Megasquirt II PCB 3.0 and Motronic adapter:
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4233_85988008462_589403462_1882777_2151880_n.jpg)
Three stage shift lights for mega:
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs029.snc1/4293_78533388462_589403462_1779099_291418_n.jpg)
Coil-on-Plug ignition drivers and idle control valve control transistor mounted on PCB:
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4233_83271303462_589403462_1842114_1700665_n.jpg)
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Great Progress Boyracer. I also have a MSII PCB v3 setup that i intend on using....As far as i know though it is just a standard build.
Would you mind detailing the modifications you have made for the COP control or atleast pointing me to the information you used. Will you be using the extra software or just the latest release of MSII?
I'm not worried about the shift light because i have an AIMsports Mychron3 coming :D But if you wouldn't mind throwing the details up I'm sure other people would be interested.
Thanks Chris
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Very interesting thread!!!
I'm curently building a more or less stock M42 with about 150-160bhp or maybe a 2.1 stroker if I get bored:p
When all that is done and I have some money to spend, I'll be building a 2.0L using the M47 crank and S50B30 ITBs with hot cams and solid lifters etc so will be keeping an eye on this thread to see how yours is turning out:)
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Neato! I'm interested to follow how it goes together and how the MSII PCB 3.0 works out.
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Nice work and next the lame ass question: any timetable, do we see your racer during this summer on track?
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Nice work and next the lame ass question: any timetable, do we see your racer during this summer on track?
Actually very good question which I have been thinking about myself too :)
Car is now driveable but it needs to pass yearly checkup which can be problematic without interior and with shrick copy cams (I know now they will not pass emission tests without changing cam timing). Maybe I will just get temporary plates so I can drive the car to track and back, lets see.
In a week or two I will start working with the car everyday because I'm now in vacation and hope to have ITB's and Mega installed before vacation ends.
I will also finally start to work with new engine but it is doubtful if it runs this season.
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any updates? :)
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Project still alive and kicking!
This will be the clutch, hope it handles all 220 Nm of torque!
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs137.snc1/5853_106159023462_589403462_2191207_5580344_n.jpg)
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs157.snc1/5853_106159028462_589403462_2191208_5606074_n.jpg)
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs157.snc1/5853_106159033462_589403462_2191209_4402808_n.jpg)
Spare bottom end stripped and readied for boring 84 mm -> 86 mm
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs123.snc1/5293_110836733462_589403462_2256749_7691372_n.jpg)
This is secondary chain tensioner rail, it has seen better days...
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs123.snc1/5293_110836723462_589403462_2256748_5903009_n.jpg)
And this is what happened when it let go, intake valves have taken a bite out of block:
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs143.snc1/5293_110836738462_589403462_2256750_4518273_n.jpg)
Front splitter has now OEM look supports (added thrid one to middle nad painted them semigloss black):
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs157.snc1/5853_110360078462_589403462_2249159_210958_n.jpg)
And removed annoying aftermarket remote controlled central locking/alarm:
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs143.snc1/5293_112216858462_589403462_2277699_7711965_n.jpg)
Hope to have more photos of progress in weekend! :)
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I guess it is time for a small update :)
* New billet steel flywheel is almost ready and I hope to post photos soon! Complete new setup (flywheel, disc, pressure plate, gear ring) together weights less than stock single mass M40/M42 flywheel alone (so its around 8-9 kg). With dual mass the difference is even bigger. here is photo of the sintered three puck disc:
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs094.snc3/16146_164064928462_589403462_2825272_1256199_n.jpg)
* Bought E36 M3 3.2 Sedan suspension and front brakes to be installed to car (not installed yet)
* Built some instrumentation to monitor health of engine (not installed yet)
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs206.snc1/7319_140791213462_589403462_2630355_1546229_n.jpg)
Progress is slow because of total lack of facilities :(
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ohh man thats too bad, but it looks mega awesome
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Something has happened with the build! :eek:
Billet flywheel is ready. Weight 4,6 kg (10,1 lbs)
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs183.snc3/19043_250186373462_589403462_3330831_5973171_n.jpg)
Flywheel + pressure plate 6,5 kg (14,3 lbs)
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs183.snc3/19043_250186383462_589403462_3330832_2428640_n.jpg)
Also bought aftermarket connecting rods, they should arrive next week :)
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Pics no workee
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pics work cause I'm drooling over the keyboard. I'm addicted to this project :)
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Boyracer, where did you buy this Clutch + Flywheel ?
I saw that you will use dbilas springs ... are there any other options for aftermarket stiffer springs?
And I was thinking something else ... what would be the difference between modified intake with M50B25 trottle body VS ITB from M3 E36?
Nice Project!
I just found some very interesting information about 35mm valves! As we know the valves from M62 Engine are little bit shorter than the stock M42 valves. Well I found this:
M3 S54 Valves 35mm X 6mm X 117.50mm (51 gram)
M50/52 Valves 33mm X 6mm X 106.10mm (those are the same as M42 Valves)
So it will be much easier to cut the M3 Valves than Machinework the Head for M62 Valves.
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Boyracer, where did you buy this Clutch + Flywheel ?
Clutch is from US ebay, it was originally used in some NASCAR car. Paid 140€ for it and sold the three discs that came with it for 100€ so it cost me about 40€ in the end :)
Three puck sintered disc I have now cost about 140€ and it was bought here in finland. Custom billet flywheel is also finnish origin and it cost me 200€.
Total cost for clutch & flywheel is about 380€, not bad for 50% drop in weight and significant increase in torque capacity! :eek:
I still will need to get hydraulic throwout bearing because stock system might not last very long with super stiff NASCAR pressure plate...
I saw that you will use dbilas springs ... are there any other options for aftermarket stiffer springs?
You might want to check out Cat Cams and Shrick. I cannot remember anymore what they had to offer to M42.
And I was thinking something else ... what would be the difference between modified intake with M50B25 trottle body VS ITB from M3 E36?
Do you mean stock M42 (E30 or E36? They are totally different) intake modified to accept M50B25 throttle body? Or completely new intake with M50B20 TB?
You can get very nice intake without ITB's, here is an good example:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3453047300_06f582e18c_b.jpg)
BMW Motorsport P54 used in WTCC with E46. 2,0 liters, no ITB's but around 300 hp.
Nice Project!
I just found some very interesting information about 35mm valves! As we know the valves from M62 Engine are little bit shorter than the stock M42 valves. Well I found this:
M3 S54 Valves 35mm X 6mm X 117.50mm (51 gram)
M50/52 Valves 33mm X 6mm X 106.10mm (those are the same as M42 Valves)
So it will be much easier to cut the M3 Valves than Machinework the Head for M62 Valves.
Thanks!
I have decided not to go for much larger valves for cost reasons.
You can get max 34 mm valves to fit in original valve seats and still have enough valve seat thickness to be reliable. 35 mm and anything larger requires changing of valve seats which will be huge cost!
Also, on 2 liter 16 valve NA engine (Opel C20EX) putting out 280 hp the difference between 34 mm valves and 35 mm valves is only 10 hp. This information is directly from Guy Croft who has worked with Hart F1 engines at the time. Now he works with many 16 valve engines and I consider him being one of the most trustworthy sources of information available.
I think that some other things will start restricting airflow to cylinder before valves get too small.
So unless you are building engine for a racing series where every singe hp count and have enough budget, 34 mm is quite enough :)
When I have money I think I will just order set of 34/31,5 mm Supertechs and be happy with them :o
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Oh .. thanks for the Information!
What I ment is an comparison:
--- ITB M3 E36 Modified to fit on M42B20 ---
VS
--- M50B25 TB with Custom made Intake on M42B20 ---
because of the costs, if there is not so much difference ... the solution with the M50B25 TB is very good.
Additional:
About the P54 Motorsport Engine, I've read that FIA have restrictions about the TB size: 64mm and that is why, thy use Single TB. But the Engine is very fine tuned and without ITBs got unbelievable results.
Another interesting Fact ist that P54 use 232mm long runners, which is the same as the aftermarket Honda S2000 Manifolds, which gives the best torque around 6000 rpm. Honda S2000 got indeed single TB, but
as a performance modification there are lots of aftermarket ITBs.
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Recent arrivals!
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs163.snc3/19043_261149928462_589403462_3370999_2231266_n.jpg)
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs183.snc3/19043_261149933462_589403462_3371000_299994_n.jpg)
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs183.snc3/19043_261149943462_589403462_3371001_890057_n.jpg)
8500 RPM here we come! :cool:
Actually they should hold out very well for even higher when mated with lighweight forged pistons that I have, it is just question of fatigue life and how well the cylinder head will flow. No reason to run stratospheric revs if power is already dropping...
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glad to see updates on this again. when it's done, DYNO IT.
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8500 RPM here we come! :cool:
Actually they should hold out very well for even higher when mated with lighweight forged pistons that I have, it is just question of fatigue life and how well the cylinder head will flow. No reason to run stratospheric revs if power is already dropping...
Who is manufacturer??
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Who is manufacturer??
They are from here: http://www.motornord.se
But I'm sure they do not make them by themself, I think they are basically same as Eagles etc.
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Just a few random photos...
60 hp / each! ;)
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs213.snc3/22043_280164173462_589403462_3439835_4759768_n.jpg)
Fully assembled flywheel and clutch
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs213.snc3/22043_280164178462_589403462_3439836_5468787_n.jpg)
Crank and vibration damper waiting for balancing
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs213.snc3/22043_280164188462_589403462_3439837_858835_n.jpg)
Next con rods should have their small end bushings changed and perhaps a slight shave from the sides, not the small end is bit too tight fit to piston, there is simply no allowance sideways movement. Stock piston / conrod have about 3 mm space for small end to move sideways.
Also, con rod big ends might have to be machined to have oil exits similar to stock rods. I will find out and post here later.
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When are you ready for the Dyno? i´m sure we all cant wait of it... ;-)
If you still have some Problems, what would be with a Lubricant cooling system? You do cool the oil with your Water radiator
(http://www.system-jockel.de/Poel/wt.jpg)
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Jan,
Off hand, do you know where a copy of homologation paper 5500 (318i) or 5526 (318is-4) can be found?
David
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Sorry, no idea where you can find the homologation papers :(
Plan is to have normal oil-to-air cooler later on.
Currently car is out of road due leaking gearbox rear end gasket and leaking head gasket... I think regular overheatings in track have finally done the trick and warped the cylinder head.
New block has been bored and honed, waiting machinist to complete work on con rods too. Then I guess I will have to drop the original engine and gearbox to fix the warped head and put it to new high comp block, gerabox will be fixed and hydraulic release bearing and lightweight clutch/flywheel installed:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs484.ash1/26478_377314493462_589403462_3759328_7721659_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-sjc1/hs504.snc3/26478_377314498462_589403462_3759329_2773204_n.jpg)
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Oh yeah, forgot this one:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs484.ash1/26478_375845993462_589403462_3733812_1913631_n.jpg)
Way thicker than stock radiator, also the size is same as in euro E36 M3 ie much larger than then one in car now.
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Not much progress I'm afraid... I REALLY need a garage :(
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs176.snc4/38125_415920993462_589403462_4673413_4926849_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs039.ash2/35310_416513023462_589403462_4688721_1061259_n.jpg)
Megasquirt installed behind and under glovebox:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs084.ash2/37519_416513028462_589403462_4688722_8068499_n.jpg)
Some help for monitoring state of engine. On the right is LC-1 wb lambda AFR meter:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs164.snc4/37519_416513033462_589403462_4688723_5629476_n.jpg)
Engine block has been bored and I hope con rods have been modified too, just have to pick them up from machinist.
Diff is away from car and it will be upgraded from 3.45 -> 4.1. Gearbox is away from car so I can build hydraulic release bearing adapter and install featherweight flywheel and clutch :cool:
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This is one seriously bad ass build!
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let the assembly begin.
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Release bearing legs have been shortened by 12 mm to allow it to fit inside bellhousing. I made adapter plate from 10 mm thick aluminium to secure release bearing in place.
Valve cover has been machined so it can house the coils and I made mounting adapter myself from 6 mm aluminium so that is almost ready too.
Got a K&N cone filter. I originally intended to use OEM E36 M3 filter housing but it fouls with the planned radiator exhaust air funnel that will vent through hood so I will make custom filter box from aluminium.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs387.snc4/44994_424854993462_589403462_4914734_8029106_n.jpg)
Engine block and rods are ready, will pick them up later this month and rebuild will finally start!
I think I will have workshop on my attic for the winter! Obviously not a replacement for a garage but allows me to build the engine and prepare some small things during winter :)
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where did you source the radiator from?
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where did you source the radiator from?
US eBay, seller was godspeed or something like that. Fit is ok, altough I had to modify lower supports a bit. No idea if it leaks :)
Got engine block from machinist and took flywheel and cranck for balancing. Release bearing and valve cover mod for CoP area ready.
Also got some parts for external case for sequential ignition/injection extension board. MIL-DTL-5015 baby!
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs189.ash2/45217_428024108462_589403462_4990110_1539988_n.jpg)
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can you post some pics of the hydraulic throwout bearing mounted? Did you have to drill holes into the gearbox case? If so, did you do it yourself or have a shop do it?
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This weekend's progress. Unfortunately not enought time to fit them to car :(
Next step is to finalize Mega and injection & ignition driver box and cable trees.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs602.snc4/58248_431538333462_589403462_5066411_5627562_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs632.snc4/59212_431006813462_589403462_5053782_8049000_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs614.snc4/59483_431006953462_589403462_5053785_5142945_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs314.ash2/59483_431006958462_589403462_5053786_4404752_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs314.ash2/59483_431006963462_589403462_5053787_7122303_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs634.snc4/59432_431006968462_589403462_5053788_3115168_n.jpg)
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Now things are picking up some pace :)
Making ignition cable tree:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs299.ash2/57952_432575178462_589403462_5087358_2134768_n.jpg)
Injection cable tree. I will make wiring suitable for staged injection (second bank located in the beginning of intake trumpets):
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs643.snc4/60302_432575158462_589403462_5087357_5420526_n.jpg)
A rare sighting of big block M42 (with 86 mm bore :)):
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs385.snc4/44827_429522263462_589403462_5029904_2849305_n.jpg)
Next I will finish megasquirt to work with sequential injection and tach/DISA control board. I have been looking what parts I am missing on bottom end and when I get pistons and rods from machinist I can start the build :)
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What about airbox?
Will you run staged injection with dual table function?
Fuel E85? :)
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what reason are you going with two stage injection over larger injectors?
build is looking nice. are you going to use MAF, VAF, or MAP with the MS? I haven't looked into MS in years, but I figured by now you'd be able to use MAP.
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My deduction is that with the injectors placed further away, the engine will get better fuel mixture at high RPM...
I'd do the same if I'm building my high strung 8,500rpm M42...
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There will be (aluminium or composite) airbox that encloses all intake trumpets and cold air will be drawn through cone filter.
Engine load will be establised by new Megasquirt parameter ITB which is basically MAP / Alpha N (TPS) blend. MAP alone will not work because huge pressure pulses from aggressive cams and anyway the intake manifold pressure is near atmospheric when you open the throttles more than little. On the other hand Alpha N does not work on small throttle openings. So you must blend all those together, use MAP on low throttle openings and Alpha N on high throttle openings.
Stock injectors are located only 13 cm away from intake valve. With S50 ITB's and 12 cm long intake trumpets I can locate secondary injectors about 30 cm away from intake valves which is almost 3x the distance and time for fuel and air to mix before it arrives to combustion chamber. This should give some 2-4% increase in top end power.
I am also toying with the idea of variable intake manifold. Secondary set of intake trumpets that are like extensions to fixed trumpets but they can be moved maybe 20 mm forward to allow air to be sucked from shorter path. Easy to control with Mega and also implement but not sure if there is enough space under the bonnet.
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Hi,
About staged injection. In my opinion primary injectors (stock position) is useless together with secondaries at high rpm and I didn't found function to switch primaries off completely. The only way I now is to use dual table for two banks of injectors. Primaries until 4000rpm and after that secondaries. But not shure about that: stock primaries and secondaries I'm planing 800cc Siemens-deka, low resistance and E85 fuel. Also thinking about cheap and nice composite airbox with posibility to instal secondaries injectors inside. Something like this :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/476/1mazas.th.jpg) (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/1mazas.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
By the way you can reduce pressure fluctuation for MAP sensor by installing restrictor, or use it for atmospheric pressure and alphaN ;)
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The miata has a variable intake runner design. Could look at that for ideas. I doubt the manifold could be use unless you cut it and you're good at tig welding alum :D
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The miata has a variable intake runner design. Could look at that for ideas. I doubt the manifold could be use unless you cut it and you're good at tig welding alum :D
well,this image is Mazda VICS, it works like DISA:
(http://home.online.no/%7Earban/Pics/Vics.jpg)
but I think Boyracer mean something like this :p
(http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Yamaha_R1_07_admission_stpz.jpg)
not too difficult to do and use with MS, surely the extra lenght could help for low torque if well calculated ;)
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Yeah. That's pretty badass. I know some of the newer year miatas had the valve closer to the head, but I forget what year they were.
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About staged injection. In my opinion primary injectors (stock position) is useless together with secondaries at high rpm and I didn't found function to switch primaries off completely. The only way I now is to use dual table for two banks of injectors. Primaries until 4000rpm and after that secondaries. But not shure about that: stock primaries and secondaries I'm planing 800cc Siemens-deka, low resistance and E85 fuel. Also thinking about cheap and nice composite airbox with posibility to instal secondaries injectors inside.
Yeah I think primaries always fire and then secondaries start injecting on top of them when certain parameters are met.
Ideal way would be to completely switch over from primaries to secondaries. I have been thinking using relay one output from mega to control solid state relay that would switch between banks, that way only one bank would fire at any given time. Not sure if the switchover from bank to another is a problem, leading to a very short (maybe few milliseconds) lean or rich mixture.
Problem is that I would need 2 x 4 identically sized injectors with flow rate around 500- 550 ccm.
By the way you can reduce pressure fluctuation for MAP sensor by installing restrictor, or use it for atmospheric pressure and alphaN ;)
MAP signal is averaged from all four intakes (it is taken from idle/vacuum rail) and there is quite bit of volume in there so maybe the pulses are not that strong. But restrictor will surely help if there is need for more filtering :)
I went to scrapyard yesterday and I purchased some 50 mm diameter aluminium tube for intake trumpets. Also sourced some 16/19/23 mm steel tube for new vacuum and fuel rails. I have whole winter time to build so why not do it properly...
Con rods should be FINALLY ready next week, then I can start measuring bearing clearances with old bearings and then buy new ones. Also ordered some parts for timing case, timing chain guides and oil pan.
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Do not know what version MS you run, but: http://www.megamanual.com/DT.htm
Independent Injector Bank Settings
Independent injection control for each injector bank which allows completely separate VE entries, kPa and RPM bins, control algorithms, and PWM values. The same enrichments are used for both banks, however you have the option of disabling enrichments for either bank. This means you have independent control of the two injector banks, almost as if you had two MegaSquirts operating them.
and
Zero Pulse
Eric specifically coded into the dual table code that zero VE means exactly no injector pulse at all. So if the VE table returns a zero value, then all other calculations (enrichments, OC time and all that) are ignored, the PW is set to zero, and the injectors do not get a pulse. This feature is essential to prevent secondary injectors (and nitrous systems) from injecting before they are commanded. (Note that in standard MegaSquirt® *****ded code, a zero VE still results in a pulsewidth that includes the injector opening time as well as some enrichments).
So you do not need any SS relay.
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There is only four independent injector drivers (two on standard mega...) so if you have two injector banks on four cylinder engine you cannot control each of the eight injectors independently.
You can use semi sequential so both banks are divided to two groups (batch fire like stock motronic/mega but on two banks) but then you lose accurate timing of pure sequential injection and possibility for cylinder specific fuel trim.
Semi sequential might work ok but I am little worried about possible blowback with second bank of injectors shooting down to intake trumpet... With sequential you could perhaps time injections to coincide with stron intake pulse to make sure fuel goes to cylinder, not to airbox walls :)
My ignition & injection driver box and cable trees are designed in a way that each injector control wire comes to the box so for any modifications I just need to rewire the connections inside the box, no need to alter the cabling at all. So I am pretty free to experiment.
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I am not sure, but seqentional injection is used only for low revs to have better ecology and economy but not for power gain.
http://www.sdsefi.com/techseq.htm
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=PortInjected/SequentialInjection
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Yes, full sequential mostly improves low end emissions, power and idle quality. But it also offers possibility to use cylinder specific fuel trim in case you can measure EGT's (which I do not have yet...) that works on all revs areas :)
I can give semi sequential two bank solution a shot first to see how it goes.
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Yes, it's good solution for individual cylinder control and depends what controller you have (MS-III?). I just afraid what it could be overcomplicated. Indvidual: EGT, O2 and smart knock sensing :D
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:) nice!
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Won't 50mm throttles be too big and give you poor throttle modulation? Dbilas uses 45mm throttle bodies.
Just curious how you figured 50mm would be suitable.
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Won't 50mm throttles be too big and give you poor throttle modulation? Dbilas uses 45mm throttle bodies.
Just curious how you figured 50mm would be suitable.
If it is suitable on M3 3,0 and 3,2 why it should be not suitable here?
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The proper throttle butterfly diameter is a function of the inlet valve/port area(s). If you have say a 40mm diameter port, and a 45mm butterfly its approximately 10% larger where as a 50mm diameter butterfly will be 20% larger.
With a larger butterfly as a percentage of the port a smaller opening in the throttle (degrees of opening as your TPS sees it) lets in a lot more air. This makes modulating the throttle difficult as a very small input at the pedal is a larger change in air entering the port. Also, you might be WOT as far as the amount of air your engine can ingest at say 80% throttle leaving the last 20% to be completely worthless.
There is such thing as too big of a throttle opening. I can't recall the diameter of the intake runners at the end of the lower manifold so I don't know what the preferred throttle diameter is.
A simple way to do this is a S50b32 has about .53L per cylinder where as the M42b18 has .45L per cylinder. Essentially the S50b30 uses 15% more air per cylinder as a quick and dirty calculation.
50mm just seems too much to me which is why I haven't tried to use these. Some people oversize the throttle for things like autocross though so with barely any throttle input the car really takes off making response awesome but more of an on/off switch.
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IMHO 20% is not a big difference and ITB-head ports match perfectly.
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True, maybe its suitable size. I was just curious if he just used them because they were cheap, or if he actaully figured they were a correct size.
I saw that a few other people have used 50mm throttle bodies and seem to like them, so its probably a decent fit.
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True, maybe its suitable size. I was just curious if he just used them because they were cheap, or if he actaully figured they were a correct size.
I saw that a few other people have used 50mm throttle bodies and seem to like them, so its probably a decent fit.
Oh, new posts on my topic :eek:
What you stated about individual cylinder volumes between M42B18 and S50B30 is true. However, intake port shape and dimensions on M42 and S50 heads are 99% identical so in that sense it is perfect match.
Also, while stock M42 revs to 6800 and S50 to around 7250, mine will rev atleast to 8500 so even if my individual cylinder volume is smaller than in S50B30 my engine will suck in more cylinder fulls of air in same unit of time. It is hard to say how much it will have effect in practice.
One has to remember that intake path tends to increase in diameter when going away from intake valve. So if you place throttle body close to intake valve 45 mm might be perfect. But if your throttle body is further away then 50 mm might be optimum. It is not just the diameter, it is where the throttle is located :)
Engine bottom end parts are in balancing and I should get them next week. I think I have all the parts now to assemble bottom end. I will make new ITB adapter from thicker aluminium (15 mm) and I will also make 10 mm Nylon thermal barrier spacer between cylinder head and ITB adapter to keep intake path cooler. I have intake trumpets made from 50 mm diam aluminium tube, I just need to make flanges to attach them to throttle bodies.
Parts for fuel rails are ready, I just need to braze them together. I cleaned few sets of injectors:
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205245_10150149969483463_589403462_6666716_1544749_n.jpg)
And I will service them with new O-rings, filters etc.
Superlight clutch/flywheel and hydraulic co-axial slave cylinder are in car and they work very well! Clutch pedal travel is perhaps 1/3rd what it was with stock setup. Also, the engine gains and loses revs like you would not believe! You have to be pretty quick on normal road speeds when shifting, otherwise the revs drop too much :D
3.45 -> 4.1 diff ratio change was installed and it is working fine, no extra noises. With only 140 hp stock engine, car accelerates in significantly different way, especially on 1st and 2nd gears. No wonder, diff is about 18-19% shorted now.
Oh, I also installed quick ratio Z3 steering rack that I found for 150€. Not tested on track yet but it feels faster but heavier when parking. I think it is going to be a hoot in track :p
Right now I am looking to buy good suspension, I swapped stock suspension to E36 M3 suspension and it is too tall for lightened 318is. I am looking AST Sportline II, Intrax RSA and KW Clubsport.
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Right now I am looking to buy good suspension, I swapped stock suspension to E36 M3 suspension and it is too tall for lightened 318is. I am looking AST Sportline II, Intrax RSA and KW Clubsport.
Check UK, there is alot various brand and not china shit..
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I'm unsure if you are concerned but if you use the newer ev6-style ev1 bosch injectors, fuel atomization pattern is much wider and finer, and they are smoother at low PWs.
Also ms3x...sequential fuel and spark for 8 cylinders....I'm sure you already know that.
Derek
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Some progress! :eek:
Removed sound deadening mats:
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269037_10150245059268463_589403462_7432122_2913185_n.jpg)
Removed rear brake dust shields:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/267757_10150245625613463_589403462_7437138_7332608_n.jpg)
AST Sportline II suspension with rear coilover option:
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269164_10150246777998463_589403462_7447688_29339_n.jpg)
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269097_10150246777628463_589403462_7447680_2931832_n.jpg)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/268488_10150246778453463_589403462_7447700_3894744_n.jpg)
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270029_10150246808778463_589403462_7447914_8326586_n.jpg)
Some parts for adjustable custom control arms, I will replace every rubber bushing with spherical bearing and manufacture tube control arms:
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264332_10150247314638463_589403462_7451885_5905761_n.jpg)
Glassfiber hood:
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269944_10150255067703463_589403462_7522649_4645288_n.jpg)
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Some earlier efforts I forgot...
17" BBS RK wheels, cost me 200€:
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/208344_10150159457688463_589403462_6744604_7598021_n.jpg)
309 x 32 mm Wilwood rotors and Rally Design customizable aluminium rotor hats:
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253083_10150200358158463_589403462_7098766_4470571_n.jpg)
Deleted front brake dust shields:
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/248933_10150201863818463_589403462_7108894_2015927_n.jpg)
Toyo R888 225/45-17 tires:
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/251180_10150216721893463_589403462_7243582_3178413_n.jpg)
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Some earlier efforts I forgot...
17" BBS RK wheels, cost me 200€:
Are wheels width 9 inch? very nice wheels...
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Sadly only 8" with ET 35... But they and R888's barely fit to wheel wells as they are, any wider and I would have to start looking for widebody conversion...
Few other things I forgot:
1. BMW E36 M3 brake master cylinder for 13% more piston area (shorter pedal travel)
2. Stainless steel lined brake hoses
3. Wheel stud conversion front and rear
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The S50 ITBs are kinda too small for the 1.8
Throttle modulation can be pretty difficult.
Worl very well with a 2/2.1L engine though :cool:
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Instal front aluminium arms from E46 and you will get good caster camber and mass reduction in suspension moving parts, that will increase grip and so on... ;)
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Instal front aluminium arms from E46 and you will get good caster camber and mass reduction in suspension moving parts, that will increase grip and so on... ;)
Indeed! Makes a great difference.
We just use custom rose-jointed arms on our track E30s and E36s though
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Instal front aluminium arms from E46 and you will get good caster camber and mass reduction in suspension moving parts, that will increase grip and so on... ;)
I was thinking something more like this:
(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss191/StevoM5/Adjustable%20Control%20Arm/DSC02138.jpg)
Both rear control arms shoud also be tubular and adjustable type :)
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Yep, they work very well but our track cars are also for drifting so wheels were getting caught on full lock.
So solution was stock shaped arms but with adjustable rose-joints at the outer ball-joints. Don't give as much adjustment as the ones pictures above but offer the best compromise for our application.
I'll be making the same sort of thing as in the above pics for my track/race car though as it won't need as much lock.
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Anyone here tried a single throttle setup with long runners to a big volume intake plenum instead of ITB setup, with additional bank of 4 injectors further up the intake runners (for high rev range only)...
The 2nd bank of injectors further up the intake port, in theory, allows better air/fuel mixture especially for high rpm range where the intake air velocity is high.
The tricky part is to set up the ECU to control the 2 sets of injectors especially the switchover point where the original bank of injectors has to be shut off completely. And maybe the 2nd bank of injectors has to start squirting fuel a wee bit sooner before the 1st bank is shut off (due to the longer distance from the intake port).
This M42 from Thailand is running 2 banks of injectors (http://www.bangkokclassiccar.com/forum/index.php?topic=19247.360)
(http://jglaze.com/images/lekaarm/jeed/jeed104.jpg)
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Like this???
(http://www.discostu.co.uk/stuff/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4333)
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Like this???
(http://www.discostu.co.uk/stuff/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4333)
But this one only single bank but placed further up the runners. more for race application rather than for street...
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Yes, but I meant the position of them and the plenum design with one tb.
The S42 had what you are thinking about like the picture you posted although they had slide ITBs rather than a single tb before the plenum.
Could easily fit an extra bank to an M42 with even the stock inlet. Would need an ECU to control it though.
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Why wouldn't you just increase the injector size to what is needed? Modern injectors have way better spray patterns to promote atomization.
This is especially true for injector sizes an M42 would use, even at S42 power levels.
Most decent ECUs also let you change spray angle with RPM which helps both idle and top end.
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Why wouldn't you just increase the injector size to what is needed? Modern injectors have way better spray patterns to promote atomization.
Better atomization....
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Could easily fit an extra bank to an M42 with even the stock inlet. Would need an ECU to control it though.
Run 2 ecu's? (it's not unheard of)
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What for two ECU when you can use MS3 and staged injection.
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Megasquirt 2 can do semisequential in staged injection, good enough for me.
I have this add-on board:
http://www.jbperf.com/quad_ign_inj/index.html
(http://www.jbperf.com/quad_ign_inj/quad_ign_inj_board_v1_0_small.png)
Four independent ignition and four independent injection channels. On staged mode there is two banks of 2 injectors on both stages.
http://www.jbperf.com/sequential/index.html
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Will it be possible to switch off completely injectors near cylinder head when others will start to squirt?
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Here is the VEMS diaglog box for injector staging.
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/nhertlein/1991%20e30/VEMS/injectorstaging-1.jpg)
Looks like no "blending" map to reduce pulsewidth of primary injector set while adding the secondaries. Secondaries just add a percentage flow at some TPS and MAP variable.
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Will it be possible to switch off completely injectors near cylinder head when others will start to squirt?
Megasquirt3 + MS3X can do that. :)
Transition fully to secondaries - This setting is used to determine whether the fully staged state means that the primary and secondary pulse-widths are equal, OR if the fully staged state means that primaries are shut down completely and staging transitions fully to the secondary injectors. The following settings are possible:
- Off - The fully staged state means that the primary and secondary injector pulse-widths are equal.
- On - The fully staged state means that the primaries are shut down, and staging transitions fully to the secondary injectors.
screenshot of the settings:
(http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/img/stagedsettings.png)
MS3+MS3x is the bomb for its price (coupled with Phil Tobin's TS registered, best few bucks I ever spent for software, awesome support)
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Very cool. Both MS and VEMS seem to have come a long way in the last few years. TunerStudio and VemsTune are so much more user friendly.
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Better atomization....
The attached article is good.. The tuner was generous in sharing his in-depth understanding and experience tuning dual bank fuel-injection.
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Boyracer. I hope you don't mind my asking but do you have a rough estimate as to how much this is all costing you? And if you would rather not add it up for your own sake I understand.
I am very impressed with your work!!!
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Still alive!
I ordered some parts for test fitting after talk with my engine machinist. One is steel insert to convert OEM hydraulic lifter to solid (10€ / pcs) and true solid lifter with lash cap (24€ / pcs). I will test fit them to see which one is better suited to my cam/valve combination ie. if either of them offer enough adjustment range for reground cam with smaller base circle.
I did also check cam carriers with cams and cam carriers MUST be machined to allow lifters to move further up on lifter bores, otherwise lifters do not touch cams base circle at all... There is perhaps 1 mm gap.
Most likely I will machine the cam carriers and fit solid lifters to my current installed stock head. That will be around 250€ - 450€. Full performance cylinder head with new valves, guides, porting etc would be around 1500-2000€ which is way too much in one go :(
Bottom end needs just to be put together, all parts should be there, balancing and machining etc has been done.
Only thing I have been able to do recently is aluminium battery holder, located on rear seat footwell:
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/291795_10150353674113463_589403462_8291709_1360765341_n.jpg)
I also got to drive the car for a change:
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/319960_10150341182218463_589403462_8223445_95878582_n.jpg)
I was about 3 secs off the pace of true E36 325i race car which had same tires and about 60 hp more. Not bad show considering it was a power circuit with long straghts :cool:
Car was very good to drive but quite boring, suspension and tires are so good that yu could fall asleep on long straghts... NEED MOAR POWR! :eek:
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I did also check cam carriers with cams and cam carriers MUST be machined to allow lifters to move further up on lifter bores, otherwise lifters do not touch cams base circle at all... There is perhaps 1 mm gap.
Most likely I will machine the cam carriers and fit solid lifters to my current installed stock head. That will be around 250€ - 450€. Full performance cylinder head with new valves, guides, porting etc would be around 1500-2000€ which is way too much in one go :(
Hi Jan, good to hear it is progressing. I am not sure if you have caught my thread (http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8343). I have some pics and flow figures for my M42 head which is heartening as it can flow a theoretical 280hp.
I had a chat with the fella who did my head up about machining the cam carriers. He thought it would not be a problem to machine them. If you bore it right though, it could cut into the cam journal.
He showed me a Nissan 3.5 IRL heads he had in his workshop. It has the narrow lower journals. His advise was that, from a mechanical load, this should not be an issue because the narrow journal would be on the unweighted side: valve springs push up and loading would be on the upper journal surface. The only concern would be oiling - whether the oil would drain excessively, starving other parts of the head. I am not sure if this is an issue with solid lifters.
David
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dsm2002/b35f63bb.jpg)
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I went to internet and I found this:
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/383255_10150365336813463_589403462_8357508_308438821_n.jpg)
That is from BMW Motorsport S42 engine. If his worked for them, it should work for us too :p
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I'm unsure if you are concerned but if you use the newer ev6-style ev1 bosch injectors, fuel atomization pattern is much wider and finer, and they are smoother at low PWs.
Also ms3x...sequential fuel and spark for 8 cylinders....I'm sure you already know that.
Derek
I ordered some of these Design 4s... 60mm length o-ring to o-ring, should be a direct swap. And they're supposed to not have the leaking problem that the Design 3s do.
http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=206
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Planning brakes:
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/315647_10150392734173463_589403462_8500156_1503524533_n.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/390642_10150392738763463_589403462_8500169_1901097678_n.jpg)
Caliper/hub clearance is a problem with 309 mm brake disc, perhaps I should step up to 323 or 330 mm.
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/389444_10150434308948463_589403462_8635628_936840057_n.jpg)
Parts for DIY front/rear tubular control arms:
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/379994_10150411497883463_589403462_8557832_668239627_n.jpg)
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Some progress on electronics front!
Coil dwell & spark measurements with scope:
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/409291_10150564824983463_589403462_9100296_578777756_n.jpg)
Ignition & injector driver box:
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/427714_10150564824548463_589403462_9100293_1100945069_n.jpg)
Solid lifters waiting to get cam carriers modified:
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/388792_10150409369753463_589403462_8551720_720006671_n.jpg)
Shortened S50B30 ITB shaft, I brazed it back together with silver:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400509_10150477011363463_589403462_8801435_1771024964_n.jpg)
I tried to make my own adapter plate but could not achieve good enough accuracy so I had to buy this in the end:
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/404512_10150509587653463_589403462_8932086_272542568_n.jpg)
Ign & inj box has now own connectors for ingition coils and primary and secondary injectors. Cable trees I have made allow every injector to be controlled independently so staged full sequential is possible when I upgrade to MS3. All injector and coil channels are tested and working, I also added few capacitors to box to prevent current spikes and voltage drops.
I think I will get set of newer EV6 injectors instead of using old EV1 or EV1.3 types I already have... EV6 opens faster and atomization is better.
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I also bought Toyota MR2 electric power steering pump and I am designin microcontroller circuit to adjust it's power depending on speed and demanded load. Electric pump is useful so I can get rid of stock pump which is in way of oil filter/cooler pickup plate connectors.
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good to see progress. what brake hats will you be using? Are those rotors Wilwoord 8x7.00" bcd? RallyDesign in the UK have universal hats for these rotors.
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Phenomenal project you've got going; always good to see M42 development. I took the easy way and did MS and a turbo, haha.
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good to see progress. what brake hats will you be using? Are those rotors Wilwoord 8x7.00" bcd? RallyDesign in the UK have universal hats for these rotors.
I did buy my hats from RallyDesign so they need some machining :)
I also bought those Wilwood UL32 309/32 mm rotors from there but I think I might have to order bigger ones... Now caliper lugs interfere somewhat with hub lugs even after bit of machining, I need about 10 mm larger diameter rotors.
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Any progress. I enjoy this thread :)
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Something has indeed happened :eek:
Went to dyno to get some baseline numbers before summer upgrades. Engine is well down on power and especially torque compared to run in same dyno in 2008:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536620_10150871152423463_589403462_9855935_1515659843_n.jpg)
2008 I only had ebay chip as tuning, this time I did not have chip, only modification is very free flow 2.5" exhaust and exhaust manifold secondaries.
I have always said that the chip was very effective altough the too-large-for-this-power-level exhaust might rob some torque down low.
I have been on track for few times this season and I have improved my laptime on my favourite track by 2.5 seconds now. Also won my class in BMW Club Finland sprint race by 3,5 s per lap and had I run one class higher I would have been on podium against 325's and 328's :)
Car is very stable and easy to drive, suspension and tires work well. I suspect I cannot get Toyo R888 tires up to working temperature so once summer warms up times should improve further even without other modifications. Problem is that I have to get to corners with huge speed adn try to maintain it throughout because I have so little power that I cannot make up the lost time from exits as car is now power limited, not grip limited.
(http://senna.galleria.fi/kuvat/Ahvenisto+-+BMW+Club+Finnland+ratap%E4iv%E4t+05.-06.05.2012/Lauantai+05.05.2012/DSC_0795.JPG/_medium.jpg?hash=90541)
There is hint of understeer on slow corners, I think that can be cured with adjusting camber with shims and tire pressures.
On the downside starter failed on dyno, we push started the car and on the way home car stalled on busy main road as I was coming to red light -> tow needed... The car will be taken to friends carage next week for fix and installing new parts I have had lying around for years.
To-do list:
- Fix starter...
- new mounting points for drivers seat (15 cm further back and 5 cm lower)
- 6-point harness mounting points
- High capacity radiator + expansion tank install
- Crankcase/valvecoer breather tank install
- Wideband lambda install
Bit later I hope:
- Remove door inside trim, window lifters, install alu trim
- Fabricate and install tubular + spherical rear control arms
- Move gearstick 10 cm backwards
- heel support below pedals
- install and tune megasquirt
- remove stock air meter + filter, replace with K& cone.
- Replace trunk lid with glassfiber one
- Make brackets to mount Wilwood Superlite front brakes
- Install 80 mm steering rack spacer to bring steering wheel closer
Things I have bought recently:
- Set of Bosch EV6 ~400 ccm injectors
- Set of BBS RK 8x17" wheels
- 2 sets of Michelin 200/610-17 racing slicks :D
- Set of Wilwood 323x32 mm brake discs (309x32 were too small in diameter, they will go back at some point)
On engine front I am not quite sure what to do... I need MOAR POWR but the all-out engine is too expensive to finish for this season so I might try to get something out of current engine if it clears compression etc checks... I will get yet another set of 256/10.4 mm cams made that I can use with current stock head, with megasquirt they should yield around 170 hp. And if I manage to install ITB,s well, I would be disapointed not to see 180 hp.
Car is now 1090 kg without driver, some 200 kg lighter than E36 M3 I go to track with (altough they have cages). With racing slicks this car should give any lightly modified M3 a good run for its money atleast on twisty circuits :cool:
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Something has happened :confused:
Turned out starter was only attached with one bolt and even that was falling out... Me and my friend decided to remove intake manifold to get easy access to fix it. Manifold was nasty to remove because of all the electric wiring for sensors etc being in middle of it and we really did not fancy idea of putting manifold back together...
So we decided to chuck it away and finally try to plug in the S50 ITB's. There's plenty of space with shortened S50B30 trumpets but since this engine will not rev to 8500 (the other engine I have will once it is ready) so longer trumpets better suited to ~7500 rev limiter will be either manufactured from aluminium or nicked from spare S50B32 engine.
Megasquirt is waiting for installation, need just to make hole in spare motronic box housing adapter circuits for mega's D25 connector.
Still need to come up with vacuum rail and fuel rails. And airbox and filter enclosure, they are going to be aluminium at start. Most important thing now is to get car running, I can optimize parts later on.
Alternator and power steering pump have been removed, power steering pump will be replaced with Toyota MR2 electric pump later on. Alternator will be moved to where A/C compressor is. OEM alternator is huge and heavy, I think I might replace it with some small japanese car alternator that is half the size & weight.
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/457395_10150911562048463_1534630331_o.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/465217_10150911562743463_657284022_o.jpg)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/460615_10150911563463463_589403462_9993579_2074669448_o.jpg)
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You can use MB A class steering pump also, it is very compact and it is made in one peace with hydraulic tank.
(http://www.jarparts.com/webvi/jiwo/wwwroot/uploadfiles/pic/1684660201.jpg)
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Glad to see things still progressing!
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Yeah, I am sometiems suprised mysefl that this thing is still going on :o
Airbox and intake trumpets are almost ready. Still must weld in IAT sensor bung and tubes for idle and intake hoses.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/414527_10150966505729769_1578576617_o.jpg)
Not the most hitech or elegant solution but should work well as iteration 1. Intake trumpets are optimized to match rev limiter of 7200-7500 rpm. Airbox volume is about largest we could get on sensible use of space and effort to make sure engine has plenty of high pressure air available at all times.
Mega and wb lamdba are in but not tested yet. Going back tomorrow to finalize OEM harness modifications. We might be able to finalize vacuum rail but sadly new EV6 injectors are too short to be used with any of the available fuel rails. We might be able to test start with old injectors. Before any serious running alternator must be attached and breather tank installed.
It's getting there...
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WOW, that is a gigantic air box! Could you give a little info on how you determined trumpet length (design equations?) and why you are after the largest possible plenum? Where will you fit an air filter?!
Awesome project. I have been having fun following it.
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Nice work, been watching this for a long time and inspired me to have a go too though im not finished either as I seem to be working on the same timeline as you haha.
What i have found which may interest you is from analysis i found some "gains" from playing with trumpet angle relative to inlet direction so that inlet flow to the airbox didnt preferentially feed a particular runner (edit or shadow the runner behind. Depends on plenum entry etc though). Maybe useful for later itterations.
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WOW, that is a gigantic air box! Could you give a little info on how you determined trumpet length (design equations?) and why you are after the largest possible plenum? Where will you fit an air filter?!
Awesome project. I have been having fun following it.
Yeah, it is pretty sizeable... Removing alternator and power steering pump gave room to expand downwards :D
This is Alfa Romeo 155 Supertouring engine + airbox:
(http://www.x19performance.com/attachments/Image/Dallara_fiat07.jpg)
That is pretty large too.
I did not start to calculate resonant frequencies for this design. Most things pointed to direction that larger is better because it acts as reservoir after air filter from where intake trumpets suck air to engine with almost zero restriction. If the airbox would be very small, all the air going to cylinder should be immediately replaced air sucked through filter and there is perhaps tiny bit of restriction there. Large airbox should smooth out those pulses.
With smaller one you could perhaps tune it to certain frequency to help cylinder filling at some rev range. I might do that after I got the thing running to see if it should be made bit larger or smaller.
Trumpets are simply sized after S50B30 (200 mm trumpet / limiter 7300 rpm) and S50B32 ( trumpet 150 mm / limiter 7600 rpm) trumpets. This "stock" engine is going to be limited to around 7300-7500 so trumpet lenght is simply halfway between those ie. 175 mm. M42 has slightly larger individual cylinder displacement but that should not affect tuning effect that much.
I also calculated harmonic resonant frequencies (ie revs) on spreadsheet for all of those engines and OEM trumpet lenghts and theory seemed hold well.
Air filter is K&N with 100 mm inside diameter and we made flange between it and 100 mm flexible hose. Similar flange will be fitter to front or bottom of the airbox so I can move filter around to find best location. One idea is to make filter enclosure below radiator to take in air from lower large opening on front bumper.
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Look up Helmoltz wave equations for tuning lengths. I will have to look around for an old writeup but I have a spreadsheet I made for calculating.
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Yeah, modeling things as HH resonators is a place to start. The real trick is in finding the phase of the wave at the end (valve) rather than just the resonant frequency though, correct? You want a positive pressure peak to coincide with the valve when it is opening.
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plenum volume is arguable on a itb setup as its the entire volume after the throttle plate until the filter?
Larger to reduce restriction is a good way to go however, too large and the volume of air inside heatsoaks (very well through ali) and is not replaced fast enough to stay cool which works against you. High speed/rpm prob not a issue, standing starts or rolling start may bog the engine once the throttle opens untill cool air reaches the engine.
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Car is back on it's feet but not yet running, need bit of vacuum hose, modification to DIY vacuum rail and then I can test if engine starts with megasquirt.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/456855_10150936218473463_1848254181_o.jpg)
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Asiallista duunia :)
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Looks dangerous! :)
Where have you sourced rear spoiler? I want one for my daily car :D
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Looks dangerous! :)
Where have you sourced rear spoiler? I want one for my daily car :D
It's OEM part and it belongs to M3 GT and 318is Class II homologation models. They pop up occasionally on german eBay, mine came with the car :cool:
I think mine will become redundant soon when I replace trunk lid with glassfiber one. At some point I hope to build much bigger and effective wing that connects to car frame instead of trunk lid...
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Why not STW spoiler?
http://www.raceparts.biz/bmw-e36/
High downforce version available...
IMHO big spoiler like E46 GTR with really big downforce will ruin your top speed if you will try to go faster than 200km/h.
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Why not STW spoiler?
http://www.raceparts.biz/bmw-e36/
High downforce version available...
IMHO big spoiler like E46 GTR with really big downforce will ruin your top speed if you will try to go faster than 200km/h.
STW wing is not very effective, it's dimensions and I suspect profile were restricted by Supertouring rules...
Tracks we have here in Finland are pretty slow and there are no long straights. On my favourite track my car does around 150 kmh on fastest place and average speed is 110 km/h. To have any kind of significant downforce you need plenty of wing/splitter area.
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You are right, seems you know why aircraft fly ;)
What amount of downforce from rear spoiler you want?
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Well well well, it seems that I got the engine running with mega :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAmidb0XWdw
Friend is handling the throttle :)
Engine started pretty easily in the end, after I fixed some problems liek crossed fuel lines and ICV that fed 6 volts to ingition wire preventing car electricts to shut off and causing mega to reset after few seconds of cranking.
Engine runs now but no tuning has been done yet. Must source shorter alternator belt and suitable connector for that Nippon Denso alternator.
Alternator setup:
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/181186_10151014388453463_2082340922_n.jpg)
EGT sensors:
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/376176_10151014388793463_1911917970_n.jpg)
Front brakes are finally getting ready to install too...
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what brakes are you putting on? the rx7 ones?
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what brakes are you putting on? the rx7 ones?
Wilwood Superlites:
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/315647_10150392734173463_1503524533_n.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/390642_10150392738763463_1901097678_n.jpg)
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Did you made a bracket to mount the alternator on the airco mountings? (or did you drilled a hole in the engine :P )
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Some progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANy7pwd6MM0
Small Nippon Denso alternator from Toyota Yaris charges the battery as it should. Vacuum rail is finished. Alu header tank has been installed etc. Basically car now moves again on it's own power, too bad it has not passed road inspection lately :p
I need to make some basic tuning on the road before going to dyno to tune igntion map. Also I need to find out if the car holds together in general, lots of changes...
Engine load is now MAP based but that should ideally be switched to ITB load mode before dyno but I don't have enough data to use it yet. I hope to install Shrick copy camshafts soon too.
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Car is back on it's feet but not yet running, need bit of vacuum hose, modification to DIY vacuum rail and then I can test if engine starts with megasquirt.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/456855_10150936218473463_1848254181_o.jpg)
Hello, I'm also installing a throttle body in a m3 engine M42. How did you adapt the throttle body? There are adapters or something you've created. I'm installing a control unit Megasquirt PNP. Which performance did you get? Forgive me if my English is not correct, I'm Italian!
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Hi there!
I watch this project with great interest, i think its one of the best projects of the M42 around here! Congratulations.
I few pages back there was a search for bigger intake valves that could fit the M42 engine.
According to supertech valves:
BMW M42 intake Valves:
Head Diam Stem Diam Length
33mm 5,97mm 106.10mm
And i have found the Peugeot EW10J4S intake valves to be the exact same dimensions but off course larger in diameter:
Head Diam Stem Diam Length
35mm 5,97mm 106.10mm
Look here:
http://www.supertechperformance.com/ivalves.html?id=1
http://www.supertechperformance.com/ivalves.html?id=12
Is it possible to make it work?
Congrats on the build and keep on going!
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It should work. Also it depends from Valve collet where it is.
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what happend to this build?
i used to check up on this one (and his previous one) regularly. amazing builds!
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So did he make his 280hk mark or what?
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Not yet :)
Finally 1.5 years ago I bought a house with space for workshop and garage so I could work on the car.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1470172_10151978188278463_415423962_n.jpg?oh=8d8e8270164ab7568388c2d16d2eef24&oe=553818F4&__gda__=1430544453_7e871a3761aa1be77bf35241ef53cdb6)
(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1450972_10151911256698463_161044250_n.jpg?oh=a60293ca8d9faab7a605cb83af276aff&oe=553898C2)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1511332_10152184512638463_809888065_n.jpg?oh=f6f6ff9350627ad57cfe81845d6da3e2&oe=55301CBC&__gda__=1429263712_24e6465ad8a898e70987ded8643fbb08)
I also bought another identical 318is Class II:
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10258255_10152273458238463_8284490507200331701_n.jpg?oh=75c68762ba4a60660c44d0a07a0617d6&oe=55437EE2)
Original project is being stripped bare to be ready for roll cage, pedal box and completely new electrics:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10385478_10152813656228463_1827068928732640170_n.jpg?oh=f9f1d7c9d8ae31f622f7273167cf50ba&oe=552D6D63&__gda__=1425874070_17273f466d603419ff823bf4ee40cb0a)
On top of that, I got an offer to work on norway which I accepted... Now I have money and room to build car but no time apart from vacations :o
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Welcome back! :D
What exactly is a class II?
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What exactly is a class II?
homologation specials.. quite a rare car i believe...
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I like your "werkstatt" sign it adds a nice touch to the garage :)
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Excellent
Glad to see this continue!
Cheers rohan
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Here is my Turbo built E30 318is Turbo 313Whp.
https://plus.google.com/+ChrisPhares/photos
Check out my Youtube Channel for some videos.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLEu7uRERoZOnpMyy0x4enA
Cheers.