M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
FAQ / REFERENCE => M42 Reference => Topic started by: kramerica5000 on May 31, 2006, 10:55:02 AM
-
Personally I'd rather have Febi's motor, but this is a whole lot of ponies for $3k and an afternoon.
Enjoy:
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~kramere/downloads/GRM_bimmer_2.pdf
-
Agreed.
With Febi's you get a rebuilt, fresh, blueprinted motor with more power.
But that blower sure looks nice.
-
The article mentions previous modifications. Apparently a Turner chip. Were there anymore prior to the supercharger install? Was the original 127 HP at the rear wheels or the crank? 127 at the wheel is a pretty good number but about what you would expect at the crank on a 200,000 mile motor. What about detonation, longevity, etc.? Some of the 6 cylinder forums had driveline questions. I don't see a problem there as much as the extra compression on an old motor. Could this supercharger be immune from the same problems that the boost coming from a turbo involves?
-
It's 127 at the rear wheels which is roughly 150 HP at the crankshaft. This is an increase of 14 crankshaft/12 RWHP before the supercharger. Adding the cost of the other mods to the $3400 for the supercharger gives you an accurate cost for the increase to 188 RWHP. The pulleys, A/C compressor, brake resevoir, fuel injection rail, etc. could make this a $4000 turnkey deal. I would guess that the earlier modifications contribute geometrically to the supercharger's effect. My estimate is 50 to 55 RWHP with the supercharger on an otherwise stock motor.
I guess my question is what were the prior mods and how much did they cost. Are we looking at $6K for this deal.
.
-
I guess my question is what were the prior mods and how much did they cost. Are we looking at $6K for this deal.
.
They didn't really do much; just a chip and some magnecore wires. I have the first article posted on PDF that recounts everything they did. It will be interesting to see what DA includes in their kit. It should be complete and I would guess that it will include all of the necessary pieces.
-
I wouldn't think the previous chip would be a factor; I'd imagine any previous chip would be replaced because different fuel mappings would be used due to the forced induction?
-
I wouldn't think the previous chip would be a factor; I'd imagine any previous chip would be replaced because different fuel mappings would be used due to the forced induction?
I would have thought that too, but they bought the chip right before knowing that they were going to install the supercharger, and they made no mention of a new chip in the article. HMMMMMM??? :confused:
-
Well they couldn't have had a new chip considering they were helping design a new kit; any chip that came with the kit would be for the Z3.
My prediction is that, logically, the E30 kit would have to come with a custom chip made by the guys at Downing Atlanta.
-
M42 in 318is is rated at 136 HP by BMW * .85 driveline loss = 116 RWHP. GRM's original number is 119 RWHP - what you would expect. GRM has 125.7 at rear wheels with only the addition of Magnecor wires. I am confused! Could power be understated by BMW (this would indicate 148 crankshaft HP) or overstated by GRM?
http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525 (http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525)
Makes me curious as to using coil packs which eliminate plug wires altogether.
http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34&highlight=coil+packs (http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34&highlight=coil+packs)
-
They used the same chip they put in previously.
For that little boost, a chip change would probably not be required, the computer should compensate just fine.
-
dyno readings cant be taken too literally. that said, the increase was quite decent.
also, dont discount the fact that this is a basic kit. boost increase, more effective management, and youd have yourself a stonking little car.
what do the e36 dasc guys get when the up it to 11lb?
-
i kinda wish they didnt supercharge it, so we can have more in common with the project, those of us who dont have supercharger bank...
-
i kinda wish they didnt supercharge it, so we can have more in common with the project, those of us who dont have supercharger bank...
They pretty much did all of the normal stuff we do before they added the supercharger.
I wonder what else they have planned though.
-
I'm extremely interested in this because I want more power, but I don't want to swap. I was afraid I would HAVE to swap. If I can get this much for 3-4 grand, I'd rather this than put in another engine for the same price.
-
DO IT!!
Then tell us all the details . . .
I'm extremely interested in this because I want more power, but I don't want to swap. I was afraid I would HAVE to swap. If I can get this much for 3-4 grand, I'd rather this than put in another engine for the same price.
-
I'm extremely interested in this because I want more power, but I don't want to swap. I was afraid I would HAVE to swap. If I can get this much for 3-4 grand, I'd rather this than put in another engine for the same price.
Way I see it is I can buy a good M50 motor with wiring harness for $1,600. So, I figure $3,500 for a realistic M50 motor swap budget, maybe $4,000 when all said and done. So, with that I've got a higher baseline, and more potential and increased reliability.
For another $1,000 or so, you could do an S50 or S52 swap. Even more potential.
I really want more torque, not hp, so I think the inline 6 swap is the way to go, at least for me. :cool:
-
I'm more interested in the power in higher RPMs. I'm not looking to street race or do smokey burnouts (although they are fun). I'd rather have something that screams up top while I'm rounding a wide turn. I have really looked into swaps, and I'm borderline M50. This just popped up at the right time to possibly sway me to rebuilding the M42 and S/Cing it. I really don't know exactly what I want to do. The idea of the lighter car with the S/C 4 sounds awesome, but then so does having a bigger 6 stuffed in there. I need some sleep.....
-
The supercharging the m42 will only add 15lbs to your car allowing your 318 to retain its famed handling abilities (notebly better than the 6's) while also retaining its full economy. I vote for the charger . . .
I'm more interested in the power in higher RPMs. I'm not looking to street race or do smokey burnouts (although they are fun). I'd rather have something that screams up top while I'm rounding a wide turn. I have really looked into swaps, and I'm borderline M50. This just popped up at the right time to possibly sway me to rebuilding the M42 and S/Cing it. I really don't know exactly what I want to do. The idea of the lighter car with the S/C 4 sounds awesome, but then so does having a bigger 6 stuffed in there. I need some sleep.....
-
I think I'm to the point where I agree. No 6 for me! Now I just need to get the charger, and start doing more suspension. :)
-
I can shed a little light on the DASC kit for the M44. My other car is a '98 318ti and I've been on the Yahoo group and 318ti.org for years. The DASC kit for the M44 doesn't involve any ECU reprogramming. It bolts right on. One of the downsides of not having new software on these engines in the requirement to retain the DISA valve which is not used by the DASC. If you take it off, you get a CEL. A gentleman named Nick at http://www.techniquetuning.com has produced three different stages of software and various hardware upgrades. His stage three makes 17.5 more hp than just the DASC. This product is only for the M44 engines. I don't know if he plans to do anything with the M42 since this new kit has come out. I suppose if there was enough interest he might be persuaded, but I'm just guessing.
-
The problem with adding the charger to a E30 rather than E36 example is of engine age. The lowest you really see as far as miles is in the 120K range on a 15 year old motor. I say it's only a matter of time before that GRM M42 goes kaput. Then you're talking about a $2K rebuild plus $4K for the blower (if you don't install it yourself like most here would do).
The above adds to the ever increasing delemma of the M42. Any way to add power isn't going to be cheap at all, and at that point, even a cheap M52 motor with M3 cams is going to push 220hp and cost WAY less than any M42 option. I'm all for the M42, but once mine goes, I'm going to wave good bye when it gets replaced by a S50 or S52. You figure for any performance rebuilt M42, like Febi's, you're looking at a good $4K once the old motor is out, and the new one is in. You can get a cherry E36 M3 motor for $3500, then figure about $2K in the swap, and you get 210rwhp outta the box for only $1500 more than a new M42.
-
You can get a cherry E36 M3 motor for $3500, then figure about $2K in the swap, and you get 210rwhp outta the box for only $1500 more than a new M42.
These figures are commonly quoted but every S52 swap I know of that has been done correctly has run about $7500 including a taller rear end gear if it's an M42 with a lightweight 4.11. rear end.
Still the age of the M42 is a very good point. I also wondered how long they would last on a high mile motor. You know they are going to get pushed.
-
From the mechanically challenged side of yard, this is great! First to see the time spent on the hp possibilities and the potential draw backs.
From what I am seeing the lighter weight of the 318is is a good platform for hp increase. BUT, the age of the car's guts coupled with the improved output could expedite the aging process. So do it and sooner or later blow it or do it and enjoy it for how ever long you have it.:confused:
-
These figures are commonly quoted but every S52 swap I know of that has been done correctly has run about $7500 including a taller rear end gear if it's an M42 with a lightweight 4.11. rear end.
Still the age of the M42 is a very good point. I also wondered how long they would last on a high mile motor. You know they are going to get pushed.
Wow?! $7500 total! :eek: That's disheartening. :(
Well, I guess after my suspension, I'll only have about $4200 in mine, so what
s another $7.5K? hehe TOO MUCH for this beater, that's what it is!
I'll either get my S52 swap done for about $5K, or I'll simply put in a 96-98 328 motor, can't deny 175rwhp outta the box. M3 cams, M50 manifold, a intake, the cutom built exhaust the car needs anyways, and software, and you're well into the 200-215rwhp range. Shoot to save money, I'd probably be happy with just the intake, exhaust, M50 manifold, and software. That should put down just around 200rwhp.
-
New member here, but I have saved all of the GRM articles pertaining to the supercharging of the M42. It has seriously sparked my interest.
I occasionally swap emails with (Roundel guru) Mike Miller. As some of you may know, he spent 130,000 miles in a 318is. He's very high on them.
I ran the E36 M3 engine swap by him, and his opinion was that a 6 cyl. motor would ruin the 318is handling. He likened the contrast as kissing Roseanne Barr or kissing Jennifer Aniston. That was enough for me.
-
Sure, but I don't think Jennifer Aniston is hot, and god damn, Roseanne Barr is a whole lot of woman. DSLs.
-
Pardon me while I hurl.
-
So can anyone post up the following articles ? I want to see how they fixed the engine's lean problem
-
Pardon me while I hurl.
HAHA. nah, do it up. s/c m42 would be SO much fun!!!!
-
So can anyone post up the following articles ? I want to see how they fixed the engine's lean problem
Well...there have been NO follow-up articles. I have e-mailed GRM twice in recent months wanting to know the same thing. No response. My hope is that Downing / Atlanta has the appropriate fuel injectors in their kit. I'm planning on contacting them to find out, just haven't done it yet. Need to find and purchase a worthwhile 318is first.
Does anyone have concerns about how a 50% increase in power for the M42 will affect the 318is drivetrain / differential?
-
The small case diff is good for a little over 200hp ...if you were to install the supercharger, it would prolly be a good idea to check out the driveshaft (wiggle for any play) and check out the rear end (unseal the diff, check it out etc.).
more power will cause already failing stuff to fail in a hurry.
-
So can anyone post up the following articles ? I want to see how they fixed the engine's lean problem
They added in March if you haven't seen the web page already...
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/news/category/project-cars/current-project-cars/1991-bmw-318is/
-
I've owned the GRM project car for a couple of weeks. It seems to be running fine but has a couple of problems. The ICV needed replacing and a couple of days after doing that the tube that they used to move the ICV came loose under the intake manifold. So far it looks like everything up to the head will have to come out to replace it and I'll need a better solution to keep it from happening again.
Other than that it still seems to be running fine. Once I get it back to running well I'm going to put a megasquirt on it. I've had it for just a couple of weeks and in that time it's only ran well for a couple of days but so far the power seems to be good for a real driver. It isn't crazy fast but it's fast enough. As it is it needs more handling before it needs more power.
-
I have a slightly used DASC kit on the way to me. I emailed Tim Suddard, Grassroots Motorsport editor, to ask how the project car ran while in their possession. He said it was awesome, except the supercharger belt came loose more often than it should. I have replaced all my suspension (and then some) and will be replacing all the hoses (+ ICV) under the intake. I am cautiously optimistic about my project.
Thank you for posting. Good to know your car is in good hands.
Patrick Kennedy
-
The 92 and 93, I think, M42's had a tensioner for the serpentine belt. I'm guessing that it would fit this application and it isn't terribly expensive. I suspect that would be a better solution than the idler pulleys that are on the car now.
The belt does occasionally squeal and always squeals for a few seconds when the A/C comes on.
Once everything is running correctly I plan to check into it.
-
I've owned the GRM project car for a couple of weeks. It seems to be running fine but has a couple of problems. The ICV needed replacing and a couple of days after doing that the tube that they used to move the ICV came loose under the intake manifold. So far it looks like everything up to the head will have to come out to replace it and I'll need a better solution to keep it from happening again.
Other than that it still seems to be running fine. Once I get it back to running well I'm going to put a megasquirt on it. I've had it for just a couple of weeks and in that time it's only ran well for a couple of days but so far the power seems to be good for a real driver. It isn't crazy fast but it's fast enough. As it is it needs more handling before it needs more power.
Cool! I wana see some pics, oh and if you don't mind me asking how much did you pick it up for?
-
In answer to the question of what I paid, given what I found this weekend I'll just say too much. :) Compared to some pictures of engine bays I've seen here, this car is pristine though.
I don't have pictures ready yet but I'll try to get some up after I have the car back together.
I took the supercharger off this weekend and found what I think a lot of people do. The Idle Air and PCV hoses were all either cracked or disconnected or both. I'll be doing the cleanup that's described on the mess under the intake thread. The throttle body already does not have the warming plate.
I also found that the serpentine belt was misrouted and was so loose that by turning the supercharger pulley the belt would easily slide without turning the engine or AC over. How the AC worked is beyond me. I suspect the car will feel different when it's back together. The PCV worries me, if it blew off due to too much blowby from the boost, that wouldn't be good.
I was also apparently wrong about the 92/93 years using a tensioner on the belt. Apparently one of the idler pulleys is adjustable but it wasn't apparent to me this weekend how.
Finally, there is a pretty good oil leak at the front of the engine. I'll leave that until after I have the car running again, as much as I hate dripping oil around.
-
Hey I live just south of the GRM headquarters. Tim Suddard is the editor in chief, that was his wifes BMW that they mounted the supercharger. One of the guys who is the advertising sales manager for GRM, Joe Gearin is a good friend of mine and I had an opportunity to help them out. The supercharger is made by Downing Atlanta and costs around $4000. Tim told me at the pub that the car has close to 230 hp, and that it drives quite well. If I had 4k I probably would put on one.
-
Hey I live just south of the GRM headquarters. Tim Suddard is the editor in chief, that was his wifes BMW that they mounted the supercharger. One of the guys who is the advertising sales manager for GRM, Joe Gearin is a good friend of mine and I had an opportunity to help them out. The supercharger is made by Downing Atlanta and costs around $4000. Tim told me at the pub that the car has close to 230 hp, and that it drives quite well. If I had 4k I probably would put on one.
In the GRM they claimed like 3500 for the entire kit. Honestly thats not bad, if it has 200+BHP with ONLY 50-60 pounds added to the front... thats gonna be insane compared to a stock M42 or Built M20 or M50 swap IMHO
-
If I can get the car running again I'll let you know.... I replaced the front crank seal and seemed to have messed up the crank timing.
-
Nearly a year later and it is running again.
Not that this is interesting but it bugs me when other people leave threads dangling.
I don't get to work on this often, the car hasn't really been drivable since last August.
Since then I've done the following,
1. Replaced the front engine seal.
2. Replaced the timing chain cover gaskets, one broken guide, and the tensioner.
3. Replaced the cam cover gaskets.
4. COP kit.
5. Deleted the mechanical and aux fan.
6. Installed an electric radiator fan.
7. Replaced the low speed resistor.
8. Replaced the expansion tank.
9. Removed the power steering belt.
10. Replaced the in tank fuel pump, deleted the second pump GRM added.
11. Rerouted the upper radiator hose, flipped and split the one that came with the car so that it is below the top of the radiator.
12. Reseated the expansion tank.
13. Reseated the expansion tank. Notice a trend?
14. Replaced the radiator, goodbye leaking expansion tank/ deleted the electric fan. I'm pretty sure that the replacement tank was leaking due to mold flash under the o-ring. I was about to break out the silicon when I saw a new radiator on craigslist. Probably a good thing, the new one takes fluid a lot faster than the old one, it was probably becoming clogged.
I drove it in to work today for the first time in months. I still can't get the coolant to bleed correctly. I can fill it to the top of the expansion tank neck without fluid coming from bleed screw. I spent a fair amount of time idling this morning without the temp gauge going more than a little over half way, but I need to figure that out. I also need to find a better way to mount the electric fan I have than to use the through the radiator pins that came with the fan. I didn't mind doing that on the old radiator that was in there but not on the new one.
Finally, the car is running well now. It isn't frighteningly quick in the way that my Cooper S is ( at low speeds ). I haven't had it over 4,500 RPM though, it will take a few drives before I have enough confidence to do that.
It is throwing a check engine light occasionally. I haven't read it out yet to see why.
What's left that I know of.
1. belt tensioner. The belt that is on it is too short for the tensioner that is on it. To fit the belt has to go on the outside of the wheel which actually lifts it off of the crank wheel. The belt squeals a bit and the grooved side of the belt goes over the wheel, something that can't be good for its life.
2. Lifter tick. I'll need to replace them but I'd like drive it a bit to see what else needs fixing before I take it apart again.
3. Fast idle when warm. It idles under 1K until it warms up.
4. Sloppy suspension. Something is soft. It isn't obvious what, all the rubber I can see looks to be pretty solid and new. I'm guessing the subframe bushings, wish I had a list of everything GRM did to the car.
5. Use up the gas that has been in it for nearly a year.
-
Had to update, after three days of driving it to work, it is running much better. I've had it a bit over 5K RPM and it seems the higher it revs, the better it sounds and feels. The clicking seems to be gone from the lifters as well.
I also think that some of what I thought was sloppiness in the suspension was just my lack of feel for the car. Overall I'm pretty happy with it.
-
You're really doing some work there...you sound like you're enjoying it though! Post some pics. If you really want us all green with envy, post a dyno chart...
I love GRM.
-
After I get the electric fan back on, replace the temp switch on the radiator, figure out the fast idle issue, and then drive it a couple of weeks I'll take it to a dyno and post the results.
I'm pretty sure the idle is just due to someone having adjusted the idle stop up to accommodate vacuum leaks and fuel pressure issues but I didn't get a chance to check it out this weekend.
GRM is the best magazine out there by far.