M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
FAQ / REFERENCE => How-To's => Topic started by: sheepdog on May 21, 2006, 09:12:29 PM
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Recently one of our own members had an engine failure in an nexpected way. It has often been said that when opening an M42, expect to find a bolt laying inside. When we opened up this member's engine (Febi Guibo) what we found scared not only us, but also a well known engine builder. The motor had 160k miles on it.
As many of you know, our pans hang awfully low. They tend to get bashed a bit, not to mention our high strung motors and similar owners high strung driving style leads to lots of vibration. All leading to lots of loose bolts, especially since Germans it seems do not know how to torque a bolt, they are about 10-20% below torque compared to other manufacturers using similar size bolts.
My thanks to Metric Mechanic (http://www.metricmechanic.com/) for letting Febi and I pull his pan to get this information.
Basic rundown of what happens.
When BMW designed the M42, they made the oil pickup bolt to the oil pan,
which bolts to the block. This is sealed by an ear of the pan gasket. When the bolts come loose and fall out, the front edge of the pan, can slide forward, allowing the pump to suck air from the oil pan. When this happens there is no way to prime the pump, or get any oil to flow. Run too long like this and the engine will grind to a halt. Also, there was no oil leaking from this engine, so do not use this as a gauge to see if yours has the problem.
Every M42 owner should consider doing this!
I will make it as simple as I can. It is possible to do with simple hand tools.
Sorry for the cheesy Photoshop graphics, but they get the point across.
Note* All pictures can be clicked for a higher resolution version. As always you do this at your own risk.
How to diagnose and prevent.
First thing to do is drain your oil. (17mm)
Jack up the car, be sure to block the tires, use stands or ramps, not just a
jack.
With a 10mm wrench remove the lower oil pan. If you are lucky you will not be missing any bolts. I will be adding part numbers and specs for the
bolts later for those missing them.
With a flashlight, look up into your pan. Laying on your back, you should see something like this:
(http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/pan-nomark_alt_sm.jpg) (http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/pan-nomark_alt.jpg)
Inside there should be 6 bolts.
The thee bolts closest to the dipstick along the front are the 3 most important ones we are looking for, however you obviously want all of them. Blue designates a pan bolt.
Pink designates the hole for the dipstick.
(http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/panmark_alt_sm.jpg) (http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/panmark_alt.jpg)
If you were to remove the upper pan, this is what you would see with an
overlay of the gasket.
Here you can see the little extra piece that goes around the oil pump pickup. As you can see, there is really nothing to hold it in place other than those front bolts (terrible design in my opinion).
(http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/block_marked_sm.jpg) (http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/block_marked.jpg)
Here is what happens when those bolts fall out.
The pan gasket shifts forward, allowing the pump to suck air from the oil pan.
On this engine, you could actually see a small tab of the gasket hanging out in front of the block.
This is what the gasket looked like when the pan was removed.
(http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/airsuck_sm.jpg) (http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/airsuck.jpg)
When we removed the lower pan, all of the bolts were tight.
The upper pan however, was extremely loose. Some bolts came out with our fingers! When we got inside, 4 bolts were missing, one was finger tight. If you look real close in the pictures with the pump pickup, you can actually see threads pounded into the pickup. The pan would drop down, a bolt would get just underneath, and then the pan would get hit, imprinting the pickup with its threads.
Repair
My advice is to tighten as many upper pan bolts as you can reach, which is not many. You may even want to consider pulling them one by one, and adding Locktite (blue). Then remove the lower pan, and find all of your bolts (odds are at least one will be sitting in the pan) and add some Locktite to all of them before re-installing the lower pan. I will try to acquire the pan bolt torque specs, I reccomend 10-20% increase on that number, which is what I was recomended to do.
If you think your motor is not like this, I did a quick check today on the
outer upper pan bolts I could see from outside and I have at least one upper pan bolt missing. My lower comes off this week for a complete check, and I am contemplating jacking up the engine to re-torque/replace all of the upper pan bolts. my motor only has 140k miles.
Note* There are 2 bolts at the very rear of the upper pan, they are not accessible without removing the trans, nice one BMW! (dumbasses). The good news is that both were as tight as the day they left BMW. Which is another reason why I suspect bumping the pan, (along with engine vibration, particulaarly from teh timing chain and oil pump) is the cause of all of this.
Update: apparently there is 2 access holes to allow you to access these bolts through the bellhousing.
Bolt torque specs:
Bolt torque depends on quality of the bolts.
Stock bolts the proper torque is: 10 nm (89 in-lb)
Better high end bolts (higher grade) can go 12nm (9ft-lb) *Note the change to foot pounds.
Jim at Metric Mechanic recommends adding about 10-20%, but that is your call.
Thank Eurospec for finding those.
For the curious, here is a shot of the block as you see it without the upper
pan and gasket installed.
(http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/block_sm.jpg) (http://www.m42club.com/images/pumpsuck/block_sm.jpg)
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I recently replaced my lower oil pan gasket because I thought it was leaking (appears to be the upper gasket...) and I did find a bolt loose and all the others were finger tight....kinda scared me and my friend. We tighten them all but I think I'll check the upper pan now. I guess it must be the case on many M42s
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Updated:
Added the following near the bottom.
Note* There are 2 bolts at the very rear of the upper pan, they are not accessible without removing the trans, nice one BMW! (dumbasses). The good news is that both were as tight as the day they left BMW. Which is another reason why I suspect bumping the pan, (along with engine vibration, particulaarly from teh timing chain and oil pump) is the cause of all of this.
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check my sump ;)
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My mechanic did this recently and according to him, lifting the motor off the mounts makes this a bit easier, which means, if you havent done it yet, changing the motor mounts at this time also would be a good idea.
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Great writeup - thanks!
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check my sump ;)
Yikes!
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holy, next thing on my list is checking that. my pan doesn't look like its been hit too many times, and i put on a skid plate so i think i should be ok "crosses fingers"
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Umm, well.
I guess I can skip the check...
1/8 mile from home, I coasted to within 500 feet of my driveway, and pushed it the rest. While I have not pulled the pan, I know this is what it was, I did catch it as soon as it happenned though.
No, I am not joking.
The good news is that I caught it just as the light came on and killed the engine, so with any luck, there will be no damage.
Seriously guys, do not wait. I was days away from checking it.
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Which light comes on to warn you?
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low oil pressure lamp will be illuminated if that occur on you engine
my next mod will be oil pressure gauge..
Do you know where to screw oil pressure sensor?
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Just as an FYI:
Upper oil pan gasket part number:
11131739592
Lower oil pan gasket part number:
11131709815
Are there any issues or gotchas when installing the new gaskets?
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Are there any issues or gotchas when installing the new gaskets?
The crossmember is in the way. Necessitating a lifting of the engine.
The 2 rear-most pan bolts are covered by the transmission bell housing. Necessitating slding the transmission back a few inches or the engine forward a few. 2in. should do it.
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Just changed the lower pan gasket today and found two bolts. this seems like its worth checking out for you guys that havent
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BMW continues a tradition:
http://terrysaytherauto.com/M60OilPumpBoltProb.htm
What's with these guys? If it's not the pan it's the pump!
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I just fired off an email, to them regarding what we are finding.
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Did mine today - everything was about as tight as when it was put together... :)
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I think 1 hour in race track will solve your problems ;)
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Anyone recall the size of the bolts?
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M6x18 according to realoem.com
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Bolt torque depends on quality of the bolts.
Stock bolts the proper torque is: 10 nm (89 in-lb)
Better high end bolts (higher grade) can go 12nm (9ft-lb) *Note the change to foot pounds.
Jim at Metric Mechanic recommends adding about 10-20%, but that is your call.
Thank Eurospec for finding those.
I also added a note regarding the 2 rearmost bolts, apparently there is access ports in the bellhousing.
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I've removed all the lower pan bolts yet the pan won't come loose, any suggestions? A rubber mallet would seem useful howver, I don't have one.
edit: figured it out
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just pulled mine off today, had a bolt lying in the pan, i was lucky i think i ended up better off cause of my skid plate protecting the pan...
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I changed my lower oil pan back in October when I got my car. Found 3 bolts laying in the pan and a few others that were loose. Nice to know it's not just my 220,000 mile car that did this.
A friend of mine just destroyed his M42 by driving it after the oil light warning went on.....i wonder if this is what happened
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I changed my lower oil pan back in October when I got my car. Found 3 bolts laying in the pan and a few others that were loose. Nice to know it's not just my 220,000 mile car that did this.
A friend of mine just destroyed his M42 by driving it after the oil light warning went on.....i wonder if this is what happened
From what I have seen there are 2 common oil failures on 318's.
The first is the pan gasket shifting as describved above.
The second is the timing chain (and/or rollers) self destructing and damaging the oil pump housing, which is what happenned to BMWman91 and myself. I suspect it has to do with putting a new tensioner in with a severly worn chain. When i get more info I will post a guide to this issue as well.
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^^^ how much does a lower oil pan cost? i'm getting scared of all of these stories, i better change my oil soon.
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^^^ how much does a lower oil pan cost? i'm getting scared of all of these stories, i better change my oil soon.
The pan itself is not a problem, unless yours is damaged. At most you need a lower pan gasket in order to check this.
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From what I have seen there are 2 common oil failures on 318's.
The first is the pan gasket shifting as describved above.
The second is the timing chain (and/or rollers) self destructing and damaging the oil pump housing, which is what happenned to BMWman91 and myself. I suspect it has to do with putting a new tensioner in with a severly worn chain. When i get more info I will post a guide to this issue as well.
So should I hold off on a new tensioner till you can confirm this???
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The pan itself is not a problem, unless yours is damaged. At most you need a lower pan gasket in order to check this.
Bull$hit! I think these things warp (and some crack) with age, making the problem even worse. I considered replacing mine, but I just had it electrostatically cleaned and inspected it carefully.
A new lower pan is only $100. Check Bavarian Autosport at http://www.bavauto.com
I also replaced all the bolts with new ones and put loctite on the ones on the inside. I found three lying in my pan when I dropped it. :eek:
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Bull$hit! I think these things warp (and some crack) with age, making the problem even worse. I considered replacing mine, but I just had it electrostatically cleaned and inspected it carefully.
A new lower pan is only $100. Check Bavarian Autosport at http://www.bavauto.com (http://www.bavauto.com)
I also replaced all the bolts with new ones and put loctite on the ones on the inside. I found three lying in my pan when I dropped it. :eek:
I responded based on the fact that it sounded like he thought the pan itself was responsible for this. It is not. It is merely bolts falling out and the gasket slipping out of possition.
If you pan is not damaged, then there is no need to replace it.
Can the pan warp? Possibly, however there should not be enough heat there to do that and even then, it is not likely to be a problem re-installing even if it is warped a bit. Cracks and damage from impacts can definately occur, and you should inspect it while you have it off, but again, unless there is something wrong with it, then you should not need to replace it.
It is a non-wearing item, same as a valve cover.
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So should I hold off on a new tensioner till you can confirm this???
How bad is your chain?
Mine could be clearly heard from 3400-4500 rpm, not sure how well of an estimate of wear that is, but it is all I have to go on other than saying it was pretty loud.
If it is real bad, I am not sure what to do other than replace it and the tensioner together.
If it is not very bad, a new tensioner may be good for it.
I will report once I get it apart and find out how bad things are. I have no idea if I will be able to find the ultimate cause of the problem though.
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when i go in and remove the lower oil pan, i don't need anything other than standard tools, torque wrench and jack stands right? My question is whether i will need to order a new gasket ahead of time, and if anyone has a part no.?
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Standard tools will be fine. I would replace the gasket. The p/n is 11131709815
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thanks. i forgot to read the thread after my last post. i didnt think the lower oil pan was the actual problem, good clarification by m42boy and sheepdog. i was being retarded. well my car gets insured tommorrow! finally get to drive legally!
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Mine went bad at 135,000 miles- sounded like a diesel at low revs. I put one in and made no other changes. I now have just shy of 200,000 miles on it with no problems so far.
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Pulled the front end apart today, 2in crack in the oil pump housing, and one chain guide is pretty much destroyed. All sprockets are worn to shit as well.
Several factors I think led to this, at least some could be atributed to the new timing chain tensioner.
Pics in a few hours of the pump at least.
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Put in a new writeup. (http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=840)
Heres what I found.
I think I brokeded it.
(http://www.m42club.com/images/doug/IMG_3883.jpg)
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ok wait let me get this straight. If when you take off the lower oil pan you find some bolts, do you just screw in the new ones you bought in the places where they should be? can you re use the ones that fell out?
Or do you absolutely have to take the upper oil pan part?
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ok wait let me get this straight. If when you take off the lower oil pan you find some bolts, do you just screw in the new ones you bought in the places where they should be? can you re use the ones that fell out?
Or do you absolutely have to take the upper oil pan part?
You do not need to buy new bolts.
Pull the lower pan.
Look up. You will see a handful of bolts inside that hold the upper pan in place.
Some may be laying in the lower pan.
Check for loose ones, if they are loose, tighten them, you may also want to consider adding Locktite.
Reinstall the original ones that fell out using Locktite.
All there is to it.
Only thing you may need to buy is a lower pan gasket if you do this during an oil change.
Ask anyone who has had this stuff happen, it is worth every second and penny to do.
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I'm so SORRY for you sheepdog. You've helped us out so much in the past and now this happens to you. So sorry man. By the way, would I be correct in stating to M42 boy that the part being aluminum does give a bit, so any warpage wouldn't most likely be much of a problem. I agree sheepdog, that would be an extreme amount of heat to warp the pan.
One other question about noise. How do I know it's not the fan or fan bearing that I'm hearing and it's the chain? When changing the chain is there anything really special you have to do (other than remove the parts in front of the housing). Would you recommend replacing the sprocket, chain and tensioner?
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I'm so SORRY for you sheepdog. You've helped us out so much in the past and now this happens to you. So sorry man.
This was right at the beginning of this site actually, and not all of this happened to me (though I have certainly paid my dues for this site). The first indicator of a major problem was was Febi Guibo's car as he was driving to Metric Mechanic for his stroker engine. He did not get half way before pan gasket shift happened. We dissected his motor at Metric Mechanic and documented it.
After seeing his, and knowing BMWman91 had his motor die from pump explosion a bit earlier (at the time we all thought it was a fluke), we started putting things together. I had planned on pulling my pan over the weekend when mine did the same as Bmwman91's car did 3 days before I dropped it.
2 different problems, same cause.
All of us who had this stuff happen are responsible for you getting this info, I just happened to be the one who documented it and you could say wrong (or right) place, right time I guess. Until we had a home for this engine, all information of other people having this issue was pretty much lost on other forums due to the mass of 325 owners and issues. Same with most of the other M42 specific info.
By the way, the M42 is not the only BMW engine with this problem. At least one 5 series engine has this issue big time however only one or 2 places will discuss it.
By the way, would I be correct in stating to M42 boy that the part being aluminum does give a bit, so any warpage wouldn't most likely be much of a problem. I agree sheepdog, that would be an extreme amount of heat to warp the pan.
Which part warping? The pan? The pan can give some, the timing chain housing can definitely warp as well. How much of a problem either is, could be debated. I would think pan warpage is not an issue, but the timing chain housing, that could be an issue. It has pressurized oil flowing through it and a spinning oil pump.
One other question about noise. How do I know it's not the fan or fan bearing that I'm hearing and it's the chain? When changing the chain is there anything really special you have to do (other than remove the parts in front of the housing). Would you recommend replacing the sprocket, chain and tensioner?
Take a long screwdriver, and place the point against the timing chain section the other against your ear, may want to try the tensioner. Then repeat on the valve cover. You should be able to tell where it is coming from that way.
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It still blows my mind that this is such an issue. The M42 seems so well designed in other respects...this is such a big oversight! I have a couple of stripped upper pan bolt holes, and I REALLY need to helicoil them. Happens to be the 2 adjacent to the pickup, too. I do nto want ANOTHER pooped oiling system, I am not sure if the motor can take another one!
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Sheep, have you gotten any information back from BMW dealing with this issue being so wide spread? I had to pick up some rotor locator bolts and decided to talk to the maintenance manager. He mentioned that since it is showing itself as a wider issue than one or two owners we should start with BMW NA and they would (at least in my case) send it on to Atlanta and they would take a look at it. The number he gave me is 800-831-1117.
I also talked to one of the maintenance techs there who has been there for a long time. He mentioned that the place where the head gasket leaks is where the gasket goes from the head through the timing chain cover area. He said that it's worth a try giving BMW NA this information as well. Toyota's V6 from the 90's have head gasket issues and come to find out, Toyota put out a bulletin covering the first blown head gasket to be replaced free of cost. Maybe with a little persuation we can get together and see if corporate will make this a bulletin as well.
BMWman - as far as durability, I was talking to the same maintenance guy at the dealership and he told me about a guy bringing his M42 in for engine failure after 6 months. Come to find out he pissed someone off and they poured gravel into the engine through the oil filler cap. He said after looking at it, the only thing that made the engine fail was that for 6 months the engine ground the gravel into a fine powder and when the powder got into the oil pump, that's when it failed. It's pretty obvious we have a very durable engine.
I'll be checking back later.
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Sheep, have you gotten any information back from BMW dealing with this issue being so wide spread? I had to pick up some rotor locator bolts and decided to talk to the maintenance manager. He mentioned that since it is showing itself as a wider issue than one or two owners we should start with BMW NA and they would (at least in my case) send it on to Atlanta and they would take a look at it. The number he gave me is 800-831-1117.
I also talked to one of the maintenance techs there who has been there for a long time. He mentioned that the place where the head gasket leaks is where the gasket goes from the head through the timing chain cover area. He said that it's worth a try giving BMW NA this information as well. Toyota's V6 from the 90's have head gasket issues and come to find out, Toyota put out a bulletin covering the first blown head gasket to be replaced free of cost. Maybe with a little persuation we can get together and see if corporate will make this a bulletin as well.
BMWman - as far as durability, I was talking to the same maintenance guy at the dealership and he told me about a guy bringing his M42 in for engine failure after 6 months. Come to find out he pissed someone off and they poured gravel into the engine through the oil filler cap. He said after looking at it, the only thing that made the engine fail was that for 6 months the engine ground the gravel into a fine powder and when the powder got into the oil pump, that's when it failed. It's pretty obvious we have a very durable engine.
I'll be checking back later.
BMWNA is not likely to care about a 15+ year old car. It served its expected lifespan and then some. They may put out a bulletin saying to check it when they come in for servicing, but that is likely all. Not saying they will do nothing but if the 5 series guys have had no luck, I doubt we will.
There are far more than 2 or 3 members here who have had the problem. I know of at least 4 engines that have failed from bolts falling out, and the number of members who have had bolts in their pans are probably into the dozens.
The gasket he was talking about is the Profile gasket, and it was fixed years ago.
The Profile gasket creates another issue though. Many of our cars had this replaced, and when they did it, the pan was pulled. BMW itself may not be entirely at fault for the bolts falling out as much as many of the dealers are.
I will try and put together some info for BMWNA though and see what they will say about it.
And I am sorry, but I cannot imagine that you could not tell something was wrong with an engine with a cup of gravel or sand in it. Should have made a hell of a racket, and where was this guys oil changes?
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Good thought. He said the guy mentioned alot of noise (dumb@$$), but thought the car sounded like that. Idiot. Anyway. Hope something can happen. Did your engine suffer any damage?
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Good thought. He said the guy mentioned alot of noise (dumb@$$), but thought the car sounded like that. Idiot. Anyway. Hope something can happen. Did your engine suffer any damage?
Nope.
Biggest concern would be a spun bearing, but it takes a bit for that.
I am sure if you took the bottom end apart and looked you would probably find some scarring, but nothing serious. I had good oil in it when it happened plus it was shut off fast.
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I am the founders of this board so thankfull for founding such a great place, giving information and warning fellow M42 owners!
I bought my first 318is with 223.000 km's (don't really know the conversion to miles) That engine failed due to not renewing the chain tensioner. Buying a second engine was cheaper than repairing. Because I doesn't want the same thing happen twice, I removed my lower oil pan yesterday and I found... 3 loose bolts.
Engine has only 137.000km's (so the odometer says :p)
I need to lift the engine to remove the upper low pan I guess?
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I need to lift the engine to remove the upper low pan I guess?
there is no nead to do it if you do not want to replace gasket, just use thread locker.
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I am the founders of this board so thankfull for founding such a great place, giving information and warning fellow M42 owners!
I bought my first 318is with 223.000 km's (don't really know the conversion to miles) That engine failed due to not renewing the chain tensioner. Buying a second engine was cheaper than repairing. Because I doesn't want the same thing happen twice, I removed my lower oil pan yesterday and I found... 3 loose bolts.
Engine has only 137.000km's (so the odometer says :p)
I need to lift the engine to remove the upper low pan I guess?
Lower pan can be done without lifting the engine.
This is all that is needed to do the check and repair.
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okay thanks, but I'm also going to check the gasket of the upper pan, just to be sure.
Can I lift the engine enough when I remove only the bolts of the engine mounts? Or do I also need to release the bolts from the tranny? How much does it needs to be lifted?
thx in advance!
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okay thanks, but I'm also going to check the gasket of the upper pan, just to be sure.
Can I lift the engine enough when I remove only the bolts of the engine mounts? Or do I also need to release the bolts from the tranny? How much does it needs to be lifted?
thx in advance!
If you intend to do anything with the upper pan. Don't.
Unless it is leaking or showing signs that it moved, I would not mess with it as it is best left alone.
To get it in and out, you can unbolt the right side motor mount from the frame (passenger in the US) and lift the motor by using a jack against that. Problem is, this is dangerous as it could fall, and you will be spending time scraping out the old gasket. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Do all this, and then you still need to get the new one in there with some sealant. Not an easy job.
Just pull the lower pan, check for debris and make sure the upper pan bolts inside there are good, then close it back up.
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very good and usefull information, thank you very very much!
I was planning it because I had 3 lose bolts. I just want to check that the gasket hasn't moved. A friend told me into this, just in case.. But since you think that it isn't necessary, I think I won't be bothered eather.
For installing the lower half, just a new gasket will do, or do I need to apply some sealant? (what kind, brand?)
I am getting to know the M42 a bit, I removed the head from my first, and swapped my second :) I can use an engine jack (crane?) for the job.
Anyway, I felt very lucky when I didn't found any debris of the distribution.
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Hi guys i run to this old thread by accident and i only want to say one thing:There is an other reason that you have to remove the lower oil sump.I always remove lower oil sump once a year and clean it from the oil deposits so i have tightened those bolds from the very first time since i changed the upper sump gasket too.Therefore i never had this problem plus if it happens i will notice the bolds inside it.Put this procedure in your annual service day and you will never have to worry about it it is easy and fast to do.My car has 240000km and runs like a charm but im having the engine rebuild just for the fun of it.PRECAUTION the best way to keep your engine running whithout problems 1000s of miles.
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SO i tried taking my oil pan off to check it, I undid all the bolts.
Pan never came off, Gave it a few wacks with a hammer, nothing. Hit it with a 2x4, still nothing, kicked it, still nothing. so i gave up and put the bolts back on. All the bolts i removed looked like they may have had loctite put on them, cause they were all orange looking and it appeared that the oilpan was sealed too cause i could see parts of black sealant. So i donno
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SO i tried taking my oil pan off to check it, I undid all the bolts.
Pan never came off, Gave it a few wacks with a hammer, nothing. Hit it with a 2x4, still nothing, kicked it, still nothing. so i gave up and put the bolts back on. All the bolts i removed looked like they may have had loctite put on them, cause they were all orange looking and it appeared that the oilpan was sealed too cause i could see parts of black sealant. So i donno
You probably missed a bolt on the back side. Easy to do.
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you shouldn't have too much crap building up in your pan if you do regular oil changes; mine looked like new when i did the bolt check, and i had 3 bolts in the pan... I've got 330,000 km's on the engine, and i had it at 7,350 rpm the other day (stock other then cams, injectors, ferrarri MAF and the haltech management system). i'm building a new motor for it right now tho..
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You probably missed a bolt on the back side. Easy to do.
I looked over it like 3 times and ran my finger around the edge and felt or saw no bolts
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Hi all, thanks for the post.
Pulled the sump to find 4 bolts rolling around and 2 finger tight. As a consulation, the oil pickup bolts were tight. Applied Loctite to all the bolts and torqued to 12nm.
I guess I was lucky.
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Hi all, thanks for the post.
Pulled the sump to find 4 bolts rolling around and 2 finger tight. As a consulation, the oil pickup bolts were tight. Applied Loctite to all the bolts and torqued to 12nm.
I guess I was lucky.
Damn, you were lucky.
Good work.
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I did check mine yesterday. Second time I've been in there (first time didn't check the bolts haha). They were below specified torque, but not by much. The pan, though oem with a 90 date cast on it, does show signs of being scraped once. edit: would be helpful to know mileage. It's currently 198k miles.
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Is there any way to safety wire these bolts together or to something else? Or is Loctite the only way to cure the problem?
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Is there any way to safety wire these bolts together or to something else? Or is Loctite the only way to cure the problem?
You could call around machine shops or race shops and have the bolts drilled for safety wire. May even be able to find them pre-drilled someplace.
A bit of Locktite and check them every few years is probably more than enough though considering they stayed in there this long. It is not like it is expensive or difficult to check.
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Hi folks, i hate to mine threads but i think because of this thread the m42club has saved my engine from premature failure.
Aussie 1990 318is, 255,00 k's on the clock im going away for a trip tommorrow and wanted to make sure the car was as good as it could be.
I unbolt the lower pan and theres 4 bolts sitting there.... last time i did an oil change was at the mechanics, hes a mate of mine and i mentioned its a common thing and he said hes never heard of it and not to worry. so i sent him a pic of the bolts sitting in the pan lol he was surprised
a bit of loctite to all the bolts and all is well, like other people all the other bolts were only finger tight
thanks folks!!!! you saved me a premature engine rebuild...
but i did find 2 bits of timing chain in the pan aswell..... thats going to have to be assessed fairly quick, what are the chances of it falling apart? god knows how long its been like that for.
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You could call around machine shops or race shops and have the bolts drilled for safety wire. May even be able to find them pre-drilled someplace.
A bit of Locktite and check them every few years is probably more than enough though considering they stayed in there this long. It is not like it is expensive or difficult to check.
Safety wire DIY:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0002_hand/index.html
Drilling Jig:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/drillingjig.php
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Hi folks, i hate to mine threads but i think because of this thread the m42club has saved my engine from premature failure.
Aussie 1990 318is, 255,00 k's on the clock im going away for a trip tommorrow and wanted to make sure the car was as good as it could be.
I unbolt the lower pan and theres 4 bolts sitting there.... last time i did an oil change was at the mechanics, hes a mate of mine and i mentioned its a common thing and he said hes never heard of it and not to worry. so i sent him a pic of the bolts sitting in the pan lol he was surprised
a bit of loctite to all the bolts and all is well, like other people all the other bolts were only finger tight
thanks folks!!!! you saved me a premature engine rebuild...
but i did find 2 bits of timing chain in the pan aswell..... thats going to have to be assessed fairly quick, what are the chances of it falling apart? god knows how long its been like that for.
Good thing you checked and glad we could help.
From what I and a few others have seen, the chain breaking up is not an urgent, must fix now problem. I had a ton in mine before I had a problem. The issue is if you have those bits, PLUS the loose bolts.
It is a chain of events that creates the big problem:
First bolts come loose and some minor chain bits break off. These events are not because of each other and you may have bits in there for years or bolts in there for year, you never know.
The bolts work their way against the pump pickup.
You hit the pan on something. Speed bump, driveway, etc... Mine was a small ramp going over a fire hose when it did the damage I think. When hit, the pan flexes driving the bolt head through the pump screen. You may or may not see anything other than minor scratches on the pan. So do not count on a leak or crack.
Eventually the bolt falls out over time and chain bits get sucked through the hole into the pickup and the oil pump, which then shells (explodes). This usually will happen at a decent rpm, I was at 6k rpm.
At which point it takes about 1/2 second for the oil light to come on, and you will also hear something is wrong. You can probably get away with another 30-40 seconds before you will spin a bearing. I shut mine off immediately, like fraction of a second, but turned it back on for 10-20 seconds to make it up a hill so I could push my way home. Engine was fine. You figure the engine starts with no oil so... More than this though could mean an entire rebuild.
When this does happen and you do not spin a bearing, the parts to repair it can run into the thousands. The parts alone run nearly $1000, in fact the timing chain housing which holds the oil pump is around $300 by itself. Best thing to do is avoid losing the pump and if you do, buy a used engine to cannibalize parts or just swap the engine entirely. I found a used engine for $200, and Bmwman91 got his parts for less than that used. If you do the parts swap instead of the engine swap, be prepared, it is quite an undertaking. Probably easier to do the engine swap.
Basically as long as you do not have loose bolts in the pan, you can put off the timing chain for a bit. I would advise replacing the chain, ALL sprockets and the tensioner, regardless of its age. Be aware you may also need to replace some chain guides. These can double the cost of the job.
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Thread stickied since this is important and common.
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Interesting issue here.
Now since I do not remember using locktite on those during my engine build up, I'm going to have to do it in my drive way or get the 55 gmc out of there.
Brrr.
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Why does realoem show that's my oil pan?
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BE63&mospid=47480&btnr=11_1957&hg=11&fg=10 (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BE63&mospid=47480&btnr=11_1957&hg=11&fg=10)
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hey everyone!! I have 188k on my m42 decided to drop the oil pan today and see if there were any loose bolts ( thanks to this sick forum) found 1 in the pan and the rest were finger tight. I just wanted to thank u for giving a priceless piece of information to other m42 entusiats. The internet is truly a great place... Most of the time!! Just wanted to give my thx to those who lost and allowed for us to gain!! -E
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Three bolts in the pan here. All but two of the lower upper pan bolts were lose. The scavenge bolts were also loose.
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After reading the HORROR STORIES I decided to pull my lower oil pan this spring during an oil change .With 200,000 miles I was expecting disaster but I had no bolts in the pan .I had two bolts that were finger tight and the others were still factory tight (89 inch pounds). I pulled the two loose ones and used permatex blue upon re installation.
BUT ...................... I did find some chain roller pieces ( see pics ) so it looks like a timing chain job in the future . I'm sure it must be the original chain .
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r73/bogeyman700/oilpan007.jpg)
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r73/bogeyman700/oilpan003.jpg)
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wow, don't wait too long with that timing chain job.
My previous engine had 139k miles on it. No lose bolts in the oilpan, it was one of the first engines, November '89 built.
But! there were a lot of pieces from the timing components in the oilpan, the chain slipped a tooth and all of my intake valves were bent...
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Yeah just like Asserti said make sure you do that timing chain job, because I remember when my dad was driving his E36 318is it just suddenly shut off. It was weird because he said he didn't hear anything luckly he was pulling on our street right when it just died. He didn't know at the time what exactly happened but when they took the engine out and opened it up they found out that the timing chain slipped. Intake valves were bent and it was just a massacre lol. Anyways I have the 318is now but I wanted to see does this also apply to the E36 M42's? I just want to make sure because if it does I wanna get this done before I finally start her up after a long years wait.
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scarrrryyyyy, too bad i didn't see this weeks ago, when i did the oil change. mine has 99,600 miles on it and i've put about maybe 30 miles on the oil change....i hope this job can hold off until i drive it 3,000 miles so i dnt have to waste my new oil. but theres no use in hiding it, this topic has scared the $h1t out of me :eek:
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scarrrryyyyy, too bad i didn't see this weeks ago, when i did the oil change. mine has 99,600 miles on it and i've put about maybe 30 miles on the oil change....i hope this job can hold off until i drive it 3,000 miles so i dnt have to waste my new oil. but theres no use in hiding it, this topic has scared the $h1t out of me :eek:
If your engine is quiet, then you will likely be okay, if it is noisy, I would open it up.
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Is there a torque sequence to follow if I replace the lower oil pan gasket ?
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scarrrryyyyy, too bad i didn't see this weeks ago, when i did the oil change. mine has 99,600 miles on it and i've put about maybe 30 miles on the oil change....i hope this job can hold off until i drive it 3,000 miles so i dnt have to waste my new oil. but theres no use in hiding it, this topic has scared the $h1t out of me :eek:
hehehe.. you can drain your oil in a tank, have a look on this bolts and then refill the engine again...!!no waist..
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I just did the job last night when I changed my oil for the first time (I just got the car a week ago). I was actually surprised to see ALL upper pan bolts still in place! Still, I removed the three bolts around the oil pickup tube and Loctite'ed them and retorqued them, then retorqued (without Loctite) the remaining bolts. I probably should have removed and Loctite'ed all of the bolts, but it was very late and I was bone tired and just wanted to finish. Plus I figured that if the bolts have stayed in for 166k+ miles, they would probably be fine :)
Is there a torque sequence to follow if I replace the lower oil pan gasket ?
If there is, it really makes no sense. The pan is under no particular stress and the bolts have very low torque on them, so I see no need. Just skip around on opposite sides of the pan when you re-torque, that's what I did.
-Winston
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I know this thread is regarding the oil pan bolts being lose, but I have heard a few of you mention finding pieces of timing guide components in your oil pan.
Well not to scare you or anything but.......
I am rebuilding a engine for a chap who lost the chain guide, a chunk of it got into the crank gear, rolled over it, slipped the chain, bent all 8 intake valves and seized the motor.
See the square piece with the big teeth marks in it?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/Ernest%20M42/DSCN0286.jpg)
Final result, 8 bent intake valves.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/Ernest%20M42/DSCN0292.jpg)
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ouch
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i pulled my lower pan last week and i didnt have any bolts in my pan. they were all tight but a little under spec.
but i found that my pan is cracked in 2 different spots:mad:
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Thank you sheepdog for this info, it really has been helpful. You are pretty good about these things. I apologize in advance for being a newbie. I'm 40-something, work part-time at a body shop, have been doing all my own mechanical repairs since high school.
I bought a 1991 318ic from craigslist. Paid $450 for the car knowing the top was bad and some accident damage (need a passenger side door+partial qtr, anyone?)
Was told it ran fine, but surprise, surprise, when the car was delivered from Cali to PA, there's the awful diesel clacking racket and the oil pressure light stays on. The car DOES run and idle, does not miss out the exhaust. Doesn't run too well under load though. No water in the oil, etc. There's a lot of oil around the oil pans, upper an lower, but the oil level on dipstick is fine. Perhaps someone knew there was a problem and kept driving it? Miles are about 120K.
OK, Say I pull the lower pan, and worst case, the upper pan shifted, the oil pump got fried. I'm pretty good at finding used parts, we have a few "pull ur parts" here, I can find a replacement lower chain cover (since the one in there is probably cracked like yours was) and replace all the timing chain parts with new. I can replace the oil pan gaskets because I suspect something shifted, thus all the oil over the pans.
Since the chain didn't break, can this engine be revived and give me good service? Or should I just scrap it and try to find a new one?
Any checks I can perform to tell before I rip into it?
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You can rebuild the timing assembly and get it to last a very long time, possibly. The oil light is not a good thing (obviously).
The only way to know the condition is pull the valve cover and check the cam sprockets. Pull a main cap, and do a leakdown test.
You may be better off finding a used motor.
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Sounds like the odds are not in my favor. Well, at least the chain isn't broken.
I'll try compression and leak down tests and go from there. It could be worse, I suppose.
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FYI I have a 91 (duh) with 130k on it. I got a new gasket and went ahead and replaced the bolts around the oil pan as well as the drain plug. I opened mine up and everything felt great. No bolts or anything unusual in the pan, and the oil still looked nice and clear. I went ahead and torqued them a little bit on each bolt for good measure, but nothing loose. Whew!
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So I bought an m42 car this last Wednesday everything checked out okay except for an oil leak coming from the upper oil pan bolts, (no big deal) the top of the block was dry. On my way home from work Thursday night the oil pressure light came on so I checked the oil and it was only 1/8 from full, I topped it off just to be sure, the oil light was still on. So I did some reading an found this thread. So I pulled my lower pan to check the upper pan bolts, they were not to spec but seemed to be tight enough to hold the gasket in place.
So now here is my question... What is this in my lower pan. Obviously the dime is there for size reference although looking back at all the money I have dumped into my engines it would be nice to open them up and get it back out. :)
So what is it??
(http://home.comcast.net/~harley261/100_2237.jpg)
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pieces of your timing chain
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Looks like I'm a big winner here. 91 318i with 175,000mi or so on the clock. Had the timing cover profile gasket fail recently and finally got around to fixing it. Got it almost all back together but before I started it I ordered the pan gaskets after reading this thread. Loose bolts and one in the pan. Good looking out gang, looks like my arse is safe for now :D
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scary....i need to check mine soon!
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I am doing this today, and was wondering about swapping the bolts out for allen head screws.
Bad idea??
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I am doing this today, and was wondering about swapping the bolts out for allen head screws.
Bad idea??
I wouldn't say that's a bad idea... but its not a good idea :) I'd recommend new hardware with the same size as factory.
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I just reused the same bolts.
None were loose, and there was three peices of chain, but also three chunks of gasket....
Don't know where the gasket is from, but I am geussing I'll find out eventually...:rolleyes:
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I just reused the same bolts.
None were loose, and there was three peices of chain, but also three chunks of gasket....
Don't know where the gasket is from, but I am geussing I'll find out eventually...:rolleyes:
Haha Yes you will! where there isn't a gasket there is a leak!
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It was green gasket material. Same color as the lower pan gasket (and I am geussing upper).
You think my upper pan gasket is getting chewed where they normally push out?
Or maybe a part of a gasket on one of the timing chain covers??
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It was green gasket material. Same color as the lower pan gasket (and I am geussing upper).
You think my upper pan gasket is getting chewed where they normally push out?
Or maybe a part of a gasket on one of the timing chain covers??
I'd start by pulling your timing case cover off and i'd bet its missing a piece of the gasket from where the lose pieces of chain bounces around.
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Yup, I found a floating bolt in my oilpan today! Check yours if you haven't already!
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/m42sport/IMG_1011.jpg)
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I put a new block in and decided to avoid the possibility of the gasket slipping by using black gasket compound for the upper and lower pan. A lot of Japanese imports don't even have oilpan gaskets and just use compound. You can really torque the upper pan into the iron block.
Oh, and 291k on the original block and none of the bolts were loose.
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I know old thread but... Know one answered the guy who asked " Is this a common problem on E36 318is?"
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Thanks guys... just checked my pan and found one upper bolt loose and one floating in the bottom of the pan :eek: .
So, retorqued and good to go. Good news - no other bits of anything in the pan, so hopefully I'll be good for another 170k ;)
(http://www.kylejochai.com/reflexgti/318is/318is-Oilpan1.jpg)
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Is this a common failure in e36 m42 b18
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The e36 does not have a 2 peice pan, any bolts falling out, fall outside of the engine bay onto the ground.
Check them, but you do not have to worry about sucking anything into the pump.
(The pickup could still come loose, but its far, far less of an issue.)
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The e36 does not have a 2 peice pan, any bolts falling out, fall outside of the engine bay onto the ground.
Check them, but you do not have to worry about sucking anything into the pump.
(The pickup could still come loose, but its far, far less of an issue.)
Thanks man. I love this site
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k
so i first read this..say.. around july?
i was like...ehhh ill get around to it..
well last night after pullin the tensioner...i figured wth i might as well check the oil pan...
so when i pull it and i looked inside my thoughts were WTF! :mad:
heres a pic:cool:
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk170/xwill112x/oilpan.jpg)
and the other two were turnable by my fingers!:mad:
but i got it all fixed now...air wrench+locktite= not coming loose in the next century.
but i still love the car no doubt, and this forum for all the help...thx guys.
M42 FTW!!!
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Yikes!
That is cutting it too close.
There is a reason this is stickied.
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just got this car with a known blown head gasket. dropped the pan today, found 5, yes 5 bolts in the pan
yikes
glad I pulled the pan
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so you are saying my M42 in my 1993 e36 will probably not have this issue?
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Pulled mine today.
ALL 6 bolts in the pan!
Pan had a small crack just behind the drain bolt too.
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From what I have seen there are 2 common oil failures on 318's.
The first is the pan gasket shifting as describved above.
The second is the timing chain (and/or rollers) self destructing and damaging the oil pump housing, which is what happenned to BMWman91 and myself. I suspect it has to do with putting a new tensioner in with a severly worn chain. When i get more info I will post a guide to this issue as well.
You can include me as well. My Timing chain just broke. I will be pulling the head this W/E, but from what i am reading the motor is basically toast...Any advice?
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guys! im doing this repair right now found no bolts but still wanted to be sure everything was fine so i dropped the lower pan, removed all bolts from the upper pan except the ones that are held to the transmission bellhousing.(not the 2 bolts that are reachable by the bellhousing). you know, those wierd bolt heads, torx like? i just cant remove those bit*hes, so i guess i have to cut them. how did you guys do it?
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You can include me as well. My Timing chain just broke. I will be pulling the head this W/E, but from what i am reading the motor is basically toast...Any advice?
24v swap :D
guys! im doing this repair right now found no bolts but still wanted to be sure everything was fine so i dropped the lower pan, removed all bolts from the upper pan except the ones that are held to the transmission bellhousing.(not the 2 bolts that are reachable by the bellhousing). you know, those wierd bolt heads, torx like? i just cant remove those bit*hes, so i guess i have to cut them. how did you guys do it?
Did you round them off or do you not have the right sockets to get them off? They're external torx bolts, and they sell a cheap set of sockets for them at AutoZone.
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You can include me as well. My Timing chain just broke. I will be pulling the head this W/E, but from what i am reading the motor is basically toast...Any advice?
m52 swap ftw
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As soon as the weather gets a bit better over here in the UK I will be getting under the car and going to have a look
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The 2 bellhousing bolts are a real bitch, I was sure I would round them but at the last moment that came out. I soaked them with some PB a few times that seemed to help.
As for options...
A bigger motor WILL change the dynamics of the car. There is no way around this as the e30 was designed for a lightweight 4cyl engine. E36 was deigned for a 6, so it is better to go that route with those. After lots of research I still recommend the same 2 engines I did a while back for anyone doing a swap. Keep in mind, no swap is simple, but if you are going to do it, make it cheaper and one with readily available parts if you plan the car to be more of a driver than a show car. A BMW motor is all nice and good for prestige, but parts for the swap can cost a fortune and you are VERY limited as to what you can do with the motor and what to pick from. The two engines I recomend are the Ford Duratech from the Ranger and the GM Ecotech. The Duratech is almost the exact same weight as our motor and perfomance mods are abundant. You can use the Focus motor (better intake) but you will likely the Ranger trans/bellhousing, these parts may be available on other Ford vehicles. The Ecotech, you need the bellhousing from the Sky or Solstice, or an aftermarket one (about $500). An alternative is a few of the Mazda/Kia(?) motors, for ideas on this, see what they are doing with Miatas.
The think to remember is our motor weighs around 250 pounds and the front cylinder sits over the front axle, and we use somewhat slim tires and wheels. Weight up front, especially in front of the axle will effect how the car handles. How much and how important that is, is up to you. The motors I listed above will keep things almost identical and perfomance mods are cheap, plentiful and well documented. GM has a pdf on their site on how to get 1000hp from the Ecotech (not cheap!) but even still, as Febi's car has proven, 200+/- hp in an e30 chassis makes for a HELL of a car. That is not asking that much from any of the motors listed.
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Hi!
Yesterday, I did check my oil pan and guess what I found...
(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/528/atelier07.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7344/atelier08.jpg)
Pretty scary isn't it?
The car has 220500km (136780 miles) on the clock.
I also found this, can anyone tell me what this could be?
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/613/atelier09.jpg)
Here is my 318is, she's glad to be cured from this threat.
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7383/atelier02.jpg)
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Woo hoo! I had two in mine! Lower pan and gasket came off nice and clean. Tomorrow she gets some gas and se if she'll start.
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Can I revive this one a bit?
So I have a small oil leak in mine. The PO had the chain, guides, and tensioner replaced, but I dunno about the oil pan gaskets. I was under the car just inspecting and it looks like it is not coming from the lower pan, but I can' see where.
It's not the head but I'm pretty sure it's at the front of the motor. Could what is described in this thread be the source?
I smell oil after I've driven it and I've just assumed it was the small amount that has leaked hitting something hot. Car runs perfect and no oil pressure light at all.
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The main seal is a weak point, but it was probably replaced with the chain case R&R. I'd guess it's the oil filter o-ring & gasket. If you smell warm oil after a long trip it's likely the cam cover gasket leaking onto the exhaust manifold.
I've given up on tracking down oil leaks...I'm not sure how BMW let this one off the drawing board...
However, I have an M20B25 that's rock solid but it's nowhere near as fun to drive as the M42.
I have this theory that BMW had a delegation from Alfa Romeo come up & help them out on the E30 M42. It's not nearly as stodgy as the rest of BMW's lineup...and the excitement of wondering if you'll make it to your destination...priceless!
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The main seal is a weak point, but it was probably replaced with the chain case R&R. I'd guess it's the oil filter o-ring & gasket. If you smell warm oil after a long trip it's likely the cam cover gasket leaking onto the exhaust manifold.
Do you just mean the valve cover? I think it's golden, but will double check.
When you say the oil filter O Ring, do you mean the one internal to the housing?
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Do you just mean the valve cover? I think it's golden, but will double check.
When you say the oil filter O Ring, do you mean the one internal to the housing?
Yup - the one that seals the housing to the block, 8 & 9 in this RealOEM diagram (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AJ93&mospid=47318&btnr=11_0506&hg=11&fg=30).
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I also found this, can anyone tell me what this could be?
chain guide washer as I remember.
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Newbie here-thank you to everyone sharing their experience. I had a question about the sealant I'm reading about in this thread-are you applying the sealant to the pan and then putting the gasket on before putting it back on the car? What type of sealant do you like.
Thanks-
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chain guide washer as I remember.
Ok, thanks :)
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I did this check today. No bolts were out but 3 were loose. As for what sealer to use. I used a non hardening gasket sealer on both the oil pan and the side of the gasket that faces the oil pan. let them sit for a few min so they flash. when they are tacky put them together. On the other side of the gasket I used an rtv type sealer. A small bead that went around each hole. Overkill.. maybe, but I don't want it to leak any time soon.
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Well, add me to the list of evangelists on this...
(http://longtallsallygs.smugmug.com/Cars/318is/IMG6366/730478811_DmRwm-L.jpg)
These are the holes that were missing the bolts:
(http://longtallsallygs.smugmug.com/Cars/318is/IMG6368/730478844_9QFso-L.jpg)
I've not checked the rest yet, but take a wild guess who just got out the lock tite...
A very sincere THANKS for this forum keeping this as a sticky!!!
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Well I get to heli-coil one of them. :mad: This obviously means some moron was in there before and just thought horking the heck out of them was the way to go as opposed to using correct technique and- shocker- torque spec. :confused:
Oh yeah, every single other one was way loose on the outside as well. My poor little car.
On a OH NO note, there were a bunch of bits of something in the pan as well. My thoughts are that the defective creature that was in there before and did the timing stuff didn't bother to drop the pan and clean out the old guide bits that blew up.
So I got to spend an extra 15 minutes removing and cleaning out thoroughly the pickup screen. I am just so infuriated at people that seem to go out of their way to destroy vehicles based on ignorance.
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I did mine today, four bolts in the pan. The others were in there pretty good though. I used some loctite and torqued them up.
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I need to do this shiet ASAP! I just bought my 318is w/193k....my guess is i'll find at least 3 in the pan.
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I need to do this shiet ASAP! I just bought my 318is w/193k....my guess is i'll find at least 3 in the pan.
how did your "guess" go
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Just did mine, here are a couple of tips:
1. Blue loctite is now available in a gel in a 10 gram twist-bottom container, ~$15 online. I really like the way it sticks to the threads on a bolt rather than dripping. http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/24010.pdf
Also available in a 5 gram squeeze tube ~$7 online.
2. My guru, an independent BMW mechanic and shop owner for 30 years, prefers the grey RTV for both sides of the gasket. Smooth with finger a uniform layer covering all the gasket surface, not just around bolt holes or down the middle. But he says that even more important than the exact type or color of RTV is the curing time. Years ago he found a published study that indicated that the probability of seal failure decreased dramatically with extended cure time before adding oil and firing it up. His shop practice on oil pan gaskets is to let the RTV cure at minimum overnight, and they don't fail.
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I guess I'm the lucky one. Dropped the oil pan yesterday to check. No loose bolts, no missing bolts. Damage to the fins on the backside of the pan, though. Go figure.
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Is this a problem on E36 318 with an M42? I just literally spent all freakin day gettin the oil pan out. I have no idea how i am even going to get my car back together. suspension parts had to be loosened, steering moved...PITA
and my pics donot look like the original OP's pics....what am I missin?
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DUde you took out the UPPer pan. THe Lower pan is easily accessed by just jacking up the car. Oh well you I bet theres alot more things you can replace while your there.
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so far as I can tell there is only one oil pan on my E36 310IS. Its the pan with the drain plug and oil dipstick tube inserts into.
regardless it was a PITA and i'll have another day trying to get the suspension back together.
No bolts were loose in the oil pain tho. which I guess was a plus, but after all the damn work, i was almost hoping there would be something
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E36 has only one pan and all bolts are external. It's the inside ones on the e30 that are a concern
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E36 has only one pan and all bolts are external. It's the inside ones on the e30 that are a concern
thanks for the reply.
a bit late, but thanks nonetheless.
I started to figure that the E36 was different even tho its still an M42 when the removal procedure was well above and beyond anything i had read and then one of the pics matched up...
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You do not need to buy new bolts.
Pull the lower pan.
Look up. You will see a handful of bolts inside that hold the upper pan in place.
Some may be laying in the lower pan.
Check for loose ones, if they are loose, tighten them, you may also want to consider adding Locktite.
Reinstall the original ones that fell out using Locktite.
All there is to it.
Only thing you may need to buy is a lower pan gasket if you do this during an oil change.
Ask anyone who has had this stuff happen, it is worth every second and penny to do.
I know this is an ancient thread but I'm about to do this myself this weekend. Curious about why you say you may need to replace the lower pan gasket if you do this during an oil change. Not following what you mean by that statement.
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You should never re use the sump gasketit will never seal right
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You should never re use the sump gasketit will never seal right
Ok, thanks -- I thought I saw something on a earlier post saying that if you're just dropping the lower pan, you don't need to replace the gasket. It's 12 bucks, so yeah...
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Finally did this today. Single bolt in the pan, 3 of the remaining were finger tight... This is on a M42 that just turned 106k. Loctite + 11nm adds a feeling of comfort. Don't wait checking on this.
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Been driving my e30 for 7 years now, just joined last month and accidently found this sticky while chasing down a completely unrelated problem. Car has maybe 250k on it but I figured I'd better check it anyway. Sure enough, one in the pan, 2 more loose and the others undertorqued. Thank you for this.
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No loose bolts here, looks like the PO was in there. However, the pan was cracked in three places. :eek: New pan in now in place.
There was a very fine copper-colored sediment in a few spots in the oil pan. Any idea what that is?
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That is bearing material
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That is bearing material
*cringe*
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That is bearing material
*cringe*
Hmmmn. Well there wasn't much and the engine has 284,7xx miles on it so...
I wonder how I know if I need to worry. :confused: The engine's running fine, etc.
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I don't think there is any need to worry, if it starts clattering too much, it's time for a rebuild. 284k gives me hope
I just like to pretend my engine doesn't wear. It makes me sad to see particulates.
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I don't think there is any need to worry, if it starts clattering too much, it's time for a rebuild. 284k gives me hope
I just like to pretend my engine doesn't wear. It makes me sad to see particulates.
I'm not really worried about it. It wasn't much and it was dust, not flakes. If I saw flakes I might be worried, but a little dust, not so much.
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when i do this i plan to retorque the bolts with lock-tite. so would it be fine if i just retorqued the stock bolts to 10 nm (89 in-lb).
or should i go get better bolts the same size and torque to 12nm (9ft-lb). i can just find bolts like this at autozone right?
and is it important to know the lower pan torque specs?
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I just pulled my lower pan today.
No bolts in the pan but 3 were under torqued. The pan itself was in good shape and didn't look like it had been hit.
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I just did this tonight ... the oil pan looked good but had some "sand" looking stuff in it which I cleaned out. There were 5 out of the six bolts in place ... the sixth was missing, not in the pan. Its the one closest to the dip stick tube, so I think the PO got frustrated and didnt put it in place. I took the opportunity to get a good look at the lower rear of the engine. Needless to say it is nasty. I'm wondering if I should hold out for doing the upper pan gasket too.
Gerta
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Just finished mine last nite. 4 out of 6 in the pan and it has 177,000km (just over 100,000 miles) on the clock. I put some locktite, new gasket (old one was a b***h to remove), new oil filter and semi-syntetic 5-50 oil. The engine seems a lot smoother now
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I'm rather shocked as I took off my pan two days ago, and found that ALL the screws were on tight. Perhaps the PO caught this before I did? Who knows.
Regardless I always tell M42 owners now about this problem!
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Thank you,everyone.
I found this site,read up,like a good Libra.
Sure as poop,I pulled the pan this afternoon.
91 318i,140K,bone stock,run hard,serviced very
well,as I am a mechanic by trade.
One bolt in the pan.
THREE of remaining five are finger loose,or tight,
depending on your attitude.
Two center ones,tight as a drum.
The one dropped bolt was trying very hard to
chew thru the soft steel cone of the scavange pipe.
Good thing it was stuck under it.
Pick up bolts were undertorqued,so I did em all.
11NM with a tiny bit more twisted into the wrench.
I felt the tight ones,they were at that level of tight.
So,I duplicated it as well as I could.
So relieved. I really did not want to look into it,for
I knew the possiblility existed of parts and chunks
laying there,as well.
Spotless,otherwise.
CIA analyst owned it from new,so I was lucky a
persnickity type had it serviced very well.
Thank you ,everyone.
Steve Wilson
Kuztown,Pennsyltucky
P.S. I used the old gasket. I know everyone frowns on this,
but the surfaces were perfect and the gasket was clean.
I used the VW waterpump sealant. I have found this stuff,
dealer sourced,works superbly on everything I have used it on.
Put the thinnest coat possible,perfect seal.
Man,what a relief.
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does this apply to e36 m42?
edit: NVM found it on page 6. no this does not apply to e36 m42 if anybody else is looking for an answer. this should be added with the sticky.
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Ironpaws...great first post! The pan bolts can kill a motor in no time. Good thing you got them done.
Vang...do you know when the two part pan was replaced by the one-piece? Are all of the e36 M4x motors the later design?
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Ironpaws...great first post! The pan bolts can kill a motor in no time. Good thing you got them done.
Vang...do you know when the two part pan was replaced by the one-piece? Are all of the e36 M4x motors the later design?
i have a 1995 e36 m42 myself and the oil pan is 1 piece. i'm pretty sure all e36 are 1 piece.
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RealOEM agrees, even the earliest production e36 has the one piece pan. Thread name changed to reflect the facts. Thanks MrVang!
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yes i have a first run 1993 E36 and it is a 1 piece
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Thanks for this thread!
169K on mine and 5 bolts had come lose and had dropped on the lower oil pan! Only one one bolt was still up and it was only finger tight!
I have a small oil leak between the upper oil pan and the engine block. I think that with these screws back in place the leak will stop!
Score!
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I had to do a thermostat this weekend and figured why not get everything going. So I embarked on this check too, replaced the thermostat, waterpump, and started the mess under the intake stuff.
Boy am I glad I did this. I had an oil leak that I really couldn't figure out from the top of the motor. But I am thinking it was because I had on bolt in the pan, and the rest finger tight.
The ones I could reach with my fingers I could spin with one finger, the ones I couldn't spun easily by hand with an extension.
I went ahead and took them all out, locktighted them, and retorqued.
I hope this solves my oil dripping issue, my driveway would appreciate it :D
Oh and on a side note, watch when you torque your oil pan bolts. I wasn't thinking when I was using a small cordless impact gun to quickly get all 100 of those bolt started in. I had a chatterbox neighbor talking my ear off from above, and left it on a second to long and stripped one. I will dripp and tap it next weekend, no big. Just annoying.
Thanks big time for this thread!
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A wise man once taught me to always start bolts by hand if possible. Then again I worked with many transmissions pans, so soft aluminum was a major issue. Either way I've always found it good practice. Just my 2 cents. Though I will agree, that pan has quite a few bolts, I remember 20-26 give or take.
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I did this this weekend when changing the oil. No bolts in the pan and all were tight. i snugged em but my torque wrench starts at 10 lbs and I don't trust it that low. There was some sludge and a little grit in the pan, but no chain bits or bolts or timing rail plastics in there. Cleaned pan, reused old gasket (pan came off easy - was not RTV'd on or anything), refilled with 10w40 Mobil1 High Mileage synthetic and was on my way! Was glad nothing was in the pan, but i still need to do the timing rebuild.
there was quite a bit of gunk stuck on the side of the case up the sides above the oil pan, but I chose not to scrape it off and potentially let some loose bits off in the oil.
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i just bought a 91 318is and it leaks oil pretty bad out of the pan, im not sure if its the upper or lower gasket but hopefully it is the lower one so i dont have to pull the motor, if it is just the lower gasket should i be able to pull the lower pan off without lifting the motor up any? and once i have the lower pan off will i be able to tighten up the upper pan bolts in case any are loose?
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yeah, the lower pan comes off after the bolts around it are removed, and the bolts attaching the upper pan to the engine will be able to be accessed.
Clean the threads, use loctite, and dont overtorque "just in case"
you dont want to break any off..
Geoff
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GREAT thread. I came on board here about a yr ago,read about this deal,went directly to the garage to my 150K 91 318i,found two bolts doing their very best to recreate the womb in the oil pickup. Two more were finger tight and came out easily by hand. The two left were weak,but snug. I did the 20 percent tighter deal,loctite,very careful and deliberate with the torque,felt fine. SO GLAD I read this. Man,what a scare. I also cleaned and loctited the oil pickup tube bolts,two of em. What a design. Looks so very pretty on paper. Anyway,Im going to drop that pan next summer and check it all,agian.
DO NOT be afraid to do this. Its simple,takes no time at all,really. You cant foul it up if you just follow the instructions,herein. So important to do. Well done,everyone.
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Ive read through the seven pages and its so clear to me that this is a major
design foul up. Its so simply attended to that it needs saying,If you have an M42 with the split pan,you MUST check the bolts. Its far less trouble than it
sounds. When I first read this,I literally ran down to my garage and turned on the radio and just settled in for a grime filled afternoon.
It wasnt close to a hassle.
Its easy,takes little time and it gives you peace of mind you cant buy.
The awful part is that probably ten percent of owners even know about it.
I was like most folks,I discovered it by accident while looking for something else,entirely. What a relief....
I did NOT remove the pickup tube,just gently removed,cleaned and loctited the two bolts,plus a bit. They let you know what they need.
NO need to buy new bolts,these are super good quality fasteners.
I even swabbed out the threads in the block,to make sure the loctite was
going to work well.
And,guilty,I did NOT buy a new gasket for the pan. VW waterpump RTV.
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This is a very old thread, but it may still be of interest to some.......
It appears that oil mist and oil thrown about in the crankcase can work its way up into the oil pan bolt threads, and result in the bolts loosening.
While locktite may work for some time, I would not trust it as a long term fix.
One suggestion that may assist the locktite solution would be to place fresh copper washers under the bolt heads. That should form an effective additional seal to prevent oil from reaching the threads.
Cheers, Tony.