M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Suspension => Topic started by: Frankie on June 20, 2008, 05:24:41 AM
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I recently swapped a E36 steering rack to my E30 IS. The object was to get faster steering since E30 non-power steering is quite slow.
I then swapped power steering rack and emptied and capped the lines. Then I drove to race track to test it.
Comments: Don't do it. First of all, its too heavy and it is not faster at all. When doing laps in race track I had to turn the wheel in corners as much as with E30's steering rack.
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A power steering rack is not going to work well with the lines just capped off. It was designed to operate with power assist.
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A power steering rack is not going to work well with the lines just capped off. It was designed to operate with power assist.
? Are u sure, could you elaborate more on that issue.
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? Are u sure, could you elaborate more on that issue.
If the rack was designed for power assist, it's going to feel heavy without that assist - I've never seen a car where there wasn't a pretty significant difference between power and manual steering components.
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Are you sure you have an E36 rack? How many turns of the steering wheel does it take to go from lock to lock? What about your old rack?
A power steering rack is not going to work well with the lines just capped off. It was designed to operate with power assist.
I installed a depowered E36 rack and I couldn't be happier with it. Its much quicker than my old rack and extremely easy to turn when the car is moving.
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My steering also feels heavier with the E36 rack, but after driving for a few weeks I became accustomed to it.
Driving in Italy's narrow roads and streets is definitely better with a 3.2 LTL rack than 4.7!
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If the rack was designed for power assist, it's going to feel heavy without that assist - I've never seen a car where there wasn't a pretty significant difference between power and manual steering components.
Cīmon, of course I know that, I was sh*tting with you!
Turns are about 1,5 turns to full left or right. The rack is from 318i E36.
Its not faster or I can at least say, that I dont notice any difference. And the steering is way too heavy. Of course I was expecting it to be heavier, but not that heavy.
KEFLAMAN How did you put those washers into those those two bolts which attach steering rack to subframe? I put them to upper side of rack. What numbers you have in that rack. I have 7852955277 and 1028041091.
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Cīmon, of course I know that, I was sh*tting with you!
Turns are about 1,5 turns to full left or right. The rack is from 318i E36.
Its not faster or I can at least say, that I dont notice any difference. And the steering is way too heavy. Of course I was expecting it to be heavier, but not that heavy.
KEFLAMAN How did you put those washers into those those two bolts which attach steering rack to subframe? I put them to upper side of rack. What numbers you have in that rack. I have 7852955277 and 1028041091.
You said you just plugged the P/S ports? That might be causing your problem, every time I've seen someone convert a power rack to manual, they used a jumper hose to connect the ports. You might be fighting the old assist system.
OP, read this: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61766 If you haven't already made a mess of that rack with the plugs, install the jumper hose if you insist on going with manual steering. If you emptied all of the fluid from the rack, it had no lubrication and you may have already wrecked it.
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It does not break even if it is emptied. I can try to open those caps and see if it has any difference.
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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say you don't know the difference between an E30 and E36. Just the off chance that you bought the part from someone that already pulled the part for you. 1.5 turns from straight ahead to full left or full right sounds right for a 3.2 turn E36 rack. Maybe your car was already equipped with a 3.5 turn E30 M3 rack before the swap so the difference would be very small. My stock E30 rack was 4 turns from end to end so switching to a 3.2 turn rack made a huge difference.
I can't comment on steering effort.
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I recently swapped a E36 steering rack to my E30 IS. The object was to get faster steering since E30 non-power steering is quite slow.
I then swapped power steering rack and emptied and capped the lines. Then I drove to race track to test it.
Comments: Don't do it. First of all, its too heavy and it is not faster at all. When doing laps in race track I had to turn the wheel in corners as much as with E30's steering rack.
There may be some misinformation you have heard. Most E36 racks are about the same ratio as the E30 rack.
There is only one very specific rack that you are looking for. That would be a 95' E36 M3 rack. This rack kicks ass. The steering is amazing quick. Turning radius is super tight. Almost too darty its so responsive. Combined with new tie rod assemblies, new control arms, M3 CAB's. Kick Ass!
One customer said it was the best upgrade to his car. I have done the conversion on 2 E30s now. Both air bag and non air bag.
Sounds to me like you guys got the standard E36 rack which is no different then the E30. Oopps.
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the non M z3 rack is the best. some people say it is just less turns lock to lock becuse it doenst turn as far but my tires rub at full lock
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There may be some misinformation you have heard. Most E36 racks are about the same ratio as the E30 rack.
There is only one very specific rack that you are looking for. That would be a 95' E36 M3 rack. This rack kicks ass. The steering is amazing quick. Turning radius is super tight. Almost too darty its so responsive. Combined with new tie rod assemblies, new control arms, M3 CAB's. Kick Ass!
One customer said it was the best upgrade to his car. I have done the conversion on 2 E30s now. Both air bag and non air bag.
Sounds to me like you guys got the standard E36 rack which is no different then the E30. Oopps.
I think the above comments apply only to the US E36 M3 or US E36 cars. I know equipment options can vary considerably with country.
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Hey PEERLESS... does it have to be a 95 rack? Did the 96 and 97 M3 racks have different L2L ratios or something? I have a line on a 97 rack setup.
Since you've done a few of these, if I did a 95 (or 97) rack in my 91 318is are there any adapters or other parts I will need to make it happen? I suppose I'd need new tie rods and a good alignment. I already have new M3 CABs and control arms.
Thanks!!!
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There may be some misinformation you have heard. Most E36 racks are about the same ratio as the E30 rack.
There is only one very specific rack that you are looking for. That would be a 95' E36 M3 rack. This rack kicks ass. The steering is amazing quick. Turning radius is super tight. Almost too darty its so responsive. Combined with new tie rod assemblies, new control arms, M3 CAB's. Kick Ass!
One customer said it was the best upgrade to his car. I have done the conversion on 2 E30s now. Both air bag and non air bag.
Sounds to me like you guys got the standard E36 rack which is no different then the E30. Oopps.
I don't know who is misinformed, since in every website is presented the following info: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=66247
From there you can read that every E36 has quicker steering than E30
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I tossed in a 1997 1.9L Z3 rack and love it. It is 2.7 turns versus the stock E30 ratio of 4.0. I am running it with PS assist as going without PS really didn't feel like it had THAT much more road feel. The difference was more than noticeable to me...for the first week or so I would turn the wheel too far for a corner lol.
Hope you work everything out!
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Oh and based upon my research, the Z3 rack is the desirable one as it has the shortest ratio. The M3 ones have a 3.0 turn ratio, and I was told that they are not as robust as the Z3 unit. Either way, it beats the crap E30 stock one. Check out http://www.car-part.com. Call around. I got my rack for $200 with 120k miles on it and NO leaks.
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Oh and based upon my research, the Z3 rack is the desirable one as it has the shortest ratio.
The thing is, the steering ratio and number of turns from lock to lock are not related to each other. The Z3 has a 12" shorter wheel base than any E36 which gives the Z3 a much smaller turning radius. The radius can become so small that the car would be dangerous to drive for an inexperienced driver. In order to prevent this BMW moved the stops inside the Z3 rack to limit its travel compared to a normal E36 rack. This helps maintain a similar turning radius despite the shorter wheel base. The regular E36 and Z3 share the same rack ratio of 15.4 turns of the steering wheel for 1 full 360 degree rotation of the front tires. Obviously its impossible to turn the front tires 360 degrees but the rack ratio is expressed in this way. By comparison the E30 rack has a rack ratio of 19:1 while the E30 M3 was around 17:1. There no doubt that the Z3 rack is a vast improvement over the stock E30 rack but in normal driving it will feel exactly the same as a 3.2 turn E36 rack. At maximum lock with my E36 rack the the inside front edge of the tire actually rubs the sides of the plastic under tray while the stock rack didn't. I rarely have to turn the wheel that far even in slow speed parking lot situations. In this respect, the 2.7 turn Z3 rack is superior to the normal E36 rack.
cheers
Justin
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my tire rubs the undertray with the z3 rack too, its quicker. Why do you think there are e36 m3 guys that upgrade to z3 racks?
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From there you can read that every E36 has quicker steering than E30
Not trying to argue, but if every E36 rack is quicker then why did you start this thread in the first place complaining that it is no better then the E30 rack?
I mean that makes no sense at all. You start a thread stating not to do this mod because its the same as the E30, yet then you come back and say every E36 rack is quicker. And since the E30 rack is about 4.0 turns L/L and the 'standard' E36 being 3.2 L/L It is indeed quicker.
And I know for a fact the 95' E36 M3 rack is much quicker. And in the case of both swaps, the PS was hooked up and correctly functioning. Maybe if your PS was functioning it wouldn't be so heavy.
In addition for reference, the stock US E30 M3 rack has a ratio of 19.6:1 which is the same as the US E30 Rack, the 95' E36 M3 rack has a ratio of 14.9:1!
And just for reference.
There are 3 different ratios that E36 cars came equipped with. All non-M 3-series coupes and sedans 92-98 came with a 3.2 turn lock-to-lock rack. M3s and M Z3s 96+ had a 3.2 ratio rack as well. 95 M3 had a 3.0 turns lock-lock rack and a 2.8L Z3 96+ had a 2.7. All of the racks look virtually the same, Z3 rack looks different but all the mounting points and the hose attachments are the same as all other E36 racks. It is really easy to tell the racks apart by just looking at them. Silver (unfinished aluminum) racks are 3.2, Gray (anodized) are 3.0 and Z3 racks look like E30 racks with a steel plated tube.
And when I said the standard E36 rack was the same as the E30 rack, that was a generalization. As the best rack to swap is the 95' E36 rack. ;)
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Hey PEERLESS... does it have to be a 95 rack? Did the 96 and 97 M3 racks have different L2L ratios or something? I have a line on a 97 rack setup.
Since you've done a few of these, if I did a 95 (or 97) rack in my 91 318is are there any adapters or other parts I will need to make it happen? I suppose I'd need new tie rods and a good alignment. I already have new M3 CABs and control arms.
Thanks!!!
Yes it has to be the 95' rack. As I mentioned it is very specific. Info presented in the above posts.
No adapters needed. All you need to do is modify the firewall and make a new cover plate. And yes new tie rod assemblies and a alignment will be needed.
See the following write up.
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Articles.asp?ID=136
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All you need to do is modify the firewall and make a new cover plate.
I didn't need to modify the firewall. I ditched the plate Inside the firewall.
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The consensus, despite a few contrarians, is that this is a very valuable swap for the E30. I've been toying with the idea of getting the swap done, because the steering is the only serious complaint that I have with my '91 318iS. I've had the control arms replaced recently too, which improved matters slightly, but there's a long way to go.
My complaints are that the steering is far too disconnected at highway speeds, especially when not pointing straight ahead. Not only is the steering too slow, but it's also way too light. If I'm driving briskly in my '97 Jetta TDI, I have a firm grip on the wheel and great control. In the BMW, it almost seems that it needs a delicate touch, and a firm grip only makes matters worse.
Long story short - we know generally speaking that an E36 or Z3 rack is quicker, and that's great. What happens to the weight of the steering with this mod, especially at high speeds? Will it get heavier?
Also, I'd go to a mechanic to get the swap done - what sort of prices should I expect to be fair for this mod?
Hopefully somebody can enlighten me :)
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I have found a bunch of differing opinions on the E36 racks, so I decided to ask BMW.
This was their reply:
Vehicle-------------------------Steering Ratio-----Turns (Lock-to-Lock)
1995 M3------------------------variable 17.6:1---mean 3.0
1995 and 1996 - other 3 Series--16.8:1-------------3.4
1997 3 Series-------------------15.4:1-------------3.4
1996 and on M3-----------------variable 15.6:1 mean
1996 Z3------------------------13.9:1-------------2.75
I posted this near the end of the R3V thread as well. Someone replied about the amount the wheels actually move compared to the # turns lock to lock, but after looking at the actual ratios, wouldn't the Z3 be the quickest? I thought that the ratio was directly related to the amount the wheels move compared to the steering wheel. Or am I missing something that has to do with the length of the rack and the setup of the tie rods?
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My brain hurts, I just want nice steering on my E30 *cries*
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Not trying to argue, but if every E36 rack is quicker then why did you start this thread in the first place complaining that it is no better then the E30 rack?
I mean that makes no sense at all. You start a thread stating not to do this mod because its the same as the E30, yet then you come back and say every E36 rack is quicker. And since the E30 rack is about 4.0 turns L/L and the 'standard' E36 being 3.2 L/L It is indeed quicker.
And I know for a fact the 95' E36 M3 rack is much quicker. And in the case of both swaps, the PS was hooked up and correctly functioning. Maybe if your PS was functioning it wouldn't be so heavy.
In addition for reference, the stock US E30 M3 rack has a ratio of 19.6:1 which is the same as the US E30 Rack, the 95' E36 M3 rack has a ratio of 14.9:1!
And just for reference.
And when I said the standard E36 rack was the same as the E30 rack, that was a generalization. As the best rack to swap is the 95' E36 rack. ;)
Well, I did not explain my case clear enough. I have a non ps IS and tried to get faster steering by swapping to e36 rack. I drive my IS on track mostly. There I did not notice any significant difference between the 2 racks.
I read from various sources that the difference (including that web source) that is is much faster. Well, its not. As you said steering ratio is not that faster compared to E30 racks.
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hey guys can we put some part no's down to finish off this topic? thanks
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Attached you'll find an image I've made showing three specified racks.
I have measured how many millimeters the rack moves for each revolution.
I think this shows the different ratios pretty good.
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and the e36 m3 is faster then the regular e36 and the z3 is faster still
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and the e36 m3 is faster then the regular e36 and the z3 is faster still
The E36 series has two different racks:
* Standard, which is also used on the 3.2L M3
* M3 3.0 Unit (I have not measured this yet) But this is second hand data i have from another site:
* * M3 3.0 - 39 mm/rev - the slowest available rack. This is a variable ratio but it is slower than standard until 200 deg hand wheel angle
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ok i am think about buying a z3 unit, but i dont know which one to get or which part no it has
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I'd suggest trying to find a rack out of a junkyard. I picked up an e36 rack with no leaks for $25. The difference is very large; I'm somewhat confused as to how you cannot notice the difference. I had a leaky 3.0 turn rack in the car for awhile as well, but the difference between it and the 3.2 turn rack wasn't large enough to justify a price difference. I have no experiece with the Z3 rack.
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i'm bout to do this swap using a '94 E36 steering rack. I'll hook up the PS lines even though i figure they'll leak. I may depower the rack with fluid left in and call it a day.
I'll let you know how it goes.
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i'm bout to do this swap using a '94 E36 steering rack. I'll hook up the PS lines even though i figure they'll leak. I may depower the rack with fluid left in and call it a day.
I'll let you know how it goes.
You are better off draining the rack. I've been driving with a drained e36 rack for 10k miles now. It's still as tight as the day I installed it.
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I've had a powered, standard e36 rack installed for about 7.5k miles with no leaks. Big improvement from the old, leaking E30 rack even though it is the 3.2 one vs the 3.0 or 2.7 one.
I did put in all new low pressure lines and a used, good condition high pressure line, so there's probably more chances of leaking if all the lines are old.
I had it de-powered for a while when I was sorting out some issues with the pump belt tensioner (belt removal only, rack was not drained), and I did not mind normal driving, in fact I actually liked it. Parking and low speed maneuvering was a hassle though, and since I do lots of that, I opted to keep it powered.
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Swap Completed: Mission Accomplished
Okay, I did it. Quite a thrash --will take half the time next time. (Ha, like there's ever a next time...)
Swapped in a standard e36 rack, with help from this thread, into a 1991 318i with an airbag.
All the tips were pretty much correct.
My thoughts:
1. The position of the column through the firewall must vary a bit from car to car. Mine was up against the bottom corner of the firewall opening (with plate removed). I made a completely new plate AND augured out the firewall using a die-grinder and a carbide tip. Like knife through butter. The idea is to put the column in the CENTER of the round hole that the rubber boot slides into (per stock). This is the cleanest way and offers the best weather protection. Yes, it's a pain to make a new plate. But not as big a pain as getting the boot back in place. Sheesh, no way to really grab the sucker to pull it into position!
By the way, the RMEuropean pic with the firewall marked is what I had to do. Some cars you need to open up the firewall, others you don't.
2. You really need to loosen the compression nut on the steering column -- which can be a bear. It allows the column to shorten itself, which was only way I could get the rack to line up with the subframe mounting holes. Remember to tighten the big nut down as tight as you can, to keep the column from rattling.
3. I wasted 20 minutes trying to remove my original rack. It wouldn't pull off the column spline, even though the bolt was loose and I had hammered in a screwdriver to widen the clamp. Tip: Take that bolt all the way out, as it sets in a depression in the spline, keeping it from sliding free. Duh...
4. Used the e30 PS lines, with gentle bending. The banjo bolts are a tight fit, as the fluid ports are close to the motor mount (the opposite side from where the e30 rack ports are located. Weird.)
5. My e30 rack came complete with tie rods, off a complete car. I simply measured the length of both racks, tie rod to tie rod, and made the e36 match the e30. The e30 was about 3/4 inch wider, for those keeping score. Still, off to the alignment shop tomorrow.
6. All in all, no big surprises. Some steps just took longer. Degree of difficulty is enhanced by working on a garage floor and under the dash and behind the pedals. Need to work on my yoga.
7. My power steering pump still hums at idle. Might still be purging air out of the fluid. Any ideas?
8. The car feels way better -- tighter, more direct, quicker. If your rack is leaking, it is worth the trouble. Just find a lift. And work on your flexibility.
Thanks for all the help! Gary
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Swap Completed: Mission Accomplished
Okay, I did it. Quite a thrash --will take half the time next time. (Ha, like there's ever a next time...)
Swapped in a standard e36 rack, with help from this thread, into a 1991 318i with an airbag.
All the tips were pretty much correct.
My thoughts:
1. The position of the column through the firewall must vary a bit from car to car. Mine was up against the bottom corner of the firewall opening (with plate removed). I made a completely new plate AND augured out the firewall using a die-grinder and a carbide tip. Like knife through butter. The idea is to put the column in the CENTER of the round hole that the rubber boot slides into (per stock). This is the cleanest way and offers the best weather protection. Yes, it's a pain to make a new plate. But not as big a pain as getting the boot back in place. Sheesh, no way to really grab the sucker to pull it into position!
By the way, the RMEuropean pic with the firewall marked is what I had to do. Some cars you need to open up the firewall, others you don't.
2. You really need to loosen the compression nut on the steering column -- which can be a bear. It allows the column to shorten itself, which was only way I could get the rack to line up with the subframe mounting holes. Remember to tighten the big nut down as tight as you can, to keep the column from rattling.
3. I wasted 20 minutes trying to remove my original rack. It wouldn't pull off the column spline, even though the bolt was loose and I had hammered in a screwdriver to widen the clamp. Tip: Take that bolt all the way out, as it sets in a depression in the spline, keeping it from sliding free. Duh...
4. Used the e30 PS lines, with gentle bending. The banjo bolts are a tight fit, as the fluid ports are close to the motor mount (the opposite side from where the e30 rack ports are located. Weird.)
5. My e30 rack came complete with tie rods, off a complete car. I simply measured the length of both racks, tie rod to tie rod, and made the e36 match the e30. The e30 was about 3/4 inch wider, for those keeping score. Still, off to the alignment shop tomorrow.
6. All in all, no big surprises. Some steps just took longer. Degree of difficulty is enhanced by working on a garage floor and under the dash and behind the pedals. Need to work on my yoga.
7. My power steering pump still hums at idle. Might still be purging air out of the fluid. Any ideas?
8. The car feels way better -- tighter, more direct, quicker. If your rack is leaking, it is worth the trouble. Just find a lift. And work on your flexibility.
Thanks for all the help! Gary
Thanks for you write up. There's not many airbag conversion write ups, this winter I've be putting the Z3 rack on my 1990 325i and your thoughts will definitely help me.