M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: no1_jazz on June 04, 2008, 03:42:45 PM
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Rite guys we all obviously know that the S14 has it all the way stock in comparison to the m42 stock.
1. Now is it worth spending the money on the M42 just so it can compete or better yet piss on the s14??
2. How much would one have to spend to achieve this goal?
3. What modifications would need to be done? I.e. bigger cams, pistons, supercharger, turbo etc..
All help and advice is much appreciated
Many Thanks
Jazz
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If you can get an S14 it's probably cheaper straight up...
the major differences are: bore and stroke, individual throttle bodies, flywheel, and probably the cams.
If you factor in the cost of buying, and then rebuilding an S14, vs. an aggressive rebuild on an M42, the costs get a little closer.
I would try to find an E30 M3 in your area and see if you can take it for a spin.
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i'd say you have to spend quite a few monies to just have the m42 compete with the stock s14.
If yore after reliability, i'd go for the stock S14 (Yet expensive)
If yore after a tuning project i'd go for the M42, you probberly have the engine so you only need to get the parts and the job done.
A tuned S14 will drain your funds pretty fast.
I have them both, and i tell you the extra 0.5 liter makes a difference. But the S14 is not scary fast anyway. But on my usual backroad fast route the M3 can get you in trouble pretty quick. It gains speed at a considerably faster rate. So often i'm braking before bends i'm taking flat out in the is.
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You can build a M42 to perform as good as the S14 but the price tag is going to be insane (just look at how much MM rally engines cost).
IMHO, the most cost effective route is to go FI. A M62 supercharger will be enough for you to match the S14, not to mention a strong low end torque as well.
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Assuming your M42 is strong, the DA supercharger kit is about $3,500 and will turn out around 200hp with a few hours of work. It would be tough to buy and transplant an S14 for that and a stock S14 would have 10 less hp. Plus you could replace the M42 all day long for a few hundred bucks. S14s are expensive and rebuilds even more so. Way cool engines though.
To attempt to do it with a normally aspirated M42 would be a money pit and difficult. You could go to Metric Mechanics, but the S14 would be cheaper.
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320IS model for portuguese and italian market was basically a 318IS with 2.0L S14 engine.
Both 320IS and 318IS have suspension, brakes and all other undergarriage parts directly from 325I model.
320IS 2-door models had M-tech II body and BBS style BMW wheels as a standard. Also 4-door version was available without any spoilers; it also had 14" bottlecap wheels.
here's pictures of one italian (from South Tirol) example i almost bought last summer:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/olli951/320ISa1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/olli951/320isa2.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/olli951/320isa3.jpg)
Here's few 320IS examples for sale in Italy:
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=135776878
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=134654520
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=134839273
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=135596123
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=135813209
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go and have a look!!
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=135899799
its a m42 engine with ITB from a 320is... how did he do that!!??
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Hi guys I appreciate all the help and advice guys but I still don’t know what to do I love the IS but I don’t like the top end speed I’m getting out of her what can I do to get 20 - 30mph more out of here?
This is for sure a hard one its seems I loose both ways because buying a s14 will make and leave a massive hole in my bank and also doing up the IS will also do the same thing!!!!
Dammn guys are there any good six pots out there?
Appreciate all the help guys
Nice 1
Jazz
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drop the M42 and plug in a M/S50/52 US line motor.
Easy as that.
haha I wish..
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There are 2 ways to increase top speed: more power and better aerodynamics.
It's easier to add power by swapping the engine.
You can improve aero by lowering the car, removing sideview mirrors and windshield wiper arms (neither recommended for a car that sees street duty), using hood seals like those on the Evo 3 M3 and sealing any other "parting line" on the front silhouette, adding a flat tray to the underside of the car, etc.
But at the end of the day our cars are still bricks. The E30 M3 achieved a cd of .33, which is an improvement over the regular E30 cd of .35, but it's still a lot higher than today's cars.
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in this case, a s52 swap is quite possibly cheaper than s14.
s52 will be more reliable and get better gas milage swapped into an e30 as well
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why everybody wants only increase hp/torque?? biggest engine and as much more hp as possible, by 0.- investment? why not lowering the wheight by removing useless things? its easier and cheaper! and 10kg are +/- 1hp.. on my new street car i am planning 900kg.. -220kg= +/- 22hp
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if its top speed (eg, WOT in 5th gear) you want try a different diff... you can calculate the max speed of a different diff (say, a 3.73) here: http://www.f-body.org/gears/
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in this case, a s52 swap is quite possibly cheaper than s14.
s52 will be more reliable and get better gas milage swapped into an e30 as well
S52 may be more powerful but its definitely not as prestigious compared to the S14.
Afterall, the E30 M3 is one of the most successful racer BMW has ever build. Thus the S14 is pretty much a racing engine. Imagine revving at 8K RPM down the streets....Its going to be awesome.
Perhaps that is why the S14 still csot so much today despite being such an old engine. Seriously, I would love to have one in my car. Sadly, I can't afford it.... :(
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Guys so what shall I do I’m looking to achieve a really good handling car which is quick in every gear and that also has a reasonably high top end i.e. 140 - 150mph? I understand a lot of money is going to be involved to achieve this target of mine but I just don’t know which way to go the M42 way or the S14.
I guess it would be easy to start of with what I have already which is the M42 but then there is only so much I can get out of it……..and if I decide to go the S14 way ……. Well its hard to get hold of a good one these days and also will cost a lot.
How good is the S52 give me more information I mean why the S52 out of all other BMW engines? I believe it’s a 6-pot?
Appreciate all the help guys
Jazz
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my opinion, just build the m42, and go FI. im planning on spending about $4,000 -$4,500 on mine total (pistions/rods/turbo/exhaust mani/cams...
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The 24v is well documented swap.
From what I can gather off r3v, bf.c, and s14, the s14 is very high strung and requires heavy bills for a rebuild and overall maintenance.
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S14's should be left in M3's.
Show some respect!
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Guys so what shall I do I’m looking to achieve a really good handling car which is quick in every gear and that also has a reasonably high top end i.e. 140 - 150mph? I understand a lot of money is going to be involved to achieve this target of mine but I just don’t know which way to go the M42 way or the S14.
I guess it would be easy to start of with what I have already which is the M42 but then there is only so much I can get out of it……..and if I decide to go the S14 way ……. Well its hard to get hold of a good one these days and also will cost a lot.
How good is the S52 give me more information I mean why the S52 out of all other BMW engines? I believe it’s a 6-pot?
Appreciate all the help guys
Jazz
Yes, the S52 is a 6 potter. However, do take note that US and europe have different versions. If possible, look for a Euro S50B32. It has ITBs and double VANOS. It also puts out more power compared to the S52.
The only downside to this is that its going to cost quite a lot to ship an engine from Europe to US/Canada.
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IMHO, its still best to stick with the M42 and go FI. Rebuild the engine with forged parts and lower its compression. Then throw in a GT28-GT30 ball bearing turbo, piggy back, injectors and walbro pump.
You will be very happy with the power. You will have a car thats faster than a NA S14 or even S52 engine.
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IMHO, its still best to stick with the M42 and go FI. Rebuild the engine with forged parts and lower its compression. Then throw in a GT28-GT30 ball bearing turbo, piggy back, injectors and walbro pump.
You will be very happy with the power. You will have a car thats faster than a NA S14 or even S52 engine.
is there any pics of an m42 with this whole mods done to it and is there any step byt step modification pictures and any final preformance stats?
and a total price list by the way im from the UK
cheers J
azz
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On a circuit, a well setup turbo m42 will destroy an NA 6 pot.
If your looking for good bang for your buck, then turbo charge your m42 with a mid sized turbo.
For track use, a major priority is avoiding lag, so to do this
Use as small a turbocharger as you think you may need
Yes a T78 can boost up to ridiculus pressures, but you will never need them.
A good turbo is the gt25 35r.
Make your turbo plumbing as short as possible
The shorter the distance between the compressor and the port, the less air there is to stall in the pipes during on/off throttle situations.
Use an air to water intercooler
This type of intercooler is in a barrel full of water which is connected to a radiator and fan, this further decreases pressurized pipe length and hence lag.
It may not look as cool as an intercooler peeping out of your front bumper, but people wont be able to see it when they're behind you :):)
make your pressure pipes as skinny as possible
This will reduce lag by reducing the amount of air in the pipes and also pressure drop due to a smaller surface area of air touching the side walls (laminar flow)
Large diameter pipes are only needed on huge turbos, where volume becomes more important than velocity.
Fit a recirculating dump valve
Its basic physics. If your turbo has compressed the air for you, it is a complete waste venting it to the atmosphere, so save your turbo the effort by plumbing your dump valve back to your intake (pre turbo)
Hope that helps a little :)
There is no point comparing the m42/4 and the s14 because they are very different engines.
The s14 is a homologation special with high compression, itbs and a lumpy camshaft.
Whereas the m42 is a much milder 4 cylinder with reasonably high compression, very economically minded cams and an intake manifold designed for daily driving.
I believe that the m42/4 is extremely strangled from the factory so as not to compete against the higher cost 6 pot engined cars, but with enough work (as proven by the s42) it can be as good, if not better than the s14.
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S52 may be more powerful but its definitely not as prestigious compared to the S14.
Afterall, the E30 M3 is one of the most successful racer BMW has ever build. Thus the S14 is pretty much a racing engine. Imagine revving at 8K RPM down the streets....Its going to be awesome.
Perhaps that is why the S14 still csot so much today despite being such an old engine. Seriously, I would love to have one in my car. Sadly, I can't afford it.... :(
you can repeat this kinda bench racer data over and over again, but have you ever driven them side to side? or owned them?
I speak from an owners perspective.
S14 is expensive bc its OLD and rare.
in reliability, S52>S14
in power and performance of the powerplant S52>S14
if you had a E30 M3 and wanted to do somethign crazy to it, S52 swap would be a good value option.
Not everyone has the money for a 2.5L s14 evo2 build up, but the same performance can be stuffed in a 318is inexpensively with a newer M3 motor. how can that be bad?
If you really wanted a S14, you'd buy the car with it.
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you can repeat this kinda bench racer data over and over again, but have you ever driven them side to side? or owned them?
I speak from an owners perspective.
S14 is expensive bc its OLD and rare.
in reliability, S52>S14
in power and performance of the powerplant S52>S14
if you had a E30 M3 and wanted to do somethign crazy to it, S52 swap would be a good value option.
Not everyone has the money for a 2.5L s14 evo2 build up, but the same performance can be stuffed in a 318is inexpensively with a newer M3 motor. how can that be bad?
If you really wanted a S14, you'd buy the car with it.
I have never driven the S14 nor S52. But I did have experience with M50 motors. I do agree with you that S52 is a good swap and thats what I wanted to do originally with my car. Remove the M42 and throw in a S50/52. If not, even a M50B25 is a good choice. Now, I decide that going FI with a M42 is a better choice.
As I have mentioned earilier, my shoice of S14 over the S52 is a matter of prestige rather than technical.
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for sure. prestige of a EVO 2.5 S14 is second to none for production, if your bankroll is deep there are plenty of buildups akin to a toyota 4ag 1600cc 16v, those will pull ~ 280 ps ~ 13,000+ rpm in open wheel cars with qualifying race maps
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for sure. prestige of a EVO 2.5 S14 is second to none for production, if your bankroll is deep there are plenty of buildups akin to a toyota 4ag 1600cc 16v, those will pull ~ 280 ps ~ 13,000+ rpm in open wheel cars with qualifying race maps
Um, can you provide some valid proof regarding a race built up 4ag motor capable of that, that would be as reliable and cost effective as an s14 motor?
I'm just laughing at that statement in this thread about m42 v s14.
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IF YOU READ, you would understand what i am saying.
4ag 1600cc toyota engines are used in FORMULA ATLANTIC open wheel cars. only for real racing use are they tuned to that kind of level, and of course - if you have to ask how much $$,$$$ - then you cannot afford one :P
i definately cannot afford a 280hp 1600cc 4A, but they are readily avail for those with deep deep pockets, even for street use.
a nice built street EVO 2.5 S14 should run close to 10K brand new. a 280hp 13,000 rpm 4AG race motor will be pretty similar in price.
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IF YOU READ, you would understand what i am saying.
4ag 1600cc toyota engines are used in FORMULA ATLANTIC open wheel cars. only for real racing use are they tuned to that kind of level, and of course - if you have to ask how much $$,$$$ - then you cannot afford one :P
i definately cannot afford a 280hp 1600cc 4A, but they are readily avail for those with deep deep pockets, even for street use.
a nice built street EVO 2.5 S14 should run close to 10K brand new. a 280hp 13,000 rpm 4AG race motor will be pretty similar in price.
The only street used Formula Atlantic car that I'm aware of is, Akira Lida's and he has his revlimited to 9k-10k. A race motor like that, is no where from streetable. Idling at like 3k, making zero torque down low for driving around, unless at a track. My point was, why are you suggesting a race motor for a street car? He's already pointed to wanting an S14 for its prestige, and would be probably against throwing a non-bmw motor in the car.
It would be very cool, but if I had those motors in my 318is, its mileage would only be to&from the trailer and on the track. What's the life of the Form Atlantic before a rebuild? 5-10k miles?
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its not sugested for street use or bmw use at all.
a evo 2.5 s14 is prepped for na power similar to a built 4a (which is a comparison only)
read often?
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...comparing apples with bananas?
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An S14 swap would be difficult on our cars, wouldn't it?
Or is it a straight swap?
Seems like it would be difficult because the M3's have that "early E30" design, don't they? Cap + rotor instead of coils, etc.
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If it's top speed performance you're after, sell the E30 and buy a E36! You've got then pleanty of options to make 150mph easily.
The E30 appeal is much more than straight line performance and top speed marks!
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The E30 appeal is much more than straight line performance and top speed marks!
any bmw appeal is about more than striaght line performance, if you want to go fast in a straight line go buy a riced out honda.....
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If you want top speed get a 24v 6 pot dropped in and change your final drive ratio. But lets face it, any idiot can loose their licence driving at stupid speeds in a straight line...
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(http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f172/73482d1202794780-fast-car-vs-fast-driver-new-decal-design-possibly-shirt-if-interest-fast-driver.jpg)
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exacly boyracer.
99% of people that buy bmw today buy them only for image, not for performance, or RWD or engine technology. Many of them don't know when change gears... someone here drive in third at 5800revs cruising...
someone buy them and don't do maintenance, and then they claim that bmw are poor.
Personally I didn't buy it for image. I liked it a lot and even if I can change it for newer cars, there isn't on the market what I need, at the right price.
A lot of people here claims to go fast on the road... but if you see who they are, some of the destroied a lot of cars in turns because they don't know the limits in turns, and go right over instead of going progressive.
It's easy to floor the pedal in straight, but that's not an ability. Maybe it's true that those that drive only in highways can't do other... but here no highways and all turns :D
I like a lot more lateral G than straight MPH... but this is me.
back on topic:
you can swap a 6cyl very easily, can find them used for really low money usually when the seller don't offer shipping.
You will have the great engine sound, the low-mid torque, all OEM pieces for maintenance (no $$$ custom parts in the engine) and a solid base with a lot of options if you'll want to turbo or s/c it next.
Every time I heard a M3 E30 with an airbox, I fight myself because I'm going turbo and can't have that sound. but if I would go N/A there will be more money to put in there and it will be a little problematic to pass MOT here (every 2 years) and DD it. With a low boost turbo if I don't pass MOT I can simply unbolt it, change ECU map, replace one or two things and I can go to the MOT. And then, here law don't permit to swap a bigger engine. Otherwise I would have a S50B30 with ITBs :D
drive safe ;)
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An S50 US or S52 is a pretty pointless engine swap in my opinion with only 240bhp or so.
For the hassle and cost if getting one if them, you could probably have an M42 with not much much less power.
Of course a proper S50 or even M52 is a much better proposition :)
Comparing an M42 to an S14 is a waste of time to however as the S14 will always be better.
Yes you could have an M42 with 300bhp NA or maybe 500-600 with a turbo but a built S14 could see you 400 and upto 800.
If you have an M42, its more oat effective to build that to 180-220bhp alright though since an S14 can coat upto 3K just to buy alone without any work.
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Just some more points to add. You can do the S50 etc swap and that would be very expensive. Remember that you have another 2 cyl's to contend with so that will put you inline with building a semi-tame S14. On the S50 US version, if you swap HFM, inj's and chip you're already at 275HP. Add cams and change the chip now you're pushing 295-300HP. There is no replacement for displacement. You will always have more torque in the 6cyl. This however will cost you $$$ on top of what you had already paid for the motor.
Stock 2.3L S14 is a tamed down version of the race motor with only 10.5:1 compression and 192HP US. Others had 200HP and special editions had 215HP but without cats. The Evo II version was a 11:1 compression 220HP motor with more bells and whistles like a cam and cam gear, different ITB's. The Sport Evo which is the Evo III had ONLY 10.2:1 compression and 238HP but was a 2.5L and had even more bells and whistles. Sodium filled exhaust valves, 48mm ITB's vs all the 46mm variations, bigger AFM, inj's, and the list goes on.....
The S14 is another breed ($$$) which is getting more difficult to get parts for. Some are now NLA through the dealer. I'm in the process of building my 2.5L S14 for next season. Example: You shouldn't use the stock S14 oil pump but rather the Evo III oil pump with an extra spring for better pressure.....Well there goes another $253 for a replacement pump that only had a few thousand miles on it. BUT that is what you do when build a track/race motor. It gets pricey! Oh and I have the DTM airbox on my S14 and it sounds awesome. I could probably have some made for the M42 but again we are now talking $$$. My box was about $1,500 US but IT DOES make more power than the stock plenum because they have tuned runners.
Everything you put on a motor when you build it has to work together. The whole motor has to be thought out before you even start.
You can make the NA M42 have 300+HP but at what cost right? That is a full blown race motor. Turbo is a different ball game. The S14... well I ran my 2.5L with lots of bells and whistles and had about 280HP at the crank but it also only weighs 2400 lbs so it feels super quick and from what others tell me, it is. I'm building the motor to hopefully reach over the 300HP mark which will be an achievement. What people don't realize is that when you start with a 192HP stock S14 and want to get 400HP its not that easy unless you have an open checkbook or a money tree. You can get there but it will cost you $30,000+ to achieve it. And at that level of a build you'll have to start rebuilding at 25 HOURS of track time!! That's right 25 hours not thousands of miles. The same goes for the M42 but not as bad in the $$$ department.
When I was in Thailand I met the GUY that was building the motors for Ravaglia back in the mid to late 80's and early 90's for Schnitzner!! Awesome dude...... He said 400HP no problem. That is the cream of the crop for HP but again....at what cost not only to build but to maintain:-) He just had DTM motors lying around the shop!! They let him take everything when their reign was over back then.
It all comes down to $$$ and what you want. I'm also finishing my M42 Stroker with ITB's, Megasquirt, custom cams, ported head, E30M3 exhaust etc.....as my daily driver. I wanted to see what everyone else was talking about when it came to making HP in a little M42 motor. Yeah.... there is some other trick stuff like 33mm lifters instead of the 35mm ones to lighten the valve train without going shim under bucket etc.... I'm shooting for 220HP at the crank with all the goodies. This is just going by my experience from S14 and S50 motors that I have tuned. Who knows....it might just be a little more or even a little less but in the end I know that I have a motor that I built and tuned that is an awesome little 4 bangar and will keep up with most other 6's and a lot of fun to drive!!
In the end... everyone will do what they want because they are the ones spending the $$$. Have fun with all the variations of builds and hopefully learn something from whichever direction you decide to take.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Stroke your m42!
There was a build thread on it, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
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I will be writing up my build shortly, but if you want to make your eyes water then read Gizmo's. I think he was the first to do it. I added a link so everyone could see the evolution of his car.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-433471.html
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=556798
Cheers,
~Ralph
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That's the one I was looking for, thanks man!
I need to get this going soon, my M44 is a little on the slow side.
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http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/cto/1946525337.html
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fuck it just do what i did ;) lol
better yet do what im about to do S54 ;)
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My M42 whores out E36M3's unless i'm granny shifting and not double clutching..... E30M3's are no problem.
Seriously though, it took some cash to get my M42 this way. It's cheaper to mod the M42, but the parts are more scarce. So you have to be smart and resourceful. But an S14 is exactly that, an S14!