M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: peerless on June 02, 2008, 10:53:43 AM
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Hello all,
Just finished totally rebuilding a M42 engine and have a question regarding a rather loud whining noise from the chain assembly. If the chain wasn't so loud I would consider this normal. While I still don't consider this to be totally a bad thing, it is rather concerning considering the amount of work and money put into this engine.
My personal thought on this noise is that it is caused by the new style tensioner which is a M44 tensioner. The reasoning for this line of thought is due to the fact that the M44 tensioner is about 1/8" longer then the original tensioner. This would place more pressure on the chain assembly. I have done timing belts that are setup tight initially and they have had a 'Supercharger' type whine that goes away in about a month or two of operation. So I am assuming this chain whining noise to be a similar circumstance.
This is my first M42 engine rebuild so I have no reference to go by.
Is there any shops that you guys know of I can forward my information to to get further information? How many of you have had a similar problem and what was your resolution/outcome?
I did talk to Teddy Rowe at Metric Mechanic and he has heard similar noise but never as loud as ours is. He only showed mild concern.
Every timing component has been replaced at a cost of about $610. This includes every guide rail, sprockets, idler gear, chain, tensioner, etc.
The engine itself has excellent oil pressure as we installed a gauge in the car to make damn sure. It runs excellent, wrapped it up to 7k rpm and ripped the tires loose on the 2nd gear shift. So I really don't think there is any major problems, just a very loud chain. Also we have had it running with no belts so its not any of the accessories. (Alt, A/C, PS)
Here is a picture of the chain setup during assembly:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/M42timing.jpg)
And here is a video where you can clearly hear the chain whining. Any feedback is appreciated.
1rst one with open headers, you can still hear the chain whine over the exhaust.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/th_DSCN0301.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/?action=view¤t=DSCN0301.flv)
And here is one after the exhaust has been fixed and the chain is really loud.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/th_DSCN0305.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/?action=view¤t=DSCN0305.flv)
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So no one has replaced their timing chain or rebuilt their engine?
No comments?
Interesting. :confused:
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..its definitely too much pressure on the chainguide comming from the chain tensioner!i had the same problem..
it started with a rattling ot the chain, then i took another chain-tensioner out of one of my 4 engines and put it in. after that the noise was exactly like your engine sounds! this tensioner was about 2mm longer..!
the problem i have .. i have 4 different chain-tensioner comming out of 4 "identically" engines?!
no i solved the problem with swapping around the chain-tensioner... on my new engine i am gonna replace all the sprockets, rails and the chain. we will see which chain-tensioner fits..:)
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Hi guys, I have got the same timing chain whine coming from my engine. I replaced everything in the timing system as peerless did except for the timing chain tensioner piston.
I changed my tensioner piston one month previously thinking this would solve my rattling chain issue. I then changed all the guides, sprockets and chain. I reused my M44 tensioner. One thing that did concern me was the fact that I couldn't get the tensioner piston to compress in the vice. It would not click so I just installed the tensioner piston uncompressed.
So swiss318is, your saying that turning the piston around and installing it will cure the whine. That's interesting. Are you 100% sure?
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..now i solved the problem with swapping around the chain-tensioner...
i mean i took 4 chain-tensioners from 4 engines and tried one by one!!sorry :)
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Kinda makes me wish I hadn't thrown the original one away.
Nick writes:
One thing that did concern me was the fact that I couldn't get the tensioner piston to compress in the vice. It would not click so I just installed the tensioner piston uncompressed.
Maybe its in the installation that causing the problem. I read that you are supposed to install the tensioner 'uncompressed' and then release it by prying back on the chain guide and letting it release.
If we are releasing it before installing, maybe it is extending and then not compressing once installed. Looks like I may have to pull the valve cover, install the piston uncompressed, and then release it once its installed. But this procedure is only for the M42 style tensioner that is no longer available to my knowledge.
When I review the manual it say the early style tensioner should be compressed until it 'clicks' in the compressed position. After installation, push against the chain guide to release. It also states that the later M44 can be retrofitted, and from my understanding this is the only one available any more. After we 'uncompressed' the M44 tensioner, I was unable to even get it to budge, so I installed it 'uncompressed'. I just recieved another one today, but I might try to 're-compress' the one installed now and try to reinstall it and see what happens.
I will post my results here later today to let you know.
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I believe the problem is that the tensioner has extended the full length of its travel.
Therefore, the tensioner must be reset to the beginning of its travel.
Page 11-42/4 of the factory repair manual explains this procedure. You can navigate to the document here:
http://ee1394.com/bmw/docs/factory/repair/en/index1.htm
The tensioner is designed to grow in length over time. Sometimes it can accidentally come undone so that it extends to its full length, which can cause the tensioner rail and chain to be damaged. You need to reset the length every time you remove the tensioner cap, and during initial installation if it has come undone.
The M42 tensioner automatically adjusts after being run at 3500rpm for about 20 seconds.
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Hello again,
Well I removed the tensioner and it was extended to its full length. I compressed it in the vise 4x to get all the oil out, which wasn't much. The part I don't understand is that it simply comes back out under spring pressure. I compressed it again by hand and it simply comes back out again.
I got it to stick in about half way after fiddling with it for a bit and stuck it back in the engine. I fired it up and got a brief chain rattle that went way in about 1 sec. I let it idle for a bit and then brought the rpms up to 3000 and held it there for about 20 seconds as Colin recommended.
It did seem a bit quieter, thank you. But...I went for a little drive up and down the street and the noise came back? I have no idea at this point.
Also Colin the tensioner details are on 11-14/42.6 and only in regards to the original M42 tensioner which has been superseded to the M44 tensioner and is no longer relevant.
To be honest I am a bit annoyed at this problem and find it hard to believe that something like a chain tensioner can be such a pain in the ass.
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Thats interesting info peerless, cause when I recieved the tensioner from new it was already in the compressed position and then when I had to change the chain a month later, it just would not compress at all.
Also how is possible to push the tensioner rail back against the piston if the timing covers are in the way?
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Also how is possible to push the tensioner rail back against the piston if the timing covers are in the way?
This is for the M42 tensioner.
I believe you have to remove the upper timing cover. Or get lucky with a long skinny screwdriver.
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Just remove the valve cover and a long skinny screwdriver will work. But again thats on a M42 style tensioner which is NLA.
As a side note:
On the M10's and M30s you actually have to work it back and forth until it pumps up.
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Has anyone else experienced this whining noise from the chain?
Also why doesn't the M44 tensioner want to compress?
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We replaced the tensioner w/ another M44 tensioner and all is well. Install the new tensioner in its compressed state. It will rattle for a second or two and then the noise goes away.
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We replaced the tensioner w/ another M44 tensioner and all is well. Install the new tensioner in its compressed state. It will rattle for a second or two and then the noise goes away.
so you installed a new m44 tensioner fully compressed and now the noise is gone?
and all you did was start up the motor to get it to extend?
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so you installed a new m44 tensioner fully compressed and now the noise is gone?
and all you did was start up the motor to get it to extend?
Correct.
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So colin86325, if I remove my M44 tensioner, compress it in the vice a couple of times so that oil comes out, then compress it again and install it back in, the whining noise should subside?
Another question, why isn't tensioner piston staying compressed?
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I cannot guarantee that it will solve your problem, but it's worth trying.
When you compress the M44 tensioner, make sure you don't compress it beyond the circlip. It should stay locked, I'm not sure why yours doesn't.
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im glad you figured it out, i was going to suggest a new tensioner, i had the same prob. on my rebuild, but i had problems with the M42 tensioner.
......just as a note to anyone who changes their tensioners: you can turn the engine over by hand a few cycles to avoid the noisy startup.
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So colin, just to clarify, you basically took yours out of the box, still in the 'transport' position and installed it as such? I'm having this problem, and DAMN is it annoying... mine also has 2 circlips, one at the top where the head makes contact to the tensioning rail, and one in the middle.. when I installed mine, I hit it on something hard to unspring it, and recompressed it in a vise until it clicked,, it decompressed back down to that middle snap ring, thus I thought that's what the manual meant.. the upper ring stayed exposed, the middle one was now in the body of the tensioner.. I thought I was following the instructions to a 'T' but apparently something is horribly wrong lol
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I'm not quitte sure but i recall when fiddeling around with one of my old tensioners, i got it back into the locked (factory) position, by compressing and then rotating the piston.
not sure whether this was an old or new style piston.
now a little off-topic but does anyone have that tractor-like chain noise on the first 1-2 seconds of start-up. in mine it sounds like the tensioner looses it's pressure during the night. leave the car for a few hours;it sounds fine. leave it overnight and it sounds like one of those old mercedes diesels.
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Hopefully this is not redundant. I just want to provide additional input as a new member and obtain some advice. I recently experienced the engine dieseling noise associated with the timing chain. I replaced the tensioner to see if it would be a quick fix but the noise was still there. I then went ahead and replaced the timing chain/sprockets/guides/water pump/thermostat while reusing the newer tensioner. I decided to follow the advice on: http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318istimingchain.html
“Install the chain tensioner. If you are reinstalling the old one, you may need to compress it in a bench vice (it should click) before reinstalling it - but you may be able to compress and turn it at the same time with a ratchet and socket (I did!).”
It sounded like a good idea so I verified the tensioner could compress without binding and reinstalled it by compressing it and engaging the mounting plug threads. From the open timing case, the tensioner appeared to engage the chain guide and provide good compression. After completing the install and restarting, I also noticed a new engine whine which would change pitch with engine rpm. From reading the thread above, it appears that reinstalling the tension in the compressed stage (using the reference factory repair instructions) and restarting the engine to re-engage the tension should correct the issue. Is it possible for the people who tried this to re-confirm this idea? Thanks in advance.
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I have ordered a new tensioner piston, I will let you know if it fixes the noise. (Should get to me in about 1 week)
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I wanted to check with the forum on this topic.
nicknikolovski - Did you receive your new tensioner? If so, the new tensioner reduce the whine noise or is it still present?
peerless - Does your engine have the noise as originally posted above? Were you able to isolate it or find the root cause?
Could the noise be coming from an accessory such as a new water pump or a newly adjusted pulley tensioner? I tried to listen around with a mechanic's stethoscope but I don't have the experience to pin point where the whine is coming from. Are there any auto mechanics on the forum who have performed timing chain maintenance and might be able to provide feedback? Thanks.
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Hi inx750, yes I have recieved the tensioner piston. I installed it today, started the engine, held the revs at about 3,000 rpm for 15 seconds and allowed the engine to idle. I gave it a few revs and listened to the engine. It went back to normal. The old BMW M42 engine noise was back. :) While going for a road test, I listened to the engine particulary in the 2-3000 RPM range where the whine would be the loudest. The whine pitch had dropped dramatically. I could now here more general engine noise over the whine compared to the other way around. So for me, the whine noise has dropped in loudness.
Update (8th September) - Drove the car today - the whine loudness is back - it has pissed me off in the past but I think I've learned to accept it now. I still can't figure out why it whines like that. So I think the tensioner is not the problem. I am not sure where to go from here. So folks but no success.
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Nicknikolovski - Thanks for the update. I recently inspect my newer M44 tensioner. I followed the Bentley manual directions to compress it multiple times to remove the oil before installation. It was reinstall with no luck reducing the noise.
It would be interesting to open up the timing case and visual inspect the new parts to see if there are any signs of wear (causing the whining noise). I am not to that point yet.
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Hello Nicknikolovski - Does your engine still exhibit the whine noise related to engine rpm? I saw your posting on the Pelican forum. I tried adjusting the accessory belts to see if it improved the situation with no luck. Thanks.
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Yes the whine is still there. I experience the whine below 4,000RPM.
Could the whine be associated with the design of the new components?
Has anyone sourced information on this issue from BMW?
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I'm having the same whine after a fresh rebuild. I reused a known good tensioner and installed it uncompressed. I may try a few spares until I hear of a permanent fix.
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inx750, did you try turning the tensioner around with the small side facing out and the larger side facing in? Another person mentioned this earlier in this thread but I wasn't so sure that would work.
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just to not start another topic only for this...
I removed the remus exhaust that I had and now that I have stock one I can heard a whine coming from engine only with high load and mid revs, like 4000... can be related to the chain drive? (mine is a m44 engine)
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Yeah but does it sound like the whine in the video that peerless posted in this thread?
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Just watched the motorweek test drive of the 318is that tjts posted,, listen to the under the hood engine rev,, that damn whine is there!!!! So they came from the dealer with this whine?? I've tried 3 tensioners and now have given up myself... no problems after 1000 miles with a fresh timing chain assy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRgKisbQ87U
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Nicknikolovski - I don't believe switching the tensioner orientation would effect the spring rate or its interface with the chain guide. My situation has not changed since the initial posting. I also used a mechanic's stethoscope and did not find the alternator or a/c compressor to be the source of the noise. It still appears to be coming from the front of the engine near the valve cover/timing case. I will have to wait longer and monitor the noise level. As an additional thought, could there be problem if the crank bolt was not torqued correctly (over or under)? Or could the sprocket teeth be wearing in or could the timing components (guides etc.) be misaligned?
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I think it is related to the re-design of the components. I've had the new chain assembly running for about 1500-2000km. I am using 10W/40 Mobil Synth S oil. No sign of bad performance, just damn annoying is that whine. I changed my crankshaft bolt when I did my chain as the bolt is a stretch design bolt. I don't think it would contribute to it. I believe it could be the camshaft sprockets - possibly a wearing in noise. Its got alot of people stumped.
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I installed a new Febi-Bilstein "Chain Tightener" a few days ago...fresh out of the box compressed/transport mode...whatever.
P/N 11311743187
or
No. 08688
Terrible racket for about 5 seconds while I kept the revs up and runs smooth as silk now. Been driving it for a few days no whine!
I am running Mobil 1 15w-50 oil.
I'm having the same whine after a fresh rebuild. I reused a known good tensioner and installed it uncompressed. I may try a few spares until I hear of a permanent fix.
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I installed a brand new tensioner as posted earlier, the whine did not subside for me. This is pissing me off.
txleadfoot - can you please post a video (if possible) so we can hear your engine?
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Hi guys, nothing has been added to this thread for a while so I thought I would give you all an update. I recently re-sealed my timing covers and of course had the chance to view my new timing chain assembly after having driven with it for 5,000 KM with no problems except for the annoying whine that I've got used now.
Anyways, I inspected my timing chain - all ok, guides - ok, sprockets -ok.
No visible sign of misalignment of anything rubbing.
I am however stumped about one thing, that is when turning the engine over by hand, I placed in the flywheel pin and felt it lock in. Checked it was locked in - ok. I noticed that at crank TDC, my camshaft lobes on cyl 1 were pointing down and not towards each other. However camshaft lobes on cyl 4 were pointing towards each other. How is the engine running perfectly normal?
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You must have locked it at TDC #4....ie #1 is on the exhaust stroke not the compression stroke. The camshafts rotate at half the rpm of the crank. if you rotate the crank 1 turn and relock it will be at tdc #1 the cams should be in the right orientation.
i think thats right...if not basically you locked it in the wrong spot, keep rotating :)
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i installed my tensioner decompressed?
i thought that was the way you were supposed to do it?
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Just watched the motorweek test drive of the 318is that tjts posted,, listen to the under the hood engine rev,, that damn whine is there!!!! So they came from the dealer with this whine?? I've tried 3 tensioners and now have given up myself... no problems after 1000 miles with a fresh timing chain assy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRgKisbQ87U
I was going to post this video but you beat me to it! It seems that the whine you hear is completely normal. Personally, i love the noise :)
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I agree, the noise I hear in the MW 1990 BMW 318 Youtube video noted there is normal, my engine has the same whine. The chain drive is famous for being noisy, at the same time, when my car had 124k on the ticker it needed a tensioner. The noise then was different and only heard over 4k rpm. (4300-4600 range as I recall)
I now have 266k on the motor, its on its second tensioner.
Just my experience :)