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DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: elementskater_xx on May 10, 2008, 06:27:35 PM

Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 10, 2008, 06:27:35 PM
Ok so i finaly got my head back after $615 to do the valves. I get it allback togethor and it runs, not the best running issues. There was white smoke pouring out of my exhaust. I let it heat up and the smoke dissapeared. I then tried to restart it. Nothing it sputter starts never get over 1,000 rpms and dies out. I did check engine light test and this is what i get.  1263 Purge Valve This code is stored if there is a break or short-circuit at:
Evaporative control valve, wire from the DME control unit or
the output stage of the DME control unit is defective (M1.3
only). I did a compression test and got nothing in piston 1 and 2 got 60 psi in 3 and nothing in 4. I did a compression check in all 4 cylenders before i fired it up and it was fine. Plus my car shook like crazy when i first started it but it died down. Any suggestions?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Cobra Jet on May 10, 2008, 10:27:27 PM
is it timed correctly?  Meaning, when you reinstalled the head, did you make sure to correctly position the timing sprockets, cams, etc?

Did you also drain out all of the old oil & coolant and put new oil & coolant back into the engine?

Did you install all new gaskets?

Did you ever check to make sure the engine deck (top of block) was 100% square and was not warped prior to reinstalling the head?

white smoke, sounds like coolant blowing out the tailpipe...
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 11, 2008, 11:04:23 AM
Yeah i checked everything. It started right up this morning and got warm and then died at normal operating temp. I keep getting that code 1263. I am going to mess with the o2 sensor and a couple other things today.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: hoevesruperd on May 11, 2008, 04:44:06 PM
the o2 sensor wont solve your problem thats for sure.
white smoke is a bad sign but it could be only that some water was evaporating from the exhaust. since your car has been sitting for a little while. right?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 11, 2008, 05:21:48 PM
Yeah antifreeze leaked into my head a little on the dismantle. Man i have done everything to get this thing running nothing is working. I am just probably going to have the bmw dealer come get it and take a look at it.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on May 11, 2008, 05:54:38 PM
.....
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on May 11, 2008, 05:58:21 PM
Drop the tools and step away from the car.

Quote
There was white smoke pouring out of my exhaust.

Quote
Plus my car shook like crazy when i first started it but it died down.

Quote
I did a compression test and got nothing in piston 1 and 2 got 60 psi in 3 and nothing in 4.

Sounds like coolant in the cylinders (white smoke, shaking crazy) and you bent your rods (no compression)

If you read the Bentley Service Manual, followed directions and put it together clean and correctly none of the above would have happened. What a waste of time and money, shame.
Its done. No compression is no compression.

Your going to get ass raped at the dealer, you know that right?

Might as well cut your loses and just sell the car at this point.

"If a job is worth doing, its worth doing right the first time"
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 11, 2008, 07:05:08 PM
Ok well i am going to pull the head and re-do it. I am using a haynes manual. Where can i get a bently manual?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 11, 2008, 07:15:28 PM
Plus would i get a fault code of 1222?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: RED IS 91 on May 11, 2008, 07:29:55 PM
Man ,that's a little harsh !!
true but harsh.

Quote from: peerless;49100
Drop the tools and step away from the car.







Sounds like coolant in the cylinders (white smoke, shaking crazy) and you bent your rods (no compression)

If you read the Bentley Service Manual, followed directions and put it together clean and correctly none of the above would have happened. What a waste of time and money, shame.
Its done. No compression is no compression.

Your going to get ass raped at the dealer, you know that right?

Might as well cut your loses and just sell the car at this point.

"If a job is worth doing, its worth doing right the first time"
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: RED IS 91 on May 11, 2008, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: elementskater_xx;49104
Ok well i am going to pull the head and re-do it. I am using a haynes manual. Where can i get a bently manual?


if you can't figure it out then get it to an independent shop or someone that is seasoned at these cars .
good luck
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 11, 2008, 08:14:33 PM
It seems like alot of people here are harsh. But it's cool i am used to it i am in the army. I am going to rip it apart and start over. If at first you fail try again... and again.. and again. One thing i forgot to mentio is tht they plained my head should i get a thicker gasket? Maybe my gasket is 2 thin?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: colin86325 on May 11, 2008, 08:41:04 PM
Well, you have a good attitude.  I can respect that.  Lessons learned--follow instructions and double-check your work?

How much did they mill your head?  More than likely not enough to warrant the thicker stock gasket.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on May 11, 2008, 09:35:41 PM
Quote from: elementskater_xx;49111
It seems like alot of people here are harsh. But it's cool i am used to it i am in the army. I am going to rip it apart and start over. If at first you fail try again... and again.. and again. One thing i forgot to mentio is tht they plained my head should i get a thicker gasket? Maybe my gasket is 2 thin?

That is a good attitude. I was a little harsh and I apologize.

I am assuming your fairly new to in-depth engine repairs. Too be honest the M42 is a pretty complex and technical engine. Certainly not the first engine I would want to learn on.

Cleanliness is critical to proper engine assembly.

When you get your cylinder head off, clean the surface and take a detailed picture. Its possible they took too much material off the head and the front profile gasket maybe keeping the head from completely seating on the block. I believe the max amount of material that can be safely taken off the head is .015". Also its very important to have the front chain cover bolted to the front of the head as it needs to be surfaced with the head.

Post back when you get it apart and hope the second time around goes better for you.

Also where are you located?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on May 12, 2008, 12:11:07 AM
Post pics man. Post pics of each step if you can.
Hope it's a matter of timing a little off. Don't want to make any predictions on it though. You've done the work before, it'll be easy this time. I really hope it isn't catastrophic.
I've got more valves I'll take out of the spare head if you need them, just let me know.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 12, 2008, 03:57:02 PM
Ok so i bent up 3 exhaust valves. It's back in the shop. Only $150 this time. But i also think i need some new pistons. I should just do a complete rebuild. I will keep everyone updated as i go along. I live in ct by the way.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on May 12, 2008, 04:17:50 PM
Pistons are pretty strong. I am sure it left some minor ding marks, but you should be able to clean the tops off and be good to go.

So I take it you got your timing off?

My question is how you had good compression when you started and lost compression afterwards?

The chain shouldn't slip and if you had good compression then it should have stayed that way. Sounds like you had the cam out of time from the beginning?

Well good luck with it. I just got back from the machine shop and the head I am having done for a customer has all 8 exhaust valves bent.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 12, 2008, 05:49:53 PM
Yeah when the guy gave me the head back he said thatthe timming was all set. I should of checked it tho. The cams were off by quit a bit. It looked fine when i put it back togethor. I have some markes in my pistons. Not like the ones that are supposed to be there. But more it's like they hit right outside of the old grooves and made some new marks. I will try and get a pic up for ya. Ths problem strted when my chain broke and i bent a total of ten valves. Thanks to nomad tho i got a great hook up on some valves.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Cobra Jet on May 12, 2008, 05:55:00 PM
Man, if you bent valves again, something is not right w/ the timing of the cams, etc...  You really need to have those timed correctly, otherwise you're going to keep having an issue and we'd hate to see you having to constantly go through $$$$$$....

Make sure you:

drain ALL of the oil that is currently in that engine - you don't want oil/coolant contamination

drain ALL of the coolant and replace w/ new

be sure there is NO coolant left in the cylinders


locate the online Bentley Manual (or other BMW manuals) and follow those engine rebuild instructions.  

Like others have said, these engines are not just plug-n-play, you really need to read up on how to get the cams timed, how to get everything aligned nearly perfectly before starting the car - especially after doing a major head replacement.  If those cams or sprockets are not timed correctly, you're going to mash valves again.

These engines are known as "interference engines" - meaning that if a timing chain breaks or the timing is not 100% correctly timed as stated in the manuals - the possibility of mashing valves into the pistons is extremely great...
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on May 12, 2008, 06:01:54 PM
wow, that sucks man!
FYI - there is no way the machine shop can "set the timing" for you when they give the head back to you. The timing is 100% set at the time of installing the timing chain and making sure everything is in the right position.

Check that the cams are in the right carriers! One cam has an E on it and that DOES NOT mean exhaust. The "A" is for Auspuf which is exhaust.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Cobra Jet on May 12, 2008, 06:34:18 PM
http://ee1394.com/bmw/docs/factory/repair/index1.htm

this may help
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 13, 2008, 06:57:22 AM
Ok so i looked at my pistons and my timming was def off. I have stamp markings in my pistons. They are off from the original ones. Like right next to it. I am probably picking up a new block within the next week. But i am not sure. Anything I can do to maybe resurface my pistons without taking my engine out of my car?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: RED IS 91 on May 13, 2008, 09:57:39 AM
I can tell be reading this that you are in way over your head ( i mean the head on your shoulders not the one in the car) .
You need someone that knows these motors to either help you or do it for you before you ruin more stuff or go broke.

D'Agostino Brothers
Joe D'Agostino
Stamford, CT
203.324.3966


Sports Car Restoration
33 Norton St, Southington, CT
860-621-2002

I found these two by googling . Maybe you can search the yellow pages or call the people above and they can recommend someone.
You need special tools to set the timing on these cars .I am surprised that there are no members from conn. on this board that can recommend an independent shop or offer some assistance.
Which ever way you go "GOOD LUCK"
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: bmwpower on May 13, 2008, 11:34:16 AM
Whatever you do, before you turn the key again...

- You'll need a new headgasket, new crank bolt and new head bolts.  These are not reusable.

- You'll need to torque the head bolts in the proper sequence using a torque wrench and torque angle meter (or make one yourself).

-  You will need to have the cams locked in place (preferably using the proper tool for the job) in the proper orientation before putting the chain back on and aligning the cam sprockets.  This is key.  A second set of hands would be helpful here, but not necessary.

- Make sure you manually rotate the engine several times by using a socket/ratchet on the crank bolt.  Rotate the engine clockwise (as you stand in front of the car).  Make sure there are no weird noises.  Make sure nothing binds.


Let us know where you are right now in the process and we can help you out.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on May 13, 2008, 11:36:00 AM
Quote from: elementskater_xx;49207
Ok so i looked at my pistons and my timming was def off. I have stamp markings in my pistons. They are off from the original ones. Like right next to it. I am probably picking up a new block within the next week. But i am not sure. Anything I can do to maybe resurface my pistons without taking my engine out of my car?

What do you mean resurface your pistons?

How bad can they be. I am doing a engine build for a guy who bent all 8 exhaust valves. Pistons are fine. Don't get me wrong, they got some dings in them, but nothing major. I have done many a head job with busted belts and chains, never have had to replace a piston. If your pistons are bad enough to need to be resurfaced, (which you can't do) they need to be replaced.

Lets see some pictures of these pistons.

I can't imagine what your old drill sergeant say to you right about now. I can only imagine.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on May 13, 2008, 03:02:37 PM
Ok I am taking some pics tonight. I also just bought a truck to get me around while i do this. Plus someone in mass is selling me a block. So it will come in handy. I am right now waiting for my head to come back from the shop. I had 3 bent exhaust valves. I am just going to take it slow on the rebuild. Not to slow cause i love my car and the way it drives.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Cobra Jet on May 14, 2008, 07:54:52 AM
take LOTS of pics of the current state of the engine as it sits in your vehicle NOW...  These pics will help others on here to diagnose OR point out ANY OTHER possible problems or issues BEFORE you reinstall the next head...

Some more questions:

did you check the condition of the cam/timing sprockets?
did you check the condition of the chain?
did you check the condition of the timing chain tensioner?
did you check the condition of the timing chain guide rails and any other associated parts for the timing system?

Since you have everything apart and if you have not checked those above items, I really suggesst doing so, because if they are worn or in need of replacement, it's better to do it now, rather than getting everything all back together and having to tear it down again due to a timing related issue or noise.  

bmwpower rebuilt the M42 that's in my 318ic, so he (and many others on here) know how intricate these engines are and what the proper procedures are for a correct rebuild & start....

ask many questions and as asked by others, take plenty of pics and get them posted up for others who can possibly assist (or can point out potential issues).
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 11, 2008, 11:17:21 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR001.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR002.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR003.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR004.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR005.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR006.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/CAR007.jpg)



This is where i am at so far. Sorry it took so long had some stuff to finish up. I got my head back again. They said i bent all my exhaust valves. I tried looking for the tool needed to set my cams but can't find it anywhere. Anyone have any advice?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Wise Old Dog on June 11, 2008, 03:45:04 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Camshaft-Alignment-Locking-Cam-Timing-Holding-Tool_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35625QQihZ015QQitemZ250257935612QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
You also need a tensioner tool to get the chain tight. The one on the engine is too weak for this procedure.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on June 11, 2008, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: Wise Old Dog;51071

You also need a tensioner tool to get the chain tight. The one on the engine is too weak for this procedure.

Can you elaborate on this tool?

I haven't seen it, nor read about it before in the service manual. Am I missing something?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 11, 2008, 06:03:09 PM
Quote from: peerless;51075
Can you elaborate on this tool?

I haven't seen it, nor read about it before in the service manual. Am I missing something?


According to what the book says it's a tool to keep the cams aligned while working on the engine.  Someone gave me a schematic of it, but i can't get it made.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 11, 2008, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: Wise Old Dog;51071
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Camshaft-Alignment-Locking-Cam-Timing-Holding-Tool_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35625QQihZ015QQitemZ250257935612QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
You also need a tensioner tool to get the chain tight. The one on the engine is too weak for this procedure.


Alright man i just bid on this.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: colin86325 on June 11, 2008, 06:12:26 PM
Quote from: peerless;51075
Can you elaborate on this tool?

I haven't seen it, nor read about it before in the service manual. Am I missing something?


This was on that CAD drawing that I gave you to show your machinist.  It's basically a piece of rod that threads into the tensioner hole, is adjustable, and can be locked in place with a nut.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Wise Old Dog on June 11, 2008, 06:29:25 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cam-Alignment-Engine-Vanos-Tools-6-for-BMW-Repair_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43998QQihZ007QQitemZ170228028271QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW#ebayphotohosting
114220 is the tensioner
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 11, 2008, 07:04:12 PM
Make sure you lock the flywheel into place at cyl #1 TDC when you time the cams and chain. From the pics you have it right.

Follow the directions letter for letter in the manual on how to time the chain.

I did not use the cam locking tool as you see on ebay. I used the "two adjustable wrenches and a C-clamp method that many have used on other cars.
All you are looking to do is keep the cams from moving around on you as they will be under tension from the valve springs.

Here is a pic of how you'd position the wrenches on the flats of the cams to hold them while you time them.
Hope this helps. You really need to make sure you take all the slack out of the timing chain and that everything is hooked up right and ready to go.

(http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/8/web/2588000-2588999/2588092_36_full.jpg)
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Petebee on June 11, 2008, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: nomad;51087
Make sure you lock the flywheel into place at cyl #1 TDC when you time the cams and chain. From the pics you have it right.

Follow the directions letter for letter in the manual on how to time the chain.

I did not use the cam locking tool as you see on ebay. I used the "two adjustable wrenches and a C-clamp method that many have used on other cars.
All you are looking to do is keep the cams from moving around on you as they will be under tension from the valve springs.

Here is a pic of how you'd position the wrenches on the flats of the cams to hold them while you time them.
Hope this helps. You really need to make sure you take all the slack out of the timing chain and that everything is hooked up right and ready to go.

(http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/8/web/2588000-2588999/2588092_36_full.jpg)


Did you use the wrenches to hold the flat section on the cams (in between the lobes) or the squared off ends of the camshafts that are opposite of the timing gear?

I am collecting parts to replace the timing components on my daily and I want to make sure that I secure the cams properly.

I bought a used engine for its unworn cam sprockets and I've been practicing removing/replacing on that before I dig into the real job. The cams slipped a tiny bit during one of my practice stints...maybe a few degrees of rotation (they weren't locked in place) but I just moved them back into position so the flat sides on the ends were lined up flat horizontally. I'd prefer to lock the cams when I attempt for real on the daily driver.

With all of the problems people have been having lately with this I'm somewhat squeamish :o
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 11, 2008, 11:38:09 PM
I'm thinking the square ends of the cam shafts. I've seen it done on the flat sections of the  shaft in miatas. I think there is less room on this though.

Wrenches can also be used of course.


If I remember correctly, the exhaust cam should be done first, then tighten down the cam gear, and move on to the intake cam. With the gear loose on the shaft you can move the cam slightly so that it is straight across the flats. This of course means the cam gear itself has to be on the right tooth. There is only one "correct" position, so if it's not perfect then keep trying. Once you have the gears on the right tooth of the chain, the cams in the right location (flat across the rear square ends) and the cam gear bolts centered in the slots then it'll all make sense.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 10:06:29 AM
I have put the head on. I tightened all the head bolts down to 22 ft/lbs then an additional 90 deg and then an additional 90 degs. I put a 8mm allen key in the flywheel at tdc. My cam squares int he back are flush with each other, i put a pencil on them and they are flat. I am not sure how they sit in compoarision to the head, But the cams are flat with each other. My sprochet wheels in the front on the cams are 15 links away from each other intermideant.  Now from my understanding this is correct and how it should be?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 10:27:27 AM
15 Links apart:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/Timmingchain001.jpg)

Right timming gear:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/Timmingchain005.jpg)

Left timming gear:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/Timmingchain006.jpg)

Cam square lobes flat:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/Timmingchain002.jpg)

Cam Lobes Flat:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/Timmingchain003.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/Elementskater_xx/Timmingchain004.jpg)

So here is where I am at. Here is where i seem to always fuck it up. So if any one can see soemthing wrong please tell. Me. lso when i turn the crank by hand, i feel some preasure in certain spot when i am turning it.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 10:37:31 AM
Also there is a squeking noise that comes when i get to approx tdc.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on June 13, 2008, 10:54:22 AM
Quote from: colin86325;51079
This was on that CAD drawing that I gave you to show your machinist.  It's basically a piece of rod that threads into the tensioner hole, is adjustable, and can be locked in place with a nut.

Hmm, makes sense, but I don't remember it on the cad drawings. I only remember the cam locking tool and the tdc pin?

I do remember trying to set the gears properly and thinking 'A tool to tension up this chain would be great'. I just stuck the tensioner in there and did the best I could with the cams locked.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 11:19:48 AM
The cam gear bolts do not look centerd, do i have to tear it all down again to get those centerd?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 01:25:36 PM
for reference:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318istimingchain.html

Cam gear bolts are not centered, when it is all put together right they will be centered.

Use the trick I posted to hold your cams with the rear flats even. In the photo your exhaust cam is off, not flat, it looks a bit anti-clockwise and the intake cam looks a tiny bit clockwise, see how it's not even with the valve cover mounting surface?

All you have to do is take off the cam gear bolts and let them slide off the cams, then realign. I did the same thing you did the first time and puzzled over it, then adjusted it, tried again and it was right.

What is really important is if you have the cams themselves in the right position to begin with: front lobes pointing towards each other
(http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/tdccamsup.jpg)

When the cams are in this correct position
and
When the flywheel is at TDC
and
When the flats of the rear lobes are clamped firmly in a perfectly flat position
and
The tensioner is not applying force to the chain
then
The cam gears will go on in a perfect alignment with the cam gear bolts truly centered in the cam gear elliptical holes.
(http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/camgearmark.jpg)


15 rivets inclusive from arrow to arrow is correct, but remember that you may be one tooth off on both cam gears if they are not lined up correctly.

BTW
The head looked nice to me and the block seems ok. Not sure if you bent rods as mentioned before from having the coolant in the cylinders. Other than that I hope it goes well.

Post pics when you get it all timed up.


EDIT:
I think you may just need to loosen the cam gear bolts, reposition and lock the cams and you may be good to go.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Wise Old Dog on June 13, 2008, 01:25:41 PM
Gear bolts are not to be centered. The gears have slotted holes for adjustment.  
You will never get it exact unless you can tighten the chain up to simulate the "tug" that the crankshaft gear puts on the chain while running. Thats what the tool does. In other words, If you set up your chain like you are doing now. And you get it so it looks perfect. When you run the engine, the crank gear pulls on the long stretch of chain from the intake gear so hard, that it will  tighten that part of the chain to the point where your adjustment is off a little. Think of it like pre-loading the chain. Many people on this board have done it your way and do not have any problems, as it is only off a tad. And you really don't know it's off unless you have the tensioner tool to check it with. I'm just letting you know how it should be done.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 01:43:52 PM
Wise-
Can you give a reference as to where you are to position the cam relative to the cam gear slots? A manual perhaps? I'd like to make adjustments if there is indeed another factory spec. I understand what you're saying about the cam possibly being pulled to one side or the other relative to its installed position. I'm going off of the Bentley manual specs. From what I read this is stock baseline. I'd love to have a factory BMW detailed tech manual though, especially if it is different in any way.

15 links on a chain will always be 15 links so the intake and exhaust will always be where you set them relative to each other. Less stretch than on a rubber timing belt. I've heard people have good luck tuning M42 intake cam advanced 5 degrees, which is where the gear slots come into play too.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: nomad;51211
for reference:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318istimingchain.html

Cam gear bolts are not centered, when it is all put together right they will be centered.

Use the trick I posted to hold your cams with the rear flats even. In the photo your exhaust cam is off, not flat, it looks a bit anti-clockwise and the intake cam looks a tiny bit clockwise, see how it's not even with the valve cover mounting surface?

All you have to do is take off the cam gear bolts and let them slide off the cams, then realign. I did the same thing you did the first time and puzzled over it, then adjusted it, tried again and it was right.

What is really important is if you have the cams themselves in the right position to begin with: front lobes pointing towards each other
(http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/tdccamsup.jpg)

When the cams are in this correct position
and
When the flywheel is at TDC
and
When the flats of the rear lobes are clamped firmly in a perfectly flat position
and
The tensioner is not applying force to the chain
then
The cam gears will go on in a perfect alignment with the cam gear bolts truly centered in the cam gear elliptical holes.
(http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/camgearmark.jpg)


15 rivets inclusive from arrow to arrow is correct, but remember that you may be one tooth off on both cam gears if they are not lined up correctly.

BTW
The head looked nice to me and the block seems ok. Not sure if you bent rods as mentioned before from having the coolant in the cylinders. Other than that I hope it goes well.

Post pics when you get it all timed up.


EDIT:
I think you may just need to loosen the cam gear bolts, reposition and lock the cams and you may be good to go.



So you want me to loosen bolth cam sprockets. Readjust my exhaust counter clockwise. Then adjust my intake cam clockwise a hair? When i put a pencil on the cam squares it looks straight. And should i turn my sprockets a tooth clockwise or counter clockwise?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 02:34:42 PM
EDIT
If it is just the photo that is making it look off and they are indeed totally straight then you are off a tooth.

The more I look at it the more I think your exhaust cam is anti-clockwise by a fraction.
Loosen the exhaust cam gear but leave it on, use a wrench on the square flats and adjust it clockwise a bit. You may be able to get the bolts centered then.

The intake cam is only a tiny bit off so you may be able to do the same.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 02:40:09 PM
Ok i just moved the cams a bit and the holes lined up good. I am not sure if i am tooth of. It looks identical to the book. It's hard to tell with pics you posted cause they are taken off to the side. There is still a noise when i turn it. Like something is under preasure. I am going to mess with it a little more hen i will get back to ya.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on June 13, 2008, 03:02:29 PM
Maybe this picture will help out. What I have noticed is that when you have one of the cam bolts centered the others are not centered.

This was assembled with a cam locking tool. On the second M42 I just did I got the same result, even after playing with it. I would not worry if the bolts are not all exactly centered as I don't think its possible.

Element, if your sure your cams are dialed in and the chain is on tight with no slack between the gears and from the intake to the crank, you should be fine. All slack should be on the tensioner side. As a side note, I use locktite on all the cam gear bolts.

First M42
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/M42timing.jpg)

Second M42. You can clearly see 2 cam bolts are centered where the others are off-set.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/peerless/DSCN0317.jpg)
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 03:02:34 PM
pics needed element.

Great pics peerless. Where'd you get those fancy "blue camo" gears? ;)

Noise is probably normal.
Everything in there is under pressure. You've got pistons sliding in bores, bearings, valves, springs, cams etc.

I highly suggest you drop the oil pan and take a look at the rods to see if anything looks strange down there before firing it up.

If you have the rear flats even and the front cam lobes pointing towards each other and the bolts centered in the cam gear slots then you're in good shape.

Make sure to put a dab of medium locktite on the bolts so they don't loosen up. That's what i read and did, not sure if it's critical though.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 03:21:17 PM
I would love to take some pics. But my girlfriend has stolen my camera for the beach. But my head looks just like your pic. Only sideways. And what do you mean by pointing each other? Slightly pointing at each other? Or directly dead point of lobes facing at each other? Like your fingers on each hand facing each other?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 03:37:12 PM
I mean just like the pics I posted with the red circles on them.
That's from the website I put a link to.

You're probably good to go. Check that bottom end though.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: peerless on June 13, 2008, 04:02:34 PM
Nomad wrote:
Quote
Great pics peerless. Where'd you get those fancy "blue camo" gears? ;)

LOL, those are brand new cam gears from BMW. The 'blueing' you see is from the hardened steel. The 'camo' effect you see is from my oily fingers.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 04:11:37 PM
Ok so it looks identical to the pics posted above. I even got a second opinion, just cause my eyes hurt from looking at this all day. Thanks for your help. What do you mean look at the bottom end?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 05:11:35 PM
I'll quote myself.
Quote from: nomad;51223


I highly suggest you drop the oil pan and take a look at the rods to see if anything looks strange down there before firing it up.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 13, 2008, 07:57:34 PM
Ok well after messing with it some more. I am kinda back to where i was. The back squares are def flat and the front lobes are def looking in the right spot but the holes are not lined up. I am at a loss. I am wating for my girl to show up so i can get my damn camera. Will take some pics soon and send em your way thanks again.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: nomad on June 13, 2008, 08:28:46 PM
If the bolts are totally to one side of the slots on each cam gear then you have them off by one tooth, both should move and you'll be good
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 14, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
Well I am almost posotive i got it. The center bolts are not completely centerd but close. I also put the pencil on the back squares and it's flat. Also the #1 piston lobes are facing each other. Well kinda mora like a triangulaur shape. But it looks just like the pictures i have seen. I have it all back togethor> I have to wait till tommarow to fire it up tho. I cut my exhaust to get the manifold back on on. So i gotta get some pipe to fit it. I wish i could get some pics on here but i have not been able to locate my camera. Thanks for everyones help. Maybe someone can post a pic of what thier back cam suares look like with a pencil across the, and maybe a frontish pic of thier #1 piston lobes. That would be great.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: elementskater_xx on June 14, 2008, 09:53:49 PM
I am also wondering on the exhaust cam should the arrow sit right in between the 15th and 16th link or dead on #15 from the intake cam arrow? That will def clear up alot of confusion i have. In my Haynes manuakl it shows right dead on the 15th. In the pic above it shows it dead on. But in a couple of other pics i have viewed it shows it in between.
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: Cobra Jet on June 14, 2008, 10:03:36 PM
before you start it up (again), I would definitely check and recheck (even if you are getting a headache) just so your are 100% certain everything is in place, torqued and aligned appropriately BEFORE firing it up.

Try contacting bmwpower on here via a PM, he reassembled my M42 and can probably help out as well.  I think I recall him stating the same that the cam gear bolts were not 100% "centered" - I could be wrong or right, so do PM him as he surely would be able to check out this thread and possibly assist (if he's not too busy).  In fact, I'm pretty sure he has digital pics of my M42 as he was assembling it too... probably another version or possible same or better than those already posted (based on angles, etc).

One other thing, did you determine what the "pressure" was when manually cranking over the engine?   You mentioned it a few times and I'm just wondering if you checked all areas as recommended by others before you fire it up - have you found out why you have a slight "squeak" or "pressure" - if so, what was the problem?
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: bmwpower on June 14, 2008, 10:29:10 PM
When I did the install, everything lined up nice for me.  It took a couple of tries to get it perfect (since things were under tension, etc), but it eventually worked out.

Sorry for the big ass picts, but sometimes bigger is better. :)


(http://home.comcast.net/~bmwpower/IMG_5176.JPG)

(http://home.comcast.net/~bmwpower/IMG_5179.JPG)
Title: Somethings wrong.
Post by: E30nate on June 18, 2008, 04:59:28 PM
i just had to redo the head on my car, and the bolts werent exactly centered on the gears. my car is running like a champ, so as long as the cams are set right and the crank is at TDC, it should be good.