M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: Letsplayskatch on May 03, 2008, 12:52:29 PM
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Rightho,
Im having a little trouble finding the right information regarding E36 S50 valves [In+Ex], and also M42 valve dimensions. Im getting a bit overwhelmed by all the forum infomation out there and I need someone to just varify / fill in some blanks.
Id like to know if the E36 S50B30/B32 valves are interchangeable with the M42 valves. I know the S50 valves are bigger, with the S52 valves being 35mm, but what are their lengths? Are they longer or shorter than the M42's, and if they are longer then is it possible/wise to have them machied down to fit?
Im having some headwork done, so the 34/35mm diameter of the vavles isnt an issue as they'll be matched to the head.
Other possibility - should I just buy the valves, leave them at their stock length, and then have the pistons pocketed slightly (custom by JE Pistons), and have the head bored to match the 34/35mm diameter?
Thank people - would really appreciate any help on this :D
Scott
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S50B30/B32 valves are about 15 mm longer. I have 10 of S50B30 valves (got them cheap even if I do not really need them) and they are quite a bit larger looking than my stock valves (34 mm vs 33 mm and 7 mm stem vs 6 mm stem).
Better fit might be M60B40 or M62B44 valves which are 35 mm, either 7 or 6 mm stems and only 2,5 mm shorter. With a bit of modifications to cylinder head they should fit.
I have ordered one M62B44 valve and once it arrives I will post photos for comparison.
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Better fit might be M60B40 or M62B44 valves which are 35 mm, either 7 or 6 mm stems and only 2,5 mm shorter. With a bit of modifications to cylinder head they should fit.
I have ordered one M62B44 valve and once it arrives I will post photos for comparison.
Excellent stuff! Though, does that mean you'll get a much shorter 'lift' time as theyre 2.5mm shorter? I would have thought that longer valves would be a better starting point than shorter ones.
Is 35mm sensible to use on the M42 heads do you reckon? I say id like to go to 35mm, but I have no idea if that'll make it flow too much - as I understand that flow isnt as important as velocity.
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No M62 valve yet but here is photo of M42B18 and S50B30 intake valves together. Can you guess which is which? :D
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/09/91/89/1099189_large.jpg)
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Got M62 valve + seat yesterday for measurements, will post photo later. It looks identical to M42 6 mm stem valve but valve plate is larger and valve stem bit shorter. I'm quite optimistic it could be made to work with M42 valvetrain.
And it only cost something like 14€ :eek:
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Excellent! Looking forward to hearing about those :D Ive decided against the MetricMechanic valletrain components - id rather spec my own internals than pay their prices...
All I need is an actual M42 head now anyway then measurements can be taken.
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They use M50 lifters because they hold more oil!
I actually bought M50 lifters new for a rebuild that I never really started...
If you're interested shoot me a PM.
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From left:
M62B44 35 mm / 6 mm
M42B18 33 mm / 6 mm
S50B30 34 mm / 7 mm
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/10/71/1101071_large.jpg)
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/10/72/1101072_large.jpg)
M62 valve stem lenght difference can be seen on first photo. I am quite optimistic it can be worked out easily, for example with new seats (which I have to get anyway) that sit bit deeper on cylinder head.
This would lower CR a bit but that is only a positive change, forged pistons I have give about 12.5 which might be bit too high :eek:
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From left:
M62B44 35 mm / 6 mm
M42B18 33 mm / 6 mm
S50B30 34 mm / 7 mm
M62 valve stem lenght difference can be seen on first photo. I am quite optimistic it can be worked out easily, for example with new seats (which I have to get anyway) that sit bit deeper on cylinder head.
This would lower CR a bit but that is only a positive change, forged pistons I have give about 12.5 which might be bit too high :eek:
So it looks like the M62B44 valves are a very viable option then! How much shorter are they from the M42 ones? You could always just use washers to space the valve out from the lifter, to get the desired lift etc.
I would have thought that a closed-valve doesnt really affect CR's too much :confused::confused:
They use M50 lifters because they hold more oil!
I actually bought M50 lifters new for a rebuild that I never really started...
If you're interested shoot me a PM.
So the M50 hydraulic lifters are a direct replacement for the M42 hyds then?
I might be interested in them from you, but im quite far from you. Might be cheaper closer to home, ill keep you posted anyhoo :D
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Yup Metric Mechanic uses them for their builds.
Let me know, I can ship them using the company business account so shipping shouldn't be completely outrageous.
They're brand spankin new but I'd be willing to give you a good deal on them
So it looks like the M62B44 valves are a very viable option then! How much shorter are they from the M42 ones? You could always just use washers to space the valve out from the lifter, to get the desired lift etc.
I would have thought that a closed-valve doesnt really affect CR's too much :confused::confused:
So the M50 hydraulic lifters are a direct replacement for the M42 hyds then?
I might be interested in them from you, but im quite far from you. Might be cheaper closer to home, ill keep you posted anyhoo :D
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Yup Metric Mechanic uses them for their builds.
Is it me or do MM make out they have all of this 'exclusive' stuff - when they only really just charge a bomb for OEM parts from other BMW's? Im pretty sure the beehive springs come from a Hemi...and thier forged internals are sourced from some no-name chineese brand. Obviously i'd stand corrected if someone showed me some proof :p
Im rather interested in your lifters then dude. Im gathering as much info as i can before i start spending, as Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance (the 6 P's :D ).
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Is it me or do MM make out they have all of this 'exclusive' stuff - when they only really just charge a bomb for OEM parts from other BMW's? Im pretty sure the beehive springs come from a Hemi...and thier forged internals are sourced from some no-name chineese brand. Obviously i'd stand corrected if someone showed me some proof :p
Im rather interested in your lifters then dude. Im gathering as much info as i can before i start spending, as Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance (the 6 P's :D ).
hahaha I like that "the 6 P's"
I'm actually building my M50 with that in mind!
Some say the MM stuff is worth it, but IMO I think you can build most of the stuff yourself and save a decent amount of money!
I feel like Jeremy Clarkson saying that...
Some say that MM builds their motors using slave monkeys, all we is know is that they charge an arm and a leg!
Maybe not as funny but ehh I tried!
Anyways, keep researching and let me know if you want em, I haven't really posted a for sale ad for them but it would be nice to recoup some of the cost for my M50/M52 build!
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I love the "6 P's", its easy to remember, while being pretty true too!
Yes Jeremy Clarkson does come up with some rather good quotes, like those when he's describing the Stig!
YEah, im a little sceptical about the MM stuff. After all, i doubt a small-town euopean car modifier is going to go to such lengths as to have all their components (valvetrain that is) custom made. Id expect them to have taken measurements, and then seen what other engines have components that replace stock ones - like what Boyracer is doing pretty much.
So far I think I have my cams sorted (re-grinds, or new Cat Cams), valves seem a dead cert', and the lifters seem sorted too. So that only leaves a few more items. Ill definateley give you shout if and when I need you M50 parts :D
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Props to you people for actually getting real data, and posting pictures of it too!
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Indeed, and more data to come :)
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Boyracer
Can you measure the weight of the valves for us?
What about s52 valves? have they been tried, or are they the same as the s50?
It'd be great if we could find a set of OEM valves that are light, strong and will work well with an m42/44...BMW have build enough sporty road cars for there to be at least one good set for us to use!
Personally, i love projects that are innovative and are clever enough to reuse oem parts, anybody can buy parts off the shelf but it takes real skill to search through a manufactures parts bin and come out with a bitchin car.
Im building mine like that for three reasons.
1) the price of oem parts is much cheaper than aftermarket
2) to be innovative
3) if im on a weekend at the nurburgring and i warp a disc, id like to be able to drive to the bmw dealer and pic up a new disc, rather than searching desperately for a shop that carriers the aftermarket brand that im using.
Great thread guys :)
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... updated in my next post;)
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nice, but you forgot to add the length of the valves.
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Wow, thanks thanks for sharing nuvolarossa! Good info!
So if dealing with the different length valves isn't too hard, then switching to M62B44 inlet and exhaust valves would make a big difference. I'm betting there would be a noticeable difference in air flowing through intake side.
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But for the people with engine's prior to 9/1992 there are even more advantages.
Another big advantage is the weight:
-M42B18 (before 9/1992)
Intake valves: 58 grams x 8 valves = 464 grams
Exhaust valvles: 54 grams x 8 valves = 432 grams
Total: 896 grams
-M62B44
Intake valves: 50 grams x 8 valves = 400 grams
Exhaust valves: 46 grams x 8 valves = 368 grams
Total: 768 grams
That means a reduction of 128 grams or 0.28lbs pounds! And less weight means less wear and the ability to go to slightly higher RPMS!!!
(Now if only there were some lighter mechanical lifters and springs to go along with this setup:rolleyes: but that might be for another thread.)
On top of that, the valve stems of the M62B44 are 6mm in diameter while the pre-9/1992 M42 has 7mm diameter valve stems. So less resistance and more air flowing through the head!
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But the larger valves brings something else to my mind, would the pistons need to be pocketed to avoid any clearance related problems?
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I think ETK does not list valve lenghts, hence need for measuring them. Then there is also different grooves for valve retainer collets etc. which are not mentioned in ETK.
I think I will go M62B44 route. OEM parts are cheap, cheaper than aftermarket parts. Since I have 6 mm valve stem engine, I can leave exhaust side pretty much standard.
Exhaust:
8 x 6 mm valve guide + installation
Intake:
8 x 6 mm valve guide + installation
8 x M62B44 35 mm valve seat OEM
8 x M62B44 35 mm valve OEM
Question really is, how I can solve the problem with 2,5 mm shorter valve. I am going to use solid lifters so hyrdaulic lifter adjustment range is not a problem.
The problem is that valve spring must go to space that is 2,5 mm shorter than stock. With stock camshaft that might not be enough to cause coil bind but seat pressure would be too high and any really aggressive cam with big lift is going to give problems.
Two options are to find springs that fit better to shorter space or machining cylinder head so that the stock springs sit 2,5 mm deeper on head.
As for valve cutouts on pistons, it would be very good idea to check them! Especially if you use larger lift too. But those cutouts should be quite easy to be enlarged. I use Wössner race pistons which already have valve cutouts for huge lifts and 36 mm valves so I'm all set.
Also, I am going to overbore then engine 84 mm -> 86 mm which should mean that 35 mm valves clear the cylinder block edges. If you stay with 84 mm bore you should check there is enough clearance in there too.
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be ready for some serious informations! Working on it now.
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Sounds good nuvola :)
Thanks for the first chart, im now looking forward to the new thing you have on the way :)
Just as a question, is there any further weight savings to be made by going to aftermarket valves? 50 grams does seem very light but is there any huge difference between these and an aftermarket alternative?
Ive searched through a few valve company's websites but none of them so far have listed valve weight.
Does anybody know what material the m62 valves are made from?
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I found a page of information on the supertech website, again not listing valve weights but listing length and dia.
http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/supertech/valvetrain.html
How about valves from a different manufacturer?
It seems like the s2000 or the RSX/integra valves might fit. They are longer but they can be machined......just keeping my options open :)
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NEW TABLE UPDATED, pdf to downlaod:
http://robmw.altervista.org/_altervista_ht/bmwvalves.pdf
tell me if link works!:D
now need to find info about S5x and M62bxx:(
can a intake diesel valve be fitted in a petrol engine if dimensions are right? I mean for strength/materials...:confused:
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Thanks for the new chart nuvola :)
Seeing as the m62 seems to be where we are moving towards, have you guys considered the s62? It was a modefied version of the m62 used in the e39 m5.
Update: i checked in real oem and apparently it uses the same valves.
Different part number but same valve stem and seat width....the different part numbers might mean different valves lengths?
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE92&mospid=47550&btnr=11_2662&hg=11&fg=25
Also it uses hydraulic lifters rather than the solid type i was hoping for :(
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dunno about s62 valve length... know only that they are 35mm/6mm :(
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link doesn't work:(
I would assume that a diesel valve would be fine, but I could be wrong... is there any way you could find out what the valve is made out of?
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dunno about s62 valve length... know only that they are 35mm/6mm :(
I would bet they are the same as the M62 or shorter. bmwparts.info lists the valves as 48 grams, 2 grams lighter than the M62 valves.
Just looked it up, BMW S54B32 (E46 M3) intake valves also have a 35 mm seat and 6 mm stem. They are listed at 51 grams so they might be longer, enabling cutting to length and what not to make them fit.
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And another possible selection (though expensive and high quality) is Ferrea valves. They have blank valves you can purchase in either titanium or a steel alloy. Also since the valves are blank, it would avoid any problems with sizing and fitment. But they do cost a lot, $20-$40 per steel valve and $100+ per titanium valve. Hehe, 16 titanium valves would be around $2000
Part# / Type / Head Dia. / Stem Dia. / Length / Tip Length / References
Titanium:
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/titanium5-6.png)
Competition Plus (steel alloy?):
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/CompeitionPlus5-6.png)
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People with the pre-9/92 M42's already are switching from 7 mm stems to 6 mm, so why not go a step further and go to 5 mm stems? This switch would save a lot of weight if it worked/was possible.
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link doesn't work:(
I would assume that a diesel valve would be fine, but I could be wrong... is there any way you could find out what the valve is made out of?
From the quick research I found, BMW diesels use much smaller valves. The 3 liter M57 diesel in the E46 330d, has an intake valve only 25 mm in diameter.
You can find what a valve is made out of, but it would probably require sacrificing a valve to do that.:( In general, most valves are a steel alloy, and then there is the occasional racing valve made of titanium.
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Excellent information here guys, more information on these few pages than there has ever been on our M42/M44's - great to see!
People with the pre-9/92 M42's already are switching from 7 mm stems to 6 mm, so why not go a step further and go to 5 mm stems? This switch would save a lot of weight if it worked/was possible.
If using a smaller diameter stem, wouldnt that cause problems? Is it safe to use a 1mm undersize stem in the stock guide? To then use a 5mm stem in a 7mm guide is asking for trouble, sureley :confused: :confused: just throwing it out there!
I think the main route here is the M62B44 really - just need to get length right for the collets.
Boyracer - why not go for the larger tappets from an M50? They flow more oil as you may already know. For springs, try MM's beehive ones. I know, i too would rather findout for myself where they come from instead of buying from MM - but all i can find are Mustang BeeHive springs...and im unsure if they'd fit. So im leaning toward the MM ones at the moment. I'm sure theyd be able to cope with, say, an extra 1mm lift.
We should distill all of the information on this page and put it on its own website :D
Scott
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If you go down on valve stem size you must of course change the valve guides too. And that means you have to get valve seat job too because new guides most likely have bit different concentrity then original ones.
You most propably have to change the guides in any case, mine were worn outside of factory specification on development cylinder head. I bought it used and I have no idea how many km's it has been driven.
Also, use the opportunity to get bulleted guides instead of blunt ended stock guides, bulleted ones flow bit better on intake side and much better on exhaust side.
I think M42 and M50 use same diameter lifters/followers/tappets? And I think you want as small oil capacity in them as possible because oil does weight and weight is bad in valvetrain.
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Furthermore on this topic, I chatted with the machinist today and he suspected that 35 mm valves might just fit stock 33 mm seats. I have to find this out, it would lower the costs big time if I can get away without buying new seats and then removing old ones and inserting new ones.
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If you go down on valve stem size you must of course change the valve guides too. And that means you have to get valve seat job too because new guides most likely have bit different concentrity then original ones.
So where would you get the valve guides from which have the smaller internal diameter? Concentricity shouldnt be an issue; surely lapping the valves into the head would sort this out.
Also, use the opportunity to get bulleted guides instead of blunt ended stock guides, bulleted ones flow bit better on intake side and much better on exhaust side.
Again, where would consider looking for these? Another BMW model? Or, can they be machined from OEM parts? Valve guides are a complete mystery to me - very little is ever said about them when talking about cylinder heads.
I think M42 and M50 use same diameter lifters/followers/tappets? And I think you want as small oil capacity in them as possible because oil does weight and weight is bad in valvetrain.
Yes the M50 ones are direct replacement for the M42 ones, and they flow more oil. Of course, id want solid lifters/followers/tappets (all the same thing) as theyre more reliable etc - but again...where to look? I read that someone on here (he has a white IS and is from the UK too I think) is using VW parts.
Sorry for the 'where to buy' Q's, but I just need to differentiate between what parts are from BMW (i.e another model), which are aftermarket/uprated from/for BMW, and what parts are from other manufacturers entireley (i.e. those S2000 valves metioned earlier).
Scott :)
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So where would you get the valve guides from which have the smaller internal diameter? Concentricity shouldnt be an issue; surely lapping the valves into the head would sort this out.
It seems that BMW does not sell valve guides anymore, atleast not to E36. But they must be available elsewhere, I suspect ordinary places that fix engines can source them.
I think lapping only finishes the seal between valve and seat. After fitting new guides you probably need to grind the seats to suit new guides.
Again, where would consider looking for these? Another BMW model? Or, can they be machined from OEM parts? Valve guides are a complete mystery to me - very little is ever said about them when talking about cylinder heads.
If you find suitable stock M42 valve guides it should be possible to modify them in lathe, that's what I'm going to try :)
Race guides must be available somewhere too...
Yes the M50 ones are direct replacement for the M42 ones, and they flow more oil. Of course, id want solid lifters/followers/tappets (all the same thing) as theyre more reliable etc - but again...where to look? I read that someone on here (he has a white IS and is from the UK too I think) is using VW parts.
Sorry for the 'where to buy' Q's, but I just need to differentiate between what parts are from BMW (i.e another model), which are aftermarket/uprated from/for BMW, and what parts are from other manufacturers entireley (i.e. those S2000 valves metioned earlier).
You can convert stock lifter to be solids, just follow my build thread :)
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Will do, keep up the great info - its all much needed :)
Ill see what I can find out from BMW Whitehouse here in the uk, they must be able to source guides sureley. If not, ill have to call a few head companies I know to see what they reccomend.
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Got bored and did some research to all the possible candidate for valves. I might have missed a few hidden in BMW's large amount of engines, but here are engines that are available in both US and the rest of the world. All with 35-36 mm diameters and 5-6 mm diameter stems. The only info that is needed still is the length of the stems!
2008 E92 M3 S65 Intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 838 293
diameter: 35.7 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 43 gram
cost: 15.00 euro
2005 E60 M5 S85 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 833 775
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.97 mm
weight: 36 gram
cost: 16.40 euro
2004 E60 545i N62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 541 555
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 4.92 mm
weight: 42 gram
cost: 13.70 euro
2004 E46 M3 S54 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 7 830 889
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 5.97 mm
weight: 51 gram
cost: 15.30 euro
2002 E39 M5 S62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 1 408 015
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 5.97 mm
weight: 48 gram
cost: 14.10 euro
2000 E39 540i M62 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 1 435 480
diameter: 35.0 mm
stem: 5.94 mm
weight: 50 gram
cost: 13.50 euro
1990 E30 318is M42 intake valve:
part number: 11 34 1 722 908
diameter: 33.0 mm
stem: 6.97 mm
weight: 58 grams
cost: 20.00 euro
Notes:
-Most(all?) gasoline engines sold by BMW today, use 5mm diameter valve stems.
-Just about all engines that use 35 mm intake valves use 30.5 mm exhaust valves, so I guess that's a good combination for low street useable torque and emissions?
-In all my research, the most amazing thing were the E30 M3 S14 intake valves, 37 mm in diamter, 7mm diameter stems, and 50 euros each! and the 0.2 mm oversized valves were over 100 euros each!