M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: mrdane on April 28, 2008, 09:08:29 PM
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Not sure whether to go E30 or E36 chassis, so I'm wondering what limitations or complications each presents for building a M47 stroker.
Nothing wild, just an enjoyable daily driver; kinda like the Metric Mechanic 2000 Sport Engine (just at less cost.) In fact, I'm thinking of using the Metric Mechanic head to top it off.
Any comments or suggestions?
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The MM head is not meant for the M44. The M44 uses a different cam and valve system.
The heads may or may not interchange.
Taking an M44 and just having the cams reground and up the compression or having MM work its magic on those would make for a nice cheap setup probably capable of 170-180hp if combined with a custom chip.
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The MM head is not meant for the M44. The M44 uses a different cam and valve system.
The heads may or may not interchange.
Taking an M44 and just having the cams reground and up the compression or having MM work its magic on those would make for a nice cheap setup probably capable of 170-180hp if combined with a custom chip.
Thanks for the reply, Sheepdog.
Your suggested setup would leave the M44 bottom-end stock and retain the M44 head just re-worked, right?
Couldn't I also bump the displacement by using the M47 88mm crank? And I'm assuming I would I be well advised to start with a M44 E36 318i, right? Though, I haven't yet convinced myself whether I want a another E30 or another E36.
BTW, I assume you mean the MM M42 head is not meant for the M44 right? 'Cause I do believe MM (according to their website) offers both the "Sport" M42 head and the "Sport" M44 head. Nonetheless, it seems your recommendation is to start with a M44 and go from there.
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Thanks for the reply, Sheepdog.
Your suggested setup would leave the M44 bottom-end stock and retain the M44 head just re-worked, right?
Couldn't I also bump the displacement by using the M47 88mm crank? And I'm assuming I would I be well advised to start with a M44 E36 318i, right? Though, I haven't yet convinced myself whether I want a another E30 or another E36.
BTW, I assume you mean the MM M42 head is not meant for the M44 right? 'Cause I do believe MM (according to their website) offers both the "Sport" M42 head and the "Sport" M44 head. Nonetheless, it seems your recommendation is to start with a M44 and go from there.
The M44 head uses followers, not lifter buckets. the valvetrain is entirely different. If you plan to stroke it then there is no point in starting with an M44. What MM does with the heads is interchangeable, the head may not be between the two. I did not realize they offered an M44 head.
That is what I am saying, if you want to go cheap, get the M44, get the MM head, some reground cams, and a chip tune. I would consider higher compression pistons and go through the timing chain, oil pump and bearings as well since you are there. You end up with a fresh engine putting out may more than stock. With the MM heads you are able to raise at least a full compression point (from 10:1 up to 11:1) without needing higher octane, probably two, they could tell you for sure. You could bore it out while there as well, getting you probably 2 liters.
As soon as you start stroking, the price goes up A LOT. Add 2-3k. Boring just means pistons and does not mess with piston speeds.
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...If you plan to stroke it then there is no point in starting with an M44....
As soon as you start stroking, the price goes up A LOT. Add 2-3k. Boring just means pistons and does not mess with piston speeds.
No doubt increasing stroke has greater consequences that increasing bore.
I find it interesting, from reading MM's website, that the stroked:
M42 "2100 Rally" engine has 87mm 11.5:1 CR pistons and produces 205hp & the
M44 "2100 Rally" engine has 87mm 10:1 CR pistons and produces 215hp.
More horsepower with lower CR vs less HP with higher CR, seems odd. I have no expertise from which to question this, but it still makes me wonder why such a difference.
I'm somewhat fixated on the 88mm stroke crank, so I'll have to raise my budget to accommodate it.
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M44 "2100 Rally" engine has 87mm 10:1 CR pistons and produces 215hp.
Where is this in their site? In a pdf that I have the only "Rally" engine is M42 based...:eek:
I need more details:D
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No doubt increasing stroke has greater consequences that increasing bore.
I find it interesting, from reading MM's website, that the stroked:
M42 "2100 Rally" engine has 87mm 11.5:1 CR pistons and produces 205hp & the
M44 "2100 Rally" engine has 87mm 10:1 CR pistons and produces 215hp.
More horsepower with lower CR vs less HP with higher CR, seems odd. I have no expertise from which to question this, but it still makes me wonder why such a difference.
I'm somewhat fixated on the 88mm stroke crank, so I'll have to raise my budget to accommodate it.
The M44 head is different, probably allows for a bigger cam and higher flow.
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MM is extremely overpriced, and in some cases your not getting the quality your paying for. Not trying to bash them but putting it out there.
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Where is this in their site? In a pdf that I have the only "Rally" engine is M42 based...:eek:
I need more details:D
Here's the basic data: (or linked (http://www.metricmechanic.com/prices/pricing-engines-kits.php))
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y132/mrdane/Document1.jpg)
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Here's the basic data: (or linked (http://www.metricmechanic.com/prices/pricing-engines-kits.php))
thank you... but who wrote that pdf must be drunk!:D M44 use 6mm valves from factory and E36 m42 too;)
I'd want to see what those Rally heads can do with a turbo:D
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thank you... but who wrote that pdf must be drunk!:D M44 use 6mm valves from factory and E36 m42 too;)
I'd want to see what those Rally heads can do with a turbo:D
Yeah, I think it is a kind-of, general, over-all, blanket assertion 'cause their other literature states that only pre-'93 M42 engines need converting from 7mm to 6mm valves.
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MM is extremely overpriced, and in some cases your not getting the quality your paying for. Not trying to bash them but putting it out there.
If you are just looking at the stuff on their site I can see why you would think that.
If you have been there, talked to Jim and actually see what all they do, you would not be saying that. There is a lot more to this than just the parts you are looking at. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you throw similar parts into and engine and start abusing it to 8k you will destroy it in no time. It will work, but for how long? I spent hours there talking with Jim about these motors, I know a lot more than just what is listed on the site. A standard m42 will not survive what his will, not by a long shot.
Take a look on the net and see what a rebuilt or mild performance m42 costs (yes, they do exist), then tell me MM is overpriced. Is MM expensive, yep, but you show me a place that does that much work on a non Ford or Chevy motor and will not charge a similar amount, or more. These are not simple bolt-ons. There is tons of machine work alone involved in making this motor what it is. Call around and ask a shop what they want to prep a block, port and polish the head, custom cams, custom intake and more.
You are looking at it as just a higher performance motor and that is not what these are. These are built to race spec and designed to live at high room for long periods. Overbuilt? Maybe, but that is better than it coming apart after 20k miles and a few days on the track.
To be honest, MM does not even make that much on these motors.
Price out what a decent small block Chevy costs then tell me these are overpriced.
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No, I say that from seeing the work. I occasionally work for Terry Tinney at Performance Motors, an m20 MM head came through and we where both disappointed at the overall work on a head that had that much invested into it. Yes I do know of a place that works on vintage non american motors, Terry Tinney. I know how much this stuff costs, its not cheap to get good work, and how much work is involved. Just because you've been there and had information overload and was utterly impressed with everything that guy said, doesnt mean he's god of m42's. Thats why he charges so much, people like you pumping up his ego. Ever heard of Rebello? Same case. Im not saying Tinney is the best engine builder ever, Im simply saying "MM is extremely overpriced, and in some cases your not getting the quality your paying for.".
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Part of the difference in hp between the M44 and the M42 is due to having a lower friction valve train. Though I doubt the 10hp difference is due to this alone. The M44 head probably flows a little better and it uses a MAF.
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No, I say that from seeing the work. I occasionally work for Terry Tinney at Performance Motors, an m20 MM head came through and we where both disappointed at the overall work on a head that had that much invested into it. Yes I do know of a place that works on vintage non american motors, Terry Tinney. I know how much this stuff costs, its not cheap to get good work, and how much work is involved. Just because you've been there and had information overload and was utterly impressed with everything that guy said, doesnt mean he's god of m42's. Thats why he charges so much, people like you pumping up his ego. Ever heard of Rebello? Same case. Im not saying Tinney is the best engine builder ever, Im simply saying "MM is extremely overpriced, and in some cases your not getting the quality your paying for.".
I was trained to rebuild engines and I was certified on transmissions, it was not information overload. If I had access to the tools I could build that motor (short of re-grinding the cams). I cannot speak for the M20 motors, I have seen one, but know little about what he has done with them.
I never said he was the god of M42's nor was I impressed with every single thing, but I don't quite see where you think he is so terribly overpriced in terms of the M42. Maybe he does do little to an M20 head, I know he does quite a bit for the M42 head but even then, I look at his motor as a complete package, not individual parts. Is he cheap, hell no but labor costs money these days.
You want to see overpriced go buy a B&M transmission.
In your mind what exactly constitutes extremely overpriced.
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You also have to look at the fact that when you do make that large investment, you are starting with a 0 mile engine that is built to take the abuse, while making this car as fast as it needs to be. With the craze of the 24v swap, people overlook the idea of purchasing an engine that was maintained by any number of people; who knows what kind of care these people put into maintenance. If you hop over to r3v it is common for people to spend upwards of $4k for a proper M50 swap. To me, the idea of having an engine with more power, with zero wear, and that is completely built to the hilt to rev to 8K , is just absolutely bitchin' in every way. I of course could never afford a $7500 engine, but to someone with that kind of money to spend, I can definitely see the value in it.
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You also have to look at the fact that when you do make that large investment, you are starting with a 0 mile engine that is built to take the abuse, while making this car as fast as it needs to be. With the craze of the 24v swap, people overlook the idea of purchasing an engine that was maintained by any number of people; who knows what kind of care these people put into maintenance. If you hop over to r3v it is common for people to spend upwards of $4k for a proper M50 swap. To me, the idea of having an engine with more power, with zero wear, and that is completely built to the hilt to rev to 8K , is just absolutely bitchin' in every way. I of course could never afford a $7500 engine, but to someone with that kind of money to spend, I can definitely see the value in it.
Maybe I misunderstood what you mentioned but...People are spending $4k on M50 swaps with proper rebuilds. I know because I've probably spent that much so far on my rebuild!
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Maybe I misunderstood what you mentioned but...People are spending $4k on M50 swaps with proper rebuilds. I know because I've probably spent that much so far on my rebuild!
Yes, but for most people it will take that much again to get it installed (or more).
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In your mind what exactly constitutes extremely overpriced.
$3k+ for a head thats 6 thou out of strait and none of the valves seat/sealed properly. The head looked to be surfaced on a belt sander and never checked, the bar rocked back and forth it was so high in the center. You know about engine building, so you can see why I have my opinions. Didn't want to blatantly say that up front cause thats bad business, I could careless how much he knows about the m42 if hes sending out stuff like that.
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$3k+ for a head thats 6 thou out of strait and none of the valves seat/sealed properly. The head looked to be surfaced on a belt sander and never checked, the bar rocked back and forth it was so high in the center. You know about engine building, so you can see why I have my opinions. Didn't want to blatantly say that up front cause thats bad business, I could careless how much he knows about the m42 if hes sending out stuff like that.
Hmm...
Almost no head would seal like that.
I can see why you would say it was crap, but to me, it sounds like someone screwed with that head or someone faked it or something. I have met several people with their 6 cylinders and all of them were happy as hell with everything. All were very strong running engines. A head like that would never make full power, and every one I have seen has definitely made the power MM claimed.
$3k?
Hmm, that is high. The M42 head is $1500, which is far better.
I am curious about that head you saw though. It does not make any sense.
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Sorry if I was coming off as a cock earlier, letting other things get to me and venting..
The head was fresh from MM, never installed on a block. I know the customer ended up not using it and its sitting in his garage, he ended up having Tinney build him a complete stroker m20 (3.0l I believe). I was a tech doing mostly r&d stuff for nearly 4years and just started getting into engine building the first of this year. Seeing lots of work from places I thought where good cause of the name they have built for themselves but sending out junk work while charging a premium. Big wow was the horrible Serdi valve seat cuts Ive been seeing, these things are big $$$ but people seem to think they run themselves and dont check things out before slapping it together. You made a good point, its hard to find machine shops that can do anything other than American junk, when you do they are pricey. Its really up to the person doing the work and how much they felt like putting into it on that specific job.
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Sorry if I was coming off as a cock earlier, letting other things get to me and venting..
The head was fresh from MM, never installed on a block. I know the customer ended up not using it and its sitting in his garage, he ended up having Tinney build him a complete stroker m20 (3.0l I believe). I was a tech doing mostly r&d stuff for nearly 4years and just started getting into engine building the first of this year. Seeing lots of work from places I thought where good cause of the name they have built for themselves but sending out junk work while charging a premium. Big wow was the horrible Serdi valve seat cuts Ive been seeing, these things are big $$$ but people seem to think they run themselves and dont check things out before slapping it together. You made a good point, its hard to find machine shops that can do anything other than American junk, when you do they are pricey. Its really up to the person doing the work and how much they felt like putting into it on that specific job.
Hmm, I am not sure if it was luck of the draw or what in that case. Far different than what I saw when I was there. If it were my head I would have been livid.
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Well, I've partially found my answer. Apparently some 1995 318i models used the M42 and MAF, which allows the engine to breathe better. As opposed to a M42 with AFM or a M44 with MAF. Anyone else aware of this peculiarity of the 1995 model year 318i? Still not sure on the decision of E30 318i or E36 318i.