M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => General Topics => Topic started by: RouteZeroDesign on April 17, 2008, 02:30:45 PM
-
I know I'm probably going to get abuse for this, posting it on an m42 forum and all that, but I'm considering swapping in an F20c from the honda s2000.
But before you guys hang me for even considering it, here are my reasons.
The F20c in standard form produces 240bhp, the m42 produces 140bhp.
Yes, it is possible to take the m42 up to 240 bhp but this undoubtedly expensive.
Looking at this from a purely financial perspective,the F20c would cost me €2000 plus €1000 for wiring, new mounts and various other things, whereas to build an m42 to similar sort of power, is more than likely going to cost much more than this.
Forgetting about money for a second.
If we had two e36s beside each other, both with 240bhp, one with an m42 and the other with an f20c, the one with the f20c is going to have a much smoother idle than the m42. The reason for this is the vtec system, which would allow me to have a smooth idle and decent torque low down while using the small cam journal, but a screamer of an engine while on the high cam.
Ive seen the video on youtube where the engine is too high for the engine bay, and subsequently the bonnet is open at the back, which for me is a HUGE problem.
I've contacted the owner of the car through my friend yuki in japan, and i have found out the reason for this and a possible solution.
Time constraints and being the first to do it, were huge factors.
Maybe im getting soft, wanting a reliable engine and a smooth idle, maybe its my undying desire for revs or maybe it was the s2k test drive i went on last night:D:D
Anyway, id like to hear your opinions on the matter.
PS: im still only CONSIDERING this, nothing is set in stone, but id like to explore all options for the engine before signing the dotted line.
-
what are you planning to do with this car?
i would chose the S14 it would be cheaper around that kind of power with few mods, and it'd keep the bmw pedigree.. and even there... if i was to swap an S-engine i would go with an S52
there is way more available help and info thats for sure
depends what you want
-
I am not really sure how it compares to an M42 - but the F20c is a very tall engine - you need to consider what it takes to install one.
My experience is from Super-7s - and comparing this engine to an engine like a Zetec - can't be done in a standard Lotus 7 like chassis - you need to build something that is taller, for sure. In theory, should be possible in an E30 engine bay - but you might have to pay attention to where the mounts will go and your ride height - if you plan on keeping the stock hood.
As I said, no real experience with it in this application - but definitely something you need to look into.
-
i would chose the S14 it would be cheaper around that kind of power with few mods, and it'd keep the bmw pedigree..
While I too would chose the S14 motor, it would NOT be cheaper... S14 long blocks sell for $4k+, and you'd still need the harness, and all other ancillaries. It also would still not idle as smoothly, but there are 800hp S14's out there (turbo'd to h#ll...)
[sniff] I miss my E30 M3... [/sniff]
-
The car is my daily driver, hence the need/desire for reliability and reasonable idle.
Swapping in an s14 has a few problems,
My car is an e36, so the s14's sump would hit my cross member. This could be solved with a custom sump or even a dry one.
The s14 is 2.3/2.5 liter, for track event categorization and insurance purposes id prefer to keep the car under 2 liters.
Im sure there is some regulations regarding converting OBD II cars to OBD I but i will have to find out.
It comes with the same sort of problems that the F20C does, but s14 are starting to get rare and expensive.
Good suggestion though, il keep it in mind.
S52 has lots of power, but also lots of weight. Im going to keep it inline 4, to cut down on weight and to improve handling.
With some tuning the F20c can reach 270+ bhp.....thats m3 territory, with allot less mass!
So the shortlist so far is
F20C
S42 ish
S14
Keep em coming guys
To spur conversation have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCo00asduEQ
-
rloewy
Your 100% correct, the F20c is a very tall engine, but not too much taller than the m42.
The reason the car in the video has the engine coming out of the bonnet is because it was easier to raise the bonnet than modifying the sump pan, and by the time they realized the engine was too tall, it was already in.
I think that fitting lowered mounts, would help lower the engine slightly.
And with some Work to the sump and possibly to the valve cover it should be able to fit.
Regarding the sump, it will either have to be modified and re-welded or else i will build a dry sump for it. I could buy the kit off Toda, but at over $9k its not worth it, when i can build my own for under a tenth of that.
-
Good luck finding an s42, and if you do, good luck finding parts to rebuild it every few months if it is a DD. An s14 is also not the best DD out there.
After saying that, go s50b32, they should be easy to find over there. 321hp, smooth 6cyl, Dual Vanos, and still BMW.
-
I didnt mean s42, thats why i said "s42 ish" as in, a highly modified m42....I probably should of clarified that.
I do have a source for s42 engines, but they are all extremely expensive due to their rarity. They can provide tuning information for the m42 though.
Your right though, a Full on S42 is light years away from a daily driver, and being a race engine it would require race interval rebuilds.
The m3 6 cylinder is a fantastic engine, but not for this project.
The e36 is quite heavy in comparison to the e30, my goal is to bring the weight down as far as possible
-
Personally I would start with an H22 because its easier to find and cheaper but I don't know what the market is like in Ireland. Obviously you would have to deal with adapter plate and what not.
EDIT: scratch that idea.
-
Nice to see you are going to stick with a 4 cylinder! How about Lancia Power?:D
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X-6SguDEwIg
I know it is a full race engine and would not be very streetable, but it would be absolutely astonishing on the street-the ultimate sleeper!!! Sorry this isn't really useful, but I love any 4 cylinder turbos. Maybe you could experiment with turbocharging the m42?
Something like this....?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9i_KSI8VvH0
700 hp:eek:
-
The F20C engine is a wonderful engine, very similar to the spirit of our lightweight E30 M42's. If you really want to make it happen I'm sure you could, but if you are looking for support here it's going to be hard to find. Mostly because we don't know what to do lol.
-
The F20C engine is a wonderful engine, very similar to the spirit of our lightweight E30 M42's. If you really want to make it happen I'm sure you could, but if you are looking for support here it's going to be hard to find. Mostly because we don't know what to do lol.
shpeak for yourself. there is lots of people on here who know what their doing.
-
Good luck finding an s42, and if you do, good luck finding parts to rebuild it every few months if it is a DD. An s14 is also not the best DD out there.
Here you go, only 8500€ :)
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=16398
-
this should be interesting, please keep us posted on your progress!
-
tjts1
The H22 is a fantastic motor, with allot of torque for a honda. But unfortunately the engine mounts are on the wrong side as its a transverse engine.
I like the way your thinking though, the more the merrier.
E30_4cyl
The lancia engine would be nice, but again its transverse.
Id love one of the old integrales, in white and on compomotive wheels :)
Have you seen the video of the twin charged integrale on a karting track?
A turbocharged m42, or turbocharged anything for that matter would be nice. But it runs into the problem of insurance and racing categorization.
For both road insurance and track racing, turbo charged cars are bumped up by 50% of their cc. Eg: a 2 liter turbocharged car is designated as a 3 liter class.
Also, i kinda prefer the 'Honesty' of NA power.
BrandC
The f20c did feel very similar in some ways, to the m42/m44.
It was always very willing, and almost encouraged you to rev the arse out of it. Maybe more so that the m42/m44, but similar none the less.
If I'm going to swap a new engine in, this is definitely a characteristic i want to retain.
As far as people on here not knowing about this stuff....
Your right, the F20C install into BMW is very rare. But there is a huge amount of knowledgeable members on this forum (some of whom have already posted in this thread) who should be able to help out with certain things.
I understand what you mean though, there is very little experience with this particular engine, but I'm sure it'll be okay..:)
Kowalski
I think he was just referring to lack of info on this particular engine, and not a lack of knowledge from the members of the forum...but thanks for defending anyway :)
BoyRacer
Yes, that was one of the places i was thinking of.
S42s are Soooo expensive when compared to the F20C, but i guess so would any racing engine be, when compared to a road engine.
Tim_s
Will do mate. A big part of my consideration of the F20c is based on advice you have given me before. Cheers again for your help.
Im going to ring traynors today (traynors.co.uk) to find out how much they charge for an F20C engine. They were very good delivering the engine for my old civic. And at €300 including the ecu and everything it was very cheap.
-
at this point why not the v8 from e92 M3? BMW says that is lighter than S54 and S52 (202 kg or 445 lb) ;)
only joking here!
just curious of what you'll do!
-
F20C on E36 sounds interesting and good idea, light engine with lots of power is always a good plan, no matter of origin :)
But if you want to be really different... Destroke M60B30 V8! :p
Yep, take the smallest BMW V8 and just manufacture new crankshaft and con rods. Keep bore at 84 mm but get stroke down from 67.6 mm to 45 mm and then you have 1995 cm3 displacement.
Better yet, get cylinder heads from M60B40 engine and then you have 35 mm intake valves and 25% more total valve area even compared to 3.2 liter M3 engine. And your engine has only 62% of displacement breathing through all that valve area...
That engine would have feck all torque but maaaaan it would scream at high revs! And by high I mean 12 000+ rpm :D
Hmmm. So you would need pneumatic valve train and quite robust pistons too, might get expensive... And oil pump and timing chain might need attention too.
But the power potential would be awesome :)
-
tjts1
The H22 is a fantastic motor, with allot of torque for a honda. But unfortunately the engine mounts are on the wrong side as its a transverse engine.
I like the way your thinking though, the more the merrier.
Yeah and it also rotates the wrong direction. it'll be hard to find a RWD transmission for it.
This is very different from the direction you are planning to go but still interesting.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=204185
-
Update: I tried to ring traynors about the engine but couldnt get through. I have sent them an email, so im now waiting to hear back from them.
Nuvolarossa
A v8 would be nice but only if i could find a really lightweight one, and one that revved sky high. Ive seen the v8 made out of two superbike engines, but it is very very expensive.
Ive considered the SR20DET/DE, but they are both extremely heavy.
450lb for a 4 cylinder is crazy....an ls1 v8 is lighter!!
Boyracer
It sounds like your building an F1 engine lol.
Yeah i would be nice to do, lightweight, small cc v8, itbs, siamesed exhaust...make it sound like a ferrari...no wait...bmw f1 car :)
Maybe in a 2002...il save that idea for a future project!
tjts1
It would be do-able, in theory...but very expensive to do in practice.
Thanks for the link...i <3 engine conversions!
Im currently reading articles on a 10,000 rpm s2000....SICK!!
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsrADnWFKU
The controversial F20 in the E36 (318iS) chassis. The folks at bf.c blasted the video. Personally, I think it's a great swap if you can pull it off.
I think the people who hated on the idea, failed to understand it was a 4cyl for 4cyl, and I don't think they have access to many BMW I6 motors over there. I never saw a single e30, e36, but maybe one or two e46's, when I went there last spring break for two weeks. Point being, it's probably rare and expensive to get their hands on it, while the F20 is quite popular there.
I just love the idea of 9k revs. They kept the stock dash, quite funny when he's pushing the car!
-
Theres also rotary pawahhH!!1
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/06/rotary-powered-bmw-e30-320i-fitted-with.html
LS1 pawahhh (not as heavy as it looks)
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=699289
SR20DET pawah
http://www.bimmersport.co.nz/forums/index.php?showtopic=11720&st=0&p=129704&#entry129704
Lots of good option out there. Its just a matter of time and money.
-
What do you think of the wankel? They are small, lightweight, rev even quicker and higher than the s2k motor. Since you have to stay under 2 liters, you could go up to three rotors, not sure how much work it would be to fab this up though. That should be around 350 hp with stock reliabilty. You would also then have the option of turbocharging, I bet it would be easy to get over 500hp. The only problem is you would have high fuel prices and eat oil. But they do sound great!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9675TKafw3g
-
batsbats
It may be controversial alright, and some may consider it blasphemous to put a japanese engine into a bmw, but if it were BMW making a 4 cyl engine with 240bhp...You can guarantee it would work the other way around.
Im not a slave to any brand, i do whats best for me and my enjoyment of the car.....as i think everyone else should do. Dont fit an inline 6 because some stranger on a forum slagged your 4banger, fit the engine that suits your needs, and your desires.
I used to be a member of bimmer forums, but the amount of abusive, arrogant and racist users on there, really puts a downer on the whole place.
Ive met some very nice members of there ( darkside m3 anyone?), but for every 1 nice person there are 100 A-holes.
9k+ Rpm REEEAALLLYY appeals to me, and it is something that would take allot of money and compromise to achieve with the m42.
tjts1
thanks for the suggestions :)
Il try share my views on each
The rotary/wankel...see bottom of this post
Ls1 v8- Nice engine, lots of torque but heavier than id like (though not that heavy)
also it doesn't rev to the astronomical levels that i desire...at least not without spending allot of money.
Sr20det- Fantastic engine with lots of turbo power, but at 450lbs it is extremely heavy.
Ever noticed that s13, s14 and s15s drift so easily? its because their weight balance puts allot of weight over the front wheels. Which leaves the rear end to act loose, but not carry too much inertia, so that slides are easy to catch.
E30_4cyl and tjts1
I would consider the rotary engine, its very light and can rev very high.
The only thing that wold put me off it is maintenance. The apex seals have a tendency to wear quickly if not looked after, and the engine requires a rebuild every few years. Not too bad in japan with loads of RE specialists, but in Europe (ireland especially) any company who does RE rebuilds are going to charge you through the nose for it.
-
Ford Duratech.
Before you dive into the S2000 or any other, take a look at the Duratec motor in a Focus. You can easily get lots more power and parts should be easy and cheap for it over there. The only part you may have trouble finding is the bell housing needed to mate it to a transmission (Ranger pickup). The Duratec is the same weight as an M42 and FAR cheaper than an S2000 engine. It even has a similar rev range to an m42 so the tach could probably be re-used or modded to work.
Right now, that is the only engine I would use in place of an M42.
Almost everything else is spendy or heavy.
-
What is the difference between the Duratec and the Zetec? I know that the Duratec is based on the Mazda design and replaced the Zetec - but is there somewhere I can see the specific design differences?
-
This place has some good basic info about each and the parts needed.
http://quad4rods.com/
Weber side draft Duratec anyone?
http://quad4rod.accountsupport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=29
Specs
-
Ive been talking about an F20C swap with friends since I bought my car a year ago. The easiest thing to do is to get an s2000 front clip or find one you can take everything off of, use the interior dash harness + cluster, and use an AEM ECU. The engine mounts and trans position are the only difficult parts, which really aren't all that difficult to a fabricator.
The way I look at it, a motor is a motor, if it makes reliable horsepower and has a 6speed attached... Why not use it? The technology has come a far way since the 'ol m42's and s14's were designed, it seems only logical to move in that direction.
-
The technology has come a far way since the 'ol m42's and s14's were designed, it seems only logical to move in that direction.
I disagree.
Yes, the S2000 motor and the Ford Duratec are great engines, but are they really that signifcantly better.
The S2k does not get that great of mileage, the Duratech does not even make the Hp per liter of an M42. I would bet with some work the M42 could make the same power per liter as a Honda motor. Febi's car comes pretty close and will still outpace it mileage-wise in an aerodynamic brick.
Most of what is done today was done well before the M42.
I would argue car technology has not changed much at all in the last 50 years. The only significant advancements being emissions and computers to help in design. Almost everything else was being done clear back into the 50's or was just slightly improving what was already there. We still get the same mileage, or less, in cars today as we did back into the 60's. You want to show me jumps show me an engine that makes significantly more power than we made in the 50's and gets 50mpg. The only real jump has been in emissions.
I have seen a 5000 pound 50's sedan delivery making 250hp from a 1978 Ford 400 V8 make 26mpg. You see any cars that big and heavy today making that sort of power and mileage? That engine was not even rebuilt and was running a carb.
-
The ford engine is decent, but im not really a huge fan. Parts for fords arent as common as you would think over here...we didnt even get the ranger lol
Japanese parts, on the other hand, are incredibly easy to get here....
Ireland is the largest importer per capita of japanese cars in the world!
Cream of sumyungguy!
When i buy it, i will buy the F20C engine complete with gearbox, driveshaft, ecu, clocks and wiring. If traynors want me to take it as a front clip then fine, but if it works out cheaper to get just the parts then il go for that.
Will it be possible to use the factory ecu? i dont mind replacing it with the Aem EMS but id prefer to wait and do that at a latter stage when im fitting the ITBs.
I have found two people that have transfered them into Ae86s. One is Ian G, off the driftworks forum which i use allot. The other is Eric OSullivan who takes part in the Prodrift championship here in Ireland...Hopefully il be able to gain some information through them.
The mounts shouldnt be too difficult, as the engine mounts are in a similar position to the m42's but i will have to modify them to get the engine to sit low enough.
The gearbox mount are also fine, as they attach inside the tranny tunnel, im not sure where the e36's mount are but they cant be too far away.
The gear linkage is also very handy, as the shifter bracket can be moved forward or backwards (with some modification of course)
After that the only two major stumbling blocks will be the wiring, and the exhaust manifold, which may interfere with the steering linkage (being a RHD car and all that)
Your right creamy, an engine is an engine.
I couldnt care less if the engine said 'Gayboys weekly' on the valve cover....if its going to get me 240bhp and reliability then why not?
One thing that shows how good the f20c is, is that the s14 boys are looking at the f20c's head to see how it flows....a testament to honda engineering.
-
I have respect for anyone willing to take on an engine conversion. Its a huge job one way or another. I'm not going to bad mouth any of them. You want to put a brigs and straton in there? Go for it. Looking at ebay.co.uk there was a complete S2k drive train for 2500 pounds. Seems like a lot of money but I don't think any other conversion is going to be any cheaper. Personally I would love to see an S2k powered E30. It might not be my first choice, but I wouldn't refuse a turn at the wheel. If you haven't driven an S2000 yet, please do. The 240hp peak sounds impressive but below 6000rpm its like driving any pedestrian Accord. There's just nothing there to make the engine feel special.
cheers
-
The ability to rev to 9000rpm sounds pretty F-in special to me!!
I've driven an S2000 several times. Two of the times i drove the were just test drives at the honda dealer. The other time was driving a J's Racing tuned S2000 belonged to the Tuning Factory....and that thing was incredible!!
What other engine comes from the factory with a rev limit at 9k rpm?
that makes 120bhp per liter in stock form?
and that is as reliable as your moms accord?
there is a reason it won spots in the world's top ten best engines...4 years in a row!
My point is, if i were to spend allot of money on my m44 i suppose i could get it up to 240bhp...with allot of effort.
Whereas with the F20c i have that power from stock, which i can build upon to bring it to even higher levels, way out of the reach of a road going m4x engine.
With the F20c im starting with a platform that is much easier to gain extra power, yet also retain some drivability.
Maybe we have different views of whats 'Special', im not going to speculate on your view so i can only give mine.
For me, a special engine is one that i can use to drive to the shops, drive into town and not have to worry about it.....and then when im feeling up to it, it can transform into howling 9000rpm screamer!
Id much prefer if it was a bmw engine that im swapping in, but there just isnt one available that gives the same sort of power along with reliabilty.
Thanks for the comment tjts1, its good to be able to express my opinions and get the words down on paper. And thank you for being nice about it.
Im almost glad that this conversion is somewhat controversial, conflict leads to progression and development.
As a designer there is nothing worse for us the mediocrity.
If i design something and you hate it, Fine, Tell me why?
Similarly, If i design something and you love it, equally fine, tell me why?
Its that middle ground beige existence of 'not bad', 'so so' and 'okay' that we fear the most.
And i can guarantee that if i had posted that i was swapping in a BMW i6, there wouldn't have been half as many views or posts in this thread.
Again, thank you all for sharing your views and opinions, it only pushes me more to achieve more :):):)
Paul
-
The ford engine is decent, but im not really a huge fan. Parts for fords arent as common as you would think over here...we didnt even get the ranger lol
Japanese parts, on the other hand, are incredibly easy to get here....
Ireland is the largest importer per capita of japanese cars in the world!
if its going to get me 240bhp and reliability then why not?
I know you do not get Rangers, but the part is not that difficult to source.
I am not saying the S2k is a bad choice, it is a great motor. It is just an expensive one considering the alternatives. You are lucky though if you can find an S2k for that much, here they get $3-$4k for a bare motor making for an expensive swap.
Seems like a lot of money but I don't think any other conversion is going to be any cheaper. Personally I would love to see an S2k powered E30.
cheers
It has been done once already.
Not sure about in the U.K. but here, there is far cheaper swaps than that.
-
Sorry Ranger, i didnt mean for it to come across as if i was dismissing that,
yeah im sure it would be possible to get the ranger gearbox but the japanese stuff is much more common. F
ords have sorta died down over here to an extent, people generally view them as a bland brand.
That was until ford started releasing decent cars to the european market, such as the new mondeo and the Ford GT. We can get the mustang, but its generally difficult to get them in as they're special order.
I never realized it would be $3-$4k for just the bare engine, i guess thats because there is a demand for that type of engine in the states whereas over here the market would be fairly small for engine swaps.
For example the D16 engine for my old civic, including the ecu, alternator, intake, airbox, starter etc...cost me €300 - about $400
For the S2000 stuff (F20C engine, gearbox, driveshaft, ecu, clocks and wiring)
Its going to cost me roughly €3000, which i think is a fairly good deal, when you compare it to the price of building a heavily modefied m42.
I just found the thread on honda tech of the guy with the f20c e30, looks very interesting.
Btw: im not in the Uk....im in ireland :):):)
-
Everyone seems to have opinion about S2000 torque and hp per liter :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8dl4faCpJE
-
Lol, thats one of the funniest videos ive seen in a long time :):):):)
The reason the s2000 engine is considered to lack torque is because it is an over-square.
An over-square engine is one that has a bore larger than it's stroke, typically producing an engine with lots of hp with high revs but not as much torque as an under-square of the same displacement.
An under-square engine is one with a stroke larger than it's bore, typically producing an engine with lots of torque with low revs but not as much horsepower as an over-square of the same displacement.
There are different levels of this, and the more you go one way or another, the more the effect takes place
Eg: An F1 engine is very much over-square, where it has a huge bore but a miniscule stroke. Leading to an engine that has high horsepower at extremely high revs, but not as much torque as an engine of the same displacement, that was less over-square or even under-square.
A square engine is an engine which the bore and the stroke match each other.
The K20a is a good example of this as it has 86 bore x 86 stroke.
This produces an engine that has an equal balance of revs, hp and torque.
I dont know the exact reasons behind all of this (im still learning :)) but it has something to do with piston velocity and the mechanical advantage of the piston forcing down on the crank journal.
Longer stroke = larger distance between crank center and journal center = longer lever = increased mechanical advantage of the piston forcing the crank down and around.
Yes, from the factory the F20c doesnt have a huge amount of torque, but there are millions of threads on s2ki or honda tech, describing ways in which to gain more torque.
Torque is cheap if you will :):)
Ps:if you dont get the reference at the end just ask :)
-
If your engine is limited by displacement, it is better to have large bore compared to stroke if you are after power. That's why I am bit apprehensive about stroking engines.
While long stroke engine might have more torque, in the end it cannot produce same kind of power as short stroke/large bore engine. It boils down to valve area which basically determines how much air engine can get. You generally can fit larger valves to large bore cylinder head then to small bore. Also, long stroke engine cannot rev as high because of larger piston speeds and hence accelerations.
In the end, if displacement is limited and you are looking for largest amount of power, I think you are better off with oversquare engine that you can rev the shite out off to generate power and then use optimal gearbox and differential ratios to put that power to road :)
-
Yeah, your right mate, great explanation.
Just clarifying, i have no intention of changing the bore or stroke of the f20c.
The characteristics of it are perfect for me.
I will be modifying it slightly but only over the course of a year or so.
I will be fitting a dry sump system while i fit the conversion.
This will allow me to fit the engine lower and clear the hood, along with increasing horsepower slightly.
I will also be fitting a new manifold, to help clear the steering linkage.
In the future i will be fitting lower tension rings onto the pistons and increase the vacuum in the crank case, this should give me a slight gain in horse power i hope.
After that i will be fitting Aem ems Ecu along with jenvey throttle bodies.
Along with some lightweight pulleys.
After that point it gets into the internals of the engine, infact il probably wait until this stage to fit the piston rings.
I will be fitting spoon cams, valves and valve springs.
And then i will blueprint the engine, to insure close tolerances.
This should hopefully lead to a very stout, but reliable engine :)
-
This thread needs more pictars
(http://images.importtuner.com/events/0705_impp_03z+2007_tokyo_auto_salon+bmw_engine.jpg)
I think it sits so high because they were afraid to cut into the oil pan.
-
Thanks for the photo, i havent been on import tuner in a while lol
Luckily ive done the occasional dry sump so that shouldnt be a problem.
The thing im worried about is the mount and the exhaust manifold..
The car above is a LHD so no problems on that one :)
-
Any documentation or write up of the experience of the e30 f20 swap?
-
Sounds like you are now sure about the s2k engine, that will definately be a great choice. When do you plan on starting the conversion? I look forward to seeing your build and results!
-
batsbats-
I have seen one e30 swap with an F20c, but that car was an rallycross car so the modifications were extreme.
Its definitely possible to do, and it might be easier in the e30 than e36 due to less wiring to be transfered over.
E30_4cyl-
Yeah i think im pretty certain on it now, i would re-list my reasons why but i think they have all been covered already.
I plan to take the car off the road at the start of the summer and work on it until mid august, when i will be taking the car (hopefully) to the nurburgring.
Im finished in college at the end of may, so i might take the car off the road then.
Il be able to work on it a good bit as i work nights, so the day willbe spent on the car.
The only things that will interupt it is holidays which will mess up the schedule.
Im going to San Francisco at the end of June, but i might use this time to pick up the Aem EMS or the the hondata ecu.
-
batsbats-
I have seen one e30 swap with an F20c, but that car was an rallycross car so the modifications were extreme.
Its definitely possible to do, and it might be easier in the e30 than e36 due to less wiring to be transfered over.
E30_4cyl-
Yeah i think im pretty certain on it now, i would re-list my reasons why but i think they have all been covered already.
I plan to take the car off the road at the start of the summer and work on it until mid august, when i will be taking the car (hopefully) to the nurburgring.
Im finished in college at the end of may, so i might take the car off the road then.
Il be able to work on it a good bit as i work nights, so the day willbe spent on the car.
The only things that will interupt it is holidays which will mess up the schedule.
Im going to San Francisco at the end of June, but i might use this time to pick up the Aem EMS or the the hondata ecu.
I'm interested how yours turns out. Any ballpark figure how much the ecu, engine, transmission will cost? Also I couldn't find the weight of the motor anywhere. Have any idea?
-
The price i've been quoted was €3000/$4600.
That includes
the F20C engine, 6-speed gearbox, driveshaft (even though i wont be using this), Ecu, clocks and engine wiring harness.
Three things that i could make money back on is from the clocks, driveshaft and ecu.
The clocks because im already making my own digital dash with built in data logger.
This is very basic at the moment, but the way im building it leaves room for expansion.
Such as accelerometer, reversing cameras, lap counter, gear indicator.
This is a work in progress, so hopefully it'll be ready on time.
The driveshaft because i might be able to trade the s2k drive shaft for a shorter one that will work with the e36.
The e36 uses a two piece driveshaft and a fixed point central linkage.
Il be using the rear half of the m3 driveshaft along with the m3 diff and propshafts,
but for the center section i will have to search around some more.
The ecu, i may try to trade this with the scrap yard for the ecu from the DC5 integra, that way i can send it to hondata to have it reflashed and the data logging facility activated.
The reason i need to get the hondata ecu, as opposed to the stock ecu, is because the stock ecu needs the immobilizer to function, but the hondata reflash allows you to dissable this, along with a whole host of other stuff :)
I possibly might delay the swap to later on in the year, it really depends on money tbo.
This no check book car, and the moment the shocks are shot so come coilovers are top of the list
-
did you ever swap it?
-
Holy thread resurrection.
-
Sorry to bump an old thread but it is one of the few discussions I've found on the subject. Has there been any forward movement on the f20c swap? I'm hoping to freshen up an e30 this season and potentially take on the f20c conversion next winter and would love to read up on other builds that have taken place.
-
Ha! Holy thread resurrection. I just learned of this forum and found this thread. I have successfully swapped a F20c motor and trans into my 91' 318is. I have been driving it daily for over a year, more than 20k since swap, I live in Ca. Smogged last week with flying colors. It was a big job, but I am very pleased with the outcome. Feel free to ask any questions, I can try and post pics too. This is my first post on this forum!
-
Post everything you have time for! Not that I would ever do this but it has to be pretty interesting.
-
Not sure where to begin....I will try and address some of the questions and concerns from reading the previous posts on this thread. From start to finish it took me 3 years. There was definitely a lot of time that I didn't work on it, sometimes months at a time and many times. My engine is the F20c. Mechanically it was pretty straight forward, I did have the oil pan notched to clear the cross member and steering rack so the engine would sit low to close the hood and for alignment of transmission and driveshaft etc. From the start I knew I needed to smog it in. Ca. So I am using the stock Honda ECM and wiring and all the Honda s2k emission components/modules. A big mystery was how to manage the fuel tank pressure for emission purposes so it wouldn't throw a ck engine code, luckily BMW must have known they would need to do this in the near future as the e30 had all the vacuum lines and fitting to easily tap into. This may not sound like a big deal but to me and trying to smog it and be legal in ca this was huge. Motor mounts and trans mounts were easy and straight forward, I used the Honda radiator, had a hydraulic line made for the clutch with a BMW fitting on one end and Honda on the other, done. Easy to bring fuel to the motor too. Absolutely no mods to the bmw throttle cable to connect to the S2k motor.Plenty of room and clearance exhaust wise. I struggled with the drive shaft for a bit after it was on the road. At first I just put the front slip joint of the Honda shaft onto the otherwise complete BMW 2 piece shaft, that also has the slip joint in the middle, so I had 2 slip joints and a 2 piece shaft. Kept having vibration and clearance problems, I finally found that a one piece shaft with tha Honda slip joint in front and of all things I used a Toyota Tacoma joint at the rear to bolt to the BMW rear flange, same exact pattern. Now it is robust and smooth at all speeds and loads. Obviously using the s2k 6 speed trans which is an absolute gem of a transmission. I also am using the digital instrument cluster and push button start from the s2k. With out a doubt the most difficult part for me was the wiring. I am no expert at any of this especially wiring. This is why it took so long to complete. The 2 different era's of cars, 2 different mfg'ers, 2 different origins. I wanted it to be clean and finished in a way that everything appears stock and clean and reliable. Not sure how much lighter the Honda engine and trans are, I'm guessing between 100-150lbs. I have been driving it for over a year as a daily driver and put over 20k on the swap (knock on wood), all trouble free other than sorting out the driveshaft. All and all the car drives and performs amazing, everything I hoped it would be. It drives like a kitten when you want it go be and when you put your foot in it, it comes alive like no car I've ever had. This is my first BMW and I fell in love with it and just wanted more power and one thing led to another. I avg 25-27 mpg the same as with the m42, I have gotten over 30 mpg on longer trips. I don't know exactly what my car weighs but I know it is several hundred pounds lighter than a s2k. I am thinking it may have a 1-10 lb/hp. I'm sure there is a lot I left out. Bottom line, I love the e30 handling, practicality and looks. Seats 5 if needed and is a sleeper. But it was a lot of work. Feel free to ask any questions. I can try and post some pics later. For now you can search on you tube "318is s2000" it is a totally funny video because it is literally the first time I drive the car and the emotions were pretty high. Thanks
-
Holy crap, thanks for the information dump! It's going to take a while to digest. But please stick around!
-
Here are a few pics.
-
And the cluster...
-
Hey there, just stumbled across this thread, I have to say, I am impressed! I have been, fo the last few weeks, thinking about trying a chevy 4.3l vortec swap into an E36, but now, I am a convert. Is there any way I could pick your brain for even deeper details, maybe more pictures, anything that would help a copycat (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery) do exactly this for themselves? I really appreciate it!
-
Willcomsto, yes I would be glad to chat with you. Is there a secure way you can contact me through this forum?
-
I think I just figured it out, sent you a message. Thank you
-
Hi there! Can you post pics of the engine and gearbox mounts? And the driveshaft arragment?
Thanks for the help, thats my dream swap right there!
-
Tonibmwportugal, it might be awhile til' I'm under the car again. The motor mounts were very slightly modified off the mounting perches, still using BMW motor mounts. The trans mount was also very easy and simple, I used a 1/4"X1 1/2" flat bar and put 2 bends in it and a hole on each end and using Honda s2k trans mounts. And driveshaft as described above was a challenge, but it's been working flawless for quite sometime. It is also buried behind the heat shielding currently. I will try and post some pics though. Feel free to ask any other questions you might have.