M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: josephb983 on March 06, 2008, 06:27:37 PM
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Hi everyone. I just discovered this forum today, looking for an M42 club. :)
In mid July I purchased a BMW 318is for $1k, one owner, approx 200k miles. When I purchased the car it had 2 bad front wheel bearings, leaking rack and pinion, disfunctional parking brake, and a bad center support bearing. A few days ago I finally finished with fixing these known issues and changed the oil/filter using 5w30 Mobile 1 fully synthetic, and started driving the car as my daily driver.
Last night when I started my car up outside it was -5 degrees out, and had been sitting in the cold wind at an airport. When I started the car I heard a loud sound coming from the engine. This sound exactly followed the engine RPM. I stumbled on a video on the internet of a car making a similar sound, except the owner didn't rev the engine to show that the sound follows the engine RPM.
http://www.ecn.net.au/~udha/videos/engine-ticking.mov (http://www.ecn.net.au/%7Eudha/videos/engine-ticking.mov)
On my car when I revved the engine the sound stayed the same volume, but the noise RPM increased exactly with the engine. You can notice in the first 5 seconds of the video above that that car also had the sound follow the engine RPM, when the engine raced for a moment on startup.
The sound is so distinct in the video above, I hope someone recognizes it conclusively. I'm going to try to shoot video of my car tonight when it gets cold, and see if it does it again.
Any ideas on what might be causing this sound? Is it bad to run it sounding like this?
Thanks,
Joseph
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I've got video of the noise, though it is not as loud today since it is warmer. The other night it sounded more like the first video. Any thoughts?
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/th_MVI_6899.jpg) (http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=MVI_6899.flv)
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sounds like you need some new hydrolifters... when they are worn the engine sounds like a diesel. usually the noise disappears when the oil is warm or the outside temperatur increases. i did have the same noise, then i replaced the lifters and now the engine sounds like new..
BUT when it is too cold it can make almost the same noises, because the oil cant circulate properly through the hydros.
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I would guess lifters as well, definitely sounds like a diesel. I'd pull the VC and turn the engine over by hand to watch oil flowing through your lifters. I'd also check/replace your chain tensioner. It is also hydraulic, and mine started to give a whirling sound this Chicago winter when cold. I guess it could be severe chain slap? Mine was more of a whirl. Check your timing gears, mine need replacement at 78k. I also use lighter weight oil in the winter, it helps a lot with cold starts in the severe cold.
Luckily, I've put a total of a 100 miles tops on my car this winter, and that was mostly to my buddies heated garage to work on some stuff =) They salt like crazy here, and I train commute. For the most part, I have a healthy low mileage engine with great compression. It still hates the severe cold starts, and get's a bit loud 15F or colder. I think when I get my timing chain replaced, it will smooth out a bit and a new tensioner helped a ton with noise last time I started it ~10F. I haven't driven much on the new tensioner due to the scary look of my cam sprockets! Moving at the end of the month is setting me back financially on getting the parts I need to put it back into my comfort zone to hit the upper revs...
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Remove valve cover, inspect timing chain, replace chain tensioner, drop lower oil pan and check for bolts.
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Sounds exactly like the problem I had before the side of my block blew. I had light piston slap and it finally took its toll and blew a hole the size of my fist in the side of the block last weekend. I lost a piston and a rod and there was a lot of broken metal laying in the engine bay. If I were you I would watch this very carefully and I highly recommend not beating the car up while it is doing this.
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Sounds to me like a bad timing chain tensioner.
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Thanks for all the kind replies guys. I'm going to replace the timing chain tensioner, and report back.
Good idea tjts1, I might want to check for debris in the oil pan. If there is, it will probably be time for an engine swap.
swiss318is, how much did it run to replace the lifters?
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Around 17 bucks a pop. Try Pelicanparts.com
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whoa! Mine sounded like that years ago . Fortunatly for me it was the Timing chain tensioner. Good Luck with that. Man! that could be the oil pump or the chain.
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My first guess was HLA's, but that sounds more like a knocking sound as opposed to the clicking of HLAs that are not pumping up. The rhytm sounds wrong for HLAs as well.
I'm going to go with the timing chain tensioner either froze in an extended position and the chain is dragging and knocking through the guides or it is something else. Find out exactly what part of the engine it is coming from. Take a long screwdriver and rest the metal tip on the engine block and head in different areas and the handle onto your ear and see if you can tell exactly where it is coming from. Timing case? front block? Rear valve cover? etc
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that to me sounds like a loose chain. just change the tensioner and see what happens. I would take off the valve cover, and top timing case (replace the gasket) and see if there is anything broken inside. Also check out your valvetrain.
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I've also used a long screwdriver method to locate engine noises. Still the timing chain tensioner eluded me.
The noise is in so many different places. It actually sounded the loudest in the middle of the valve cover.
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Replacement of the tensioner did not effect the noise. What next?
How do I turn the engine over by hand, and what will I be watching for on the lifters?
Pictures with the valve cover off:
Timing Gears (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/IMG_6933.jpg)
Timing Chain (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/IMG_6944.jpg)
Engine without Valve Cover (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/IMG_6936-adjusted.jpg)
Underside of Valve Cover (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/IMG_6963.jpg)
Does it look like my timing setup needs to be replaced?
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Longer video of noise (shot before replacing tensioner).
[URL=http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=64ebbcbe.flv](http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/th_64ebbcbe.jpg) (http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=MVI_6899.flv)
[/URL]
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Your gears are shot. They shouldn't be pointy at all.
So you'll want to replace the chain, gears, sprockets and rails..
Water pump, thermostat and seals if you havent already..
Thats a 450ish dollar parts bill right there. And whats that ''milky'' looking residue on your valve cover? Have you checked your dipstick for that same thing? You might have a cracked head or bad head gasket. :/
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You know.. Mine sounds like that but perhaps a bit louder and with more "clacking".
I replaced my oil, oil filter, spark plugs, VC gasket, and timing chain tensioner. Although my gears looked like new.. Do the 93 versions of the M42 have the same oil pan bolt issues though? I don't have a lower or upper it's just the pan.
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thats scary cause i have a similar sound. just not as loud.. i dont want to go through a 600$ engine job, i'd rather put that money on a stroker i will start working on soon
if the sprockets are pointy and i only replace the tensioner would the engine last another few thousand kms?
(the car has 155k km / 96k miles on the odo)
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Your gears are shot. They shouldn't be pointy at all.
So you'll want to replace the chain, gears, sprockets and rails..
Water pump, thermostat and seals if you havent already..
Thats a 450ish dollar parts bill right there. And whats that ''milky'' looking residue on your valve cover? Have you checked your dipstick for that same thing? You might have a cracked head or bad head gasket. :/
If they are pointy, does that mean they must be replaced? What do the points cause? Or is it a sign of bigger problems?
My oil is good, nothing milky in it at all. Maybe this engine had a head gasket go at one point?
What else should I be checking?
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I would guess lifters as well, definitely sounds like a diesel. I'd pull the VC and turn the engine over by hand to watch oil flowing through your lifters. I'd also check/replace your chain tensioner. It is also hydraulic, and mine started to give a whirling sound this Chicago winter when cold. I guess it could be severe chain slap? Mine was more of a whirl. Check your timing gears, mine need replacement at 78k. I also use lighter weight oil in the winter, it helps a lot with cold starts in the severe cold.
Luckily, I've put a total of a 100 miles tops on my car this winter, and that was mostly to my buddies heated garage to work on some stuff =) They salt like crazy here, and I train commute. For the most part, I have a healthy low mileage engine with great compression. It still hates the severe cold starts, and get's a bit loud 15F or colder. I think when I get my timing chain replaced, it will smooth out a bit and a new tensioner helped a ton with noise last time I started it ~10F. I haven't driven much on the new tensioner due to the scary look of my cam sprockets! Moving at the end of the month is setting me back financially on getting the parts I need to put it back into my comfort zone to hit the upper revs...
I figured out how to turn the engine over. What should I look for on the lifters?
How much do lifters cost, if mine are bad?
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If they are pointy, does that mean they must be replaced? What do the points cause? Or is it a sign of bigger problems?
My oil is good, nothing milky in it at all. Maybe this engine had a head gasket go at one point?
What else should I be checking?
Yes, pointy is BAD. They should have a flat tip.
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I figured out how to turn the engine over. What should I look for on the lifters?
How much do lifters cost, if mine are bad?
from above:
Around 17 bucks a pop. Try Pelicanparts.com
would it be worth it to go with vw solid lifters, or does that only have a benefit when used in a fully built head?
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I have a full set of lifters from my head that was cracked that i'll part with for cheap.
PM me if you are interested. 130K on them and were working perfectly when taken apart. Not sure what your goal is with your rebuild though...
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Update:
I found chunks of chain rollers in the oil pan. The timing chain has no damaged rollers. What could these chunks be from?
Picture of chunks:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/d2165581.jpg
.
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I figured out how to turn the engine over. What should I look for on the lifters?
Anyone?
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Those certainly look like the bearings of the timing chain. You examined the entire chain and there are no missing rollers on every link?
It could be that the timing chain was changed previously and these are remnants of it that have been chilling out.
As for the lifters, from what i know, you have to remove the cams, take off the cam housing and take the lifters out. Clean them up and see if they can be easily depressed. If they can be compressed by hand then they probably don't hold pressure. From the sound in the videos i don't think it's an HLA problem.
If the cam gears are worn out like that then the chain guide rails probably look bad too. There are several plastic lined guides that start to disintegrate over time and could have lost some chunks recently or something got lodged and the chain is rubbing on it.
There is also a small idler wheel along the chain that is supposed to freewheel. It may be the culprit. Maybe it froze up and is dying a horribly loud death? It's under the lower timing cover.
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Sorry, haven't been on the forums for a few days to try to answer your lifter question. I see that it was answered in the other thread. I really think your problem lies more in the timing components. You can find detailed instructions on this job in the E36 service manual available on this site in PDF form. Pretty straightforward, but a big job nonetheless.
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You examined the entire chain and there are no missing rollers on every link?
It could be that the timing chain was changed previously and these are remnants of it that have been chilling out.
Yes, examined every link. They may have been in the pan since a previous timing chain.
There is also a small idler wheel along the chain that is supposed to freewheel. It may be the culprit. Maybe it froze up and is dying a horribly loud death? It's under the lower timing cover.
I may want to pull the lower cover, and see if any teeth are missing from the other gears. I was looking at these on realoem, on the diagram for the timing setup.
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Yes, examined every link. They may have been in the pan since a previous timing chain.
I may want to pull the lower cover, and see if any teeth are missing from the other gears. I was looking at these on realoem, on the diagram for the timing setup.
I'm in the process of pulling my head off because I can't figure to safe my life what's making my noise. I'm still working on that crank bolt :/
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Ok, I shot a couple more videos, with the engine warmed up. I had just driven it on the highway for 20 miles or so. These are my first videos since replacing the tensioner. I did not put the cooling fan back on yet, so these videos were shot w/o the cooling fan.
Made at night, so no visuals. This was shot from directly over the engine, with the hood up:
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/th_MVI_7041.jpg) (http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=MVI_7041.flv)
The video below was made after the one above. The engine sounded slightly smoother,as it had become a bit hot from the revving I think.
Video of tach, with window open and hood up:
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/th_MVI_7043.jpg) (http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=MVI_7043.flv)
These noises get louder when the engine is cold, like in the first videos I made. Notice that they seem tied to certain RPMs, and that they get worse at lower rpms it seems.
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I just ran the video of the cold engine next to the video of the warmed up engine, and it helped me pinpoint the noises. I still don't know for sure what is causing them though.
Cold:
http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=MVI_6899.flv
Warmed up:
http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/?action=view¤t=MVI_7041.flv
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cold vs warm would tell me it could be related to oil temps.
louder at certain rpm ranges indicates something that is rattling or loose. The frequency of the rattling object (chain slapping?) will match up with the frequency of the engine only at certain speeds.
Still sounds like chain issue to me.
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Remove your upper & lower timing covers, take some photos of the timing assembly and post on here. This may seem like a dumb idea but you never no - maybe you should check the actual engine timing as well. Could the engine be out of timing slightly causing a diesel type engine noise. I don't think this is the problem however might be worth a go.
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Remove your upper & lower timing covers, take some photos of the timing assembly and post on here. This may seem like a dumb idea but you never no - maybe you should check the actual engine timing as well. Could the engine be out of timing slightly causing a diesel type engine noise. I don't think this is the problem however might be worth a go.
Can M42's get out of timing? I thought it did it automatically.
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I don't mean the ignition timing (this is ECU controlled), i mean the actual camshaft timing. When you rotate the crank to TDC for cyl 1, do the cam gears line up at TDC as well?
Could the timing chain be a tooth out maybe?
Also, if you remove your timing covers, you can have a look for any broken or damaged components. I would just do the entire timing chain assembly. I seen a 92 Mercedes SL500 with a chain that broke. It got caught under one of the guides and then seized the motor. $$$$$ damage. Cars are funny things, and anything can happen.
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When you pulled the chunks out of the oil pan, was there anything blocking the pickup?
Timing *looks* to be okay from the gear picts.
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What do your plugs look like?
check connections on your plug wires too. far fetched but I'm wondering if it could be a weak spark or a cylinder missing.
It really sounds like something mechanical though. The timing gears look to be in the right "centered" position too.
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When you pulled the chunks out of the oil pan, was there anything blocking the pickup?
Timing *looks* to be okay from the gear picts.
There was a bolt in the pan, from the upper pan. I screwed it back where it belonged. It didn't improve the noise though.
How oil pan looked:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj142/josephb983/1437546b.jpg
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What do your plugs look like?
check connections on your plug wires too. far fetched but I'm wondering if it could be a weak spark or a cylinder missing.
It really sounds like something mechanical though. The timing gears look to be in the right "centered" position too.
Wouldn't a weak spark plug cause rough idle? The idle is very uniform, just it is loud like a diesel.
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It's definitely a metallic sound, so I wouldn't guess it has anything to do with the spark plugs.
Have you checked all of the guides? You gotta pull the whole timing cover to see them all.
It almost sounds like the chain is riding on something metal.
And if there are bits of what appear to be old chain in the pan, I'm guessing the previous owner either broke a chain or something else in the valve train. Which makes me suspicious of the condition of the valves and everything else. Why someone would not take the time to drop the lower pan after a chain disintegrated, I have no idea. Worries me that's all I'm saying.
Hate to say it, but it sounds like something bad...almost like a bent valve. Do a quick compression test.
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I just picture a chain when I listen to those vids. It sounds bumpy, like a chain, if that makes sense. But that's listening to a video over the intra-webs.
The previous poster speaks wisdom. Do a compression test, then do the steps to get your timing covers off. Post pics when you do ;)