M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Suspension => Topic started by: quinn11m20 on March 04, 2008, 04:46:00 PM
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Hey can anyone tell me how to fix the play in my rack.
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Inspect inner and outer tie rods and control arm bushings. Easy test is to lift one wheel off the ground and try to shake it by grabbing it at 3 and 9 o'clock positions. Go from there. good luck
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well i think the play is in the rack itself not my control arm bushings. I have inspected them and replaced the control arms on or about 3 years ago. this play is definatly in the rack. what I need to know is there a way to tighten the gears in the rack itself. anyone?
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Might be a good time to upgrade to an E36 rack. I would still remove the rubber boots off the rack and inspect the inner tie rods. You might be surprised. Did you replace the lollipop bushings with the controls arms?
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Might be a good time to upgrade to an E36 rack. I would still remove the rubber boots off the rack and inspect the inner tie rods. You might be surprised. Did you replace the lollipop bushings with the controls arms?
x2
An E36 rack will cost ya around $145 shipped and will have a much better ratio.
My rack has ZERO play in it.
Also, you mentioned that you replaced them 3 years ago...depending on how much you travel, that may actually add up to a lot mileage!
Who knows, maybe the things you replaced 3 years ago are due for replacement.
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Might be a good time to upgrade to an E36 rack.
i'm looking for a better ratio as well;
does any e36 rack will fit bolt on?
i have to part out a 318i 1992 4 doors
do i just use the e36 rack with e30 or 36 tie rods? is it all the same?
for the record, i will run it without powersteering
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i'm looking for a better ratio as well;
does any e36 rack will fit bolt on?
i have to part out a 318i 1992 4 doors
do i just use the e36 rack with e30 or 36 tie rods? is it all the same?
for the record, i will run it without powersteering
Yup. Heres a good writeup on the subject.
http://www.rmeuropean.com/bmw-steering-rack.html
And another one but most of the info about the knuckles does not apply to our cars.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=66247
There is some complication with angle of the steering shaft at the firewall (see first link) but otherwise its a direct swap in our airbag cars. The E36 tie rods look different but you can use them on the E30 no problem. All E36 cars have 3.2 turns end to end, 95 E36 M3 has 3 turns and Z3 has 2.7 turns. But all three racks use the same steering ratio (15.6:1) with slightly different bump stops. Even a basic E36 rack will be a vast improvement over the stock E30 rack with 4.1 turns (20.5:1 steering ratio).
I just picked up an E36 rack off a 94 318i for $40 at the JY. Can't wait to install it. I'm also running no PS.
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If I was any of you guys I was gonna keep my eye on THIS (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=024&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=370027857859&rd=1) rack. This is the second listing for this rack and last time no one bought it for the same price. Too bad my car is so far away...if it wasn't this was gonna be my rack for sure!
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Thanks guys the info is great. I think I am gonna purchase a new rack and go from there. I thought maybe downgrading to a manual for a more sportier feel. Any thoughts?
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Thanks guys the info is great. I think I am gonna purchase a new rack and go from there. I thought maybe downgrading to a manual for a more sportier feel. Any thoughts?
if by manual you're saying no powersteering, i say oh yeah!
i've been driving without powersteering for about 2 months, and would not want to put it back, no PS makes you more involved in the driving experience
i just removed the belt to get the feel and cause my pump was leaking. i will seal the PS rails on the e36 rack with screws when i install it
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Yup. Heres a good writeup on the subject.
http://www.rmeuropean.com/bmw-steering-rack.html
And another one but most of the info about the knuckles does not apply to our cars.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=66247
I just picked up an E36 rack off a 94 318i for $40 at the JY. Can't wait to install it. I'm also running no PS.
thanks tjts1 for your info! i have a non-airbag e30 so i guess i wont have to mess with the firewall. although it seems a little sketchy to shorten the knuckle. i will study the case, and please, if you swap yours first, could you do a write-up for us?
cheers!
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anybody now of any local shops in the bay area (south bay) that rebuild steering racks? or has anybody ever bought the seal kit and rebuilt? or is it a better idea to do the e36 upgrade? my car is a 91 318is.
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I'd just do the e36 upgrade. I picked up a (leaky) rack for $60 and put new tie rods on it. It was fairly easy to do, and since I am not running power steering, it doesn't leak much anymore. As far as a seal kit, BMP design has one for the e36, but I havn't ever seen one for the e30.
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If I was any of you guys I was gonna keep my eye on THIS (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=024&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=370027857859&rd=1) rack. This is the second listing for this rack and last time no one bought it for the same price. Too bad my car is so far away...if it wasn't this was gonna be my rack for sure!
I pounced on this rack immediately. Added it to my list of Spring projects.
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I'd just do the e36 upgrade. I picked up a (leaky) rack for $60 and put new tie rods on it. It was fairly easy to do, and since I am not running power steering, it doesn't leak much anymore. As far as a seal kit, BMP design has one for the e36, but I havn't ever seen one for the e30.
How long did the swap take you? Did you run into any surprises? I'm about to take on this project this weekend
thanks
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The swap took maybe 4 hours, including installing new tie rods and dissasembling most of the two racks. There weren't really any surprises, but make sure you have a few grinding wheels for a dremel tool. You will need to cut away a bit of the lower inside corner of the hole that the steering shaft goes through. This is easy enough, but I still havn't found a way to put the seal back on there. I think I am just going to epoxy a piece of sheet metal to the firewall with a hole to mount the seal. Right now, the seal is on the shaft but not doing any sealing. It doesn't really cause a problem and I have driven in rain with no problems. Also, you will need a variety of washers to use as spacers above the rack and below the upper part of the mount. If you have read the DIY's and have any mechanical skill, you should be fine.
BTW I would use the e30 PS filter hoses (the filter/reservoir pieces are interchangeable) and the e30 high-pressure line. The HP line needs to be bent to clear the u-joint, but the others are fine. Make sure they aren't thouching anything or vibrations will destroy the lines
Tie rods-if you want to use e30 tie rods, you need e36 lock plates. These are cheap and must be replaced.
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Also, you will need a variety of washers to use as spacers above the rack and below the upper part of the mount. If you have read the DIY's and have any mechanical skill, you should be fine.
Excellent info, thanks. After reading all the writeups on the subject, I was thinking of sticking all the shims below the rack in order to avoid some of the grinding at the steering shaft. I remember reading in one of the r3v threads. This supposedly eliminates the need for any grinding. We'll see. I still haven't done it yet. Maybe next weekend.
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The swap took maybe 4 hours, including installing new tie rods and dissasembling most of the two racks. There weren't really any surprises, but make sure you have a few grinding wheels for a dremel tool. You will need to cut away a bit of the lower inside corner of the hole that the steering shaft goes through. This is easy enough, but I still havn't found a way to put the seal back on there. I think I am just going to epoxy a piece of sheet metal to the firewall with a hole to mount the seal. Right now, the seal is on the shaft but not doing any sealing. It doesn't really cause a problem and I have driven in rain with no problems. Also, you will need a variety of washers to use as spacers above the rack and below the upper part of the mount. If you have read the DIY's and have any mechanical skill, you should be fine.
BTW I would use the e30 PS filter hoses (the filter/reservoir pieces are interchangeable) and the e30 high-pressure line. The HP line needs to be bent to clear the u-joint, but the others are fine. Make sure they aren't thouching anything or vibrations will destroy the lines
Tie rods-if you want to use e30 tie rods, you need e36 lock plates. These are cheap and must be replaced.
I would opt for the E36 inner and outer tie rods...they look much beefier.
Otherwise, Gearhead pretty much summed it up!
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Excellent info, thanks. After reading all the writeups on the subject, I was thinking of sticking all the shims below the rack in order to avoid some of the grinding at the steering shaft. I remember reading in one of the r3v threads. This supposedly eliminates the need for any grinding. We'll see. I still haven't done it yet. Maybe next weekend.
This is true, but it also screws up your bump-steer. Basically, the different geometry causes a toe change depending on suspension compression. Moving the whole rack up would cause more toe-in the more the suspension compresses. This can cause increased tire wear and erratic handling in bumpy corners, fast or otherwise. I suppose this change isn't too large, so it may not be too severe.
There is one other problem with putting the shims under the rack. The shafts that the clamps go around all have notches in them to allow the bolt to pass through without damaging the splines. Moving the rack up will essentially shorten the chaft, so the notches may not line up. If you really want to do this, you could probably mark where the slot needs to be and use the hole in the clamp as a guide to drill through. This might make more sense once you take it apart.
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Here's my write up on the conversion;)
http://www.e30owners.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=2812
And probably abit far to ship but it will give ye an idea of whats needed anyway:)
http://www.e30owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3105
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So you have used PS E36 racks with non PS e30's. Which way you have closed the piping in E36 rack? Or have you filled the power steering piping with some liquid?
I have a non power steering E30 and planning to change the rack to E36 rack which is with PS. Can I just close the PS piping and attach it to my E30?
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thats it
but dont fill it with fluid. it will create pressure, you might now even be able to steer well. just put a small amount of fluid so it s tays lubricated, then steer lock to lock to make sure all the excess is gone before sealing the rack with appropriate screws
i haven't done it yet and i forgot which screws are needed. dont know if its the same for e30 and e36 racks
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Ok and just to make it clear (for myself), does the E36 tie rods fits "bolt on" to the E30?
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The e36 tie rods will work, but you need new lock plates. I don't know if the e36 rods will work with the e30 rack, but I can check as I have spares of both in the basement. For the e36 rack, you need e36 lock plates, regardless of the tie rods.
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The e36 tie rods will work, but you need new lock plates. I don't know if the e36 rods will work with the e30 rack, but I can check as I have spares of both in the basement. For the e36 rack, you need e36 lock plates, regardless of the tie rods.
What is a lock plate? Since I'm going to put E36 rack into E30, I will need those lock plates? Can you point the part number from ETK?
Edit: is it part nro 4? http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BE51&mospid=47425&btnr=32_0630&hg=32&fg=25
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The e36 tie rods will work, but you need new lock plates. I don't know if the e36 rods will work with the e30 rack, but I can check as I have spares of both in the basement. For the e36 rack, you need e36 lock plates, regardless of the tie rods.
Yup, I'm running E36 inner and outer rods...
Just bought new ones with new lock plates :)
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I have a non power steering E30 and planning to change the rack to E36 rack which is with PS./QUOTE]
Does your rack look like this? http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/keflaman/CIMG0239.jpg
I ran into a problem with the lower steering link and will have to figure out how to modify it since mine looks like none of the others I've seen in any of the write-ups.:confused:
In fact, my steering rack doesn't seem to show up in any of the parts catalogs either.
And lock-to-lock is ~4.75!!!!
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It seems that you have non power steering rack? I can picture of mine and upload it here.
Again, what is a lock plate?
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What is a lock plate? Since I'm going to put E36 rack into E30, I will need those lock plates? Can you point the part number from ETK?
Edit: is it part nro 4? http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BE51&mospid=47425&btnr=32_0630&hg=32&fg=25
Yes it is. Go to Bavarian and plug in the part # 32111140464. A nice little picture will come up on your screen and show you in better detail.
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The lock plate looks like a brass washer. On the e36 it is keyed into the rack shaft. The edge of the lock plate is bent over by a hammer or punch and acts as a grush washer as well. If the tierod becomes loose, the lockplate prevents it from spinning.
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One stupid question: If I'm using E36 rack and inner and outer tie rods, why would I need to obtain E36's lock plates since (to my understanding) are already installed to the package? I getting a complete E36 rack with tie rods.
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Because it's a better idea to use new ones if you are installing new inner rods on the rack:)
If your rack is all assembeld, there will be no need obviously.
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I started the conversion yesterday only to run out of parts and stamina for the 90 degree heat. So far I have the old rack out and the E36 rack is being positioned into place but not bolted in yet. I realized that I need new outer tie rods before I can finish. The coupling between the rack and the steering shaft its completely compatible. I haven't done any cutting on the firewall yet. I think I've found a way around it. More info on that later. The easy way to remove and install the rack without bending the 2 lower tabs is to unbolt the engine mounts from the cross member, unlatch the airbox and jack up the engine about 2 inches.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/2412993860_5094d27875_o.jpg)
I'm using manual steering to i capped off the lines (no loop) by reinstalling the banjo bolts with a 1/2" piece of hose on the shaft.
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Finally had a chance to finish the rack swap tonight. Pics and stuff here.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpost.php?p=1039419&postcount=235
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So did you put the black plate back in place with the rubber boot or did you just forgo the whole thing?
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I never removed the boot. Just took the plate out. The boot is still there.
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I just bought the E36 steering rack. However, I read that the swap is not that straight forward with EURO spec cars, meaning that conversion needs more severe modifications to get it work.
Have any one done same modification to EURO spec car as it has been explained here?
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...I read that the swap is not that straight forward with EURO spec cars, meaning that conversion needs more severe modifications to get it work.
Have any one done same modification to EURO spec car as it has been explained here?
Frankie,
I started the mod only to find out the steering joint on mine is totally different than anything I've seen in the ETK or elsewhere. I posted pictures earlier, so look at them again and see if you have the same thing.
I test-fitted the rack and everything fit perfectly. I don't know what "severe modifications" you read about because I didn't need to lift the motor or bend the tabs to remove and replace the rack.
I bought a steering joint off eBay and am waiting for that to arrive, otherwise I would be done with the mod.
HTH
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Frankie,
I started the mod only to find out the steering joint on mine is totally different than anything I've seen in the ETK or elsewhere. I posted pictures earlier, so look at them again and see if you have the same thing.
I test-fitted the rack and everything fit perfectly. I don't know what "severe modifications" you read about because I didn't need to lift the motor or bend the tabs to remove and replace the rack.
I bought a steering joint off eBay and am waiting for that to arrive, otherwise I would be done with the mod.
HTH
It seems that you have a non power steering version? You also said that E36 rack fits perfectly to your E30?
So, you need a US version of the steering joint in order to do the conversion?
Lots of questions...
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Any down sides to that conversion?
Frank
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It seems that you have a non power steering version? You also said that E36 rack fits perfectly to your E30?
So, you need a US version of the steering joint in order to do the conversion?
Lots of questions...
Lots of answers...we hope:D
-Yes, I have non-power steering.
-Yes, I said the E36 rack fits perfectly.
-I don't know that you need a US version steering joint at this point. The steering joint tjts1 posted in his thread is different than the other modified ones I've seen. After comparing pictures I think I figured out how to modify what I have, but it's going to be Friday or Saturday before I can get to it.
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Any down sides to that conversion?
Frank
Um, my arms might atrophy from not having to do so much turning:p
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Lots of answers...we hope:D
-Yes, I have non-power steering.
-Yes, I said the E36 rack fits perfectly.
-I don't know that you need a US version steering joint at this point. The steering joint tjts1 posted in his thread is different than the other modified ones I've seen. After comparing pictures I think I figured out how to modify what I have, but it's going to be Friday or Saturday before I can get to it.
In my airbag equipped car I reused the existing stock E30 joint. I didn't have to do anything to it other than adjust it up and down a little bit to get the perfect fit. It uses the same spline as the E36 rack. I thought about reinstalling it backwards (U joint at the top) in order to move the steering column upward but as it turns out it only fits one way.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/2420168902_849c6038a1_o.jpg
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Lots of answers...we hope:D
-Yes, I have non-power steering.
-Yes, I said the E36 rack fits perfectly.
-I don't know that you need a US version steering joint at this point. The steering joint tjts1 posted in his thread is different than the other modified ones I've seen. After comparing pictures I think I figured out how to modify what I have, but it's going to be Friday or Saturday before I can get to it.
Please do post some pictures of how you did modify your steering joint etc. I know that I´m not only one waiting this information
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Please do post some pictures of how you did modify your steering joint etc. I know that I´m not only one waiting this information
Well, it didn't turn out to be plug-n-play like I hoped. After seeing and reading Justin's explanation of his lower joint, I thought I could separate the two joints I had and build what I needed.
Here's a shot comparing the two racks. The top rack is from an E36. Notice the length difference of the steering joints.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/keflaman/CIMG0261.jpg
The spindle on the lower steering column does not line up with the steering rack spindle, so from what I can surmise I will need the double U-jointed steering joint in order to make it work.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/keflaman/CIMG0266.jpg
I re-assembled everything and will wait for the joint I ordered to come in.
Bummer:(
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tjts1, Why didnt you loop the lines? Will you run into difficulties with that? When turning, the fluid left in the rack will still want to go somewhere, and if it had nowhere to go I could see it adding resistance to the steering? Or am I just crazy? :D
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Looping the lines sounds great in theory but in practice it will add more resistance to the rack. I completely drained the rack of oil before capping it. The air in my empty rack puts up less resistance than oil would in a looped system. There is this theory floating around out there that an empty rack will wear itself out very quickly. Thats simply not true. Oil does not lubricate the rack and pinion. It is greased from the factory. Its perfectly safe to run a depowered rack without oil.
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Well, it didn't turn out to be plug-n-play like I hoped. After seeing and reading Justin's explanation of his lower joint, I thought I could separate the two joints I had and build what I needed.
Here's a shot comparing the two racks. The top rack is from an E36. Notice the length difference of the steering joints.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/keflaman/CIMG0261.jpg
The spindle on the lower steering column does not line up with the steering rack spindle, so from what I can surmise I will need the double U-jointed steering joint in order to make it work.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/keflaman/CIMG0266.jpg
I re-assembled everything and will wait for the joint I ordered to come in.
Bummer:(
Yep, that is excatly what I have seen and heard. The steering rack is different compared to US cars.
If you can find a solution, let me know!
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Yep, that is excatly what I have seen and heard. The steering rack is different compared to US cars.
If you can find a solution, let me know!
I have no doubt if you were to find two of these http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/...9c6038a1_o.jpg you could join the two u-joints with bolts and bushings to build what you need.
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I have no doubt if you were to find two of these http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/...9c6038a1_o.jpg you could join the two u-joints with bolts and bushings to build what you need.
Link does not work...
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Link does not work...
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd172/keflaman/E30Joint.jpg
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Keflaman, any news of your project?
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Keflaman, any news of your project?
The steering joint was shipped out two days ago from California. I should see it in a week to ten days. Maybe sooner.
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The steering joint was shipped out two days ago from California. I should see it in a week to ten days. Maybe sooner.
I received my steering joint late last week and finally got some time to try installing it tonight. I bought my steering joint on eBay from "bavarianbmwparts". Do a search for "E30 steering joint". I made them an offer they accepted and they included free shipping as well. Can't complain about that.
I was surprised by how easy everything went together. The steering joint didn't need any modification and although it's pretty close to the firewall, it's not catching on anything.
I didn't need to bend the tabs where the rack mounts nor did I have to raise the engine for clearance. Makes me think something may be wrong:confused:
I'll stack up some washers or find something to make spacers to stick between the upper tab and steering rack tomorrow. A quick toe alignment and I should be ready to drive and see how everything feels.
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Damn, they want $90?
I have one that I'll ship for $45 (in the US).