M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: Paul Strefling on February 25, 2008, 01:08:57 PM
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With 211k miles on the engine it has developed a rather harsh tick. The frequency seems to be at half the engine speed which leads me to believe that it is in the valve train. It worsens as the oil temperature rises and is not even noticeable when the engine is cold.
With a screw driver to my ear I can not seem to pinpoint the location of the noise, however, I am almost certain it is not from the timing system; I can clearly hear the chain through the cover, but the ticking is not present.
A little bit of history:
The car has always ran on the cold side because of a sticky thermostat until about a month ago when I replaced it.
Currently running with about 1000 miles on Mobil 1 15W-50.
I am looking for some advice on what to look for when I take the valve cover off. Or perhaps this is a common problem?
Thank you for you time.
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Hi Paul, This is a fairly common noise for BMW's, and euro cars in general. There are 2 noises that cause this noise:
1. Hydraulic Lifters - if it ticks when the engine is warm then they are proberbly worn, usually they mainly tick on a cold start due to time taken for the oil to reach them.
2. Fuel Injectors - my engine's injectors tick very loudly and all the time - not sure if this normal though.
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I know for certain that it is not injector noise, the tapping is quite loud; I have an obnoxious exhaust leak at the collector and this tapping noise can easily be heard over it.
I originally thought that the culprit was a hydraulic lifter, but I am somewhat confused as why I could not detect the noise through the valve cover. I also find it odd that the noise only occurs with high oil temperatures. Are there any tricks to detect which lifter it is, or to assure that the noise is indeed coming from the valve train?
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I had ticking noise like that with a previous engine, it ended up being rod bearings
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I had ticking noise like that with a previous engine, it ended up being rod bearings
What did that run you to fix?
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I bought a parts car for $500 and took the engine out of it, and that one broke I rebuilt the original engine which ended up costing alot more. http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3523
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Try running a thinner oil - 5W30 Mobil 1 Fully Sythetic, pretty sure 15W50 is semi-synthetic. The thin oil solved my lifter noise.
Hey just wondering can you only hear the ticking noise from inside the car or is it noticeable all the time inside or out?
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I can hear the noise inside and outside the car. It is quite faint while sitting in the car though.
Considering this noise is only present at higher oil temperatures wouldn't that suggests that the a thinner oil would only make the problem worse?
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This may sound funny to most, but if you really want to narrow in on where the noise is actually or could be coming from - you can use the "stethoscope" method.
Sure, there are automotive stethoscopes for listening to engine noises, but instead of spending the money on one, you can perform the same diagnosis using a simple broom stick handle (or long wooden dowel stick, etc).
To do it - remove the broom head from the broom handle. Start the vehicle, then take the broom handle with the end where the broom actually used to be, pick a spot on the engine and place that end of the broom handle onto the part or engine. After picking a "listening spot", now take the other end of the broom stick and place it near whatever ear you prefer. Now you can actually listen to the internals of the engine. Poke around in different spots to listen. You will be surprised at what is magnified and can be heard through the broom handle (it's very effective for finding/locating internal engine issues).
Like I said, it seems very silly (and will look silly to any neighbors watching you) - BUT it DOES WORK and you can actually here the engine internals, whether you place it topside or bottom side. If the ticking, tapping, knocking, etc is internal, by using the method above, you will be able to zero in on actually where the noise is originating from within the engine.
I hope that helped.
:)
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Cobra,
I actually already gave that a try with a large screwdriver, unfortunately I was unable to pinpoint the location of the noise; I am curious to know if anyone has been able to distinctly hear lifters through the valve cover with this method...
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Hi Paul!
I missed the screwdriver reference when I quickly read through your post! :)
I know some are recommending a thinner oil - however, a thinner oil will not help the situation.
As you specifically noted in your original post, you state: It worsens as the oil temperature rises and is not even noticeable when the engine is cold.
The reason being is that due to the oil being cold, the oil is actually thicker prior to warm up or normal operating temps. Sometimes thicker oil can mask certain internal engine noises, reduce blow by, etc. Some shops will recommend or use a thicker oil in higher mileage engines due to internal wear on bearings, lifters, rockers, rotating assembly, etc. As you note, as the oil warms up, the noise is more present - even when using a 15w50 oil. Using a thinner oil will not help nor solve the issue you are experiencing. In some areas of the country, especially those that experience Winter, using a thicker oil is not good because the thicker the oil is, especially when at or below freezing temps, the longer it takes for the oil to reach all of the parts that need to be lubricated appropriately.
Usually, in winter months some folks go with a thinner weight oil and in summer months most folks will go to a thicker weight oil. This is for those w/ higher mileage engines - I'm not saying this is the thing to do for everyone, but it does work in instances where these engines, regardless of vehicle type, do benefit from the different oil viscosities during Seasonal changes. Some use a thicker weight oil all year round, however, if or at below freezing temps, this is risky.
Have you ever heard or read up on "SeaFoam"? I have personally never used the product, but have read about it on multiple car forums (every forum from BMW, Toyota, Honda, Volvo, Fords, GM, etc) and based on the responses and very lengthy threads, some folks swear by the product after using it. It's a product that the engine "injests" internally and the product is supposed to thoroughly clean out the engine internals from any varnish, carbon, "gunk", buildup, etc... Many have reported that after using the product, their engines have run much better, gas mileage has improved and even those that had some minor internal noises, the noises have been non-existant afterwards (such as stuck lifters & lifter ticking). If you have not read up on the product, just do a search on any automotive forum you belong to (or google it) and there's plenty of info on it which may help you too.
I'm going to say that the ticking you are experiencing could be worn lifters. Once the oil has been heated or reaches optimum operating temp, it is thinned out a little and the lifters will be ticking more so than when the oil was cold & thick. Remember, lifters are pressurized by oil - the denser the oil, the more pressure being exerted into the lifter - when the oil thins out, there is less pressure and less pumping of oil out of the lifter, especially on worn lifters (or higher mileage lifters).
There is a distinct difference between a tick & a tap. Usually ticking sounds like an old sewing machine. Fuel injectors do tick as well - on some vehicles the noise is more prevelant and louder than others (due to engine design & injector location), it's just the pulsation of the injector function.
At what spots or locations on the engine have you used the stethoscope method? Did you try it at each injector? How about along the intake runners? How about on either side of the valve cover or at different spots along the top of the cover?
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Oh yea - w/ the valve cover off - if you have someone manually crank over the engine by hand (disconnect the ignition coils - so the car will NOT start) - you should be able to see the lifters function and the oil being pumped out of them (and how the oil is pumped throughout the valley in the head). If there is a stuck or malfunctioning lifter, it will not pump oil out as efficiently as others (and again, you may also be able to hear a slight noise as the lifter is pumped up & drained).
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Hi, sorry about the thin oil issue - i forget that it only really helps for cold start problems. So if I'm using 5W30 now, next service what should I change to? My car wasn't as noisy when I used 10W40.
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I have got some updates. Unfortunately the car is over three hours aways from me, but I had my father do some more stethoscope tests on it. He found that the noise was best heard in the plenum and runners as well as the headers. But no individual cylinder was more pronounced. The block was quite quiet he said. There is no distinct location on the valve cover that is louder either.
I am certain that it is not the injectors though; I have an m20 as well.
I am still quite confused on the subject. Almost everything points to a worn lifter besides the inability to distinctly hear it in the valve cover.
Any more thoughts on the situation? I am planing on driving up there this weekend with parts to fix this thing...
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I am thinking that I may not be able to clearly hear the noise through the valve cover because of the provided insulation from the valve cover gasket, does that seem reasonable to anyone else?
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I am thinking that I may not be able to clearly hear the noise through the valve cover because of the provided insulation from the valve cover gasket, does that seem reasonable to anyone else?
I think the noise would tranfer through the cover bolts.
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You've probably already checked this, but make sure one of your spark plugs is not loose.
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Find a solution?
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Paul ,
Listen, bud, I own a 91 318is just like you. My little Natascha has 232k miles on her. I love this little car. I do all and I mean all my own work. I have lived in the deserts of California and the cold of the Northwest. The whole time I have run 20w50. I live in Florida now and still run a thick oil. As a matter of fact I use Castrol High Mileage oil. I personnally recommend this oil. It has saved my motor. I blew the upper coolant hose. Lost all coolant on the Freeway doing 95mph. I noticed my temp gauge was pegged in the red. Shut the motor off and coasted, luckily to a gas station, prayed to the car gods and fixed her. Buddy, USE THE THICK OIL. Ok. If you love that car, you will do this. Also try one of those oil additive gunk removers. You know the ones you add to the oil 10 min before you change it. Then with a can of ENGINE RESTORE and 5 qts of 20w50, don't forget the oil filter K, go from there. Let me tell you this, the engine restore works on the cylinders AS WELL AS all the other metal parts. If you can search for a product in your area called METALYZ. Its made in Switzerland. This SHIT works wonders. Its just like the Lubro-Moly MoS2 Anti-Friction oil treatment. Good luck Bud.
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I ordered a new set of lifters so I will be installing those this weekend.
I appreciate all of your help on the subject though. I will keep you guys updated.
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After replacing all the hydraulic lifters and the chain tensioner the problem is now fixed. Thanks for all the help.
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Paul, I'd love to see some photos and/or writeup on this procedure. My '92 318ic w/58k miles has the same symptoms ever since I bought it last November. The previous owner had an overheat so I suspect the hydraulic lifters are cooked. I've tried Seafoam and Marvel Mystery Oil to no avail. Did you need camshaft holder and flywheel lock tools? Where did you obtain your new lifters from?
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I was able to perform the procedure without any bmw specific tools. I installed oem lifters to keep the car legal for spec e30, otherwise I would recommend the lighter VW lifters: From MJM AutoHause (http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/product_info.php?info=Ina_050109309J.12.SET_Lifters_Set_of_12_OEM_Lightweight&products_id=906).
Here is a short list of the procedure. It was very straight forward.
1. remove spark plug wires
2. remove valve cover
3. zip tie timing chain to cam sprockets
4a. Remove upper chain guide
4b. Remove Chain Tensioner (may not be necessary)
5. Use a punch to mark the clocking of cam sprocket on the cam.
6. remove cam sprockets from cams
7. remove cam bearing caps by concurrently loosing the bolts at small intervals.
8. The cams are now free so go ahead and remove them.
9. Remove the lower cam journals along with the lifters.
This concludes the removal.
When you install the cams be sure to concurrently tighten the bolts very slowly. This is for three reasons, one to assure that cam is not put into bending, second to not harm the aluminum bearing faces, and third is to allow the lifters to compress excess oil out, otherwise you may hit a piston.
Assembly lube or some other type of sticky oil makes it easier to install the lifters, otherwise they will continue to fall out of their journals.
Some thoughts: if you have significant chain stretch you may want to check the timing at the end of the procedure to see if you should re clock the cam gears back to spec.
I will of course be available to answer any further questions; e-mail me if I am slow to respond though.
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What was the cost for the lifters?
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BMW oem is $15.50/lifter, VW lightweight is $10.75/lifter
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Have a PN for the VW?
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I believe it is 050109309J, I do not think the J is important though, if you search this forum you will find another reference to that part number.
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canadians can buy them for 9.95$ here (http://parts.autopartsonlinecanada.com/parts/apocanada/quote2.jsp?product=050109309J&action=search&cart=&partnerSession=&usemake=&returnurl=http://www.autopartsonlinecanada.com/)