M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: 1991 318is on February 23, 2008, 03:41:02 PM
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When i start it i can hear the chain it sounds like its slapping. rev it up and as the rpm's come down it goes slap slap slap slap. not sure what was done to it before so i'm going to assume nothing was done. so should i do the tensioner that pushes on the guide, or get a new chain and do it all? and its just over 160***miles
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Its hard to tell by sound along. Remove the valve cover and inspect the chain and sprockets.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41153&postcount=4
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Its hard to tell by sound along. Remove the valve cover and inspect the chain and sprockets.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41153&postcount=4
so if they look ok then what do i do?
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Change the tensioner.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2925
You should also drop the lower oil pan and check for loose bolts or pieces broken off from the guide rail.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594
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Wow some good stuff to know there. ill be taking off the valve cover and lower oil pan tomorrow or the next day, and ill go from there. hope theres not bolts laying in there. if i need to do the chain and all the stuff i'm not sure if i want to do it myself or get a shop to do it. if a shop does the timing chain and sprockets and all that stuff how long do you think it would take them? probably wont be cheep
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The parts alone are a few hundred dollars. If you have a shop do the work, all together it'll probably end up costing more than the car is worth.
Edit: another good read
http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318ismaintenance.html#timingchain
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ya its not cheep hope i just need the tensioner.
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You can almost count on finding bolts in your pan.
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ya there was shit in the pan. some pics of what i found 3 bolts i can see where they go. and a little chunk of aluminum, not idea what its from. what loctite do i use on the bolts? and how much torque? sprockets are not to bad i don't think. so i'm not changing the chain or sprockets for sure. going to take out the tensioner prob change that and what about the plastic guide at the top? how much should the chain move up and down in it? might put a new one on it.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture730.jpg?t=1203896962)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture733.jpg?t=1203897447)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture737.jpg?t=1203897491)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture739.jpg?t=1203897506)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture740.jpg?t=1203897520)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture741.jpg?t=1203897549)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture742.jpg?t=1203897563)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture743.jpg?t=1203897577)
going to go take off the tensioner now ill post more pics soon. thanks for the help guys.
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The cam sprockets alone look pretty much shot. I'm not sure where that big chunk of aluminum came from but that can't be good.
good luck
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The cam sprockets alone look pretty much shot. I'm not sure where that big chunk of aluminum came from but that can't be good.
good luck
ya i don't know but now that i see the pics they make the sprockets look worse.
but the $ it cost to change that stuff is crazy so probably not going to do it.
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more pics (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture745.jpg?t=1203899963)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture744.jpg?t=1203899989)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture748.jpg?t=1203900004)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x116/510wagon/Picture749.jpg?t=1203900019)
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Now is the time for you to pause and decide if this particular engine is worth putting the money into it. You should do a compression test and see where the rest of the engine is at. A poor test would make it hard to justify the expense of the timing parts unless you went all the way with an engine rebuild.
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On the bright side, you have an M44 tensioner so it was replaced at least once. How many miles on the engine?
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it is a m44? 160somtin on the car
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Yeah. M42 top, M44 bottom.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1108/533584601_5ec4defc88_o.jpg
I would go with wise old dog. Check the compression and make a decision from there. If the rest of the engine is healthy and ur willing to do the work, go for it. Otherwise look for an engine out of an E36.
With the right tools and parts on hand it seems to me like the timing chain and gears should be about 2 days worth of work.
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Yeah. M42 top, M44 bottom.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1108/533584601_5ec4defc88_o.jpg
I would go with wise old dog. Check the compression and make a decision from there. If the rest of the engine is healthy and ur willing to do the work, go for it. Otherwise look for an engine out of an E36.
With the right tools and parts on hand it seems to me like the timing chain and gears should be about 2 days worth of work.
ya but its still not cheep, the tensioner should be smooth as you push it in right? because its not kinda has a couple spots where its stiff. i think tomorrow i'm going to the dealer and getting the oil pan seal and a new tensioner, thats probably all i'm going to change. see what it does.
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what loctite do i put on the bolts in the oil pan?
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The tensioner should have a tight spot where the "catch" on the inside engages. As worn as those gears looked, you probably should install the tensioner already extended. You don't want to skip a tooth.
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The tensioner should have a tight spot where the "catch" on the inside engages. As worn as those gears looked, you probably should install the tensioner already extended. You don't want to skip a tooth.
ya ill just push on it and get another hand to turn it i'm going to the dealer to get one today and the oil pan seal, also do you guys think i should change that little guide on the top between the cam sprockets?
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I had that some problem on my m42, started getting the chain slap, but if i rev above 3500 i would go away, but return up engine revving back down so i replaced the chain tensioner, and i installed mine all the way extended, noise got better could still hear it everyonce in a while, then it started pretty regular again so i installed some lucas oil stabilizer miracles happenend noise gone and on my merry way, wasnt merry very long about a month or so noise came back and this time it was pissed, would not go away and was like i never heard it, so off with the front cover, i think i can help you with that piece of aluminum i aint good sorry, i had so much chain slap that i finally ripped my chain tensioner out out of the front cover sending it into the cover to grind away, i just replaced my engine it was cheaper, i hope better luck for you but that chunk of aluminum doesnt look good, just dont want you to waste time and money on false hopes as i did, pull you front cover off before you go any further.
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A bit of warning...
If you change that tensioner now, there is a good chance your chain will start to self destruct.
Check your oil pickup screen and make sure it is not punctured.
What happens is the bolts in the pan, get pushed through the pickup screen. You can see the pan has been hit and the bolts pushed in. If there is a hole in that screen, replace it.
When you replace the tensioner, due to sprocket wear and a change in tension, the chain will start to shed rollers. These get sucked up through that hole in the pickup and you get what Bmwman91 and myself experienced, complete pump failure. This means replacing pump, chain, sprockets, timing chain housing ($$$) and more.
That chunk of aluminum is NOT good. It is not part of the rails that is for sure.
In fact it looks like it may be a part of the upper pan.
I would not simply put the engine back together unless you have AAA.
If you do have it, go for it, drive till it pops then find another engine.
chain breaks rollers, and those get sucked up by the pump, through the holes in the pickup created by the bolts in the ban.
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Is there a chance the chain is slapping around because of the loose bolts allowing the oil pump to suck up air and therefore not provide enough oil pressure to the tensioner? Maybe reinstalling the bolts is the fix. Obviously this chain and sprockets are too far gone but maybe the loose bolts is the cause of all these timing chain failures. For example I found the couple of the bolts finger tight but none were dropped in the oil pan and my timing gear looked great. Just an idea.
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Is there a chance the chain is slapping around because of the loose bolts allowing the oil pump to suck up air and therefore not provide enough oil pressure to the tensioner? Maybe reinstalling the bolts is the fix. Obviously this chain and sprockets are too far gone but maybe the loose bolts is the cause of all these timing chain failures. For example I found the couple of the bolts finger tight but none were dropped in the oil pan and my timing gear looked great. Just an idea.
Possible, but I would not count on it.
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well i think that putting the tensioner in is better then leaving it slap like it is. hope it last this summer maybe do a swap next winter. see how it works. and it was $95 for the tensioner at the dealer. should be in in a few days.
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11-31-1-743-187-M40 $44.00 - Pelican parts
Thats the tensioner i'd want in a 93?
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i live in Canada so i don't get free shipping for parts and stuff like in the us and the only place around i can get stuff like that is the dealer. and i don't want to wait for shipping and stuff.
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well i think that putting the tensioner in is better then leaving it slap like it is. hope it last this summer maybe do a swap next winter. see how it works. and it was $95 for the tensioner at the dealer. should be in in a few days.
That is the problem, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you put this in, the chain will start to shred itself.
If you don't your chain will bust up the inside of your engine.
Putting it in, is only delaying the inevitable.
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That is the problem, you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you put this in, the chain will start to shred itself.
If you don't your chain will bust up the inside of your engine.
Putting it in, is only delaying the inevitable.
maybe a motor swap next winter? m50??
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You may have a perfectly good engine there. Go ahead and put it back together, put your tensioner in, and do the compression check. If it checks out, you can look around for some deals on the timing parts and do the job yourself. I figure $500 or less if you are patient and take your time finding parts. There are some new gears on e-bay recently for $20 each. Item number: 250220079772. Chain is about $50, rails are about $200.
If you continue to drive it, only bad things will happen, and you might as well start looking for a replacement engine. And remember, used engines come with problems as well.
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Well, just judging by the wear o nthe cam sprocket teeth I would say you are due for an overhaul. As stated above, you are doing to be dropping $ no matter what. Personally, I would opt to do it now rather than later, because later you will need a new timing case housing, which means installing a new profile gasket, which means pulling the head for some people (unless you have some really good steel shims).
You might also blow the motor completely & sieze things up. The parts for a timing case overhaul NOW will be around $500. If yo udo it after things self-destruct, you are looking at $750+ if you manage to find a good used timign case, probably more.
Sorry to see that the motor needs the work, it is never fun to have to do it. My pump blew when I was still a broke-ass college student and I was pissed. If I hadn't been on an internship at the time, I would not have been able to fix it period. Best of luck to you! Drive it gently.
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You may have a perfectly good engine there. Go ahead and put it back together, put your tensioner in, and do the compression check. If it checks out, you can look around for some deals on the timing parts and do the job yourself. I figure $500 or less if you are patient and take your time finding parts. There are some new gears on e-bay recently for $20 each. Item number: 250220079772. Chain is about $50, rails are about $200.
If you continue to drive it, only bad things will happen, and you might as well start looking for a replacement engine. And remember, used engines come with problems as well.
Not perfectly good.
The sprockets and chain are done.
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well as of now i'm broke too in grade 12 but this summer ill be making $$$ so maybe next winter save up for a swap or sell the car and get another one. i don't know but its not all getting fixed now. but the car is in bomb shape and and its so nice i don't want to sell it i would like to save some $ for a swap, not sure what i would put in it.
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and picking around for parts would not be a bad idea when i get it all sped the $ for a shop to do it, or read up allot and do it. so what would be the exact parts i would be replacing?
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May just want to look around, you can find M42 and M44 engines for a couple hundred bucks. I paid $200 for mine. Bmwman91 replaced his whole timing chain housing assembly for less than that if I recall.
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May just want to look around, you can find M42 and M44 engines for a couple hundred bucks. I paid $200 for mine. Bmwman91 replaced his whole timing chain housing assembly for less than that if I recall.
ya i'm going to start looking around
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wow Sheepdog, that's quite cheap. Here in Europe, we can't find such deals!
Perhaps it's a good idea to make a thread an rethink some things about the M42 and its distribution.
I opened my old M42 last weekend, wich is one of the thirst M42's, November '89. The guide rails where broken in pieces and the timing chain slipped a tooth or two. But when I took of the carter, only thing I found where pieces of the timing chain. No lose bolts. The engine had 224k km's on it (140 000 miles), still with the original tensioner.
My other M42 which is an '90 or '91 engine, had only 140 000(86 000 miles) on it, according to the odometer and that had three lose bolts in the oil pan, also with the original tensioner.
I replaced the tensioner now and am getting a rattle noise from 3000 to 4000rpm. A friend of mine's, with an M42 with only 64 000 miles on it has the same noise around the same revband. I think he had his tensioner changed, because he bought it from a BMW dealer.
I do have heard from M42's around here who easily do 300 000km (186 000miles) and more without an overhaul, only changing the tensioner from time to time.
My opinion is, if the car is still in good shape and you like it, replace the distribution. You'll be happy afterwards.
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wow Sheepdog, that's quite cheap. Here in Europe, we can't find such deals!
May want to take a trip to Germany.
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put the tensioner in today and the bolts are all back in and filled the oil up but its a little low so ill get more oil tomorrow before i start it. before i put the tensioner in i tried to get as much oil in it as i could. slid it in and stuck a socket extension down from the top of the motor because the vc is still off. touched it it came out the chain went snug, so i don't need to rev it to pop it. thanks for all the help see how it works tomorrow.
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May just want to look around, you can find M42 and M44 engines for a couple hundred bucks. I paid $200 for mine. Bmwman91 replaced his whole timing chain housing assembly for less than that if I recall.
Kinda, lol.
I paid $80 for a used timing case, shipped, plus like $30 for profile gaskets & the big huge back one, & the cover gaskets.
However, I had dropped ~$510 on rebuilding all the timing parts & t-stat like 4 months prior. Trust me, I was pissed when the oil pump blew & I had to tear it all apart again.
So, the initial job is around $500 for the overhaul. Bank on at LEAST another $150ish if you blow the pump, assuming you get a killer deal from someone on a forum!
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put the tensioner in today and the bolts are all back in and filled the oil up but its a little low so ill get more oil tomorrow before i start it. before i put the tensioner in i tried to get as much oil in it as i could. slid it in and stuck a socket extension down from the top of the motor because the vc is still off. touched it it came out the chain went snug, so i don't need to rev it to pop it. thanks for all the help see how it works tomorrow.
Did you pull the lower oil pan & look around? If there are no chunks of chain, you may be OK in the immediate future. Check it again after maybe 5000 miles.
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May want to take a trip to Germany.
I'm a lot on ebay germany :) M42's go mostly for around 400 euros
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just got it all together and running, can hear it a little and a certain rpm but its nothing. not going to worry about it.
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i live in Canada so i don't get free shipping for parts and stuff like in the us and the only place around i can get stuff like that is the dealer. and i don't want to wait for shipping and stuff.
here's a little help to my fellow canadian:
www.autopartsonlinecanada.com (http://autopartsonlinecanada.com)
you can get free shipping on orders over 75$
the tensioner is 65$ (buy for 10$ of whatever and get free shipping)
i bought a fan clutch last summer from them, it got delivered fast and was a OEM
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just got it all together and running, can hear it a little and a certain rpm but its nothing. not going to worry about it.
You might get 10-20k out of it.
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You might get 10-20k out of it.
of the tensioner? or the hole timing system? i read so many things with people having the same problem and its just been a tensioner worked fine after that.
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of the tensioner? or the hole timing system? i read so many things with people having the same problem and its just been a tensioner worked fine after that.
The whole system.
Yes, people go along time, but in those cases changing the tensioner quiets things down completely. It could go longer if there are no holes in your pickup for particles to pass through. Less if there are with no bolts blocking said holes.
Your chain will likely start to eat itself up.
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ya nothing blocking it all the bolts are back in with blue loctite and the screen looked fine. see what happens
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Just curious - did you ever find out what that chunk-o-metal that was found in your oil pan was from???
I think the concerns outlined here are that you have potentially other parts of the timing system which do show wear (as seen in the pics you provided and based on your comments) and that these worn parts could fail sonner or later. If those parts do fail, even after others have pointed out that possibility, a failure as such will only cause more damages & $$$$ than if those parts were just replaced during the time you had the engine open. I think another reason for concern too is that chunk-o-metal in your oil pan, which is not good by any means.
What it comes down to is there is a 50/50 chance the "band aid" fix works now, but for how long no one really knows.
IMO - I would want to fix any potential problems before they evolved into possibly more expensive repairs and a car that is rendered useless due to a blown engine. Plus, spending the $$$ on M42 parts to prevent such a failure is a lot less expensive than doing an M50 swap, especially if you are on a limited budget to begin with...
:)