M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: Ruger on February 20, 2008, 12:15:17 AM
-
Hi folks just giving some feedback on my experience with injectors. This would make a good consolidated thread
For the record my car is as follows
e30 318is,
electric fan, cai (twin 3" pipes going to airbox with k&n filter), replaced exhaust with a stainless sports muffler, magnaflow cat and center resonator, aftermarket coils with msd wires and a tickle of the cam timing.
Now i got my car dyno'd with 19lb ford injectors (155 700's) and it was a bit too lean for a 17 year old engine with 260,000km's
The car ran well though idled smoothly.
I just installed 22lb 4 pintle injectors and the car definately goes as good as if not better than it did before performance wise. But one thing i noticed is it starts a hell of alot easier. It seems to have fixed my cold start problems. I will give it another week to confirm though. Idles and revs up very smoothly and is definately the best running "old" engine ive ever experienced.
Share your injector experiences :)
-
Ur ahead of me on this one Ruger. What injectors did you end up using? I hope you get a chance to dyno the car with the new injectors.
As previously mentioned, I'm using 0280 155 700 injectors (19#) from a Ford Thunderbird. I'm very happy with these so far. Fuel economy is improved but I don't know about any power gain. Looking to upgrade to the 21-22# range soon.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233&page=3
-
The injectors are 0 280 155 715's they are light blue in color a slightly different color to the witchhunter performance picture. I was assured these were in fact 22lb but who can be sure. It doesnt seem to be running rich and it has picked up performance past 5500rpm (power surge comes on at 4200 and then again at 5500)
The injectors do have ford stamped on them and they are sold here for upgraded "holden commodores" basically the yank buick 3.8 supercharged v6
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160205101253&ssPageName=ADME:B:BCA:AU:1123
Im starting to build up a collection of injectors, i have 6 19lbers, 2 spare 22lbers and a set of single pintle stockers hehehehe
The next dyno run will depend on when the next big dyno day is. hopefully in the next month or so but dont hold me on that. Dyno runs are $150-170aud here
-
Haha thats funny I have a set of those in the garage. Came off a Ford Taurus 3.0 24v. The specs I found found said 22.45# or 235cc @ 43psi. I was afraid they would be too big so I didn't use them. I guess I was wrong. I'll give them a try. Thanks for the head ups.
-
Ruger,
You said your in the land of Oz. Are you in Sydney, Melb, Brissy or somewhere else?
Cristian
-
Hi Cristian,
Yep the land of oz! im in sydney mate. Inner south west is best to describe it. Are you a member of http://www.eurocca.net? i went on a drive with them last week it was awesome check it out.
Cheers,
George
-
Haha thats funny I have a set of those in the garage. Came off a Ford Taurus 3.0 24v. The specs I found found said 22.45# or 235cc @ 43psi. I was afraid they would be too big so I didn't use them. I guess I was wrong. I'll give them a try. Thanks for the head ups.
Chuck them in see how you go. When i had my car on the dyno the operator said 22lb would be the best bet
Have you done any performance mods?
-
Funny how some sites rate these at 27 lbs.
Injector Numbers: F5DE-B5A -- 280-155-715
Flow Rate: 280cc/min or 27lbs/hr
-
Found some additional info on the flow rates of these injectors under various pressures ( top one would be for our M42's):
* 24.38 LB/HR AT 43.5 PSI
* 25.61 LB/HR AT 48 PSI
* 26.13 LB/HR AT 50 PSI
* 27.41 LB/HR AT 55 PSI
-
These guys say 24.3
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280155715.jpg)
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectordata1.php4
Thats why I was holding out for these injectors found on Saab/Opel V6. I have these in my volvo which also took 19# injectors originally. It made a nice upgrade. Just have to find some more. The resistance value they list is wrong.
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280155712.jpg)
Another injector im considering is Dodge neon injector at 22.6#. These things are all over the JYs.
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280155703.jpg)
Have you done any performance mods?
Almost everything I've done to it is contained in this thread. The short list is manual steering, electric fan, 3.64 gears, wheels, tires, brakes.
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2676
But now that we know these 715 injectors work, be they 22 or 24#, I'm going to try them. Too bad the fuel rail is such a pain in the ass to get to.
Cheers
-
Here's some info on injectors I thought some of you could use:
Note: The below color coding is for BOSCH injectors.
~~~~~~
15lbs = Gray top injectors
19lbs = Yellow (or sometimes referenced as Orange) top injectors
19lbs = Solid Orange "skinny" injectors
21lbs = Solid Light Purple "skinny" injectors
22lbs = Violet top injectors
22.5lbs = Blue & Black top w/ Silver body injectors
24lbs = Sky Blue top injectors
25lbs = Solid Black "skinny" injectors
25lbs = Solid Light Blue "skinny" injectors (Ford Navigator)
27lbs = Solid Light Gray "skinny" injectors
30lbs = Red top injectors
36lbs = Brown top injectors (low impedence, used in the 4 cyl Turbo vehicles)
36lbs = Dark Blue (Colbalt Blue) top injectors
36lbs = Solid White "skinny" w/ rectangular connector injectors
39lbs = Solid Blue "skinny" injectors (Blue Giant) (Ford rates this at 39lbs, flow rate is actually 42lbs)
42lbs = Lime Green top injectors
42lbs = Solid Green "skinny" injectors
48lbs = Beige top injectors (found on 85 CFI 5.0's)
50lbs = Gray top injectors
55lbs = Black w/ Gray top injectors
65lbs = Purple top injectors
160lbs (1600cc) = White top injectors w/ black body
Most, if not 90% of all injectors are BOSCH injectors that are supplied to Ford, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, Volvo, (and MANY other vehicle manufacturers). There are other injector suppliers, but for the most part, BOSCH is the most common, over Denso, Lucas, Siemens, Rochester & GM Multec Fuel Injectors.
Also note that when buying injectors for an older vehicle, there are quite a few injectors that have been re-designed over the years where the actual pintel, body & connector *COULD BE* different from your original OEM injectors. MAKE SURE that the connector on the new injector will match your existing fuel injector harness connectors. Most pintels have been redesigned so that the "spray" coming out of the injector is a better pattern for fuel burn, for faster pulse rates and more efficient atomization. So if the injector you are buying has a redesigned pintel or may be referred to as a "Design III" injector, it's actually a good thing and they are OEM replacements.
A good site for purchasing nearly ANY type of fuel injector is: http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/ . The prices are decent, but over the last few years I've seen the cost of injectors rise drastically - even on eBay.
-
Here's some info on injectors I thought some of you could use:
Note: The below color coding is for BOSCH injectors.
Thats really misleading. There is no color coding for bosch injectors. You can find 19# injectors for example in almost any color. There are 2 main families of injectors we are looking at. EV1 injectors which contain a needle like single pintle, designed in the sixties and used all the way up through the mid 90s. The other are EV6 injectors found on new cars from the early 90s on. These have a flat plate nozzle with 4-16 holes each. These provide for better atomization compared to the old EV1 injectors. Finally there are EV12 and EV14 injectors that haven't hit the JYs yet.
The two main families of injectors are distinguished by the Bosch part number molded into the side. The Bosch pn is the ONLY way to ensure what kind of injector you have. EV1 injectors have PN beginning with 0280-150-XXX and EV6 injectors have a PN beginning with 0280-155-XXX
Fiveomotorsport sells used JY injectors that have been cleaned, flow tested and received new O ring seals. Thats why they can sell them so cheap. You can do this yourself for much less. There are about 100 different Bosch injectors out there compatible with out cars.
More important electric connector type on any injector is the resistance of the injector coil. You could cause serious damage to your DME if you install a low resistance injector in our cars for example. You can always swap the connectors.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2659.htm
http://z-r-c.com/News/article/sid=32.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_0102/article.html
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectordata1.php4
http://www.injectorcleaning.co.uk/flow.htm
-
Good links, informative reply.
Show me a BOSCH 19lb injector that is a different color over the common yellow tops (old design) or the new solid yellow bodied injectors. Show me a BOSCH 24lb injector that is a different color other then mentioned above etc etc etc. BOSCH injectors are color coded for a reason. I'm not referring to different manufacturers, because there is the possibility that surely a manufacturer other than BOSCH could produce or manufacture a 19lb injector that is a different color.
Sure, there ARE different injector bodies (sizes, shapes, angle of connector block), different pintels, etc - just as I DID mention above in my reply - however, a BOSCH 19lb injector if installed in Brand A vehicle can also be used in Brand X vehicle that also used or uses a BOSCH 19lb injector - permitting it is the SAME body/type/pintel, etc.
Do you think that Ford produces their own injectors because they have a Ford part # and that those injectors can only be used in a Ford? Even if the injector had a BMW part #, that same injector could be used in a variety of other vehicle applications. I've seen, used, swapped and read on multiple forums, sites, etc that Brand A can use the same 19lb injector that Brand X uses - or one that any other vehicle uses - the swap or compatibility of that same injector among different vehicle manufacturers (and uses) is nearly endless. I've read countless BMW threads & forums where owners have used Ford injectors (BOSCH) in their vehicles, and visa versa... same applies to many other Automotive forum and their specific vehicle brands.
I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to clarify. Also, BOSCH has upgraded injector pintels & design of which even though the same body & color, the pintel has been revised for a better spray pattern, less likely to become clogged/covered w/ sludge and is better for more efficient amotization - so one could use the most current revision of say a 19lb over the older 19lb design.
Plus, if one is upgrading injector sizes, there are other things to consider such as fuel rail sizing, fuel pressure regulator (adjustable is preferred), proper fuel psi and type/size of fuel pump - it's not just a matter of plugging in new higher flowing injectors and driving off, because you're not accomplishing any real gains and could really cause problems for the engine. If one wants to get really technical and if really wanting the most out of the fuel system, then have a Professional go in and tune the ECM's software parameters (or a person who knows how to use tuning software at their home could do and accomplish the same) so the engine is operating at it's real potential. One other part that is usually upgraded too in conjunction w/ fuel related upgrades is the mass air flow sensor. I mean, just plopping in a larger size injector and using "SOTP" (seat of the pants) judgement is not proving anything - sure the car will run, however, is the car really running efficiently, is it running rich (or lean), how is performance really being affected, is it washing out the cylinders, are you causing harm to other internal components, is gas mileage being affected in a negative or positive manner, etc...
BTW - even though I'm considered a "newb" here and have a low post count, does not mean I'm blowing BS into what I posted above. Just for a little background, I belong to many online automotive forums with much much higher post counts (since everyone judges others by their total post count - which IMO is idiotic in every sense). Some of the forums I belong to including but not limited to are: Toyotas, Volvos, Hondas, Jeeps, Miatas, Fords (Mustang, Bronco & Explorer), BMWs (previously owned an E36 M3), automotive enthusiast forums, detailing forums, racing forums, etc etc etc... I also do all of my own repairs and those of which I need help with, I have a very close friend who can and does help when needed. My knowledge and capability spans and hits on nearly every aspect including complete engine rebuilds, engine swaps, upgrades, modifications, complete tear down/assembly of vehicles, suspension, exhaust, audio, interior, etc etc etc... basically everything except tire mounting & wheel alignments... LMAO.
:) :)
-
Good links, informative reply.
Show me a BOSCH 19lb injector that is a different color over the common yellow tops (old design) or the new solid yellow bodied injectors. Show me a BOSCH 24lb injector that is a different color other then mentioned above etc etc etc.
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280150714.jpg)
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280150730.jpg)
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280150749.jpg)
Show me a BOSCH 24lb injector that is a different color other then mentioned above etc etc etc.
(http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/b0280155721.jpg)
I could go on but my point is, color alone is not a reliable way of figuring out flow rate. You need to go by the bosch PN. Even Bosch injectors found in Fords have 2 PNs. A Ford PN on one side and a Bosch pn on the other.
Sure, there ARE different injector bodies (sizes, shapes, angle of connector block), different pintels, etc - just as I DID mention above in my reply - however, a BOSCH 19lb injector if installed in Brand A vehicle can also be used in Brand X vehicle that also used or uses a BOSCH 19lb injector - permitting it is the SAME body/type/pintel, etc.
Both Ruger and I are using skinny 4 hole injectors in our M42s without any problem. So far we've tried Bosch injectors ford, saab and volvo between 19-24# on this engine.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/2063400461_4e368ebab0_o.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b198/tjts3/pics194.jpg
So far we've both seen FE improvement and better idle with the newer type injectors. By the seat of the pants I would say I have better mid range with the 155-700 injectors but I want to try 22# injectors before i'm done.
BTW - even though I'm considered a "newb" here and have a low post count, does not mean I'm blowing BS into what I posted above. Just for a little background, I belong to many online automotive forums with much much higher post counts (since everyone judges others by their total post count - which IMO is idiotic in every sense). Some of the forums I belong to including but not limited to are: Toyotas, Volvos, Hondas, Jeeps, Miatas, Fords (Mustang, Bronco & Explorer), BMWs (previously owned an E36 M3), automotive enthusiast forums, detailing forums, racing forums, etc etc etc... I also do all of my own repairs and those of which I need help with, I have a very close friend who can and does help when needed. My knowledge and capability spans and hits on nearly every aspect including complete engine rebuilds, engine swaps, upgrades, modifications, complete tear down/assembly of vehicles, suspension, exhaust, audio, interior, etc etc etc... basically everything except tire mounting & wheel alignments... LMAO.
:) :)
Nobody is calling you a newb and we welcome your input and knowledge. If i came across as arrogant way, please accept my apology. I see your point that there is some correlation between injector size and color. But without knowing the Bosch PN and a corresponding flow test, you really can't be sure what ur getting.
Another point to consider is the shape of the injector spray. Especially on EV6 injectors, the spray pattern can be completely different between 2 similar size injectors. You really want to find an injector from a car that has a similar valve layout and position of the injector. The Ford injectors I'm using right now are probably not ideal in that respect. The spray pattern can be split or angle in any number of different ways.
cheers
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/2296071319_0dd1a8d570_o.jpg)
-
I would not argue with justin about injectors...
-
Awww, I'm sorry, I'll play nice from now on :D
-
hello,
im new and have a few questions about injectors and spark plugs. to start off iv turbo'ed my car(95 bmw 318i e36 m42) but the only things i need are 30lb injectors and one step colder spark plugs, lets just say i have no idea were to start for these. i need to know were to get them and the adapters, can someone help me out please? my email address is toxicwinter392@aol.com thanks.
-
10lb injectors? i hope you meant 30lb, at least.
-
10lb injectors? i hope you meant 30lb, at least.
I hope so also lol
Ultimate injector list http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
-
My 91 has 280 155 715 and runs perfect. Upper range picked up , idle improved some. But the cams were off before also. HTH
-
yeah i was looking for some links on were to buy the 30lb injectors and some one step colder plugs also thanks.
-
Please kick your high school English teacher in the nuts.