M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: P Zero on January 31, 2008, 07:33:30 AM
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Hi folks,
I'm in the process of building a track car using a 316 shell and 318is running gear. I need to start thinking about the engine because I think I need to install it early on so its not lying on the garage floor getting in the way :rolleyes:
I have an M42 which is running well and has just had new cam chain, sprockets and tensioners. After speaking to tim_s I think I'm going to go with a 1.9 bottom end to keep the costs down. I also have a set of E36 M3 Evo throttle bodies which I plan on fitting.
I am also planning on swapping out the fan and pas pump for electric versions to try and reduce strain on the motor.
So here come the questions;
- Will I have to go with aftermarket management or is there any other way to run this setup using the standard ecu?
- Would fitting performance cams see a significant change in performance coupled with the itb's?
- What other mods can I make that won't break the bank?
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You will need an aftermarket ECU.
Cams will not do much unless you have the heads done up.
Other mids...
I would do coil on plug, not much power, but a good investment. Headwork and new cams will be the biggest help.
On the heads (which are the biggest problem with the engine it seems), clean up the bowls and ports, and unshroud the valve stems. I would also consider tapering the valve stems, and using VW lifters. Then go with Megasquirt or another ECU, raise the rev limit to no more than 7500. Could also raise the compression a full point and switch to a single row timing chain. I would also go for a lightened flywheel.
Not 100% sure, but you should be good for 180-190hp. Maybe more if you do it all right.
Unfortunately, you are probably half way to a Metric Mechanic built motor by this point. Pistons are the best spot to save costs, leave the stock 1.9 bottom end.
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What are the benefits of coil on plug?
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What are the benefits of coil on plug?
i think you will get a better spark every time. there is no resistance from the wires so the voltage can be higher at the plug. its almost the same price as performance wires too.
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i think you will get a better spark every time. there is no resistance from the wires so the voltage can be higher at the plug. its almost the same price as performance wires too.
If you are careful, they can be had for less than performance wires and lasts a lot longer. Also cleans up the engine bay a bit.
My thinking though above all is wires are just one more connection to fail, and one more expense you do not need. Do this you replace the coils, and eliminate the wires for the same cost as the wires.
I love simplicity.
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It would be beneficial for me because I'm converting a 316 to M42, so I have no coil mount on the inner wing.
My other car is a Peugeot 405 Mi16 which has coil on plug as standard. I know that the boots just pull off the coils, so I'll check tonight if the boots fit the M42 coils and are long enough to contact the plug.
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You will need an aftermarket ECU.
Cams will not do much unless you have the heads done up.
Other mids...
I would do coil on plug, not much power, but a good investment. Headwork and new cams will be the biggest help.
On the heads (which are the biggest problem with the engine it seems), clean up the bowls and ports, and unshroud the valve stems. I would also consider tapering the valve stems, and using VW lifters.
I am sorry for invading your thread man, but I was wondering which model VW are these lifters from? Can anyone provide the part number? Also can I get a picture of that coil on plug system?
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I am sorry for invading your thread man, but I was wondering which model VW are these lifters from? Can anyone provide the part number? Also can I get a picture of that coil on plug system?
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3698
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After reading more threads and talking a lot to kowalski, I have come to the following spec;
Overbored block
M44 crank
S52 pistons
M42 rods
Total Seal piston rings
Cams (spec yet to be decided)
VW lifters
S50 springs (unsure on this)
E36 M3 Evo ITB's
Custom plenum
Megasquirt (or other management)
I was hoping for 180bhp originally within a budget of £1000 ($2000). Do you reckon this spec is possible for that money?
Also, can anybody explain to me more about tapered valve stems?
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i think you will go over budget if you go with mostly new parts
as a reference all in $
here are some pistons and crank for 300
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13919
VW lifters on ebay will go for under 100
m42 rods i assume you already have them
new valve springs are aroung 300
ITBS are expensive and hard to find
http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/bmw-parts-sale/103631-fs-e36-m3-throttle-body.html
custom plenum
if you do it yourself, and you do it righ the first time it should be around 50$
megasquit 300
Schrick cams: 900
by the way this is very interesting, i hope you can keep us posted throughout the development and build
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interesting thread.. a budget build m42!
i am building two cars at the moment.. it really helps to know where i can save money!
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Well, I'm in the process of obtaining my M44 crank and S52 pistons from Kowalski on this forum. They are already prepared for use but I'm not sure how much they are going to cost yet due to shipping costs. Hopefully my Dad is going to bring them back from Canada with Him. I already have M42 rods.
I already have a set of E36 M3 Evo ITB's which I picked up on UK ebay for £100 ($200). I already have a few ideas about plenum design, but I reckon $50 is a fair build cost.
S50 springs and VW lifters I can get second hand pretty easily I would hope. Is that a good idea?
If megasquirt is that pricy I might look at some more mainstream alternatives (omex, emerald, etc).
For cams, I was looking at catcams. They do a set for the M42. Not sure on cost yet but hopefully cheaper than schrick.
So it looks like cams and management are going to be the things to break my buget. I'll have to look into some cost saving alternatives.
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where are you at? any updates on your build?
i found a dead M42 that will serve me to build an engine similar to yours, slowly, while in university next fall
anything you find or development on your side would help me as well, keep me posted
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where are the pics of the E36 M3 Evo throttle bodies?? ;-) did you already begun your project?
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Hi folks, sorry for not having posted any updates, we've been busy buying a new house which needs quite a lot of work, so the IS isn't getting the attention it really needs.
It is progressing slowly though, I was down at the garage all day today cleaning up the engine, although I'm not sure whether to stroke it at the moment due to cost. I'll be making a decision about that over the next week or so.
I now have an M44 crank and S50 pistons (ground down to maintain original CR), so all that would be needed would be an overbore to complete the stroker part of the project. The engine is hanging in the garage at the moment waiting for a decision.
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I started work on the engine in the past week. I got it up on a stand at the beginning of the week, I stripped all the ancillaries and loom, then gave it a good degreasing.
The plan is to get the throttle bodies, coil on plug conversion, etc sorted before I rebuild it, so its all ready to be refit during the buildup.
So, today I started fitting the ITB's. I've used the first and third pairs because they have the mounting points for fuel and vacuum rails. After trying a test fit of the rails, it looks like I'll have to heavily modify the existing 4 or 6 cylinder rails, or fabricate something from scratch.
I I did shorten the throttle bar though. It seems there may also be a problem with the throttle postition sensor because it clashes with the head. For just now, I have removed it and its bracket.
As mentioned in other threads, only the bottom holes on the bodies match the head, so I'll have to do something about that. Not sure what yet though...
Sorry about the quality of the photos, I'll get some better ones!!
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_checkfit_01.jpg)
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_checkfit_02.jpg)
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What about a spacer of some sort?
I know it would cost you more money, but I think it would be the easiest way.
How close in proximity are the bolt holes (all three I mean).
If you were to use a piece of metal (aluminum most likely) that would clear the head of an allen screw, or bolt (or torx :D), and then bolt the TB's to the spacer.
If you get measurments I'm sure any machine shop could make one for you a fairly cheap price. It's not like it would be a fantastically difficult piece to design, or make....
That's what I would do, but there may be other ways that are more cost effective.
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It may also give you enough clearance for you throttle position sensor...
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I had wondered about a spacer, but I dont think it would be the best. It would only need to be about 10 - 15mm thick, but the bolts holding it to the head would be in the way of the location you would want the new threads for the itbs to bolt to.
I've also been reading through this thread (http://www.bmwowner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19510&st=0&sk=t&sd=a) which indicates that the injector jet may not be at the best angle when using a spacer :(
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just a question.. is it possible to cut all the bolt holes from the ITB and weld it on a spacer that fits on the head??
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just a question.. is it possible to cut all the bolt holes from the ITB and weld it on a spacer that fits on the head??
Thats not a bad idea, it would certianly look great. They really need to be as close to the head as you can get them though. In my opinion, one of the problems with using these itb's is that when mounted on the head, the injector is further from the valves than with the standard setup. The throttle body is already oval shaped by the time it reaches the head, but ports on the head have the cutout for the fuel flow from the injector on the standard inlet tract.
Not sure if that makes much sense, but I'll try and get some photos later to explain better.
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Played around a bit more tonight. I tried the fuel rails from both M42 and S50 for size. Its definitely best to use the S50 fuel and vacuum rails. I can still use the M42 injector connection box.
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_checkfit_03.jpg)
The fuel and vacuum rails will have to be modified, obviously they are 2 cylinders too long. They will need to be shortened and the brackets at the front end moved back to compensate for the missing pair of itb's. The vacuum rail connection also needs to be moved, because it usually pokes through between the middle pair of itb's but the two end pairs, which I am using, have the mounts for the rails in the way. The photo above shows everything mounted up using the centre itb instead of the front one just so everthing would fit. I will need to use the front itb though because it has the rail mount and the tps mount. It may be easier to fabricate the fuel and vac rails from scratch rather than mess around modifying these ones.
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_fuel_rail_01.jpg)
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_vac_rail_01.jpg)
The photo below shows the tps clash with the head. This can be easily sorted by making up a new slimmer bracket from sheet aluminium that will fit in the gap.
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_tps_01.jpg)
I also had a look at the port shapes a bit more while I was in the garage. It looks like the size is just the same, however, there are two problems here. The centre mounting hole is not quite the same height, so the bodies need to be pushed as far up as they will go to get the vertical alignment correct. The second problem, as I mentioned in a previous post, is the cutout in the port for the injector jet. On the M42, this cutout begins in the lower inlet manifold, and continues into the head. On the itb's, this cutout begins and ends in the itb itself. I think it could be left as it is, but surely it would be better to try and get the flow of air and fuel as smooth as possible?
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_port_shape_01.jpg)
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If anyones interested, heres a piccy of my sanctuary :)
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/garage_01.jpg)
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Do you have someone who can weld aluminum?
Looks like an option would be to get those on a mill and take a good .125" off the thickness of the flange face. This would bring the injectors down closer to the port opening. You can machine off the ITB bolt tabs and weld on tabs in the right position.
OR
You can cut and weld the ITB pipes onto the OEM flange and use the OEM injector holes.
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Do you have someone who can weld aluminum?
Looks like an option would be to get those on a mill and take a good .125" off the thickness of the flange face. This would bring the injectors down closer to the port opening. You can machine off the ITB bolt tabs and weld on tabs in the right position.
OR
You can cut and weld the ITB pipes onto the OEM flange and use the OEM injector holes.
I'm definitely thinking of having the flange face machined so that the injectors are closer to the ports, but I am concerned about it getting expensive.
Can anyone explain to me where the various connections on the vacuum rail/balance bar should connect up to? I know the large connection on the left goes to the idle control valve, but there is a smaller connection in the centre, and an even smaller one to the right.
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_rails_01.jpg)
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Didn't do much today. I got distracted by the guy in the garage next door with His Caterham. We went about 30 or 40 miles which was great fun!
I found out what the second connection on the vacuum rail is for. The brake servo :) I should have realised really. I am assuming that the third small connection is just a drain off or something.
What I did do was shorten the fuel and vacuum rail. All I did was cut the two centre itb connections off each bar, and I'll get someone to weld them back together for me. The fuel rail will be complete at that point, but I will need to have the connections for the brake servo and the idle control valve added to the 'new' rail.
I also cut off the rearmost part of the mount for the throttle position sensor. It seems to be more than fine with only one bolt holding it on.
(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_rails_02.jpg)
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(http://www.bitblender.com/images/track_e30/engine/itb_rails_02.jpg)
Awesome looking! Is this the stock M42 fuel injector rail? How available are these ITB's from M3's? I'm VERY interested in following the same route you are going...
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Awesome looking! Is this the stock M42 fuel injector rail? How available are these ITB's from M3's? I'm VERY interested in following the same route you are going...
The top rail is the M42 injector control bar, the middle rail is the cut'n'shut M3 fuel rail, and the lower rail is the M3 cut'n'shut vacuum rail.
The ITB's come up on ebay over here fairly often. I got mine for £100gbp, but I think I got a bit of a bargain as they seem to go more regulary for around the £200 - £300gbp mark. Heres a set - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-e36-evo-m3-throttle-bodies-fuel-rail-injectors_W0QQitemZ130221210866QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10374QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-e36-evo-m3-throttle-bodies-fuel-rail-injectors_W0QQitemZ130221210866QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10374QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)