M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: jfdublyu on April 30, 2006, 11:53:58 AM
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so i finally got a newer tranny in along with a 9lb JB racing FW from TMS. Let me just say that the car feels like it just lost about 300+ lbs! this thing is awesome, especially in first and second gear acceleration. first gear makes the car feel completely new, especially below 3500rpm. very noticable increase in acceleration below 3500rpm as a result in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th gear. Where i used to stay in 3rd to have power to go up small hills w/o losing speed or having to go WOT in 4th, i can now go up in 4th and barely accelerate in the 2500rpm range, it's so awesome! My first night on I-95 I ran at 85+ w/ 3-4 other cars messing around and I loved the better response in fifth gear so i didn't have to downshift into 4th as often, and when i did downshift the shifts were a whole lot smoother and granted quicker and less inhibiting access to the m42's higher powerband. My only reget is that I didn't do this mod sooner. I have quite a few mods on my car that claim 3-15hp increases, but they were all held back and extremely overshadowed by the "dual-crap" factory steel "driving miss daisy" like acceleration flywheel. the beast known as m42b18 has been officially unleashed. now for that 3.91lsd...
Driveability:
I drive this car every day probably more than anyone else drive's theirs due to my long distance work commute, and I can cope w/ the changes. the only setback is the slight chatter or whatever it's called due to single mass flywheels inability to dampen vibration on a solid hub clutch disc. I only really noticed this chatter in 2nd and 3rd gear when i let off of the gas pedal between 3500rpm and about 2500rpm. if the wind is in your face you won't even hear it, the same w/ some tunes blasting, and idle isn't bad unless you're outside of the car, but no louder than the ticking of a 325's tappets.
i don't care what conversion you do, but if you want to upgrade your m42 at all, make this the top of your list right now if you haven't done it already. i would only second this mod to a performance chip. the chip and LW FW will completely transform the m42. if you love it now, you will scream with joy everytime you drive it after the upgrades. definitely a MUST for tuning this bimmer!
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well dang, I guess I need to get the 323 TOB quick!! How light is your flywheel?
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9lbs of beautiful aluminum
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cool, I am trying to figure out how low I can go w/ the 325i flywheel shaving ;) I was thinking somewhere btw 8-12ish
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link to purchase?
was this an m42 specific fly, or m20 upgrade?
9lb, shit, that makes the 19lb m40 fly seem not worth the effort.
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uh it's definitely an m42 specific b/c they sent me the m20 one first and was wrong, so i had to ship it back and have the right one next day aired. A side note to those thinking about BMP, they take like 2-3 weeks to complete an order for one b/c they don't stock them. If you want one from them (which is cheaper than the JB Racing one I bought) then you need to order a good 4 weeks before you really want it just to be safe. I got mine off of Turner Motorsport, but i think Bimmerworld also sells JB Racing ones. BMP does there own as far as I know, and Bavauto doesn't have a distibutor anymore for them so they can't sell you one.
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oh, and i did some research on the flywheel chatter and found something on UUC's website: "UUC recommends a specific mix of transmission fluids, 1 bottle Redline 75W-140NS and 1 bottle Redline D4 ATF." They say that this mix eliminated 90% of the chatter. they sell flywheels for the later 3-series models. i will work on getting this mix in my tranny to see, if it doesn't improve, then at least i know i have some awesome tranny fluid in there, i love redline products
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Did it look like this one?
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this sounds like a great mod... when people talk about converting an engine horsepower figure to wheel horsepower... they estimate 15% (or so) reduction for driveline losses... I would bet that a chunk of that is because of the flywheel...
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Damnit, that sounds sweet; you're making me want one :D Getting one to Australia cheaply will be a mission though
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Did it look like this one?
more or less, to see it exactly click here http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=520040
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wow, this is kinda crying out for a group buy...
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wow, this is kinda crying out for a group buy...
Too rich for my blood :(
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Sounds awesome! I've been wanting an Alumi FW since the day i bought my car, but suspension is gonna have to come first for me--floating around like a 75 Caddy!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Froos
Did it look like this one?
more or less, to see it exactly click here http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...DUCT_ID=520040
Cheers for that link, the pic I posted is a M&S -Motorsport lightweight flywheel 7 kilo's for a 318i M40 engine, since it is possible to swap a M40 clutch/flywheel i recon this could work. Comments please
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Too rich for my blood :(
http://www.ehow.com/how_110908_sell-plasma.html
The link above might help :)
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http://www.ehow.com/how_110908_sell-plasma.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_110908_sell-plasma.html)
The link above might help :)
lol, thats one way to get through college. I'm glad I don't have to.
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http://www.ehow.com/how_110908_sell-plasma.html
The link above might help :)
[...dying laughing...]
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Cheers for that link, the pic I posted is a M&S -Motorsport lightweight flywheel 7 kilo's for a 318i M40 engine, since it is possible to swap a M40 clutch/flywheel i recon this could work. Comments please
The stock M40 flywheel is around 9.7kg and you can shave at least another 2kg off it.
Using an M40 flywheel means you need to use the M40 clutch which has the benefit of a sprung centre so no chatter.
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http://www.ehow.com/how_110908_sell-plasma.html
The link above might help :)
LOL!!!:D
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lol this is one of those mods you save up for... i want it i want i wa...
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Does anyone know whether a lighter flywheel will put more stress on other driveline components? (ie driveshaft, diff, etc)
Everyone says that acceleration increases with a lightened flywheel; if the engine is capable of turning these components more quickly, wouldn't this mean more stress is placed on them as a result?
I understand that power output of the engine doesn't change, but more force is passed on to the driveline now because there is 5kg less weight soaking up these forces?
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Does anyone know whether a lighter flywheel will put more stress on other driveline components? (ie driveshaft, diff, etc)
Everyone says that acceleration increases with a lightened flywheel; if the engine is capable of turning these components more quickly, wouldn't this mean more stress is placed on them as a result?
I understand that power output of the engine doesn't change, but more force is passed on to the driveline now because there is 5kg less weight soaking up these forces?
That's a good point, but I would guess that if everything south of the tranny is in good shape, you shouldn't have any problems. Make sure your diff is working well and no leaks, check your guibo (not Febi Guibo :cool: ), and centre support bearing.
I'm going with the M20 flywheel conversion simply because of the relative low cost and sprung clutch should eliminate any of this "chatter". BTW, did the fluid change in the tranny fix the chatter problem?? Would love to see a report on this.
People keep scaring me when I tell them I'm converting to a single mass. I hear everything from "It won't idle right because of the harmonic balancer", "you're gonna stall it all the time", and "driving in traffic will be a real pisser"... This all makes me uneasy, but I still think that stock flywheel is SO heavy you could reduce the weight easily in 1/2 or more without any significant drivability issues.
Hearing about good results with a 9 lb flywheel gives me some comfort in knowing I shouldn't have any problems with a 16 lb flywheel. :D
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Well, I'm saving up for the 9 lb FW. However, my main concern is the driving in traffic issue.
I do encounter considerable traffic to-from work and was wondering if anyone can describe what exactly I'm going to encounter.
If anyone can chime in I'd appreciate it. :)
Thanks,
Chris
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wow, this is kinda crying out for a group buy...
im so down
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hey guys. driving in traffic isn't barely tougher w/ the 9lb than w/ the the stocker! all this talk about really annoying chatter and stalling out all the time is just not true. I was living in DC when I got my 9lb installed and drove over 120 miles a day and about 45min each day of stop and go traffic. It's is no big deal at all. If you want the most performance than go all the way and go for the aluminum. it really is 100% worth it. the slight chatter here and there is nothing compared to the performance benefits
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So how many people have thought about getting the m20 aluminum flywheel and m20 clutch.
To me there are three variables that would make this much better then just the m42 aluminum flywheel.
1. Its cheaper
2. You get a sprung clutch, absorbs initial impact and reduces chatter.
3. Its a clutch for a 6cyl, it holds more torque!
I still dont understand why I've never seen anybody ask this question.
Another thing I thought of the other day is the fact that I have read about people putting e36 m3 flywheels and clutches into 318ti's as seen here http://www.understeer.com/318ti.shtml
"That was cured with a 240mm clutch from a '96+ M3. Of course you need a M3 flywheel to go with the larger clutch, so we chose an aluminum M3 flywheel from TC Kline. The flywheel is made by Fidanza Flywheels and weighs in at 11.5lbs vs the stock 27lbs. Now when you launch hard the motor just bogs down"
27lb flywheel sure sounds familier.
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This information is also on the understeer site.
"How can I upgrade the clutch in my 318/323/325/328?
Sachs makes sport clutches for most E36 models, however they can be very expensive compared to the standard Sachs clutch kits. The E36 M3 clutch has very good clamping force (~350hp) and can be purchased for about $240 from bimmerparts.com. The trick is you'll need an M3 flywheel to match. Your options are either an aftermarket aluminum lightweight M3 flywheel or an OEM M3 dual mass flywheel. With the aluminum M3 flywheel your car will accelerate much quicker through first and second gears because of the reduced rotating mass, but you may experience some rattling from the tranny at idle in neutral. Any E36 M3 flywheel will bolt right up to any other E36 motor with no modification or fabrication needed, just bolt it on. I'd recommend a '96+ 3.2L M3 clutch kit instead of a '95 M3 clutch kit due to changes in the pressure plate. If you have a 318 or a 1.9L Z3, you'll need to buy a '96 M3 clutch release fork. You should also install an E36 M3 (any year) clutch slave cylinder to reduce pedal effort."
Just thought of one more thing. When I was doing research on s50/s52 swaps I remember them saying you could use the tranny from our cars behind that engine to get you by stead of buying an m3 tranny. So wouldnt that also support the idea that you can use the m3 flywheel and clutch in our cars?
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Just thought of one more thing. When I was doing research on s50/s52 swaps I remember them saying you could use the tranny from our cars behind that engine to get you by stead of buying an m3 tranny. So wouldnt that also support the idea that you can use the m3 flywheel and clutch in our cars?
you bring up a good point...i hope someone has had some experience with this because this could change a lot of things!
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That's my thinking exactly. The aliminum FW is cool, but I think ultimately best for the track; plus I am not too sure about its reliability.
I'm waiting for my clutch to need replacing, and then I am going to do the m20 conversion.
Speaking of which . . . at what mileage do clutches usually need replacing with these cars?
So how many people have thought about getting the m20 aluminum flywheel and m20 clutch.
To me there are three variables that would make this much better then just the m42 aluminum flywheel.
1. Its cheaper
2. You get a sprung clutch, absorbs initial impact and reduces chatter.
3. Its a clutch for a 6cyl, it holds more torque!
I still dont understand why I've never seen anybody ask this question.
Another thing I thought of the other day is the fact that I have read about people putting e36 m3 flywheels and clutches into 318ti's as seen here http://www.understeer.com/318ti.shtml
"That was cured with a 240mm clutch from a '96+ M3. Of course you need a M3 flywheel to go with the larger clutch, so we chose an aluminum M3 flywheel from TC Kline. The flywheel is made by Fidanza Flywheels and weighs in at 11.5lbs vs the stock 27lbs. Now when you launch hard the motor just bogs down"
27lb flywheel sure sounds familier.
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I have been doing some more research on using the M3 Clutch and Flywheel in our cars and have found some interesting information. I talked to the guy over at Understeer and he said that the M3 Aluminum Flywheel and Clutch fits right into e36's with the M42 and M44. He did not know if it would work or not on the e30 M42 because of different trannys.
I then proceded to check a few things. I know that people said that the getrag 240 tranny can be used when swapping s50's into e30's. Therefore we know that the bellhousing on our getrag 240 has the same bolt patern, and dimentions as the e36 M3.
One thing I know for sure is the e30 m42 tranny is different then the e36 m42 /m44 tranny (from the outside, just looking at them)
Second thing I checked was the flywheel and clutch kit for the e36 318is and 318ti and guess what, its the same exact part numbers as the flywheel and clutch kit for our e30 m42 engine/getrag 240
The third thing I checked was to make sure the pinion gears on the starters between the e30 m42, the e36 m42/m44 and the e36 m3 were the same. And they were.
So... since everything is the same it should work right? We should technically be able to put say a 95 m3 clutch and flywheel into our cars.
Are their any variables im missing?
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is a 95 m3 clutch and flywheel cheaper or something?
also is it year specific for the M3 parts?
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Its not really cheaper, just has more surface area and allows you to (if you get the sachs heavy duty clutch) have a sprung hub clutch disc
M3 clutch can hold 350 ft-lbs of torque, and would also last much longer.
I just think your getting more for your money if the m3 clutch/flywheel works out.
Damn I would just like to see a s50 that someone has laying in their garage, with a clutch/flywheel on it. I have a getrag 240 sitting in my living room, that would answer some questions really quick.
I dont believe its year specific. You just have to make sure your flywheel is ment for your clutch. (example, you cant use a 95 s50 m3 flywheel and a 98 s52 m3 clutch kit)
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Are their any variables im missing?
clutch cilinder is different, you should use E36, o lenghten E30 rod (cut apart and weld inside bolt) about 4cm but better way is to make it adjustable because 1 mm make huge difference. Also bearing (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF91&mospid=47256&btnr=11_1151&hg=11&fg=20) No5 which is fitted in crankshaft has different inner diameter, it depends on production year.
And you should cut one peace from gearbox, which will not let you to fit lambda sensor.
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If im using the same tranny just a different clutch and flywheel why would I need to worry about the pilot bearing or clearance with the oxygen "lambda" sensor?
Have you done this before?
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i think we need a group buy in a few months..
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If im using the same tranny just a different clutch and flywheel why would I need to worry about the pilot bearing or clearance with the oxygen "lambda" sensor?
Have you done this before?
his sig says "close ratio gearbox" he must have a Z3 or e36 318 box.
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so here is jb racing's e30 m42 flywheel compaired to a 95-99 m3 flywheel.
Looks like it will work, the size rating is for clutch diameter and not flywheel diameter so it looks like it would work.
I'll take more clutch surface area and 80 bucks cheaper :)
(http://www.jbracing.com/images/products/520-040-215.jpg)(http://www.jbracing.com/images/products/520-010-240.jpg)
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his sig says "close ratio gearbox" he must have a Z3 or e36 318 box.
you are right,
maybe I misunderstud you zerofreez
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so here is jb racing's e30 m42 flywheel compaired to a 95-99 m3 flywheel.
Looks like it will work, the size rating is for clutch diameter and not flywheel diameter so it looks like it would work.
I'll take more clutch surface area and 80 bucks cheaper :)
(http://www.jbracing.com/images/products/520-040-215.jpg)(http://www.jbracing.com/images/products/520-010-240.jpg)
woah nice!
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I have the BMP 9 pounder, and driving in traffic is no problem other than not being able to go anywhere. To me, the chatter is very minimal and I hardly hear it with the stereo on, and I don't have the volumn up very much. As for stalling, that hasn't happened to me yet! This is by far the best mod I did for this car. If it's a matter of a chip or FW, I would go with the FW and get the chip later. Driveability is not affected IMO, and I've had it in my car since Feb of this year. However, the FW is made for the M42 and the OEM clutch, so I don't know what problems other versions will manifest.
Since I had the FW, I was able to take my class at autox rather easily, and I also had a 1 sec quicker time over an M3 during track day. The car spools up very quickly, and you can actually feel the pull. My only regret is I waited too long to do this, and our track has been closed since April! :(
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so i need a new clutch fairly soon, and money is a big deal since i am saving for IE3s/Bilsteins and some rubber. What would be the best combo for price and performance? i dont need ULTRA light but i def. want an improvement over stock.
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Good Morning Everyone,
I hear a lot of good things about going with the LWFW. However, uncertain future plans with my M42 have put my project on hold, mainly because I dont know what I will be doing with her (engine performance).
My plan is to keep the 318 for a long time. So my question for the forum is how adaptable is the LWFW with the following performance choices:
1) Stock (maybe a chip!) I guess this has already been answered. Seems like its a 100% improvement.
2) M42 dream engine ala Febi Guibo will the aluminum 9lb LWFW work with this engine?
3) M42 DASC same question as above will it work?
4) M42 Turbo same as above
5) S50/S52 besides being banned from the forum, will the FW fit?
Thank you,
Chris
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any updates on the m3 clutch?
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No. I wish I had some money to figure it out. I suppose I could try and see if the parts dept will order me a e36 m3 flywheel so just so I can look at it. But then again I dont even have a m42 flywheel to compare it to unless I take mine out.
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I HIGHLY reccomend the Metric Mechanic 10.9 lb single mass flywheel and 228 HD sprung clutch option for these cars.
It's a bolt in option and no need to mess with starter gears or spacing rings. It's a no brainer.
It's great!!!! :D
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The following quote is from an email I received from MM about LFW:
Hi Chris,
The lightened flywheel for your car is a great performance modification. Unfortunately the flywheel in your car is a dual mass flywheel, which can not be lightened. What we sell is a E30 325is flywheel. This flywheel weighs about 20-23 lbs from the factory. Our lightened flywheel weighs about 10-12 lbs. With our flywheel you also need a clutch & pressure plate kit to go along with the flywheel. This setup is a perfect plug and play kit with no other modification needed. In the end you will get rid of the dual mass 28 lb flywheel for a lightened single mass flywheel. The kit sells for $700 and includes the flywheel, a 228mm clutch disc, 325 pressure plate & release bearing. We would need your ring gear from your flywheel or if you don't want your car down that long, we could send you the flywheel first and charge you a $100 core deposit until we receive your ring gear from you, at which time we refund your core deposit (assuming it is a useable core). If we can help you, give us a call at 573-765-1269.
Thanks!
Regards,
Court
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The following quote is from an email I received from MM about LFW:
Hi Chris,
The lightened flywheel for your car is a great performance modification. Unfortunately the flywheel in your car is a dual mass flywheel, which can not be lightened. What we sell is a E30 325is flywheel. This flywheel weighs about 20-23 lbs from the factory. Our lightened flywheel weighs about 10-12 lbs. With our flywheel you also need a clutch & pressure plate kit to go along with the flywheel. This setup is a perfect plug and play kit with no other modification needed. In the end you will get rid of the dual mass 28 lb flywheel for a lightened single mass flywheel. The kit sells for $700 and includes the flywheel, a 228mm clutch disc, 325 pressure plate & release bearing. We would need your ring gear from your flywheel or if you don't want your car down that long, we could send you the flywheel first and charge you a $100 core deposit until we receive your ring gear from you, at which time we refund your core deposit (assuming it is a useable core). If we can help you, give us a call at 573-765-1269.
Thanks!
Regards,
Court
A lightweight flywheel from bmp is more cost effective...a 9lb flywheel for $500 is a plug and play install as well. While this is a 10-12lb flywheel for $200 more.
i dont see the point in going that route.
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the problem with the aluminium flywheel is durability... when I was out at MM (court is THE MAN btw) they had a bunch of relatively low mileage aluminium flywheels lying around (around 20k mi) that looked like ass... pitted to hell, worn teeth, etc. They were pulled from customer's cars and replaced with a setup similar to what shellback is describing. Doc Sheepdog can verify what I'm talking about.
I have the MM lightened / resurfaced steel flywheel and it's half the weight of stock and totally driveable in NYC traffic (eg, when I'm stuck on the Belt Parkway driving to denis' place!!)
also, note that the $700 MM price includes a new sachs sport clutch and throwout bearing.
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the problem with the aluminium flywheel is durability... when I was out at MM (court is THE MAN btw) they had a bunch of relatively low mileage aluminium flywheels lying around (around 20k mi) that looked like ass... pitted to hell, worn teeth, etc. They were pulled from customer's cars and replaced with a setup similar to what shellback is describing. Doc Sheepdog can verify what I'm talking about.
I have the MM lightened / resurfaced steel flywheel and it's half the weight of stock and totally driveable in NYC traffic (eg, when I'm stuck on the Belt Parkway driving to denis' place!!)
also, note that the $700 MM price includes a new sachs sport clutch and throwout bearing.
how bad can it be?? i mean im not gonna be separating the tranny and the motor just to take a look at how the flywheel is doing. It doesn't really matter to me how it looks..as long as its doing what it has to do then thats fine with me. however, the worn teeth is a concern for me, i wouldn't want the flywheel to be skipping a beat.
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how bad can it be?? i mean im not gonna be separating the tranny and the motor just to take a look at how the flywheel is doing. It doesn't really matter to me how it looks...
Febi makes a valid point that should be considered. Jim at Metric Mechanic was explaining to me that aluminum is great for racing applications, but not preferable for daily abuse...
And just my $0.02 worth... daily stop and go traffic is actually more abusive on a clutch/flywheel than racing, where it's in-and-out. Riding the clutch in stop and go Atlanta traffic is WAY more abusive! The metalergy of the stock flywheel is built to withstand they day in and day out abuses and reliability of a production car used in all sorts of situations and climates.
I can vouch for what Febi says... the Metric Mechnic solution doesn't present any drivability issues and idles like a fine swiss watch! I'm very pleased with the solution. :D
I'm not saying the aluminum option is bad.. But, I can't reccomend it and personally wouldn't go that route myself.
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Febi makes a valid point that should be considered. Jim at Metric Mechanic was explaining to me that aluminum is great for racing applications, but not preferable for daily abuse...
And just my $0.02 worth... daily stop and go traffic is actually more abusive on a clutch/flywheel than racing, where it's in-and-out. Riding the clutch in stop and go Atlanta traffic is WAY more abusive! The metalergy of the stock flywheel is built to withstand they day in and day out abuses and reliability of a production car used in all sorts of situations and climates.
I can vouch for what Febi says... the Metric Mechnic solution doesn't present any drivability issues and idles like a fine swiss watch! I'm very pleased with the solution. :D
I'm not saying the aluminum option is bad.. But, I can't reccomend it and personally wouldn't go that route myself.
Now if we could only lower that price on the MM flywheel kit it would be a no brainer. Did somebody say groupbuy? ;)
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so is MM using the 325 TOB? thats what it looks like in that email.
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so is MM using the 325 TOB? thats what it looks like in that email.
Yes. Actually, the price isn't too bad considering the cost of the flywheel and the Sport clutch together is almost the cost of the JB aluminum flywheel alone.
But, I'd call Metric Mechanic and see if they will do a group buy. If I were a bettin' man, I'd guess they would. :cool:
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this is from someone who was trying an s50 swap on their 318
Ok fellas the e36 M3 Pressure Plate wont fit inside the getrag 240 so i ended up going with the 318is clutch and pressure plate for now its brand new ,i am wondering how long it will last.
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Wow, this sounds like an awesome mod. Dont know if Id like the chatter aspect of it though. When it comes time to do a clutch I think Im just going to go the m20 flywheel route.
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Okay, here's some pics of the Metric Mechanic lightened single mass flywheel and 228mm Sachs Sport clutch kit I installed.
It weighs in a 10.9 lbs and has no drivability issues. Much better response.
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/DSC00518.jpg)
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/DSC00522.jpg)
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ok to clear things up with the 95 M3 flywheel...
in order to have this flywheel in our transmission, it must be paired up with a 240mm clutch. Correct?
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it wont work
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it wont work
how are you so sure?
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becaue there was some guy that tried the setup when he put an s50 in his 318. the PP is too big for the bell housing i posted the quote a few posts up