M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: Petebee on January 13, 2008, 01:45:24 PM
-
Okay so I remove my valve cover to take a look at the timing chain sprockets. Based on what I've seen here these look pretty worn (pointed). My gut is that the tensioner has never been replaced on this engine (120K). What do you guys think?
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/petebee/DSC00117.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/petebee/DSC00118.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/petebee/DSC00121.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/petebee/DSC00122.jpg)
The head does look pretty clean without any sludge.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/petebee/DSC00114.jpg)
Thanks for your help!
Pete
-
Those don't look good . If you look at the tensioner you should see if it's the original.Check this out.
http://www.rimblas.com/tech/archives/2005/08/updated_m42_tim.html
-
Those don't look good . If you look at the tensioner you should see if it's the original.Check this out.
http://www.rimblas.com/tech/archives/2005/08/updated_m42_tim.html
Thanks for the link. I'm thinking that I should just bite the bullet and get this fixed. Anyone have an idea on how much labor $ this might be with a good mechanic (there is a good independent BMW mechanic local)?
For parts is this what I need?
Timing chain
Cam sprockets
Crank sprocket
Tensioner
Should I go ahead and have all of the chain guides replaced at the same time? What about any gaskets?
I'm thinking this could be a $1000 repair before all is said and done. The engine has been well maintained other than the chain (oil changed religiously every 3K and all major services stamped in the book) and it seems to run fine.
I don't think anyone (BMW dealers included) every thought about maintenance on these chains. Ugh! :mad:
-
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/petebee/DSC00117.jpg)
For comparison, mine at 140k. It wasn't nearly as clean but the sprockets are still ok. What kind of oil are you using? Mine lived on a steady diet of cheap oil changed every 3k miles by the previous owner. I use 5w40 synthetic every 7-8k miles. Its slowly getting cleaned up.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2100/2189931875_fcc99767bb_o.jpg)
-
For comparison, mine at 140k. It wasn't nearly as clean but the sprockets are still ok. What kind of oil are you using? Mine lived on a steady diet of cheap oil changed every 3k miles by the previous owner. I use 5w40 synthetic every 7-8k miles. Its slowly getting cleaned up.
I think it was regular oil...non-synthetic I mean. Not sure what grade.
-
http://www.bimmerclassics.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3473 current prices for required parts.
-
Thanks for the link. I'm thinking that I should just bite the bullet and get this fixed. Anyone have an idea on how much labor $ this might be with a good mechanic (there is a good independent BMW mechanic local)?
For parts is this what I need?
Timing chain
Cam sprockets
Crank sprocket
Tensioner
Should I go ahead and have all of the chain guides replaced at the same time? What about any gaskets?
I'm thinking this could be a $1000 repair before all is said and done. The engine has been well maintained other than the chain (oil changed religiously every 3K and all major services stamped in the book) and it seems to run fine.
I don't think anyone (BMW dealers included) every thought about maintenance on these chains. Ugh! :mad:
You're going to want new gaskets for sure, I would look at the guides before you buy all new ones. When the chain gets worn out it starts slapping around and that's what wears the guides out. If there isn't any ticking (kinda sounds like a diesel) after the engine is driven hard and everything's nice and hot there shouldn't be much wear on the guides. From the look of your sprockets you'll need to replace all of them, maybe not the idler sprocket. You probably want a new tensioner if it hasn't been replaced lately as well.
Timing chain isn't particularly difficult, it just takes a lot of work. Don't buy the parts from BMW, go online to Pellican Parts you can get everything you need for around $400. BMA is also good for any parts Pellican doesn't have but the little bit of searching is better than paying over $600 through a BMW dealer.
If you have access to tools I would just do it yourself, it's a straight forward job and you can knock it out in a weekend and save yourself at least $500 on labor. You can borrow a camshaft holder from someone on here. The crankshaft pulley is tough but there's step by step directions for everything. Let me know if you want some good websites for procedures.
-
You're going to want new gaskets for sure, I would look at the guides before you buy all new ones. When the chain gets worn out it starts slapping around and that's what wears the guides out. If there isn't any ticking (kinda sounds like a diesel) after the engine is driven hard and everything's nice and hot there shouldn't be much wear on the guides. From the look of your sprockets you'll need to replace all of them, maybe not the idler sprocket. You probably want a new tensioner if it hasn't been replaced lately as well.
Timing chain isn't particularly difficult, it just takes a lot of work. Don't buy the parts from BMW, go online to Pellican Parts you can get everything you need for around $400. BMA is also good for any parts Pellican doesn't have but the little bit of searching is better than paying over $600 through a BMW dealer.
If you have access to tools I would just do it yourself, it's a straight forward job and you can knock it out in a weekend and save yourself at least $500 on labor. You can borrow a camshaft holder from someone on here. The crankshaft pulley is tough but there's step by step directions for everything. Let me know if you want some good websites for procedures.
Thanks for the help. Other than a breaker bar and a puller for the crank pulley (I have a two prong puller) do I need anything other than sockets, wrenches and a torque wrench? I've seen the cam holder post, so I'll ask to borrow this tool.
Please provide as many websites for doing this. I've checked out Purcell's (??) site, but it somewhat glosses over some of the steps. I've never replaced a timing chain, as my experience is with 8V watercooled VWs.
Will I be impacting the crank position sensor with this repair? This seems pretty critical to me, as car won't run if you mess this up. Also, if mechanical timing is off a tooth or two, will I run the risk of valve/piston contact?
Oh...and do I need to remove the hood?
Do the later model Bentleys cover the 1.8L 16V engine? I have the 3 series 1984-1990 which doesn't include this engine. I'd feel more comfortable with a Bentley as the pictures help immensely.
Appreciate the help!
-
No puller needed for the crank pulley...it just slides off/on.
Get a Bentley E36 manual and the link to the online factory manual (in ref section).
Oh... one more thing, make sure you get the proper longer fillister head bolt for the guide rail... p/n 07119919629
The old bolt does not fit the new style guide rail...it's too short.
The other bolts you can reuse.
-
ive got an e30 restoration book that covers this..if you need it let me know..
-
ive got an e30 restoration book that covers this..if you need it let me know..
Hey you are in Mooresville! Wanna help me do this :D
Seriously I would love to borrow the book and actually show you my car to assess other stuff (suspension, a few noises, etc.).
My plan is to auto-x this car so I want to get everything in decent order before I hit the track...er parking lot.
-
My local mechanic quoted me $400 for the labor at the BMW spec of an 8 hour job. I would say that is pretty accurate as it took me two Saturdays to complete.
As for the new guide rail, mine came with the new bolt. I got it from BMA.
Also make sure you get a new crank bolt, its not supposed to be reused.
Don't worry about finding websites with more detailed info, the Bentley is a great resource that you can take into your garage and reference there.
Here is a list of all the parts with P/N and prices I payed. Most everything is from BMA. The only thing that is not listed in this post is the top guide rail. I forgot to include it. It totals $670. You could skimp on some of the parts but you will probably find that its a good time to replace things like water pumps and thermostat housings.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=96062&page=2 (http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=96062&page=2)
I also purchased the cam holder from ebay for $90 shipped, thats in addition to the $670 for the timing parts.
-
Really?? Then I got screwed cause mine didn't come with one (I also got it from BMA).
My local mechanic quoted me $400 for the labor at the BMW spec of an 8 hour job. I would say that is pretty accurate as it took me two Saturdays to complete.
As for the new guide rail, mine came with the new bolt. I got it from BMA.
Also make sure you get a new crank bolt, its not supposed to be reused.
Don't worry about finding websites with more detailed info, the Bentley is a great resource that you can take into your garage and reference there.
Here is a list of all the parts with P/N and prices I payed. Most everything is from BMA. The only thing that is not listed in this post is the top guide rail. I forgot to include it. It totals $670. You could skimp on some of the parts but you will probably find that its a good time to replace things like water pumps and thermostat housings.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=96062&page=2 (http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=96062&page=2)
I also purchased the cam holder from ebay for $90 shipped, thats in addition to the $670 for the timing parts.
-
Okay so I remove my valve cover to take a look at the timing chain sprockets. Based on what I've seen here these look pretty worn (pointed). My gut is that the tensioner has never been replaced on this engine (120K). What do you guys think?
Thanks for your help!
Pete
Looks about right to me.
Mine was similar.
If you intend to leave it a bit, make damn sure the pan bolts are in place and that the pickup screen is intact. Odds are you are breaking rollers on your chain.
Just doing the tensioner at this point may do more harm than good.
Also, you may or may not need to replace the guides. Mine were in great shape.
-
Looks about right to me.
Mine was similar.
If you intend to leave it a bit, make damn sure the pan bolts are in place and that the pickup screen is intact. Odds are you are breaking rollers on your chain.
Just doing the tensioner at this point may do more harm than good.
Also, you may or may not need to replace the guides. Mine were in great shape.
I plan to pull the pan soon to check the bolts and the screen. If everything there is good (or tightened/replaced) am I good for a while. I agree with the tensioner...replacing it now is probably not a good idea.
I will fix this, but am I safe for a while? My wife is going to kill me :D
I got to meet Mdiddy last night and we compared the sounds of our cars. They are eerily similar. Both have a little valve train tick (maybe a dirty lifter) and both have a definite whirring sound when you put your ear on the valve cover over the front of the engine above the chain.
When he pulled his v/c the sprockets weren't as worn as mine...his engine has approx 140K.
Plus I got to drive his coupe with Bilstein Sports/BAV springs. Wow. I'd rather spend on these right now as mine has the original, floaty, worn suspension.
-
I plan to pull the pan soon to check the bolts and the screen. If everything there is good (or tightened/replaced) am I good for a while. I agree with the tensioner...replacing it now is probably not a good idea.
I will fix this, but am I safe for a while? My wife is going to kill me :D
I got to meet Mdiddy last night and we compared the sounds of our cars. They are eerily similar. Both have a little valve train tick (maybe a dirty lifter) and both have a definite whirring sound when you put your ear on the valve cover over the front of the engine above the chain.
When he pulled his v/c the sprockets weren't as worn as mine...his engine has approx 140K.
Plus I got to drive his coupe with Bilstein Sports/BAV springs. Wow. I'd rather spend on these right now as mine has the original, floaty, worn suspension.
Should be ok for a while.
If there is no metal chips in the pan from the chain, I would replace the tensioner.
-
Should be ok for a while.
If there is no metal chips in the pan from the chain, I would replace the tensioner.
Thanks Sheepdog...I'll order a lower pan gasket and pull it to check. If no metal then I'll replace the tensioner.
The engine whirrs, and doesn't rattle at the timing chain area when rev'd.
-
How about a Metric Mechanic single row timing chain conversion?
-
How about a Metric Mechanic single row timing chain conversion?
i never really understood why one would want to do that. sure its a little less mass, but i'd rather have a dual chain settup...
-
i never really understood why one would want to do that. sure its a little less mass, but i'd rather have a dual chain settup...
2 chains > 1 chain, no?
-
Not always.
The lighter mass translates into less whipping of the chain. Plus, it may be of higher strength. It may not be any weaker. It will definitely run more efficient.
-
Not always.
The lighter mass translates into less whipping of the chain. Plus, it may be of higher strength. It may not be any weaker. It will definitely run more efficient.
I agree it will run more efficient do to less whippage and rotating mass but there has got to be a reason bmw made it a dual chain instead of a single chain. like, a single chain would be more prone to stretching.
-
Double row has been the standard for a long time.
Materials have improved.
Besides, if a belt can survive, a chain can.
I think a lot of it also goes back to how a v8 is built. The cam drives the oil pump, fuel pump, and ignition. Once those are taken out of the equation there is a lot less strength needed to spin the cam.
I was not so sure of the idea at first, but the more I have thought about it, the more it makes sense that we really do not need it.
-
Double row has been the standard for a long time.
Materials have improved.
Besides, if a belt can survive, a chain can.
I think a lot of it also goes back to how a v8 is built. The cam drives the oil pump, fuel pump, and ignition. Once those are taken out of the equation there is a lot less strength needed to spin the cam.
I was not so sure of the idea at first, but the more I have thought about it, the more it makes sense that we really do not need it.
A belt is built to be replaced fairly frequently compared to a chain though.
the several 350's i've rebuilt have had the chain only driving the cam. however i suppose its driving overhead lifters with rockers and such.
I duno, its a hard thing for me to commit too especially considering that the materials haven't changed unless the single row chain is made of a different material?
-
A belt is built to be replaced fairly frequently compared to a chain though.
the several 350's i've rebuilt have had the chain only driving the cam. however i suppose its driving overhead lifters with rockers and such.
I duno, its a hard thing for me to commit too especially considering that the materials haven't changed unless the single row chain is made of a different material?
It would not surprise me if the single row is of better material.
Double rows came into being back when all of those things were driven by the cam. Today v8's have distributor less ignition and, electronic fuel pumps.
Even then a good single row should have worked. As for longevity...
Many belts are spec'ed to go 100k (though it is B/S). Chains do go longer, but you cannot tell me that a single row is weaker than a belt. Besides, belts break down over time, chains just wear.