M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
FAQ / REFERENCE => How-To's => Topic started by: jfdublyu on April 23, 2006, 08:17:42 PM
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Whatsup guys? I was checking out the Blackforest Industries Site (formerly Lowen Design) and was looking in their tech articles and found a DIY for the M20 flywheel conversion. It's a very good write-up with part numbers of required items and a lot of pics. here's the link: http://www.blackforestindustries.com/m20flywheel.htm
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very nice write up! They have the same PN listed for the TO bearing and starter pinion though.
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its the TO bearing
http://realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?part=21+51+1+204+525&showus=on&showeur=on
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very nice write up! They have the same PN listed for the TO bearing and starter pinion though.
Yes, that's the same article that everyone just reposts from 1998. Is there nothing newer with pics? And, yeah, I noticed the wrong part number too. You'd think someone would have fixed that along the way, but like I said, everyone's just reposting the same old crap. :mad:
I may work on updating this as I'll be putting in an M20 flywheel in my M42 over the next few weeks. I'll try to at least take some pics.
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i'm not worried about the quality. I gave in and bought the JB Racing 9lb. aluminum flywheel from TMS. But to my good fortune they charged me for the cheaper 323i flywheel and sent me the wrong one. Wait, how is this good, you ask? Well i told them they sent me the wrong one and they are now sending me the right one next day air and not charging me extra difference of the higher cost for the one I wanted (the m42). so long and short of it, I got the 9lb LWFL shipped in two days from order for $488, when it should have been around $600! It's going in tomorrow and will be ready by friday.
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are all m20 flywheels the same weight?
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are all m20 flywheels the same weight?
They are "roughly" 16 lbs. All will be the same when new, but age and how much you mill it down will alter the weight. I just simply had mine resurfaced and cleaned it a little.
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damn, has anyone fround a good source for the TO bearing? its listed for $67 on BMA!!!
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and does anyone have the actual part numbers for the flywheel and the rest? Thinking that i'll be doing this when i shoehorn an m42 in..
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damn, has anyone fround a good source for the TO bearing? its listed for $67 on BMA!!!
You will, unfortunately, just have to suck it up. I paid $50 for mine about 2 years ago. I was calling around and one dealer, after checking his system, said that there were only like 9 or 16 units left in the entire US (within the dealer system). Could explain the price.
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http://www.autohausaz.com for the pinion and TOB. Pinion was 9 bucks, TOB was 56, i think
Not all flywheels are singles mass! Only the 88 to 91 325i/is models had single mass. Drops to 12lbs from 23lbs, and a HUGE improvement. Makes downshifting to second in the wet fun :smile:
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I went down to a parts house here in melbourne today and got what i think are the part numbers for everything - these should be confirmed first though!
323i release bearing # 21 51 1 204 525
M20 Clutch Disc # 21 21 1 223 643
M20 Pressure Plate # 21 21 1 225 852
325i Single mass fly # 11 22 1 716 276
325i starter pinion gear # 12 41 1 268 370
hope thats of help...
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I'm selling a complete M20 flywheel/clutch conversion kit. All same part numbers listed above.
I could not make it work in my car. I'm putting in an M42 dual mass. Maybe whoever buys it can do a halfway decent writeup with pics for the benefit of the rest of thier E30 bretheren... It seems my begging, groveling, countless phone calls, etc... all led to Nowhere. If so many people have done this conversion, how come there is so little information available? LACK OF INFORMATION SUCKS!!!
This is a pretty specific project and if your're spacing is off my 1-2mm, the thing is hosed. No one's mic'ed it, and given specifics. I could probably figure it out with more expertise, time and/or money, but I'm spent and too busy to deal with it. I just need my car back on the road asap!
Whoever wants to try it, contact me via PM. I've got all the parts you need.
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YGPM M42boy
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M42boy - were they all the same P# as the ones i listed? and where abouts did you become undone?
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M42boy - were they all the same P# as the ones i listed? and where abouts did you become undone?
This is the old (new) pinion gear for the M42. The M20 one is in the M42 starter.
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5154.jpg)
This is the starter I pulled the pinion gear from.
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5156.jpg)
Rebuilt Bosch M42 starter (with M20 starter gear). Bosch Part # SR0445X.
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5158.jpg)
I don't know where the problem is, but no one has been able to help or give additional info and I just want to drive my car again.
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Here's the M20 flywheel (resurfaced):
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5092.jpg)
Back of motor (crankshaft/rear main seal)
(http://www.s-cars.org/postnuke/modules/gallery/albums/danh/IMG_5091.jpg)
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The only thing that i can think of is the spacer from the m42 flywheel... did you modify that and put it all back together?
What is the problem with it? car wont start or it wont all fit?
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Starter sounds like it's coming apart. Hitting on something. I was thinking it was catching on the flat metal gasket between the back of the motor and the bell housing, but when I pull out the starter, I don't see anything in the way. Starter makes a horrible noise and the car won't start.
Yes, the M42 spacer ring is on the front of the flywheel with new M20 flywheel bolts!
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um the only thing that i could think of, and its probably a long shot, is that the pinion gear is worn on one or two teeth, and they dont engage with the fly.... The photo was a bit blurly so its hard to see from that. Otherwise i got nothing! Sorry!
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lachlan, id say its easier for us to run with the m40 flywheel swap. heck, you will even have one to spare when you are ready to drop the m42 in.
once i get a clutch, i'l be putting my m40 fly in, i'l let you know how it goes.
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I've thought about that, i just dont like the idea of an m40 clutch. Are they as strong as a M42 one? and there is more out there for the m20...
However I might just do this anyway until i have the cash to get a better one.
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the m40 clutch is a similar size to the m42 piece, from what i can tell.
regardless, i am having a super heavy duty m40 clutch put together that should take any abuse that i can throw at it.
i'l keep you posted.
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Did you do this part?
"You must remove the shift lever, which looks like a wishbone,(part number 8 on the diagram) from the M42 starter pinion gear and attach it to the new M20 starter pinion gear. This is relatively straightforward. See the diagram for details (photo 12)."
(http://www.blackforestindustries.com/pictures/techcontent/12starterdiagram.jpg)
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http://www.autohausaz.com for the pinion and TOB. Pinion was 9 bucks, TOB was 56, i think
Not all flywheels are singles mass! Only the 88 to 91 325i/is models had single mass. Drops to 12lbs from 23lbs, and a HUGE improvement. Makes downshifting to second in the wet fun :smile:
The singlemass M20 FW weighs in at 19lbs, and the M42 stocker is 28.5.
The M42 clutch assembly (PP, clutch disc, FW) weighs 41lbs. The M20 assy weighs 36lbs. Weight-wise it is not sounding too radical. However, the mass on the M20 setup is concentrated closer to the center axis, greatly reducing the polar moment of inertia. So, yes as everyone who has done this knows, it makes a BIG difference in performance. Just though I would add soem actual #'s. Check out http://www.e30tuner.com/rebuild for pics & whatnot. I think the clutch stuff was on pages 6 & 7 or something.
Pinion fro $9?!?! Damn, that is hard to believe!
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hmmm...my guibo is REALLY cracked and I have a new one. Maybe I should put the m20 flywheel on now :) still need the starter gear and 323 TOB though.
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hmmm...my guibo is REALLY cracked and I have a new one. Maybe I should put the m20 flywheel on now :) still need the starter gear and 323 TOB though.
I got both, but don't know what shipping is to the UK. Might be able to get them cheaper locally if you avoid shipping costs.
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I got both, but don't know what shipping is to the UK. Might be able to get them cheaper locally if you avoid shipping costs.
I'm in the US, in NC :D
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M42Boy> Did you put the spacer _between_ the flywheel and the engine?
After reading all the other material on the forum about this conversion that's how i understood it goes in.
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M42Boy> Did you put the spacer _between_ the flywheel and the engine?
After reading all the other material on the forum about this conversion that's how i understood it goes in.
You want to drill out the rivets and pull the spacer off the M42 flywheel to use with the M20.
I'll take pictures of everything this week and post it in the for sale section. I've got to sell some of the pluthera of parts I've got laying around.
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My engine's in, with the M20 clutch kit. E36 M42 converted to E30. :D
My dualmass flywheel didn't have any spacers.
I first bought a singlemass flywheel for which i would have needed a spacer between the flywheel and the engine which was a no go. So i found another flywheel which is about 2kg lighter and fits perfectly. :D
The first pic is of the right flywheel.
Second is of the flywheel which hit the oilpan.
Third is my dualmass M42 flywheel.
Forth is my M40 flywheel. :D
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Note: the right flywheel came off a 2.0 M20.
Now the rest of the pics. Tomorrow i'll do the electrics ad i'll have to see what i'm gonna do with the exhaust, because now none of either my E30 exhaus nor my E36 one fit.
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next
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Electrics are done, engine started. Tomorrow is day 3. Final day. :D
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i know it's an old thread but i have to ask. The Changing of the Flywheels from M20 and M42. i have an E36 M42. I see all this talk of spacers and clutches and such, all i know is my FW weighs an ass load and i know with a lighter one my accelaration would drastically increase. I was looking at buying a light weight one online, but if i can get a less expensive one i'de be interested. Now, when there's all this talk of the clutch change over, whats invloved in all that?
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Does the tranny I plan to use make a difference with the TOB when I do a M20 flywheel conversion? I'm putting a M42 into an E30 325i with the 265 tranny. I'll be using a M20 starter and flywheel. Do I need the 323 TOB?
Thanks!
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I used the 240 tranny and the 316i TOB and it works fine so you shouldn't have to change it.
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I'm going to ask the obvious question which nobody has yet asked .
Can the M20i starter be bolted to the M42 ?
Seems that would cut out the hassle of switching thew gears and potentially run in to other problems .
I'm new to the 4cyl's but looking at pics on WoldPac it seems like they are laid out the same and that they could be interchanged .
If nobody has an answer then I will compare the two soon when I drop my trans .
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I'm going to ask the obvious question which nobody has yet asked .
Can the M20i starter be bolted to the M42 ?
Seems that would cut out the hassle of switching thew gears and potentially run in to other problems .
I'm new to the 4cyl's but looking at pics on WoldPac it seems like they are laid out the same and that they could be interchanged .
If nobody has an answer then I will compare the two soon when I drop my trans .
you bring up a good question there...i have an M20 starter and a 240 tranny laying in my garage.
i dont know why i didn't think of this earlier! i'll try it out tomorrow.
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that would be really nice if that worked...
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that would be really nice if that worked...
Yeah that would eliminate one potentially troublesome step and make this more of a "bolt-on" swap if the M20 starter is found to work as a whole .
I figured that in the write-up that was linked theguy was a 318 guy and maybe did not have access to a spare M20 starter , especially since he bought the gear new .
I on the other hand I have plenty of M20 starters around and would be taking the gear directly froma used spare starter if need be .
Although the one guy seemed to have a used M20 starter to do the gear swap .
But I'm guessing he never thought to try the starter as a whole , I'm basing this on the fact the he was not mechanically inclined enough to even get the gear swap to work .
In any event we shall see .
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does anyone have a picture of their starter with the m20 gear? im wondering if i put mine on right
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There a pic in post# 16 .
Not a direct pic of the gear but that does not matter as it should look the same except the fact that the gear theeth are closer together on the M20's .
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yeah, from a car that wont start
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any updates on the m20 starter working?
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bump i need to know!
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I'm curious too. It would makes doing this swap a bit easier.
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teaguer?
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buuuuump
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anyone have any info? Im going home in a couple days and would like to be able to start my car!
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Sorry but I have not messed with it yet .
So I don't know .
I was planning on dropping th etrans to swap it out with a good used one for what I thougt was an internal problem .
Finally got a night to work on my own car so I got it on the lift and it turned out to be a tranny mount and linkage problem .
I cured that those issues and the problem the same night .
Still would like to swap in a lighter M20 FW so I will get around to that soon enough .
Probably within a few weeks .
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I Just Realize THIS!! i can't adjust my m42/m44 timing chain with a m20 Flywheel any solutions ? maybe i have to buy a cheap m42 flywheel to adjust?
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I Just Realize THIS!! i can't adjust my m42/m44 timing chain with a m20 Flywheel any solutions ? maybe i have to buy a cheap m42 flywheel to adjust?
dude what?!
your flywheel has nothing to do with adjusting your timing chain.
what are you referring to?
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i mean to install my chain how i can put the flywheel timing pin ? the new m20 flywheel dosen't have a hole for that and how i know the engine TDC ?
(sorry for my english anyone speak french? :D )
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can anyone take a pic of an m20 starter for me? im having a problem with mine rubbing since i didnt use the spacer between the flywheel and crank because my flywheel didnt need it.
here is mine, im hoping the pinion in the m20 starter is further back
(http://nicktenhulzen.com/starter.JPG)
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i mean to install my chain how i can put the flywheel timing pin ? the new m20 flywheel dosen't have a hole for that and how i know the engine TDC ?
(sorry for my english anyone speak french? :D )
theres a tool to align the camshafts to TDC, i guess talking to the m20 guys would be a start?
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theres a tool to align the camshafts to TDC, i guess talking to the m20 guys would be a start?
M20 engines use a mark on the cranshanft pulley for the TDC the m44 engine uses the cranshaft sprocket keyway at 12 o'clock position but im thinking this is not easy to do it exacly right on m42 engines is the same ? i think the better way is to install temporaly a m42 flywheel use the timing pin and after switch on M20 (Euro 320i) flywheel
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Some more infos today i did the m20 Flywheel convertion the e36 M43 TOB is the same an you can do the starter conversion only with a bosch starter (mine is Magneti Marreli :( so i need a bosch one ) m20 starter can work if you have space coz its lot bigger. to convert the starter its very easy part maybe i gone make i DIY the difference about 2 flywheels is only 2mm in diameter M20 is bigger so you need a 2mm smaller pinion i dont finished yes but i gone post more about this convertion for the momment i am so happy with my new flywheel and sports disk and plate
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I need a new clutch and thought that this would probably would be a worthwhile upgrade, what clutch kit do you use, a m20 or can you use a m42 clutch? This uses the m20 flywheel, the starter pinion from and m20 and the tob from a 323 is there anything else that needs to be changed? What weight can the m20 flywheel be machined down to?
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++ swap starter gear its a big nightmare for mine e36 starter the m20 gear for this starter generation does not exist! i finaly do it i swap a bosch gear from a Mercedes 309 truck with my bottom gear from my starter! im so happy about it and in a few days my bimmer is ready
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the problem with the starter its much bigger a few days ago i remove my 250 getrag gearbox coz i break my cluch disk i see my flywheel hits my starter cover in right side seems to need turn it a litle bit left im gone work on it to find a solution
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would it be worth me going for one of the M20 flywheels for my 318is, i have a a single mass M42 one in mine, which i skimmed down to 7.4Kgs, would i be getting much lighter than that if i had an M20 one?????
steve
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has anyone tried this flywheel and clutch set up? it says its lighter and is a direct bolt on. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/F1-STAGE-1-CLUTCH-FLYWHEEL-90-99-BMW-318-318i-318is_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33730QQihZ005QQitemZ150166174476QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V
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It is a 240mm flywheel. It will not fit a E30. I have a Fidanza flywheel that was advertised as fitting a E30 also. It will not fit either. E36 used a different tranny which allows the 240mm to fit. Max you can use is a 228mm. Thats why the M20 conversion is about as good as you can get.
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I'm having a local shop (Valley Motorwerks) perform my conversion, probably next week, assuming they can get all the parts in. Since its all out I'm having them also replace the guibo, csb, and rebuild the shift linkages and bushings and throw in a Z3 1.9 shifter as well. I'm also throwing on new tranny mounts and E28 (535i) motor mounts as well. Any thoughts or suggestions?
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New slave cylinder. They're cheap enough, and if yours is original, you are due. If one goes bad and sprays fluid all over your new clutch disc and ruins it, you'll be pissed.
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New slave cylinder. They're cheap enough, and if yours is original, you are due. If one goes bad and sprays fluid all over your new clutch disc and ruins it, you'll be pissed.
Hmmm, you may be right. Maybe its a better purchase than the Z3 shifter.
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I love my z3 1.9 shifter. Slave cylinder is only about $30.
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I love my z3 1.9 shifter. Slave cylinder is only about $30.
Well, in that case, I might as well do both.
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I have hear that the Z4 shifter will also fit and that it has an even shorter throw than the Z3 shifter. There should be a thread somewhere on this sight with a picture comparison.
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Yeah the Z4 shifter is shorter, but also sits very low which I don't like the look of. The nice thing about the Z3 1.9 is that its a big improvement over stock and retains much of the look of the stick shifter
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Car goes under the knife on Monday morning.
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A quick update... car should be finished tomorrow.
It's also getting a CSB, guibo, rebuilt shifter bits along with a Z3 1.9 lever, new tranny mounts and E28 motor mounts.
(http://homepage.mac.com/mgold/.Pictures/no_stuff.jpg)
After they pulled everything out, they found that pretty much all of the seals were leaking, the rear main and the input/output on the tranny.
(http://homepage.mac.com/mgold/.Pictures/no_clutch.jpg)
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Picked it up this afternoon, and wow, I am impressed. The motor spins up faster and the car has more pull in 1st gear. Awesome mod, highly recommended!! Combined with the Z3 1.9 shift lever, the joy of driving stick has returned.
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Oh yes!
The difference is really incredible huh?
Very peppy!!!!
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Just a quick question w/ regards to the flywheel "upgrade":
When swapping out flywheels, is there no need to be concerned with the flywheel weight in relation to the engine's harmonic balancer or overall engine balance?
The reason I ask is this - when wanting to install a lighter flywheel on a Mustang, you also have to change and match the harmonic balancer to the flywheel's weight in order to retain overall engine balance and to avoid premature wear (or destruction) on the internal bearings. For example, a stock 5.0 flywheel is 50oz, so is the harmonic balancer. If wanting to swap out to a 28oz flywheel, the 50oz harmonic balancer would need to be removed and a 28oz balancer installed so that the total rotational mass was still balanced. You can't install a lighter flywheel and not change out the balancer or visa versa.
When installing an M20 flywheel on an M42, there is no need to change the harmonic balancer out as well? Going with a lighter flywheel over the heavier dual mass flywheel has no impact on overall engine balance if leaving the factory M42 balancer in place?
Does the M42 balancer weigh the same as the M20 or visa versa?
Please enlighten me a little more... I understand swapping out the flywheel in order to increase the spin up wanted for spining the rotational mass faster and the fact of "losing weight" (as this is a common upgrade or mod for MANY vehicles), however, I'm not seeing any mention of the impact to overall engine balance or any mention of the need for also upgrading the harmonic balancer. I'm only assuming that the M20 harmonic balancer and the M42 balancer weigh the same, therefore there would not be a need for swapping out this part...
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I'm not sure how to answer that. What I do know is that there was no noticeable increase in vibration, even with the solid M30 motor mounts. That being said, it was recommended that I not lighten up the stock M20 flywheel, probably for that very reason.
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I'm thinking of doing this conversion. The post above about the harmonic balancer has me worried. Has no one thought about this? Is there a solution?
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What is the verdict? What is the easiest way to do the flywheel conversion? Just to lighten the original or what?
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well, I lightened the m20 flywheel to just over 16 lbs (minimal lightening), and right now I'm in the process of re-assembling (tranny mounts are on their way) I'll let you know how everything worked out as soon as its up and running. And abotu the harmonic balancer... Metric Mechanic originally came up with theis little mod, you don't think that they would have thought it through? I don't know though, oh well, it's too late for me to go back now...
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i picked up some 22mm flywheel bolts are they going to be too short for me?
also was i supposed to get the m20 clutch tool? because i did. im hoping if it clears up outside tomarrow to get this knocked out.
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Well, you need teh m20 clutch tool (i just used and adjustable one). This is a very good mod. the engien revs up much quicker, and it definatley feels faster. The idle has smoothed out completely, but it did get harder to drive smoothly but maybe thats my combination of this flywheel and a 4.45 diff haha.
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well if i was to reuse my old tranny which was busted it had the smaller shaft and would have needed the m42 clutch tool. but for some reason the newer trans i got had the larger m20 shaft so i had to replace a couple things. we shaved the flywheel down and bolted the m20 starter right up. everything went together much easier then it came apart and the results were great.
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I have most of it now, but are those really needed ?
323i Release Bearing BMW PN: 21 51 1 204 525
M20 Pressure Plate
Does it really have to be 323i release bearing ?
And the pressure plate is from 325i ?
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Here is what I just did and I love it.
323i Full clutch setup.
323 Flywheel (12.9lbs)
323 Clutch and PP
323 T/O Bearing
323 Starter gear
I love it. Highly recommended.
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I think this is going to be the next thing I do to my car.
Ive already got a 325 clutch and pressure plate.
So ill need a
-Single mass flywheel(lightened)
-323 TO bearing
-325 Starter gear
Hunter
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guys 323 and 325 have same flywheel and clutch, check the code.
so the 323 or 325 is just what you sayed in the shop when you bought you stuff, no difference there :P
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The 323i flywheel was lighter from the factory.
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I have a few questions before I slap mine together tonight.
1. Does the spacer from the M42 flywheel go on the crankshaft before or after the flywheel?
2. Can I use the flywheel bolts from an automatic? According to the Blackforest write-up, the threaded portion of the bolts should be just under 1", and that is just about how long the ones from an auto are.
Thanks,
Ken
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inbetween the crank and fly and as long as they are the right length? they should be a good deal shorter then the m42 bolts
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Just as an FYI, you can use a late model 325 starter instead of swapping out the gears.
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Has anyone had issues with the starter slipping on the flywheel? I think mine may be misaligned.
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Hi there,
Gathering the parts to do this conversion on my E36 325i, but I've got a few questions for you guys:
Looking up replacement clutch kits, the 320i clutch kit for the cabriolet has the same part number as the 325i... and the 323i and the M3! So I'm guessing that all these clutches will be fine when doing the conversion? As long as it's 228mm??
So does this also mean that any of these release bearings can be used??
I have the M20 flywheel that will foul the block but as I'm not using it on an M42, I wont have the spacer that is required so I was going to modify the block and sump instead... or skim the flywheel (I've not decided whether I can afford to do the latter), but will this not affect the conversion yet again because of the extra length the release bearing will have to travel?
Will the slave cylinder be able to compensate this travel?
I have a 1990 Starter motor from an E30 320i touring, I've read on here that I can use a 'late' E30 325i starter. But if all M20 flywheels are the same, then surely any starter from an E30 with an M20 engine will work??? The bellhousing pattern hasn't changed. I think the E36s just has a locating dowel where the E30 doesn't...
I'm thinking the only way to do it is to get the box out and messure the distance from the block to the prongs on the flywheel of both dual and single mass setups and then the distance from the end of the release bearing guide tube to the point where each release bearing will contact the prongs.
Maybe then you could use washers behind the fork pivot to guarantee the correct spacing as the pivots' 'shaft' is quite long.
Also, can anyone tell me how thick the flywheel spacer is (roughly)?
Thanks
Raz
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Wait what are you doing? What about an E36 325i? I do not understand why you are discussing using E30 components. I'm very confused, you want to to use a M20 flywheel with a M50 clutch, behind an M50, attached to a zf, huh? Whats so wrong with just using an M50 single mass. Explain yourself.
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Wait what are you doing?
Trying to figure out what I need to convert my dual mass flywheel into a single mass
What about an E36 325i?
I have one.
I do not understand why you are discussing using E30 components.
I plan to use them
I'm very confused, you want to to use a M20 flywheel with a M50 clutch, behind an M50, attached to a zf, huh? Whats so wrong with just using an M50 single mass. Explain yourself.
What M50 single mass? M50s use a dual mass with an unsprung friction plate, like most E36s, including ones with the M42 engine.........
I never mentioned a ZF, I have a Getrag. Cant use M50 clutch with M20 flywheel... are you drunk?
:cool:
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How much of a difference does this make? I need to change my throw out bearing and guess this conversion could be performed at the same time. Will it spin into 2nd easily and make a noticeable difference to acceleration
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Can anyone confirm if this flywheel (the left one) is a single mass one?
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/Asserti/12042009611.jpg)
thanks in advance!
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I did this on my track car and had no end of dramas......you can't bolt a 323i starter (325i might be different) on as it hits the block and causes misalignment. I didn't buy a 323i TO bearing just used the one that came with my single mass flywheel clutch kit, which was exactly the same as my M42 TO bearing. And i used an '84 323i flywheel (2 kilo's lighter than the 325i flywheel and later 323i flywheels.
I also had to put the 323i starter pinion in the M42 starter and to do this i had to shorten the bendix side of the pinion by about 10mm and cut a new circlip groove in...I am unsure if this is a 323i related issue or something to do with all m20 starter motors.
So in summary:
3mm spacer between crank and flywheel
'84 323i Flywheel
'84 323i Starter motor pinion modded to fit in M42 starter
Shorter flywheel bolts
Single Mass m20 Clutch kit including TO bearing.
As a precaution i modified the clutch fork pivot point to make it adjustable incase there were issues with the shorter TO bearing. At the standard pivot height/depth there are no issues with (dis)engaging the clutch.
The engine revs a hell of a lot better and has woken up alot....i can't comment on noise because if there is any chattering it blends in with the rest of the noises....i removed all of the insulation on my car :)
Good luck to anyone looking to do this.
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You can do this swap WITHOUT the use of a e21 323i throw-out bearing.
I did the swap and am using:
325i starter
325i Single mass Flywheel (Lightened to 11lbs)
325i Sachs clutch kit
325i throw-out bearing.
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You can do this swap WITHOUT the use of a e21 323i throw-out bearing.
I did the swap and am using:
325i starter
325i Single mass Flywheel (Lightened to 11lbs)
325i Sachs clutch kit
325i throw-out bearing.
After going to the trouble of buying the E21 TOB for my conversion, I took the whole installation job to a local shop. They told me that they would have compensated for a shorter TOB by adjusting the rod length on the slave cylinder, as they have done for many different clutch conversion projects. So, that's another way of skinning the cat if needed.
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Thanks!!! Formulatwo, and harvey2... whats with the 2's(two) Related??.. JK JK
Back on topic..
Its nice to hear a straight answer and list from someone who has it done....
I've been meaning to do this, and never had a definite list.
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Thanks!!! Formulatwo, and harvey2... whats with the 2's(two) Related??.. JK JK
Back on topic..
Its nice to hear a straight answer and list from someone who has it done....
I've been meaning to do this, and never had a definite list.
No prob. If you haven't seen my list it is #42 in this thread:
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5696&page=2
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Here is a picture of the difference in the flywheel with the pressure plates... The m20 unit is on the right. You can see that it is smaller. I measured around 3/8 of an inch difference in the two. And like I said... I used a 325i throw out bearing for my swap and it's still working perfectly...
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs587.snc3/30957_390504941775_598051775_4626094_3766211_n.jpg)
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I also had to put the 323i starter pinion in the M42 starter and to do this i had to shorten the bendix side of the pinion by about 10mm and cut a new circlip groove in...I am unsure if this is a 323i related issue or something to do with all m20 starter motors.
So in summary:
3mm spacer between crank and flywheel
'84 323i Flywheel
'84 323i Starter motor pinion modded to fit in M42 starter
Shorter flywheel bolts
Single Mass m20 Clutch kit including TO bearing.
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I did the same, didnt take long to turn down and machine the new grove for the circlip thing in the pinion gear and works great now, however i did use the e21 TO bearing:D
i Also didn't use the 3mm spacer behind the flywheel, it seamed to mesh up all alright and didnt catch the block in anyway
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I think alot of people are getting confused about the references to 323's which is E21 not E30 version which as far as i know is a detuned 325i (still 2.5L) and should still have the same part numbers for flywheel parts and starter. E30 325i flywheel weighs about 19lb's and a E21 323i is 13lb's. changing the pinion is a pig and would not advise anyone to do it because of the amout of problems some people have had with it so on the setup im fitting in the next week im using a later 323i which many say is will be a direct fit, should make things a little more fun and i must point out that even with the 19lb 325i unit used in my last conversion it was well worth it and have no idea why BMW didn't make it this way in the first place.
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My solution:
The first thing to do is use your TDC lock pin before you remove the M42 flywheel and make a mark for TDC on the vibration damper and crank case (or wherever works best for you). This small step will save a lot of headache in the future.
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/nhertlein/1991%20e30/M42%20turbo%20project/M42079.jpg)
After you remove the M42 flywheel, remove the "spacer ring" from the flywheel using a drill to remove the spot welds. The spacer is on the clutch facing side.
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/nhertlein/1991%20e30/M42%20turbo%20project/M42086.jpg)
I have heard that some flywheels may not come with this piece, but the one from the M20 is the same thickness. You will have to grind out the center bore though so it can fit on the crankshaft.
One thing to note is that I had to enlarge one of the holes so that it would fit over the flywheel locating pin. As you will notice, the spacer has a large center bore so it is fairly difficult to get the bolts in place properly. Since neither the part from the M42 or the M20 really work so well, I'm thinking about making up some of my own spacers that would be a direct bolt in piece and of the proper thickness (the spacers are about 1mm too thick).
Bolt the flywheel on using stock M20 325i flywheel bolts which are 25mm long. Do NOT use the M20 pacer ring on the front like the factory flywheel had. To install this piece you will need bolts that are 3mm longer. If anyone knows of a bolt approximately 30mm long please let me know.
This part is one that most people find confusing. The M20 starter seemed to have enough room to bolt in physically, but the engagement depth of the bendix gear was different than the M42 starter. Also, I really liked having the threaded casting on the M42 starter and its much smaller/lighter...so I just went with that.
The first thing you need to do is split the case:
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/nhertlein/1991%20e30/M42%20turbo%20project/M42089.jpg)
Remove the bendix gear section from the starter. If you remove the solenoid you can easily pull out the yoke, but you don't have to. My bolts were all funked up and I could not remove them with an impact hammer so I just spread the yoke and pulled the full bendix assembly out.
The assembly I refer to looks like this, the bendix section is the part with the spring, retainer and actual gear that slides up and down on the shaft:
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/nhertlein/1991%20e30/M42%20turbo%20project/M42090.jpg)
Other guides will tell you just to switch the M20 section with the M42 section. From my measuring this is incorrect. The M20 section is much taller and the bendix gear will not fully retract into the starter housing. i decided to split the large retainer ring with a grinding wheel to remove the actual bendix gear itself and switch them. I then welded the casing back up and ground it flush.
You can see what I did here:
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx146/nhertlein/1991%20e30/M42%20turbo%20project/M42091.jpg)
To remove the bendix gear assembly from the shaft you need to push down (toward the gear) on the ring toward the end. Inside that is a circlip and once that is removed you can separate the gear assembly from the shaft.
Everything should line up nicely now! A nice cheap and easy upgrade!
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You should probably state where TDC is located.
The two yellow marks that you have there threw me off for a moment...I thought you may have had them confused but then realized that everything was timed correctly.
My post below shows a bit more detail as to where TDC is...NOTE the RED mark, it needs to be aligned with the arrow.
http://r3vlimited.com/board/showpost.php?p=860864&postcount=13
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Wow, I didnt even know there was a mark there! Wish I would have known that before and I just would have highlighted that.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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Couple of points of clarification. I have a 1991 E30 318is. I want to put in an aftermarket lightweight flywheel and clutch.
In order to do the conversion do I need:
1) 323i or 325i throw out bearing?
2) 12x22mm or 12x28mm Flywheel bolts?
3) Longer slave cylinder rod or stock M42 slave cylinder rod?
4) Which side does the spacer go on (closest to engine or tranny)?
5) Any other parts needed other than 325 starter pinion gear?
6) Is there a writeup on swapping the starter pinion gear? It looks anything but straight forward.
7) What is the part number for the pinion gear?
-Scott
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(http://i53.tinypic.com/2e1hco0.jpg)
Spacer drilled off of m42 dual-mass flywheel. You can see the drill points at 12 and 6 o'clock, sorry for blurry pic.
(http://i.imgur.com/oumdZpC.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/ogf81d.jpg)
1980 (e21) 323i flywheel which came with its own spacer (wasn't expecting that). Weighs a few pounds less than similar looking 325i flywheel. I used it with a late-model 325i clutch kit but was stupid to pay extra for the 323i throwout bearing. The 325i one is cheaper and shorter, thus closer to OEM engagement.
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/mblytle/purple%20kit/DSCN4311.jpg)
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Couple of points of clarification. I have a 1991 E30 318is. I want to put in an aftermarket lightweight flywheel and clutch.
In order to do the conversion do I need:
1) 323i or 325i throw out bearing?
2) 12x22mm or 12x28mm Flywheel bolts?
3) Longer slave cylinder rod or stock M42 slave cylinder rod?
4) Which side does the spacer go on (closest to engine or tranny)?
5) Any other parts needed other than 325 starter pinion gear?
6) Is there a writeup on swapping the starter pinion gear? It looks anything but straight forward.
7) What is the part number for the pinion gear?
-Scott
Scott, I'm a bit confused. Your list suits the installation of an M20 flywheel and clutch, but you say that you want to put in an aftermarket lightweight flywheel and clutch. Aftermarket, to me, means an aluminum flywheel, and to my knowledge these are usually tailored to the car. So, for example, if you are going to purchase a unit made specifically for your M42 and Getrag 240, then most of your list is unnecessary. I guess perhaps you are thinking of a flywheel made for the M20. Can you confirm this?
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There are aftermarket aluminum flywheels for both 318is and m20 e30s (which can be adapted to the 318is if doing the whole starter + clutchkit conversion).
I think m20 aluminum flywheels are lighter, and cheaper (or at least found used sometimes which is near impossible for a 318is one). But aluminum breaks. It's better to lighten a single-mass oem flywheel from 325i/ic or e21 323.
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So i've been reading up on flywheels for our cars and would love to get a lighter one. A direct fit solution seems to be only from JB @ turner motorsport for ~$630. These are the most expensive of all other E30 lightened flywheels. Even more so than E30 m3's.
Ive been reading through some M20 conversions, and this seems like a viable solution. However, i dont see many people posting their end costs for the entire job, in parts, or whatever.
So, how much cheaper is the M20 swap compared to a direct fit job? If significant then for me its worth it. If only slightly then why bother?
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So i've been reading up on flywheels for our cars and would love to get a lighter one. A direct fit solution seems to be only from JB @ turner motorsport for ~$630. These are the most expensive of all other E30 lightened flywheels. Even more so than E30 m3's.
Ive been reading through some M20 conversions, and this seems like a viable solution. However, i dont see many people posting their end costs for the entire job, in parts, or whatever.
So, how much cheaper is the M20 swap compared to a direct fit job? If significant then for me its worth it. If only slightly then why bother?
The price depends on what flywheel you work with. If you start with a 13lb flywheel from a '79 323 then it depends on whether you buy this new or used. I started with a used one for $120, got it resurfaced for $30. If you start with a 325 M20 flywheel and get it machined down to 12 lbs, it might cost you $150.
11221264517 used 323 flywheel $150
OR
11221264517 new 323 flywheel $315.95
OR
325 M20 flywheel used + machining $150(estimate)
PLUS
21211223174 clutch disk $84.95
21211223026 pressure plate $64.95
21511204525 throw-out bearing $57.95
11221717840 flywheel bolt $3.95 each x 8
07119901023 pressure plate bolt $0.95 each x 6
Used starter from ’89 325 (Bosch) $50
Other parts you might want:
pilot bearing 11211709681 (or11211720310 depends on prod date) $13.95
rear engine seal 11 14 1 706 785 $10.95
locating dowel 11 11 1 743 118 $1.95
exhaust gasket 18 30 1 711 969 $18.95
exhaust nuts 18 30 1 737 774 $1.50 each x 4
Now, bear in mind that this is not just a lighter flywheel that you are getting, it is also a new upgraded clutch. You don't get that for your cost of a custom aluminum flywheel.
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FWIW I did the Metric Mechanics lightweight flywheel conversion w/ none of that starter change and there was a noticeable difference too.
MM lwfw 11lbs
MM 228mm clutch and pp= 14lb
total= 25lbs
stock dual mass 27lbs
stock 215mm clutch and pp = 12lbs
total= 39lbs
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Anyone know how different the flywheel on the 320/6 (did we get those in the US? ) is from the 323?
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FWIW I did the Metric Mechanics lightweight flywheel conversion w/ none of that starter change and there was a noticeable difference too.
MM lwfw 11lbs
MM 228mm clutch and pp= 14lb
total= 25lbs
stock dual mass 27lbs
stock 215mm clutch and pp = 12lbs
total= 39lbs
How much was the MM setup?
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How much was the MM setup?
New it was 900 shipped, but I got it through a friend and paid nowhere near that.
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Are any of you guys still around? I'm trying to gather parts for this conversion and maybe do a write up in the process so it doesn't have to be asked for again. I'm not positive if anyone came to a conclusion on the best/easiest parts, anyways let me know I'd love to do this.
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Are any of you guys still around? I'm trying to gather parts for this conversion and maybe do a write up in the process so it doesn't have to be asked for again. I'm not positive if anyone came to a conclusion on the best/easiest parts, anyways let me know I'd love to do this.
I'd like to know as well, nothing has seemed conclusive. I'm planning on doing this soon, and my list is:
M20 Flywheel (Machined down, but that might not be needed with the spacer)
M20 Clutch
M20 Pressure Plate
M20 Starter
M20 TOB (M42 is the same P/N?)
M42 Drilled Out Spacer, between the crank and the flywheel
M20 Flywheel Bolts
Can anyone confirm that this is it?