M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
FAQ / REFERENCE => M42 Reference => Topic started by: Royalratch on September 13, 2007, 04:38:18 AM
-
Hello from London.
I have an E30 Touring (The station wagon version). I recently dropped in a 2000 Z3 1.9L M44. It's great but has a one issue.
The M44 has one engine temp sensor that feeds all necessary clocks in any E36/Z3. The M42 in an E30 has multiple temp feeds which is where my problem starts. My M44 has one temp feed but my clocks need 2. Can I drill a new area for a temp sensor in the M44 head? Can I split the one existing sensor feed into two? My temp gauage basically shows misleading 'cold' info and is also very erratic.
You may like to know that M44's drop right in, you may need the odd pulley from an M42 and you'll need the M42 ECU (re-mapped to suit larger capacity etc) as M44 ECU's usually have all that BMW EWS security madness in them.
It's definitely smoother and much torquier down low than my stock 318iS Coupé.
Any thoughts would be great - thanks all.
-
As in clocks, do you mean one for the OBC and one for the cluster? If so, the OBC temp comes from a sensor mounted in the driver's side brake duct. I'm not sure how to wire up the engine temp, but if both readouts are for engine temp, it would probably be okay to just split the lead.
-
I believe "clocks" is a British term for instruments or gauges.
-
indeed! why not just use the existing double temp sensor - it has two feeds iirc? Mb your installer just used the e30 temp switch in the m44 head (m44 temp switch with m42 loom will require loom work)?
-
indeed! why not just use the existing double temp sensor - it has two feeds iirc? Mb your installer just used the e30 temp switch in the m44 head (m44 temp switch with m42 loom will require loom work)?
That's probably what he did - there must have been a reason why he didn't do what you suggestd tho. Clocks means Speedo clocks - guages.
Can anyone confirm what part(s) I would need? I could probably do this the tweak myself if the engine doesn't have to come out.
-
indeed! why not just use the existing double temp sensor - it has two feeds iirc? Mb your installer just used the e30 temp switch in the m44 head (m44 temp switch with m42 loom will require loom work)?
But it's an M44 loom that just goes into the C101 plug at in the bulkhead?
He did mention something about not using the M44 loom as it has all the EWS immobiliser / secuirty stuff in it.
-
I would "T" the existing port in the head as the sensors are different and it's hard to drill into the head and get all of the metal shavings out with it still on the car. I accidentally switched the temp sensors for the ECU and the temperature gauge. It caused the "Check Engine" light to come on and the temperature gauge to read very low.
-
That's what I thought the simplest thing to do would be. But do the 2 temp sensors have different signals / resistance ratings? Would a split signal cause the relevant instruments confusion?
Mt temp guage is schizo at the moment, when it's not showing 'just warm' after hours of use...
-
The readings would be slightly off/slower response but as long as it's filled with fluid and not an air bubble they will conduct the heat energy to the sensors.
-
I run a M44 in my 318is E30 and I use the M42 E30 wiring and just put one of the sensors in the water pipe just under the head. One of the sensors are for the ECU and the other one is for the instrument cluster, and I do believe they have different signals as one sensor has two pins and the other one only has one. The water in the pipe is not as hot as in the head ofc and I put the sensor for the temp gauge in there so that the ECU would get the right reading in the head.
-
At the moment it has temps sensor pluged and sealed into the thermostat housing (looks ugly tho) and the other for ECU.
tim_s, the switch you're talking about definitely works? D.Clay above says the two signals are different so just splitting the signal or using double temp switch wouldn't work right?
-
These are the two temp sensors I accidentally switched. This is US M42.
06 ENGINE COOLANT TEMP SENSOR 1-POL 12621710512 $17.52
07 GASKET RING A14X18-AL 07119963200 $0.22
08 TEMPERATURE SENSOR M12X1,5 13621709966 $32.36
09 GASKET RINGA12X15,5-AL 07119963130 $0.10
When switched, the engine did not run right, the check engine light came on, and the termperature gauge read very cool.
-
I also have an m44 in my E30, and I have the same problem. I have one of the sensors in the existing port for the m42, and another one wired closer to the firewall behind the head. The gauge is a little off and it never reaches the mid point like it used to with the m42. However, the needle in the temp gauge rests right above "cool" which according to a temp gun is at normal operating temp. Now if the needle were to go to the middle I would know that the engine is too hot. If you can measure the heat from your engine and figure out where the needle is at that point, you can kind of get an estimate on what temp your engine is at. I didn't want to drill another hole, because it would be kind of hard since the motoris already in, so hopefully this is an easier way for you :D
P.S. I <3 the m44
-
Thanks for this guys - very useful.
Another thing I was thinking was to 'advance' the gauge needle to sit middle at regular operating temperature.
My main concern tho is to tidy up the bodged wiring in the bay - I hate it!
How do M44's feed guage & ECU when fitted in their regular E36/Z3 homes?
-
M44 Head - Number 7 is a double temp switch:
(http://bmwfans.info/original/images/156804_p.png)
I see what tim_s meant now - taking two feeds from the M44 switch would require loom work.
Anyone know how much? Can't be too much I'd have thought...
-
Still on this problem.
M44 Block with double temp sensor that needs to fit E30 loom/ECU/clocks.
Can anyone tell me if the temp reading will be accurate for both? Will it be the correct 'signal' to feed an E30 ECU and E30 Temp Gauge etc?
If so, surely that is the best way and requires no loom work at all?
-
Still on this problem.
M44 Block with double temp sensor that needs to fit E30 loom/ECU/clocks.
Can anyone tell me if the temp reading will be accurate for both? Will it be the correct 'signal' to feed an E30 ECU and E30 Temp Gauge etc?
If so, surely that is the best way and requires no loom work at all?
Odds are it will work fine.
If not, use the head one with m42 sensor for the computer and a secondary one for the gauge.
-
Kind of a side questions but which is for the gauge temp?
in the m42 head.
jake
-
To clarify.
In the M44 there is a double temperature sensor located in ONE port that feeds both temp gauge AND ECU.
M42's in an E30 have TWO sensors feeding gauge and ECU separately.
So I have an M44 in an E30 whose loom needs two separate signals and my questions are:
1) Does the M44 double temp sensor feed an identical or usable signal as the M42 sensors?
2) Looking closer still, are the individual signals for the ECU and gauge the same or different?
I would assume that a sensor just takes a given reading at the head, and it's the gauge or ECU that 'interprets' that signal into what it needs. Can I measure these signals somehow? Is there info on it somewhere?
-
1) Does the M44 double temp sensor feed an identical or usable signal as the M42 sensors?
2) Looking closer still, are the individual signals for the ECU and gauge the same or different?
Pretty sure in both cases they are the same, I have read of others using it with success.
-
I am now doing this - M44 Double Temp feeding M42 temp gauge and ECU - will let you know when it's up and running.
-
I am now doing this - M44 Double Temp feeding M42 temp gauge and ECU - will let you know when it's up and running.
Document as much as you can please.
-
Okay.
The guys I'm working with on this are running into a little trouble. As Sheepdog has pointed out, there has been some success with getting the single M44 Double Temp Sensor to feed the E30 temp gauge and engine ECU.
However, my guys cannot get the gauge to work. They have 4 pinouts from the M44 TS, 2 for the gauge and 2 for the ECU right?
What they need to know is if there is any info regarding colour of wires, voltage/resistance, pin numbers etc that need to be a certain value.
Any help would be great as it's all ready to rock and it runs fine but obviously no temp gauge is not cool (!).
-
According to the E36 Bentley manual:
* Pin 1 of the temp sensor is brown/yellow wire and goes to the instrument cluster (temp sens negative)
* Pin 2 of the temp sensor is brown/violet wire and goes to the instrument cluster (temp sens positive)
* Pin 3 of the temp sensor is brown/red wire and goes to the engine control module (temp signal)
* Pin 4 of the temp sensor is brown/black wire and goes to a common ground point shared with the knock sensors, throttle position sensor, then back to the engine control module (sensor ground)
(Wire colours are from M44 loom)
Comparing this to the E30 wiring diagram:
* Connect the E30s wiring loom brown/black wire to pin 4 of the sensor
* Connect the E30s wiring loom brown/red wire to pin 3 of the sensor
That should do it for the engine computer.
The instrument cluster is a bit trickier.
I would try the brown/violet wire to pin 2 and then run a ground to pin 1 (that will be the other wire that ran to the M42 sensor, I don't know the colour of that one). If that doesn't work I would reverse those two.
-
It appears that getting a correct gauge reading is the ongoing problem here (without drilling or re-positioning the temp sensor).
The M42 / E30 ECU's don't have or use knock sensors right - could that be what complicates matters here?
Appreciate that help bud. Will let you know what happens ASAP.
-
Looks like the temp sensor issue is impossible to sort as with 3 days of tweaking we cannot get a reliable signal to the gauge from the M44 Dual feed Sensor. The only sure way is to stick the original M42 sensor in the water pipe or thermostat housing. I have found this to at least make it look tidy:
(http://images.superstreetonline.com/techarticles/130_0706_15_z+defi_link_display+adaptor.jpg)
-
Hello all again.
The above solution now works fine. Temp gauge reads dead centre and engine runs fine. Some small cosmetic tweaks are being done then I'll post a full write-up in a separate thread.
Thanks for the pointers!
-
To bring to life an old thread with new information I must add the following.
The 4 prong e36 sensor cannot be used with the e30 for temp gauge signal. The e36 uses a different signal threshold. This is a known issue with the m50 conversion. The e30 gauge its matching e30 sensor. As for the DME signal, I would venture to say it is e30 specific as well.
When using e30 DME to control the m44 use correct e30 temp sensor for DME.
Use e30 temp sensor for the e30 gauge.
-
When using e30 DME to control the m44 use correct e30 temp sensor for DME.
Use e30 temp sensor for the e30 gauge.
Yes but, 2 sensors into 1 port does not go. (M44 Block has single port to feed both ECu and Temp Gauge).
The signal from the thermostat housing or water pipe will never be accurate because it's not as hot as the block housing.
-
Yes but, 2 sensors into 1 port does not go. (M44 Block has single port to feed both ECu and Temp Gauge).
The signal from the thermostat housing or water pipe will never be accurate because it's not as hot as the block housing.
I would say use the head port for the DME signal. And the one at the thermostat for the gauge. The gauge is important, but the one for the DME is more so.
Coolant temp should not change much across the head. At least not enough to cause the gauge to behave as others are describing.
-
Mine is done like this, the gauge settles at halfway in about 5 minutes, far too quickly to be an accurate reading. If creeping in traffic, it will go upto near red so it will at least show if the tempo is rising but it's very annoying as it could be an issue in hot weather or if there is a genuine problem with the coolant system.
There must be a way get the M44 double-temp sensor to play ball accurately with the E30 DME/gauge.
-
Sorry to resurrect this thread but I was wondering if you guys that have an M44 in your car and used the M42 ECU, did you use the M44 Cam and Crank sensor or did you change "back" to the M44 sensors?
I have just found that my M42 cam sensor doesn't fit in the front of the M44 timing cover (as it hits the cam gear) and want to get an m44 one if it works with the M42 ECU.
Thanks
Cristian
-
Sorry to resurrect this thread but I was wondering if you guys that have an M44 in your car and used the M42 ECU, did you use the M44 Cam and Crank sensor or did you change "back" to the M44 sensors?
I have just found that my M42 cam sensor doesn't fit in the front of the M44 timing cover (as it hits the cam gear) and want to get an m44 one if it works with the M42 ECU.
Thanks
Cristian
I had a M44 in my car but it has been replaced with a M42 turbo now ;) But anyway, the crank sensor is of the same type on both M42 and M44 (VR) and the cam sensor is of VR type on the M42 and Hall type on the M44. M42 ECU will not work with a hall sensor. What you can do is put a spacer in between the sensor and the cam gear cover and use a M42 sensor, thats how I did and it worked. It was also before I discovered that the cam triggers are different and M44 cam triggers will not work with a M42 ECU :D But it doesnt matter as the engine will run fine without a cam sensor ;) I could have removed it but then I had to find/make a plug so I just left it in there ;) Maybe the CEL comes on if the cam sensor is broken/gone? Test to unplug the cam sensor and youll see :)
-
I had a M44 in my car but it has been replaced with a M42 turbo now ;) But anyway, the crank sensor is of the same type on both M42 and M44 (VR) and the cam sensor is of VR type on the M42 and Hall type on the M44. M42 ECU will not work with a hall sensor. What you can do is put a spacer in between the sensor and the cam gear cover and use a M42 sensor, thats how I did and it worked. It was also before I discovered that the cam triggers are different and M44 cam triggers will not work with a M42 ECU :D But it doesnt matter as the engine will run fine without a cam sensor ;) I could have removed it but then I had to find/make a plug so I just left it in there ;) Maybe the CEL comes on if the cam sensor is broken/gone? Test to unplug the cam sensor and youll see :)
I understand the sensors are different (hall vs VR) and on the M44 it has a different "trigger wheel" bolted to the Cam gear.
If you remove that trigger wheel the cam wheels look very similar between the two cars i.e. a round peg in the same location. The peg is the same height and diameter as the M42 cam wheels.
I was trying to not to have to go into making up adaptors for all this but if that is how it's going to work, I've spent too many fun tickets and don't have enough to go back now.
Are the early M42 cam sensors and the late ones the same?
-
I understand the sensors are different (hall vs VR) and on the M44 it has a different "trigger wheel" bolted to the Cam gear.
If you remove that trigger wheel the cam wheels look very similar between the two cars i.e. a round peg in the same location. The peg is the same height and diameter as the M42 cam wheels.
I was trying to not to have to go into making up adaptors for all this but if that is how it's going to work, I've spent too many fun tickets and don't have enough to go back now.
Are the early M42 cam sensors and the late ones the same?
According to ETK there was a change in those sensors in 09/1993 but I don't know the difference between the two.
If you have a M42 and a M44 I'd try and fit the cam gear cover from the M42 onto the M44, chances are that it will fit :) That should take care of the spacing issue. M42 sensor position is also on the exhaust cam and on the intake cam on M44, I haven't measured the position of the peg vs the hole in cover, also has to be considered if you want to do this "right".
-
I had a M44 in my car but it has been replaced with a M42 turbo now ;) But anyway, the crank sensor is of the same type on both M42 and M44 (VR) and the cam sensor is of VR type on the M42 and Hall type on the M44. M42 ECU will not work with a hall sensor. What you can do is put a spacer in between the sensor and the cam gear cover and use a M42 sensor, thats how I did and it worked. It was also before I discovered that the cam triggers are different and M44 cam triggers will not work with a M42 ECU :D But it doesnt matter as the engine will run fine without a cam sensor ;) I could have removed it but then I had to find/make a plug so I just left it in there ;) Maybe the CEL comes on if the cam sensor is broken/gone? Test to unplug the cam sensor and youll see :)
My m44 crank sensor is next to the starter pointing at the flywheel. Would this be compatible w m42 ecu where crank sensors are all mounted in the front?