M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => General Topics => Topic started by: nomad on August 10, 2007, 01:20:14 AM
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So I'd been lazy and put off installing my new water pump and thermostat I have in the garage. I guess my car got pissed and decided to punish me.
On surface streets with A/C on I suddenly noticed the check engine light come on and the temp was pegged red. :eek: I cranked the heat up and no heat came out. I pulled over just as I rolled down the freeway on-ramp and sat on the shoulder. I looked at the rad and it was low on water in the expansion tank. So I'm thinking water pump or thermostat or leak. :confused:
I had just added a bit of water to it this weekend just to be sure the fluids were topped off. The car cooled down to middle temp level and the car never made any sounds or put out any white smoke and didn't have a smell of antifreeze.
The Freeway tow truck topped off the rad with water and the expansion tank filled, then the water was sucked into the engine and the level was about 1/4 full on the tank. I cranked it up, put the heat on high and drove home at 50mph. The heat didn;t come on right away, it took about 40 seconds. The temp guage read to the 3/4 mark on the way home but held steady till I was on surface streets, then it crept up.
When I shut the hot car off at home I saw that the expansion tank had water full all the way to the cap. I let it sit and cool and now the water level is under the middle mark again.
So here's what I'm thinking:
1. The water pump works (I'll replace it anyways) because it is pressurizing the system.
2. The heater core works as evidenced by the heat and temp reduction but could be clogged or could have issue with the valve to the heater core?
3. Thermostat could be toast and failed half closed or full closed. The hoses were hot but the rad wasn't overly hot when it pegged red. Thermostat could be restricting all flow, hence the expansion tank totally filling with water.
4. I didn't see any water in oil or oil in water so I'm hoping I missed the bullet and the HG is ok.
I'm going to buy a whole hose set, change water pump, thermostat (check for bypass hole, drill if needed), belts, flush, fill, bleed. Any suggestions? Insights?
Do you use any permatex on the thermostat housing gasket?
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you head is probably cracked, take the rad cap off, start the car, and look for bubbles in the tank
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Something this serious would be evidenced by water in the oil and/or oil in the water though. I'll have to look for that as they seem fine so far.
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not nessesarily, the head cracks inbtween the cylinder 2 exhaust seat and a water jacket.
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What are the symptoms?
White smoke out exhaust, dripping water, slowly losing fluid, quickly losing fluid?
So you say I should just look for bubbles in a full radiator overflow tank once I start it up cold? Small bubbles, large bubbles, steady stream or occasional only?
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So I degreased the engine tonight so I could see everything clearly and I found the leak.
I ran the engine and I saw water bubbling out of a hose connection under the intake.
I looked in the Bentley and they had a photo of exactly where it is leaking. I really hope this is the only place! You can see to the left is the oil filter and on top in the intake mani.
So I'm going to see if I can get these hoses and the coolant pipe that they are connected to.
Anyone have suggestions on changing these hoses? Remove intake mani? Replace whole coolant pipe?
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So I degreased the engine tonight so I could see everything clearly and I found the leak.
I ran the engine and I saw water bubbling out of a hose connection under the intake.
I looked in the Bentley and they had a photo of exactly where it is leaking. I really hope this is the only place! You can see to the left is the oil filter and on top in the intake mani.
So I'm going to see if I can get these hoses and the coolant pipe that they are connected to.
Anyone have suggestions on changing these hoses? Remove intake mani? Replace whole coolant pipe?
replace the whole coolant pipe & the o-ring.....along with all th hoses that attach to it and you should be fine.
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did you check for bubbles in the coolant tank yet?
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Well, I just spent the last 9 hours changing water pump, thermostat, belts, took the intake manifold apart and did the throttle body coolant bypass, replaced the water pipe and the hoses as well. I put it all back together but it's too late to fill and check it now.
I took my time, had the music going, had some beer. It took a while but I don't have to rush it and do a quick fix so I didn't. I cleaned as I worked and overall got acquainted with the M42. I don't like that little black box full of wires under the intake manifold, and didn't like the routing of coolant and vaccuum hoses in general. If I have to do it again I'll do a more thorough cleaning job with lots of carb spray in the intake.
I'll check for bubbles and see if I did any major damage to the head with this incident. The water pipe was disintegrating from the inside out. The pipe nipple broke clean off, that's why I lost all my fluid, and when I pulled the pipe out half of it stayed in the block.
Everyone should plan on replacing it if you have not already. This car has 156K on it and I see, unfortunately, a lot of little things that are original.
I plan to take the upper intake manifold off and clean/paint it with the valve cover when I do my valve cover gasket, hopefully Monday. I should also have the large radiator hoses and a new expansion tank cap by then from RMEuropean.
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Keep us posted ;)
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8:30AM - So far so good. No bubbles as far as I can tell, and the temp guage has stayed one tick below 12-oclock pretty firm. I'll find out how well it does today on the way home with the A/C on at 104 degrees.
1:00PM - Seemed to cool well and temp climbed till needle was nearly past 12 oclock then fell to previous reading once thermostat opened. 101 degrees right now. I turned on the A/C and the temp climbed to a needle past 12 oclock. Not happy wih that. I also saw coolant from what looked to be the heater hose connection tot he block. Damn. I knew I should have changed that hose. Looks Like I may be redoing that later this week. No steady bubbles in teh overflow tank yet but the water looks dirty, I flushed it as best I could but I think another flush will be good.
Hope nothing blows on the way home.
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Well, I should have stayed home.
This just went from what seemed bad to worse.
First, the easy stuff. I sprayed carb cleaner on the ICV and it seemed to smooth out the idle a bit.
Then, I pulled out of work and within one block the car overheated. No hoses busted etc, but temp kept climbing to red.
Heater felt weak so maybe that is clogged?
It spewed coolant whe i relesed the pressure cap on the overflow tank. The system seems to have a lot of pressure in it.
I'm not sure if the thermostat didn't open or what.
What really gets me is that I think I do have a cracked head now. The coolant isn't chocolate milk but I did see light brown oil in the plug holes.
I guess my only choice now is to take it to a local mechanic and get the bad news.
I've got a couple grand in performance upgrades in the garage and several more buying the car and the engine is toast. No I'm looking at finding a new head or a new engine.
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When you can't get any heat out of the vents with the engine overheating, chances are your water pump is no longer turning. Thats really strange considering you just replaced it. Sorry to hear the bad news.
Does the electric fan turn on with the AC? What about the the clutch fan? Is it moving a lot of air when the radiator is hot? Any way you slice it, the cooling system on this engine is beyond stupid.
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It was working this morning, everything was nice.
The clutch fan seems to work ok, once I got moving (and rpm went up) the temp steadily rose to red.
A/C fan has worked fine.
I felt the radiator and it was not too hot whereas both hoses were really hot.
I had flushed out the rad when I did the overhaul and it flowed well. Maybe it is just a really really bad clog that comes and goes.
The thing that really scared me was the nasty light brown oil in the sparkplug holes. It wasn't there this AM because I just cleaned them out of black oil that I discovered.
Maybe I can drive as far as it'll let me go before getting too hot. I really would rather do the work myself but time is precious.
I need to find a 318ti head or something.
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The oil in the spark plug holes is from the valve cover gasket. There are small gaskets around the plug openings. It's good that it's just oil
- indicating it's just leaking a bit. You could tighten the bolt in the center of the valve cover. Don't get too tight as they are known for stripping. May be a stupid question, but are you bleeding the cooling system using the plug on top of the radiator tank. in the realoem drawing of the radiator. It's #8.
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Advice? Do a coolant system pressure check before running it. Then start the car and check it again. If it's a cracked head, it will not hold pressure.
Are the coolant hoses rock hard when the car is running?
And stop driving it until you figure out what's going on...
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The hoses were rock hard when I pulled over and looked at everything for the last time. I was wondering about that. Don't worry, I'm not driving it any longer. The first time I really drove it after work was to work today. It won't go anywhere now.
KISS OF DEATH: After it cooled, I tried to turn the engine over one last time to see if I could spot a leak (still could not) and the engine won't turn over. I believe it's hydrolocked by coolant. The starter wants to turn it but nothing will move. I think coolant leaked into the cylinder from the pressure in the system and filled the cylinder.
It's dead.
I'm looking for heads and engines now. I'll tow it back to my house and take it apart, just for morbid fascination I guess.
Maybe I can salvage it, but it'll take time and money.
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The hoses were rock hard when I pulled over and looked at everything for the last time. I was wondering about that. Don't worry, I'm not driving it any longer. The first time I really drove it after work was to work today. It won't go anywhere now.
KISS OF DEATH: After it cooled, I tried to turn the engine over one last time to see if I could spot a leak (still could not) and the engine won't turn over. I believe it's hydrolocked by coolant. The starter wants to turn it but nothing will move. I think coolant leaked into the cylinder from the pressure in the system and filled the cylinder.
It's dead.
I'm looking for heads and engines now. I'll tow it back to my house and take it apart, just for morbid fascination I guess.
Maybe I can salvage it, but it'll take time and money.
Wow. That's pretty bad. Hopefully you didn't damage the bottom end. Pull the spark plugs and get rid of the pressure.
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I'll be taking my tools in to work tomorrow. If I'm lucky some local punks will have stolen everything off it and I can total the car through insurance.
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Just for the purpose of documentng for future generations... I'll continue posting.
So I sucked out about a tablespoon or two of bright coolant from the #3? (second from the front) cylinder. Others looked semi OK. I'l bring the car back home and pop the head.
Time to search for a head...
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#3...like this one?
(http://home.comcast.net/~bmwpower/garage/head2.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~bmwpower/garage/head3.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~bmwpower/garage/head4.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~bmwpower/garage/head6.jpg)
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Actually, one to the right, but no guarantee that's not cracked too.
Just got quoted $800 for a used head, untouched. $2200 for the full overkill rebuild with all new parts and port/polish etc.
I'l keep looking, thanks. You can buy honda heads for $100 all day... but just because it says BMW...
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Time for F20c swap then?
(http://www.bigflea.com/corolla/images/f20c.jpg)
Or
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-318i-double-over-head-cam-cylinder-head-318ti-318ci_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33617QQihZ013QQitemZ230161568872QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
You could also be looking at just a failed head gasket
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I'm REALLY hoping it's the head gasket...
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Wow I am really sorry to hear about this. Aside from the leak in the head, did you check the thermostat housing thoroughly? There is a little bypass groove, that if plugged, will prevent you from bleeding the air out and can prevent the tstat from opening (prevents hot water from getting to it). If you used some sort of gasket sealer on the housing gasket, it might have plugged it, or it was just clogged.
Anyway, best of luck to you. I will keep an eye out for a used head.
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Man that really sucks..
Time for F20c swap then?
(http://www.bigflea.com/corolla/images/f20c.jpg)
Or
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-318i-double-over-head-cam-cylinder-head-318ti-318ci_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33617QQihZ013QQitemZ230161568872QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
You could also be looking at just a failed head gasket
Im currently looking for a totaled s2000 to do the swap :cool:.
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I made sure the small hole was not plugged. I will obviously have the joy of taking this all apart again so I'll look and see if it plugged up.
Everyone said these engines are plentiful and inexpensive. That's not what I'm finding out, compared to other basic engines. I'm having trouble finding the people who have all these engines.
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Well, make sure to check on Bimmerforums. A think a few folks there are ditching their M42s currently.
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http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=93056
This guy has/had a head for sale. I was going to buy it from him, but never heard back (I was waiting for him to pull it).
Contact him. The price was reasonable. I would have bought it, but I couldn't wait and I found one with lower mileage...I think his was like 140k miles.
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Long story short = REVISED = Warped headgasket due to overheating which then cracked the head.
Crack may only be a small issue as the headgasket caused the main problem.
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Long story short = cracked head
Almost the same friggin spot as mine. WTF is with these heads dying?
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Because this is a large hole that comes closest to the cylinder so it is extremely prone to cracking once heat goes unchecked.
So why is the head gasket shaped this way? With "blocked holes" (the elliptical holes and odd shaped one) for coolant? I'm almost tempted to ream these out a bit on the new headgasket to ley the coolant flow better. Hopefully those Germans knew what they were doing but they certainly got the large hole wrong.
What's the point of having large water holes if the head gasket covers them up? I'm confused since the head's elliptical holes would mate perfectly with the block's elliptical holes.
Anyone know?
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One thing that comes to mind, and this is merely a guess, but those same types of holes are on my M30 as well. I'm thinking it has something to do with the fact that if the hole was wide, there would NOT be sufficient back pressure to fill the entire water jacket void. With a small hole, the coolant backs up and has a chance to fill the entire jacket, then start flowing. Make sense? You don't want hot spots.
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Just seems retarded though. Why have such a large hole right next to the chamber if you only need a tiny 1/8" hole?
So I think my crack was there befroe I bought the car, I could be wrong though. See the shiny cylinder? The coolant got all the crud off the piston.
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I think I know why the holes are that way.
The inlet for water is from the bottom of the rad to the thermostat and the water goes into the bottom of the block. The water pump pushes the water through the block towards the back. When it hits the back it goes up the water jacket, through the four elliptical holes into the head, where it flows back towards the front of the engine and dumps out the thermostat outlet pipe into the radiator. If the holes in the HG were all really large then the coolant could not "flow" from front to back, up top and then back to the front. It would just stagnate. The holes make sure there is pressure regulation and cross flow but they help keep things moving.
Like you said, backpressure to keep it flowing.
I still don't like how they put all these large holes next to the cylinder head yet only need small holes.
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Hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel. A local machine shop will pressure test and resurface the head for $100 and if the crack needs repair it'll be another $100. Not too bad if you ask me.
The guy was really knowledgeable and put me at ease knowing he knows his junk. He said that in his experience, if it pressure tests well then it was the headgasket that failed and let water in, not the crack unless it is deep and large. If it tests well then he said put a new headgasket on and run it. It won't open up unless it is allowed to overheat again.
He said the headgasket failing causes the head to crack, not the head cracking and causing the gasket to fail.
The cool thing was that he immediately said "is that the engine with the sensitive timing case alignment?" "I believe the timing cover has to be machined too".
BINGO! We have a winner.
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$100 to weld the head?!? That's cheap. I've been told multiple times that either it's not worth it to weld it - either it's too expensive or it won't hold. Did the guy actually look at the head before he told you that? The reason why I ask it because my crack (similar to yours) travels a good ways up the water jacket, well beyond where a welder would fit. It may even be up into where the valve guide seats - I can't tell since the valves are still in there. The only way he's going to be able to tell is to pull the valvetrain and take a look inside the valve area.
I just dropped both my heads (good used one and cracked one) off at the machine shop today. I should be getting a call back on Monday after the clean and check the used head. I didn't think to ask more about the welding of the old head, but the machinist wasn't there so I probably wouldn't have gotten an answer anyway. If it's not much, then maybe I will fix the old head, clean and machine it and then sell it or hold onto it for an extra.
As far as pressure testing it and then running it WITHOUT fixing the crack...I dunno. I don't feel safe doing that. Do they pressure test it under running temps? That crack will more than likely open more as the temp goes up. Think about it, it's right next to the cumbustion chamber.
Sensitive timing case alignment? Never heard of that, but I knew the timing case needs to be skimmed if the head is. My M30 was the same way. Of course, I forgot mine today so I'll be making another trim assuming everything checks out ok.
Hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel. A local machine shop will pressure test and resurface the head for $100 and if the crack needs repair it'll be another $100. Not too bad if you ask me.
The guy was really knowledgeable and put me at ease knowing he knows his junk. He said that in his experience, if it pressure tests well then it was the headgasket that failed and let water in, not the crack unless it is deep and large. If it tests well then he said put a new headgasket on and run it. It won't open up unless it is allowed to overheat again.
He said the headgasket failing causes the head to crack, not the head cracking and causing the gasket to fail.
The cool thing was that he immediately said "is that the engine with the sensitive timing case alignment?" "I believe the timing cover has to be machined too".
BINGO! We have a winner.
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This was on the phone. The sensitive timing case alignment refers to the profile gasket. The timing cover where the thermostat bolts into needs to have the surface milled off the same amount they take off the head or it'll hang down lower once the bolts go in.
Once he pressure tests it and examines it he'll know how bad the crack is. If it's bad and can be welded then what he has to do is grind out the area where the crack is, then heat the head up, weld to fill in the channel he created, and then machine it all back to spec, do a valve job etc.
I'll find out what the real deal is once I take it there.
I'm not too keen on running the head without fixing the crack either. If it tests ok then I'll think about it though. I'm thinking just have him do it, weld the crack and call it a day. There are lots of places that do this every day to get cars back on the road. This ancient 4cyl isn't that special.
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OK, so I'm really starting to think the guy knows his stuff.
HE said the headgasket is what "typically leaks", not the cracks which are caused by the headgasket and the heat.
So I examined the head, the block and the headgasket itself and see for yourself in the photos above.
There was coolant inthe two central cylinders. The third from the left was really the bad one.
See how the piston head is clean from the water? The others are dirty.
Look closely at the cylinder head, headgasket and the block surfaces where the headgasket seals it.
The head is shiny clean where the gasket surface mounts tight. BUT there is a stained brown section on the head sealing surface where water was leaking in.
The headgasket sealing surface is stained a varnish brown on the good seal surfaces but the corresponding water leak has cleaned it off to shiny metal.
THe block mating surface is the same, brown at the seal, clean where the headgasket had presumably warped and let water leak in from the adjacent water jackets.
So, the crack is not good, and is certainly not factory perfect. But the headgasket looks to have given way in several places, letting water seep into the cyl. The headgasket could be the main culprit here. The crack may open up and introduce some negative aspect but the headgasket certainly warped when the car was overheated due to the plastic water pipe breaking and letting coolant out.
Thoughts? Am I just a simpleton who doesn't see the big picture?
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Yea, so the question is why did the headgasket fail. I guess we could only assume whoever had the head off last time (maybe BMW) didn't do everything necessary to make sure the headgasket wouldn't fail in the future. I'm referring to the profile gasket issue that dealers had to repair back in the day.
This may be the same thing with mine.
However yours and mine both were running green coolant. Something I don't do on my other cars...never have and never will. I don't trust the green stuff. So whoever the previous owners were, either they had a bad profile gasket job OR they didn't keep up on the maintenance and did something to compromise the fragile cooling system.
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I'm almost positive the PO didn't keep up with maint.
As evidenced by the car needing absolutely everything maintenenced!
They definitely did the profile gasket fix at some point.
I just think this car's cooling is critical so that it doesn't overheat. When it does overheat, bad things happen. The car ran fine for the whole time I had it until the reason for the initial post - cracked water pipe - dumped the coolant steadily on the drive home and the temp pegged. I admit, I was driving in stop and go with the A/C on and don't spend much time staring at the temp guage. When I looked down at a light it was pegged. Hot as you can get it. That was surely enough to cause any problem, or make any other problem worse.
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I'm almost positive the PO didn't keep up with maint.
As evidenced by the car needing absolutely everything maintenenced!
They definitely did the profile gasket fix at some point.
I just think this car's cooling is critical so that it doesn't overheat. When it does overheat, bad things happen. The car ran fine for the whole time I had it until the reason for the initial post - cracked water pipe - dumped the coolant steadily on the drive home and the temp pegged. I admit, I was driving in stop and go with the A/C on and don't spend much time staring at the temp guage. When I looked down at a light it was pegged. Hot as you can get it. That was surely enough to cause any problem, or make any other problem worse.
What pipe burst? I better check mine...
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Look at the 6th post or so on page one of this thread.
I posted a photo. This is a hard plastic "water pipe" that attaches intot he block with an O-ring and two bolts. There are three coolant pipes attached to it and the top pipe just gave way right at the joint of the plastic nipple.
It's $25 at the dealer, you have to take the intake mani off to get to it but darn if it isn't cheap insurance to get a new one. At 156K mike was brittle and the plastic stayed in the block when I took the part out. It should have been made of metal if you ask me.
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hey man, theres no way you want to use that head for anything other then aluminum recycling. That thing is going to leak like hell into the cylinder and welding them is really sketchy. Just find another head and be done with it
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I'd love to spend $1000 on this fix but I can't.
Where are you finding all your cheap heads? I'm having trouble. I see fully rebuilt ones for $675 and a used one for $200 privately but the guy won;t give me pics of it to prove it's not cracked too.
I should have never bought this car.
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yeah times can be rough. Just try to find one used
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I'm looking for a used one. The machine shop looked at it and the head is cracked like 2" deep into the head. Really deep, not a surface crack.
No harm done having them look at it. I am going to try for a used head with no cracks, resurface, install and sell this damn car. I'm willing to take the loss because I'm so frustrated with this thing. Someone's about to geta nicely fixed E30. head, headgasket, chain, timing gears, water pump, t-stat, hoses, excellent interior etc.
I got hosed on this one and I'm not waiting around for the next issue.
With my luck the car will give someone else another 150k of trouble free fun...
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I'm looking for a used one. The machine shop looked at it and the head is cracked like 2" deep into the head. Really deep, not a surface crack.
No harm done having them look at it. I am going to try for a used head with no cracks, resurface, install and sell this damn car. I'm willing to take the loss because I'm so frustrated with this thing. Someone's about to geta nicely fixed E30. head, headgasket, chain, timing gears, water pump, t-stat, hoses, excellent interior etc.
I got hosed on this one and I'm not waiting around for the next issue.
With my luck the car will give someone else another 150k of trouble free fun...
S50 swap... I'm leaning in that direction right about now. After $1k into the head, it would be better to pay ~$2k-$2.5k for an M3 engine and drop it in.
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I'm not spending $2k to swap into this car (although it would be fun).
Then I'm looking at tranny, clutch, different suspension.. etc.
No thanks. I'm going back to school for my Masters degree so I need all of my spare time for myself.