M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Electrical => Topic started by: dino245 on March 10, 2006, 09:24:03 AM
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I am working on replacing the stock ignition coils with a COP (Coil On Plug) set up using coils from a VW/Audi 1.8t. I will take some pictures at the time I install them and post some part numbers.
The advantage of this is reducing the possibility of crossfiring of the high tension leads and reducing the complexity of the engine bay, especialy if you are boosting and would like the extra space on that side.
The coils were under a recall at the dealership and a friend of mine who repairs VW/Audi cars has a pile of these coils and some may fail but some may still last a while. There is a new "updated" part available for around 50-60 bones and will fit in the ignition holes of our valve covers. I will keep yall uptodate as I make progress.
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Nice! If you can get me some part #'s and dimensions I might be able to help out designing a mounting bracket for this.
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The advantage of this is reducing the possibility of crossfiring of the high tension leads and reducing the complexity of the engine bay, especialy if you are boosting and would like the extra space on that side.
great...thats what I was thinking when I read the title
Keep us updated!!
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..interesting mission! The coils are not that expensive. My buddy's 1.8T GTi has been through 3 of them or so. What plans do you have for the wiring harness and how will you keep them covered (if at all)?
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what kind of gains are you expecting out of this?
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I am not focused on any hp gains for this, I am looking to siplify the engine bay, remove some of the clutter. I am using a section off of a stock harness from a 1.8t jetta that I sourced when I worked for the VW dealer. The part number for the coils is 06b 905 115h. You want the latest version of these which will have a higher order of letter such as j,kl,m,n of what ever they are up to. Also there are a few chiniese companies making knock off versions of these for cheaper than fatory. The connector plug which out the connector pins is available from the dealer and is part number 1j0 973 724. If you go to a repudable dealer they can also find the connector pins that fit in these connectors.
I have yet to hook these up and may not be able to since I might have to move out of the country, I wont know until the end of March and then I will have to sell my car with allof the stuff on it. I will keep you posted.
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I am not focused on any hp gains for this, I am looking to siplify the engine bay, remove some of the clutter. I am using a section off of a stock harness from a 1.8t jetta that I sourced when I worked for the VW dealer. The part number for the coils is 06b 905 115h. You want the latest version of these which will have a higher order of letter such as j,kl,m,n of what ever they are up to. Also there are a few chiniese companies making knock off versions of these for cheaper than fatory. The connector plug which out the connector pins is available from the dealer and is part number 1j0 973 724. If you go to a repudable dealer they can also find the connector pins that fit in these connectors.
I have yet to hook these up and may not be able to since I might have to move out of the country, I wont know until the end of March and then I will have to sell my car with allof the stuff on it. I will keep you posted.
why'r you gona have to take off?
and how much is this gona cost?
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I've never had to mess with this part of my car before so I'm not 100% sure how this connects... but if you replace the coil packs with VW ones, will there be any issues connecting to the ignition/timing outputs from the computer?
Stuff like this gets my engineering part of my brain tingling. I get scared that the VW coil packs may have different specifications than the
stock ones. What I don't know scares me... and when I don't know even what the specification catagories are, I get scared even more.
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Zoso
I understand what you meen, we are blessed to have a DME that just modern enough to have one ignition coil per cyl. and not a dustributor like the S14 or the other older engines.
When you look at the ignition coils on your car there is more there than just a coil, there is also a switching transistor which is breaking the connection of the power supply and letting the engergized coil collaps and thus produce the voltage spike that ultimatly goes to ground through your spark plug. This switching component is also in the end of the coil and requires and aditional ground wire instead of grounding through the case like the stock ignition coil. Look at this diagram I found which explanes the internal diagram of the coil.
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what's up guys,i'm new in the club ,but i have done many things to my car !i would like to help you guys with my knowledge if i can! as far as the coils on the plugs go,I took e-36 m3 coils popped em on and plugged them in.you have to cut open the factory loom in order for the wires to extend!then re-loom them.making a hold down bracket is the trickiest part!you also have to grind the mounting holes a little to fit them securely in the valve cover.And yes you will feel a difference in throttle response!!!!!!!
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I would like to see pictures
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vw parts scare me :p My GTi was an electrical nightmare...
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what's up guys,i'm new in the club ,but i have done many things to my car !i would like to help you guys with my knowledge if i can! as far as the coils on the plugs go,I took e-36 m3 coils popped em on and plugged them in.you have to cut open the factory loom in order for the wires to extend!then re-loom them.making a hold down bracket is the trickiest part!you also have to grind the mounting holes a little to fit them securely in the valve cover.And yes you will feel a difference in throttle response!!!!!!!
PICS! email what you have to kroeker.michael@gmail dot com
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how bout host them so we can all see
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hey guys i am trying to get the pictures for everyone to see! so bear with me , but whatever questions you guys have i will try to answer!
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I am working on replacing the stock ignition coils with a COP (Coil On Plug) set up using coils from a VW/Audi 1.8t. I will take some pictures at the time I install them and post some part numbers.
I wouldn't reccomend it. Audi 1.8 liter coil packs were prone to high failure rates. I came from the Audi world, so I know a little about these things.
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In totaly agree with you remarks M42boy, I spent 8 years working on VAG products and have seen many coils fail. I have many extra coils that I will have for just such a problem. I will always keep and extra coil handy. so you may ask why use them, because they are free to me from a local source.
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So, any progress here yet?
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The May/June GRM issues on the M42 and supercharging make me think there could be a gain here that makes plug wires and expensive Magnecor plug wire upgrades unnecessary. Anybody know if this mod ahs been done yet?
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I'll take this one on :)
How does plug and play sound with bmw coils?
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I took a close look at a 95 m3 coil pack and the connector looks identical to the one used on our cars, I also noticed the m3 uses the same plug as our motors.
The only thing left to find out is if they fit. Anyone have access to used/dead m3 coil on plug coil packs? I have a feeling the boots might be a bit too short, but we could always look around for longer ones.
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So how many people would be interested in buying a coil on plug ignition kit?
Also what do you think would be a fair price?
:cool:
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I bought four coils a year ago. They came with extensions that you discarded for M42's. The coil part then bolted on the fender apron. A lot of places sell the same coil for M42's and S50's, 92-97 six cylinders, and maybe a few other models. The M42 lacks a mount for the coils on the valve cover. The other element is the wiring to the coils in their new location. The coil connectors are the same but would need an extension of the harness. Maybe some drilling and tapping of the valve cover would be required to secure the coil mounting bracket(s). Also a new cover as the original would be history.I feel the main factor in the price would be the quality and appearance of the finished product especially the cover plate and finished look of the valve cover. $50 for a utilitarian piece of "homemade sin" up to $200 for a piece that looked sharp and added to the appearance of the motor. But then I'm really full of it!
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The connectors dont need to be lengthened, I checked today.
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BLEH!
Someone get me drawings of some decent coils, like the ones zerofreez is gonna try. I wanna make a bracket, I wanna make a bracket.
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They are already on the M42. I checked FAP99.com and the same coils are used on the 88-91 M42 and the 91-95 325i 6 cylinder. Add the spark plug extension to the M42 coil (sold for $5 separately) and you've got it. The Bremi brand coils come with the extension which you discard for the M42 and stick the plug wire on. BMW sells the coils without the extnsion for the M42 with a different part number. Bremi's are $36.50 from FAP99 and $46 from BMA. BMW's are about $50 from BavAuto and their hi-performance coils are $200 for a set of 4.
I looked at my wires today also and they do come from the firewall so are already long enough. I have access to a lathe, boring mill, etc and there's a scrap yard of materials laying around. Unfortunately this is about number 8 on my list after replacing my leaking rack with one from an E36 or Z3, M3 sway bar links, my daughter's Explorer and daughter number 2's Honda.
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The stock coils (same as the ones on e36 m3's) would work, but they are too large to fit in the space between the valve cover "humps" The kit that I am coming up with will fit between the humps.
If you want to use stock coils, or stock like coils go ahead but they will have to start at the top most part of the valve cover. You will also have a very hard time finding a boot that is that long, or making your own custom wires.
I will have pics for a bracket by tuesday or wednesday next week. :)
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Why not just buy four msd blaster coils (or something similar) and a set of coil ignitors? You could wire them up fairly easily seeing as there are seperate wires going to each coil. Buy some plug/plug wire insulation from, like, DEI, and it's all bettAR.
Just on idea. I'd rather see a pack of coils on the battery tray than a bundle of mass on top of the head.
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I would rather have it be plug and play and oem quality and free up the space in my engine bay. Every other bmw engine has coil on plug so why not us. I dont see an advantage to using a blaster coil setup, the oem parts are very good, and when combined with eliminating the plug wires I would find it hard to believe there would be any measureable difference in performance.
I look at it this way.
I have 163k miles on my car with the stock wires and coils. For less then the cost of new coils and a wire set I can get coil on plug ignition without chopping up my wiring harness. Not to mention that ive never seen anybody with a m42 with coil on plug before.
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Brand-wise, is Bremi pretty reputable? I cannot remember the brand used on many E36's & some E30's, but they had a short lifetime. Is the $10 difference between Bremi's and Bosch's worth it?
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Also, is the coil-to-plug extension that comes on the coils long enough to reach the plugs? It is a little tight between the humps on the valve cover to fit the coils far in. Oh, and so DEFINITIVELY, which coild are going to be used (from what model)?
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Possibly the reason for shorter life is the coils are subject to engine vibration and heat when used in a coil on plug setup. The tradeoff is performance and elimination of plug wires. This approach has been used for 15 years by BMW. The problems have been pretty much eliminated. There's no denying that the coils last longer in the stock M42 configuration. It seems to be 75% of the fender mount setup. Throw in the cost of M42 plug wires and it's still a lower cost deal.
Reread this thread and this is from BM318ist's post on first page:
"I took e-36 m3 coils popped em on and plugged them in.you have to cut open the factory loom in order for the wires to extend then re-loom them.making a hold down bracket is the trickiest part! you also have to grind the mounting holes a little to fit them securely in the valve cover."
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Alrighty, I have 4 spare coils from the last car. I am going to machine off the mounting holes (they are the only part preventing me from fitting in between the valve cover humps. I will weld on some tabs to secure them to a mounting bracket, and machine the bracket. My goal is to have the black plastic 'BMW' cover fit back on.
I just need to get coil-to-plug boot thingies that are long enough. Anyone have dimensions on some (length, not including the top & bottom where parts insert...I want the EFFECTIVE length). Thanks a million.
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here are a few pics of a M50 coil modified to fit in the galley. I had to completely remove the mounting tabs to get it to fit at all. Unfortunately the connector in the M50 boot does not snap onto the plug like the original plugwires do. They do need a bracket pushing the coil down onto the plug. Unfortunately I have no mounting tabs now so I'll have to come up with something different.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/2002maniac/IMG_0248.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/2002maniac/IMG_0249.jpg)
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So, the boot does fully seat on the plug? Are you sure the reason that ti is not staying seated is not just because it si not long enough to fully engage?
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Did you check to see if the coil was functional after you modified it like that? I would have to think that the magnetic field in the coils primary circuit would be weakened by modifiying it like that.
I guess the only way to find out is to get a spark tester and see how far the spark will jump before modification, then try it with the same amount of gap after modification and see if it will still jump that distance.
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So, the boot does fully seat on the plug? Are you sure the reason that ti is not staying seated is not just because it si not long enough to fully engage?
I pulled the plug out to make sure
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Excellent Smithers......
As far as the effects of chopping those tabs off, they are probably minimal to nonexistant. The wire windings inside generate the magnetic field, and the outer steel wrappings just act as a big transmitter for the magnetic field. As long as the main portion is still intact, I doubt there would be any effect.
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So much for the question of whether Bremi's are as good as BMW coils. It seems the answer is do you want to read the first or third line. It looks like only the ears of the mounting tabs were ground off (first photo of coil-on-plug post) and that there is no reduction in the effective area ot the steel wrappings:
(http://www.lactnews.com/e30tech/coil.jpg)
You could hold all four coils down with one piece that attached to the valve cover bolts between the end spark plugs that also had the slots for the factory cover. Perhaps someone with a TIG welder.......
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Interesting note:
I was checking around looking at coild, and after some quick PN checking:
The Bremi coils used on the M42 are the same PN as those used on the M/S50 engines. Soo, I guess all you need to do is buy the boot and hack up your stockers if you want?
I still think I am going to look for smaller units that do not require as much chopping.
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i think thats an error? at least the connectors are different arent they?
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i think thats an error? at least the connectors are different arent they?
Well, I thought it was an error as well, initially. I was looking through realoem and saw that there was a coil-to-plug boot in the ignition ciol diagram for the M42. Pelican Parts' picture of the S50 coil was strikingly familiar looking...so i cross referenced the PN's & sure enough, same PN on the different vehicles. Not only that, but when you do a search for the PN for the boot, the part is listed for the 318iS.
If you search Pelican in the root BMW level, it will shot the result as an E36 part, but if you click on the part, it goes into the E30 section & is titled a part for the E30. I just ordered new valve cover gaskets and 4 plug boots. I also informed them of the discrepancy.
I guess I just have to go get a set of helicoil inserts to repair the like 9 stripped valve cover bolt holes in the head, and I am all set!
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People have been posting that the coils are the same ever since I have been lurking on BMW forums. The similarity has been noted several times in this thread alone. It seems the choice is grinding off the mounting ears of the M50, S50, M42 or "whatever you want to call them" coils and having plug and play electrically or finding smaller coils with a suitable extension and hoping you don't have to chop up your wiring harness too much. You still need something to secure either one. K.I.S.S. Those photos tell me all I need to know.
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Here is a solution. Weld together a bracker that will secure all 4, weld on mounting tabs to the 4 coils, and screw them together. Where to mount from there? Drill as deep as you can into the heads of the 2 valve cover bolts in there, tap the holes, then bolt the bracket assembly onto those tapped boltheads. Simple enough, and should provide adequate support. The things do not have to be held on with much compression, just held down so a bumpy road cannot jump them off the plugs.
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Yeah, I got one of my boots today, definately long enough, but a bracket is definately needed. The boot does not clip onto the top of the spark plug. It has a spring inside that requires the coil be bolted down to somthing.
Also, the 28 year master tech at my work said that those metal "brackets" are what picks up the colapsing primary magnetic field and fires the secondary. He said that it would definately effect performance if they were modified.
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Hmmm, I do not doubt that the master tech guy knows his stuff...but cutting off the tabs should not hurt anything. The magnetic field carrying capacity of the bracket was surely designed around the size of the main portion of the bracket. The bosses for the bolts probably do not have any effect if removed. Now, I guess we will just have to see, but I would put $ down that cutting them off does not do anything.
To say that the coild will not charge at all...that was my tipoff that the tech, while knowledgeable, perhaps does not understand the theory behind E&M (not that I am a physicist myself or anything). Cutting them off might change some fundamental resonant magnetic frequency, or lower the maximum instantaneous field carrying capacity of the bracket, but it in NO WAY would cause the thing to stop functioning/charging the secondary coil. It was either a BIG exaggeration, or a showing of not understanding how the device works. A lot of mechanics, especially older ones, just do not have the grasp of electronic principles needed to know HOW modern cars work (since modern ones have waaay too many electronics). Anyway, not trying to be rude in any way, just saying my $.02.
I drew up a bracket real quick in CAD. Not quite adhering to the KISS principle, but I do not want anything falling off. Here are a few pics (I got lazy on the shading/bump mapping, that's why it looks like crap).
Pic 1 (http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/1N.jpg)
Pic 2 (http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/2N.jpg)
Pic 3 (http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/3N.jpg)
Pic 4 (http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/4N.jpg)
Pic 5 (http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/5N.jpg)
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Hooray for CAD! I especially love the slots for the OEM plastic piece. Aluminum can be purchased in strap of different sizes and heat treats maling fabrication easier.
A TIG welder might eliminate a few pieces.
A question: do the coils need to be grounded. I have the Haynes manual for an E36 and there are steel pieces that connect the coils to each other and a ground wire to a stud on the front of the motor. The 318is coils are probably grounded to the fender apron.
bmwman91, that's some serious modeling. I for one appreciate it! That stuff has come a long way with the computer power available on a desktop. I can remember when it would have taken 20 minutes to render each of your drawings.
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Haha, yeah things have come along quite far. Here I am bitching about it looking crappy, but yeah, 5 or 7 years ago, even that would have been something. Oh well, if I am not getting paid to have it look flawless, it probably won't, at least not something this quick.
These will be grounded, through the brackets that are getting welded onto the coils' outer metal ring (I have a MIG welder, fine for steel, which I was planning on using), which connect to the main bracket (hehe I guess it functions as a bus bar sorta), to the 2 smaller brackets, then into the valve cover through the 2 bottom bolts.
I avoided welding it together for assembly reasons: you have to be able to do the 2 bottom bolts without anything on top...there is NO way to get a wrench in there otherwise. I also did not want my coil packs to be permanently attached to the main bracket, just the small bucket-brackets.
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Heh, crap I need to rotate one of the 2 lower brackets 180deg. The connector will not fit on the coil over cylinder 1! At least not safely...I do not want any wires to be all crammed in there! (the coil connectors will be facing the firewall)
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Hokay,
I fitted the coils on and checked out the fit with the S50 coil/plug boots. Leaving the valve cover alone, they DO make contact, barely. Not good enough...after the springs inside settle this will be a big problem. I want another 4-5mm of seating depth before I feel confident enough to drive this 400 miles to SoCal for a road trip. Sooo...
This weekend when I helicoil my head (the threads that hold on the valve cover are like 9/15 of holes stripped), I will machine the valve cover. Those ~9mm raised bosses around the plug holes are gonna get taken down ~5mm. It is that simple...then the coil will sit where I want it to on the plug head.
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I modeled a coil for fun. If anyone wants a copy of the file, I can export it to a number of common formats, although some parts will lose their texture data. I guess if you just want to be able to get the measurements off of it, then its all good.
Pics:
(http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw000.jpg)
(http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw001.jpg)
(http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw002.jpg)
(http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw003.jpg)
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And an obligatory wireframe shot. Yes, I did EACH individual slat in the transformer core. There are 45 layers...didn't count...measured thickness of 1 and divided it into the overall thickness. I wasn't THAT bored.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw004.jpg)
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This is turning into a real professional bit of work. Milling the valve cover gets out of the plug and play approach. Check the terminal nut below. It could be extended with a sleeve or washers and resecured with loc-tite. A longer threaded piece doesn't seem to be available. This would still maintain the plug and play concept and preserve going back to OEM. If that doesn't get it a new terminal nut could be created . Another possibility:
ISO (International Standards Organization) is an international organization which establishes standards for the production of automobiles and there parts. The ISO height for a spark plug from the seat (http://javascript:glos('Seat')) to the top of the terminal (http://javascript:glos('Terminal')) nut is 50.5mm (1.98")
JIS (http://javascript:glos('JIS')) (Japanese Industrial Standard) is a Japanese organization which establishes standards for the production of Japanese automobiles and there parts. The JIS (http://javascript:glos('JIS')) height for a spark plug from the seat (http://javascript:glos('Seat')) to the top of the terminal (http://javascript:glos('Terminal')) nut is 53mm (2.086")
(http://www.lactnews.com/e30tech/spark%20plug.jpg)
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Hmmm, I forgot that the terminal was just threaded in there...I guess I can check & see how much I could space it out from the top. If I machined the valve cover, it would still work with the OEM setup just fine. I would not mill it flat...there would still be 4-5mm sticking up for the plug wire boots to go over.
Zerofrez got some coil to plug boots that are 6-7mm longer than the ones I am using. They sound perfect for the application, however they were a lot more costly (they were from the Euro M3) than the US S50 ones I got (mine were $7/ea through Pelican Parts, his wuold have been $20/ea + special ordering shipping).
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Hmmm, I DO have some stainless round bar stock at home. I could turn out a custom one on the lathe in my garage if need be...not ALL terminals are removable.
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Lol, postwhoring it up again.
I added some detail to the coil. Enjoy.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw005.jpg)
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Alright, sorry for the 4-in-a-row.
I took a bunch of pics over the past couple days. I put them in a quick webpage with descriptions (ripped off the format from my suspension rebuild documentary lol).
Enjoy:
BANG! ...ow my eye (http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/cop1.htm)
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Lets see it with all four coils on the valvecover and wires ran :)
Possibly a test run?
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Lets see it with all four coils on the valvecover and wires ran :)
Possibly a test run?
This weekend. Hopefully it will fun fine. I doubt the welding damaged anything, but who is to say.
I think I will run 2 side-rails of like .25x.25" bar, with cross pieces over the tapped boltheads where I will use threaded studs to secure them down. I think I will add grounding straps to the coils as well...like drill small holes into thhe iron slats and screw on some 12ga wire.
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I highly doubt that you need grounding straps. Almost every other coil ive seen doesnt have an external metal mount, its all plastic.
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Really? Well, that is good to know. There is NO place where the coil's body seems to ground?
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there is a fat ground wire going to each coil through the harness.
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there is a fat ground wire going to each coil through the harness.
Yes, but it connects to the coils inside the package, and does not touch the iron core/slats. I was just worried about whether the core needed to be grounded. Seems to be a no, but I may do something anyway, JIC.
Warning, long:
Well, there are 3 wires. They are all the same size (according to Chilton), and are as follows:
Pin 1) 1mm core Black. This is the negative side of the primary coil, and is grounded momentarily only when the motronic grounds it through a switching transistor. The rest of the time it sits at 12V because of: Pin 3
Pin 3) This is a 1mm core Green wire that is directly connected to the 12V supply switched by the key/ignition switch. It is the positive side of the primary coil.
Pin 2) This is a 1mm core Brown/Orange wire. It connects the secondary coil to the ground distribution point. The secondary has neither a positive nor a negative side in this application. Two sparks are actually made upon each ignition event triggered by the Motronic. Each one going in the opposite direction, one after the other. This is from the generation of the magnetic field in the ferrous core upon the grounding of the primary coil (creating a current in one direction), then the immediate collapse of that field when the ground is cut off again, stopping the current flow in the primary, and causing a current in the secondary moving in the opposite direction.
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My question was prompted by the following:
With the wires detached and placed slightly out of the way, you can now remove each of the six coils. Each coil is fastened to the valve cover using two screws. On two of the coils, there are two small ground straps that connect the coil to the stud on the cylinder head. Take note of these ground straps - they must be installed properly when you are finished, otherwise your car may encounter problems. These two ground straps are shown marked by the greens arrow in Figure 8 (http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Spark-Plugs/pic21.jpg) and Figure 9 (http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Spark-Plugs/pic16.jpg) (coil already removed in this photo).
Complete article here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Spark-Plugs/E36-Spark-Plugs.htm (http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Spark-Plugs/E36-Spark-Plugs.htm)
The M42 coils may be grounded to the fender apron. My E36 manual shows the same setup with the coils connected with thin metal pieces and one ground wire to a motor bracket. The piece is #10 in the realoem drawing below. If this is unnecessary so much the better.
(http://www.lactnews.com/e30tech/coil%20plate.jpg)
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Hmmm. Well, I guess to be safe I will make sure they are all grounded.
EDIT:
I was a little vored & modeled the plug boots as well. At least now I have some good dimensioned data to use for future stuff. Have fun.
More detail then it probably needed.
http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw006.jpg
I even decal'ed it. Good practice.
http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw007.jpg
And here it is, where it belongs.
http://www.e30tuner.com/coilonplug/bmw008.jpg