M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine management => Topic started by: Master on June 18, 2007, 06:06:12 AM
-
After a while of comparison, consideration and confusion I decided to start this thread. :confused:
I hope it will bring some clarity and order into the myriad of different controllers/piggybacks/standalones/converters etc. surrounding the automotive enthusiast :)
The List:
Product: LC-1 (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16169&cat=262&page=1&xid=71848057f45cb269416e7e2d5bb11da8); Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: Innovate Motorsports;
Main Features: 2 programmable outputs; auto calibration; software;
Current Price: LC-1 controller with Bosch sensor 199 USD;
Product: 2J1 (http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm); Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: Tech Edge;
Main Features: analogue channel capture and RPM capture; auto calibration; software;
Current Price: 2J1 controller with Bosch sensor ~199 USD;
Product: ZT2 (http://zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm); Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: Zeitronix;
Main Features: RPM, EGT, MAP, TPS input; software;
Current Price: ZT2 controller with Bosch O2 sensor 279 USD;
Product: JAW (http://14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm) (Just Another Wideband); Type: Wideband O2 Sensor Controller; Company: --;
Main Features: 2 programmable outputs; software;
Current Price: DIY kit without display 45 USD;
Product: SMT6 (http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt6.asp)/SMT7 (http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt7.asp); Type: Piggyback; Company: Perfect Power;
Main Features: Allows to adjust ignition timing, fuel, MAF;
Current Price: 407 USD SMT6 / 568 USD SMT7;
Product: VEMS V3.3 (http://www.vems.co.uk/vems.html); Type: Standalone; Company: --;
Main Features: Integrated WBO2 controller; 2 Knock sensors; 2 EGT sensors;
Current Price: ~700 USD;
Product: Mega Squirt II Extra (http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/); Type: Standalone; Company: --;
Main Features: very similar to VEMS with addition of expansion daughter boards; Full List (http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_general.htm#features);
Current Price: Mega Squirt II DIY Kit ~ 250USD + additional expansion boards ~70$;
Product: Adaptronic (http://www.adaptronic.co.uk/); Type: Standalone; Company: Adaptronic;
Main Features: very feature rich, see list for details; Full List (http://www.adaptronic.co.uk/technical.htm);
Current Price: 1200 USD;
Product: M400 (http://www.motec.com.au/m400m600.htm); Type: Standalone; Company: MoTeC;
Main Features: feature rich, expandable feature for a fixed fee, see list for details; Full List (http://www.motec.com.au/pdf/m400specs.pdf);
Current Price: ~3600 USD;
Product: LEMG3 (http://www.linkecu.com/products/engine-management/lemg3-whatdoesitdo); Type: Standalone; Company: Link;
Main Features: very feature rich, see list for details; Full List (http://www.linkecu.com/products/engine-management/Wire-In/lemg3-specifications);
Current Price: ~ 910 USD;
This is by no means a full list of available products on the market, there are, a lot of other with varying price/performance
The Goal:
Discuss most popular and available products, find out which systems or their combination are most cost effective for managing/tuning our engines.
-
Initially wanted to include, more products in the list, but it turns out to be somewhat time consuming, so stay tuned for updates.
Would be interesting to find out, if there is some advanced piggyback system that can handle a wideband O2 sensor, MAF conversion, hotter cams, and retain drivebility + smooth idle of the stock ECU without braking the bank
I'm not planning to go forced induction, so boost control or some crazy methanol/water/NOS injections don't interest me.
Maybe someday we can include bmwman91's MAF conversion kit into the list (if he decides to market it) ;)
-
Ok, after some further reading into this matter, found out that it is difficult for some to tune with a piggyback system.
What concerns other enthusiast is
1) the fact that you have to pay local tuning shops for configuring the piggyback (I think it can be done yourself with the help of wide band O2 sensor)
2) and the fact that the ECU overrides any changes made by the piggyback any time it detects light knock and thus may result in lower performance than stock (others say that this happens because the tuning shops do a slack job of configuring the piggyback)
Would be interesting to hear your opinions on this matter
-
ps. by VEMS Standalone whit wideO2 knock ignition injector.
-
Megasquirt is probably the most cost-effective. With V3, or the V1 + "-Extra" code, it is not too hard to do. Buying your own wide-band sensor is a must.
A lot of the stand-alones use a MAP sensor. This has some benefits, and some drawbacks. Either way, you would not need a MAF sensor on there. The tough part is though, that if you want to just run fuel with the stand-alone, you need to leave the AFM on the car. If the ECU loses that signal (and is still controlling the ignition timing), it will give you a nice red Check Engine Light and retard the timing a lot. This would sorta defeat the whole purpose lol.
So, you have to do fuel AND spark to the Megasquirt/other system. If you want the Motronic to still control the cluster gauges, you would need to either unplug the Check Engine light bulb, or find a clever way to simulate the inputs to the module.
It is a complicated bit of business, dealing with the stand-alones. I learned a lot from the countless mistakes I made along the way when I Megasquirte my first 318iS. There is a reason I left the stock management alone on the second one lol!
-
ps. by VEMS Standalone whit wideO2 knock ignition injector.
Thanks for the tip, this standalone is really powerful :eek: and cheap
So as it now stands, the solution to a complete engine management would be either:
Mega Squirt V3 board (for fuel and ignition) + wideband controller (such as VC-1) (to correctly setup the fueling/ignition tables) roughly 600$ (250$ for MS + 300$ for VC-1)
VEMS V3.3 Engine Management System which basically eliminates the need for an additional WBO2 controller, and takes care of anything you can through at your engine, providing you have enough time to configure it all :D All this for roughly 700$
Well the VEMS system seems more favorable, but both standalones have the drawback of being tricky to to install.
On the other hand, a piggyback being more easy to install, doesn't provide the full pack of features and ads the complexity of the stock ECU interfering with the whole process of tuning.
This is how I see it anyway.
-
Can the VEMS dealy control the gauge cluster as well? It would be sweet if it did.
-
Can the VEMS dealy control the gauge cluster as well? It would be sweet if it did.
Well, no it doesn't apparently, so you still have to keep the stock ECU and remove the "Check Engine" light as you wrote above, but it has a digital output for an LCD like this one:
(http://www.vems.ee/image/lcd_4x20_small.jpg)
You can check the full feature list here: VEMS Specs (http://www.vems.co.uk/vems.html)
P.S. BTW I love your South Park reference :)
-
After some googling, drinking mineral water and some more googling I found this thread (http://www.driftworks.com/forum/technical/31726-standalone-ecus.html) at driftworks.com concerning standalone ECU's (pics of happy turbocharged bmw's owners running VEMS inside).
-
Not sure of the cost but Motec is great stuff. I was at a track when they were developing it. The car owner took the ECU and threw it on the passenger side floor (sheet metal). The Motec's guy's eyes got real big as the car drove off. It worked great.
-
Not sure of the cost but Motec is great stuff. I was at a track when they were developing it. The car owner took the ECU and threw it on the passenger side floor (sheet metal). The Motec's guy's eyes got real big as the car drove off. It worked great.
Yes, MOTEC is what the pros with unlimited budget use, but for normal people I just don't see the benefit of paying a quadruple price for something, that can be achieved with Mega Squirt for example.
To prove my point, I just checked their offerings, and the most optimal for our cars would be the M400 system (as it is specifically designed for 4 cylinders). Well, it's feature list (http://www.motec.com.au/pdf/M400_ECU.pdf) clearly doesn't justify the price: £1791.88 inc vat for the unit, and another £440.63 inc vat for the wide band lambda control upgrade…
Then again it might be what quality is really worth…
-
Ok, doing a little cleanup of my post, as they where somewhat non informative and misleading.
Important thing to note is that almost all standalone/piggyback solutions require a separate wideband O2 controller if you are planning on using a wideband (VEMS being a rare exception)
-
Adaptronic seems to be an even more advanced standalone system, here's the feature list:
* 3D Dual Fuel and Ignition maps
* Configurable ignition and injection outputs to suit different applications
* Inputs for water temperature, air temperature, auxiliary temperature (e.g turbo bearing housing temp), manifold air pressure, throttle position, knock sensor, EGO (exhaust gas oxygen)
* Outputs for four injector groups - allows full sequential injection on a 4-cylinder, or semi-sequential injection on a 6- or 8- cylinder. Up to 16 cylinder engines.
* Outputs for two igniter groups - allows for wasted spark systems on 4-cylinder and 6 cylinder, or conventional distributor systems.
* Special features for programmable EFI for oddfire V6 engines such as the PRV V6 found in the Delorean and Renault V6
* Eight configurable auxiliary outputs - four of which are configurable as high current outputs, three of which are PWM capable.
* PC interface
* Field upgradeable firmware
* Eight configurable auxiliary digital inputs
* Datalogging via PC software
Special Features
* The most advanced self learning adaptive fuel control - with configurable tolerances and loop gains, and conditions under which adaptive behaviour takes place.
* Selectable AFR against load and RPM (including high load WOT) for adaptive system to converge to.
* Adaptive learning can be used fully transparent to driving - allowing engine use whilst ECU adapts to any engine modifications, cams, boost increase, exhaust modifications...
* Fueling - Open loop, Closed loop, and two adaptive modes - Rapid learning and slow converging.
* Rapid self mapping even from virgin base maps.
* Dual ignition and Fuel maps.
* Narrow-band (factory EGO sensor) closed loop fuel control.
* 5v Wideband EGO Sensor control.
* Direct Serial Plug in for the following Wideband. controllers - Direct digital link, no need for analogue connection.
* Direct serial plug in for M&W UEGO LS4 Wideband controller.
* Direct serial plug in for TechEdge Wideband controller.
* Direct serial plug in for Innovate Motorsports LC1 Wideband Controller.
* Direct control for Zeitronic Wideband Controller.
* High current programmable outputs - allows direct drive of solenoid valves for boost control, air bypass etc..
* Special function programmable outputs - allows control of water injection (against inlet air temp), nitrous systems, anti-pollution purge valves, air conditioners etc in relation to user defined value of any sensor.
* Open-loop idle bypass control - allows configuration of increased idle bypass amount based on low battery, electrical load, air conditioner etc..
* Programmable for infinite different crank angle sensor waveforms, with up to 3 trigger inputs, and allows input with teeth that are increments of a degree apart, or non symmetrical odd teeth trigger wheels.
* Two stage soft and hard RPM limiting, with choice of Fuel Cut, ignition cut, or simultaneous.
* Electronic wastegate boost level control.
* Electronic BOV control - Select activation via MAP level, TPS voltage and duration of opening.
* Engine warm-up temperature related rev limiting.
* Ability to work and self calibrate with nearly all original engine sensors.
* Selectable Batch fire on crank when set to sequential mode for extra fuel on starting.
* Sophisticated Ignition knock control, with selective blanking between certain crank angle points, user definable knock map, allowing user to tell the ECU to ignore certain engine noise, e.g created from valve train at certain RPM/loads, engine mounting, and active filtering of background engine noise.
* Warm up / Cold start enrichment.
* Very advanced asyncronomynous throttle enrichment - allowing extra fueling to be added, independant and between the regular injector pulses. Programmable from seperate map.
* Stepper motor and solenoid idle speed control.
* 5v Linear throttle pot input or digital throttle switches capability.
* Vehicle Speed input control and actuation.
* In gear RPM sensing with boost and load control.
* Turbo timer - user selectable for temperature and duration.
* Nitrous oxide solenoid triggering with user selectable fuel enrichment and ignition retardation.
* Full throttle flat gear shifting, with selectable RPM parameters.
Although it doesn't have an integrated wideband controller :(
-
Ok, as it stands now, the battle is between these standalone systems:
OMEX 600 vs VEMS V3.3 vs Adaptronic E420C
Pros:
VEMS: integrated wideband controller; configurable knock sensors; price
OMEX: Advanced support for tachometers, traction/launch control
Adaptronic: Super advanced management options
Cons:
VEMS: Not as feature rich as Adaptronic
OMEX: Limited in Spark/Injector control; not as feature rich as Adaptronic
Adaptronic: Price
Price:
VEMS: £340 +VAT
OMEX: £545 +VAT + Price of Wideband controller
Adaptronic: £600 + Price of Wideband controller
So the OMEX appears to be a no deal compared to Adaptronic, and VEMS is a bargain for the price…
I would love go with the Adaptronic + Wideband, but it would require me to sell a kidney or smthn :D
-
Yes, MOTEC is what the pros with unlimited budget use, but for normal people I just don't see the benefit of paying a quadruple price for something, that can be achieved with Mega Squirt for example.
To prove my point, I just checked their offerings, and the most optimal for our cars would be the M400 system (as it is specifically designed for 4 cylinders). Well, it's feature list (http://www.motec.com.au/pdf/M400_ECU.pdf) clearly doesn't justify the price: £1791.88 inc vat for the unit, and another £440.63 inc vat for the wide band lambda control upgrade…
Then again it might be what quality is really worth…
I am waiting on a price for a system specifically for the M42. I'll post it as soon as I get it. The software is definitely first rate but the price may be prohibitive as noted above.
-
I am waiting on a price for a system specifically for the M42. I'll post it as soon as I get it. The software is definitely first rate but the price may be prohibitive as noted above.
I'm listening......
-
Ok, did a major cleanup of the whole thread, it should be much more relevant and understandable now.
So basically it has all come down to this:
as someone said:Hardware is only as good as the software
It doesn't matter if the hardware can support lots of stuff, but if you have the software to utilize it…
So I downloaded and checked the software for different standalones, and was quite surprised.
For example VEMS and MS actually use the same software: MegaTune.
So this in fact may justify the huge price range of standalone systems.
For example software provided with the Link standalones is more friendlier and easier to understand than the complex and universal MegaTune (judging from the looks anyway, as I hadn't any experience in tuning with either), and I imagine that MoTeC has an even more advanced and friendlier software
So if deciding which management system to use, be sure to check the software out, as the quality of the tools often reflects the quality of the job
As for me, I think I will go with the MSII-extra, as it provides the same features as VEMS for a slightly lower price, but mainly because the amount of manuals and support is far greater for the MS than for VEMS, and MS certainly has a bright future, as it has gathered a great momentum and support with the enthusiast crowd.
You can find some additional info by reading this (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9871437) thread I started at bimmerforums
-
Megasquirt will cost a lot more than what you state.
The computer is that much, but you need much more than just that, think closer to a grand all said and done.
-
Megasquirt will cost a lot more than what you state.
The computer is that much, but you need much more than just that, think closer to a grand all said and done.
I don't see how this is ture. My prices are infact correct, and MegaSquirt II V3 PCB costs just below 250$, plus if you are willing to have some kind knock detection, you have to pay about 57$ (don't remember the exact price) for the knocksense expansion board, plus you have to get the LC-1 wideband controller which will set you back another 300$ (read somewhere that it cost 200$ not so long ago)
So the total would be ~650$ (added extra 50$ for some misc stuff (wires, connectors, etc.))
As I noted above almost all standalones/piggybacks require a wideband controller
I don't count such things as maf, as they are not part of a standalone, and require you to purchase them separately independet of the system you are using
The tuning itself can be done on the road provided you have a good base map
Also note that the LC-1 is a one time buy, so if you chose to update your system when MS II PCB V4 comes out, you would just have to pay for the kit itself
To bad MS III wasn't announced before the summer, would be a killer ecu definitely :rolleyes:
-
I don't see how this is ture. My prices are infact correct, and MegaSquirt II V3 PCB costs just below 250$, plus if you are willing to have some kind knock detection, you have to pay about 57$ (don't remember the exact price) for the knocksense expansion board, plus you have to get the LC-1 wideband controller which will set you back another 300$ (read somewhere that it cost 200$ not so long ago)
So the total would be ~650$ (added extra 50$ for some misc stuff (wires, connectors, etc.))
As I noted above almost all standalones/piggybacks require a wideband controller
I don't count such things as maf, as they are not part of a standalone, and require you to purchase them separately independet of the system you are using
The tuning itself can be done on the road provided you have a good base map
Also note that the LC-1 is a one time buy, so if you chose to update your system when MS II PCB V4 comes out, you would just have to pay for the kit itself
To bad MS III wasn't announced before the summer, would be a killer ecu definitely :rolleyes:
How many sensors on the M42 will you need to replace to get MS working?
-
Hmm, you may have a point here... Thanks for the tip, guess it will take some time to answer your question :)
-
The Motec system is pricey and requires the purchase of additional sensors, etc. Minimum of $3500 with a bunch of extra work. Full system - bolt on and plug in goes for $5000.
-
Hmm, you may have a point here... Thanks for the tip, guess it will take some time to answer your question :)
Sorry, I was not trying to put your idea down, I love the idea of MS and I live the idea of hooking one up to an M42. Bmwman91 has done it and can probably give you an indication of the work necessary and possible costs.
I just did not want you thinking it was going to be as low buck as it appeared. I made that same mistake with MS a while back when I started looking into it.
-
The Motec system is pricey and requires the purchase of additional sensors, etc. Minimum of $3500 with a bunch of extra work. Full system - bolt on and plug in goes for $5000.
The E30 M3 Group A that I look after runs a MoTech M48. We are still running 2.3ltr 4 pot. We also have CAS, IAT, Ignition control, Lamda, TPS and fuel pump control.
Yes it is pricey. I think it cost $8000 AUS by the time we finished but we had to redo allot of stuff cause of the "shonky" install (we didn't go to a MoTec installer, but used a "mate" who is not as reliable as we thought). The answer is though, that this is a full blown race car and while MoTec is good for anything and everything there are definatly better priced options out there.
I know the ex TOMS Carina Super tourer I used to work on used MoTec M800, but It was way overmy head then. I just tried to keep up with the engine guys then.
I am about to try to make a new loom for the M3 as the current one is a bit of a bitsa.
As for my own car. I'm keeping it stock, but the VEMS does look good on paper.
Cristian
-
Hestec, http://www.hestec.fi/english/index.htm
That is the preferred EMS for the Finnish rally drivers.
-
MS can use any CLT/IAT sensors you like if you know what you're doing. I use all the original sensors (other than IAT because that's part of the binned AFM). additional costs are coil drivers, pwm idle control, stuff like that. Costs vary depending on skill and how you want to run it (I know that's vague, but is a big question). I've run MS1 extra and MS2 extra on an M42, I've also installed MS1 extra on Dan's IS. MS1 extra HR is the best code to use currently for a novice. this will change in time. master i'd recommend that's what you use.
also fwiw my current car (and dan's for that matter!) can be switched from running MS to moronic in a matter of a few seconds (swap two plugs over).
my car is currently running MS2 extra for fuel and sparks.
Spark tuning requires a rolling road, no other way of optimising timing properly imo. fuel tuning isn't that difficult, I've never got accel enrichment and starting under all conditions quite as good as factory with MS, but that's not due to MS but my ability imo.
Megatune is ok, I use megalogviewer to do most of the VE/sparks/AFR table tuning because the software does need improving in terms of usability in these respects. MT will be improved soon.
I can't see me choosing another standalone over megasquirt, once you really get on top of it, it's brilliant. it is a steeper learning curve than with other systems, and you do have to have a much better understanding that with other systems, but that's all part of the fun. If you want something straightforward, its not for you; but once all said and done it's very powerful and reliable.
If anyone is interested in a complete ready-to-roll MS setup for a standardish M42, let me know, i could be interested in investigating this if there's interest. I would use the msns 1 setup, and could do it in such a way as you could get it running better than a factory M42 with only a few hours installation.
-
Tim_s
I need a timing map for my Haltech. I know that it is not the same but rather I need just another opinion on timing increase and rate of change form one load point to another. What ever you have would be apreciated.
-
bmwman91 do you have any write-ups or notes you made during the install of MS on your first car? I considering putting together a set-up with a friend who is very schooled in MS and runs MS and EPIS on his turbo MR-S. I was just curious if you had any M42 specific maps or notes or really anything, haha. Thanks.
-
I've updated the list with 3 more wideband controllers, I think they are worth to consider. I personally am thinking on going with JAW, as LC-1 has more hype to it than it should, I also don't like the idea of LC-1 hanging under my car in pouring rain (It rains a lot where I come from), and I don't believe that a complex and reliable circuitry could fit in the connector itself (as with the LC-1)
Take a look at the Precision Wideband Controller (http://www.megamanual.com/PWC/) to see what I mean
-
I've updated the list with 3 more wideband controllers, I think they are worth to consider. I personally am thinking on going with JAW, as LC-1 has more hype to it than it should, I also don't like the idea of LC-1 hanging under my car in pouring rain (It rains a lot where I come from), and I don't believe that a complex and reliable circuitry could fit in the connector itself (as with the LC-1)
Take a look at the Precision Wideband Controller (http://www.megamanual.com/PWC/) to see what I mean
Where the hell do you get your info from? LC1 can go in the bay/interior, only an idiot would suggest putting it under the car. no circuitry is in the cable, it uses a standard bosch LSU 4.2 sensor. mine's been very handy (and has been in the car for circa 25k miles now). when i was without MS, the logworks s/w was really useful. The two analogues outputs are calibrated separaetly for my lpg and fuel ecus, which is very funky.
-
I think the LC-1 is well worth the price. I have put over 15000 miles on mine so far. The control module sits in the battery tray by the firewall since the harness was not long enough to go in the car, nor would the connector have fit through the hole.
The control module is more than big enough to house the circuitry. Trust me, it is not hard to fit digital systems in small spaces. The whole Megasquirt dealy could fit on a board 1/10th the size of the one we buy, but it would not be buildable by hand. I am sure Innovate has a company install all the little surface mount components on a wave soldering machine or something. Size really means nothing in electronics these days.
-
only an idiot would suggest putting it under the car.
I guess Idiots at Innovate have written this (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf) manual then:
1. Find a suitable location under your vehicle where the LC-1 body can be mounted. Using
zip ties or other suitable method, fasten the body of the LC-1 device securely to the framerails
or other mounting points as far away from the heat of the exhaust system as the sensor
cable allows. DO NOT zip-tie the LC-1 by the cables.
Also did you cut the wire from the sensor and lengthen it so it would reach the interior?
-
I think the LC-1 is well worth the price. I have put over 15000 miles on mine so far. The control module sits in the battery tray by the firewall since the harness was not long enough to go in the car, nor would the connector have fit through the hole.
The control module is more than big enough to house the circuitry. Trust me, it is not hard to fit digital systems in small spaces. The whole Megasquirt dealy could fit on a board 1/10th the size of the one we buy, but it would not be buildable by hand. I am sure Innovate has a company install all the little surface mount components on a wave soldering machine or something. Size really means nothing in electronics these days.
Thanks for a decent reply, I appreciate that.
-
no mine is in the bay zip-tied behind the inlet using only the stuff supplied with the LC-1, but innovate sell extension leads for the bosch sensor if you can't extend it yourself. i already have my lpg injector harness going through the bulkhead so didn't want any more going through there.
lol i take it back then, that doc is dumb suggesting under the car, but obviously if you live somewhere where it rains a lot, its stupid to do that. that's just common sense.
-
Lots of quick-disconnects...keep it in your pocket. THEN it'll be safe.
Err yeah.
Is that a wideband controller in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?