M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: Boyracer on June 12, 2007, 04:18:24 PM
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Finally on sunday I bagged some spare parts from german ebay:
E36 M42 Cylinderhead
E36 M42 Valves (6 mm stem)
E36 M42 Valve springs
E36 M42 Hydro lifters
E36 M42 Camshafts + camshaft carriers
E36 M42 Camshaft sprockets
E36 M42 Pistons
E36 M42 Con rods + bearings
E36 M42 Valve cover
Let's hope cylinderhead is 100% ok as seller claimed it to be. All for a 127€ + shipping. This means I can start building a performance cylinderhead while keeping my 318is in daily use. :cool:
GOALS
I have set 3 power goals for the project, 1 is the easiest (and minimum) and 3 is hardest:
1. 180 hp (100 hp / liter)
2. 192 hp (same as 2.5 liter M50)
3. 200 hp (1.8 liter Integra Type-R)
Also the engine must stay emission legal and work should cost next to nothing. Oh, and no forced induction :eek:
Is the goal achieveable? Mild Shrick cams + Custom ECU gives out around 165 hp on otherwise stock M42 without revving to really silly numbers. Mild porting of intake and valve + valve seat job can give upto 10% increase in good case. Combine that to slight bumb on rev limiter and you are already at 180 hp. After that it gets more challenging...
THE PLAN
Basically the plan is to keep the bottom end quite stock while squeezing everything out from cylinderhead while initially retaining stock intake and exhaust manifold. Exhaust and cat might be changed to lighter and more freely flowing 2.5" custom unit.
Cylinderhead
I try to get the cylinderhead to perform reliably atleast upto 7500 rpm altough I'm quite hopeful that even 8000 RPM is possible with lighter hydro lifters and bit stiffer valve springs. There are equations for calculating effects of these changes, I will write more about them later on.
Hydro lifters from VW. They are some 20 gr lighter / unit. This reduced mass (10% of valve+spring+valve plate+lifter combination) alone allows rev limiter to be safely raised 6800 -> 7200.
Valve springs from Dbilas (only 130€ + shipping!). Not sure how much stiffer they are than stock but since they can be used with camshafts with over 300 degree duration they must be quite a bit heftier. Few examples:
10% stiffer - rev limiter 7200 -> 7600
15% stiffer - rev limiter 7200 -> 7800
20% stiffer - rev limiter 7200 -> 8050 Partytime!!!1!
I'm hopeful that Dbilas can deliver info about stiffness, if not I will have them measured to be 100% sure.
Valves will be stock but with backcut to reduce weight and improve flow on small camshaft lifts. If possible, I will also have the part of valve stems that is in the intake port to be thinned 6 mm -> 5 mm. This slightly improves flow and again decreases weight :)
Valve seats will stay stock but they will be ground to 3 angles to improve flow. Intake seats will be also increased in diameter and then blended to intake port for better flow.
Valve guides. Not sure what to do with these. It's possible to ground then completely down to intake port wall or replace them with race guides that are bit thinner.
Intake ports. Bit of smoothing and making sure cylinderhead and intake runners match without any steps etc.
Compression. I think I will remove 0,5-1 mm from cylinderhead, that will increase compression from 10.5 -> 11 to 11.5. That is around 2-3% increase in torque (and hence power). This is a cheap operation, only some 20-30€ so money very well spent compared to power gain. Running with 98 octane (not sure what that is in US) should not cause knock and anyway knock sensors on E36 will be good insurance :)
Camshafts
Camshafts will be regrinds to keep the costs down, I think 270 degrees and 10.5 mm lift is the upper limit. This should keep valve overlap and hence emissions on check.
Intake
Intake will stay stock, maybe slightly enlarged TB because I have one stock unit coming and I might as well try to modify it. Remember that Metric Mechanics got 210 hp trough stock TB!
I have been thinking building completely new intake runners and plenum if stock system is too restrictive on high revs. This would most certainly mean loss of low rev torque.
Injectors
New injectors needs to be around 300 cc / min. It's better to have just enough flow capacity than too much. Too large capacity means problems on idle when ECU cannot control the injection time accurately enough leading to high emissions.
ECU and sensors
Stock ECU with custom made chip on local dyno. Stock unit should be ok to revs I plan to use. Aftermarket units can cost the same amount as everything else on this project so I'll pass it this time. It would be the ideal solution but I think power gain (more RPM bins, sequential injection, two injector banks etc.) is only few % compared to well programmed stock ECU. Megasquirt is tempting but I think there is some issues with ignition?
I initially thought building a MAF adapter but it seems that it is not worth the effort really so VAF will stay on for now. I have just ordered development tools for Atmel AVR microcontrollers and I am planning of designing Alpha N unit that disposes need for VAF or MAF, it basically pretends being a stock VAF towards ECU but without any airflow restriction. More on that later :)
Powertrain
Flywheel will be M40 unit lightened by few kg's (9.9 -> 7). This is very important, I think M42 with dual mass flywheel has the most ridiculous power/flywheel+clutch mass ratio of all engines BMW made at the beginning of 90's!
Stock 3.45 open diff, might be changed to 3.45 25% LSD. Otherwise some grip problems might appear on track :)
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interesting plan. I would love to hear more about it as i'm starting my build in T minus 17 days. (i arrive home from austria) and i've got a spare engine, 2 m47 cranks, an m44 crank, s50 pistons, and a whole lot more to play around with. I would love to squeeze as much out of this thing as possible while keeping it reliable. what are you going to do for engine management? I'm looking at the haltech systems...
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do the haltech, i can help with the set up and it is well worth it.
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these goals are very reasonable and are actually what i hope to accomplish with my m42 as well. other than the option of the DASC, i wanted to reach the 200hp as mark as well. your setup sounds similar to what i would be running. ill do a quick run down.
engine
stock bottom end
rebuilt head with cams and proper valvetrain
completely rebuilt timing equipment
a maf setup with MS or some sort of tuning
drivetrain
8lb. m20 ltwt flywheel
new stock m20 clutch if not a stage 1
med. case 4.10 LSD
z4 3.0 ssk
uuc dssr
exhaust
custom 2.5" from centerpiece back (after 2-1)
electronic exhaust cutout before cat which will be replaced with a resonator
i believe our best bet would be tuning. bmws are known for being well underrated. if you can unleash its true potential by fine tuning the computer, 200hp is easily achievable.
if the bottom end is tinkered with, the whole process will be much easier.
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what do you all think of metrics "pulse intake manifold" I was doing some reading on it and it looks very feasible, and i can't imagine it being that hard to duplicate... for a 15% tq gain it would be really nice to have.
What are the specs of the head you plan to build greeny?
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MM pulse reflection chambers are nice idea and I see no reason why they could not work. It's easy to see that air reflected from backside of closing valve would rather go straight to reflection pipe instead of changing direction and going back all the way to intake plenum.
Should be quite simple to implement as DIY, few big holes to intake runners and then weld some aluminun tube there with other end capped off :)
Too bad it will not work with E36 M42 I think :(
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MM pulse reflection chambers are nice idea and I see no reason why they could not work. It's easy to see that air reflected from backside of closing valve would rather go straight to reflection pipe instead of changing direction and going back all the way to intake plenum.
Should be quite simple to implement as DIY, few big holes to intake runners and then weld some aluminun tube there with other end capped off :)
Too bad it will not work with E36 M42 I think :(
just get an e30 m42 intake manifold. bolts right up and they're cheap.
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just get an e30 m42 intake manifold. bolts right up and they're cheap.
E30 intake manifold will not fit E36, the angle of engine seems to be different so the manifold will be higher and will stop hood from closing...
I have been thinking using lower part of E30 intake (runners) and constucting custom intake plenum from scratch (with M50 2.5 liter TB) on top of that. But I will start with E36 stock intake :)
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I did a microcontroller-based MAF conversion from the VAF. It was simple since the systems directly measure incoming air flow. Of course, not 1 kilowatt (not even a fraction of one) was netted doing this, but driveability improved.
I have thought about going Alpha-N, or at least speed-density. Unfortunately, this is completely reliant on the volumetric efficiency of the motor and has to be re-tuned every time you make a physical change to anything in the intake system.
My recommendation would be to convert to a MAF. Check out PIC microcontrollers...you can do a MAF conversion with an 8-pin PIC that has a ton of built in options (PWM, capture/compare module, 4 ADC channels, internal 1-8MHz adjustable clock, 2 8 bit timers, 1 16 bit timer, etc). PIC12F683 was the one.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing how this goes for you. For the time being, the stock AFM should be more than adequate! Good luck!
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Hi bmwman! I read about your experiences on MAF conversion, interesting stuff and great service to community :)
I do have E34 540i MAF already as I was planning to perform MAF conversion so it is not out of question. I am little worried about strong intake pulses with reground cams that can feck up the measurement.
Retuning Alpha N after every change gets tiresome and expensive too. So I am studying about possibility of self learning unit. It would intercept lambda signal before it goes to ECU (ECU would be fed simulated lambda signal to fool it) and based on intercepted lambda value Alpha N box could "learn" the VE values for different RMP/TPS combinations. Quite a lot of variables and questions at this phase, I would appreciate if you can help out in this :)
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Hello J.
Don't touch the exhaust manifold yet. Just do the engine work first then the exhaust since it truly flows quit well as this dynochart will tell. You can see that the max torque is too near of max HP, which just means that exhaust manifold flows too much making the car not the respond to throttle not so good. The torque band is little bit too narrow. To fix this I should make 5 step exhaus manifold, meaning that the manifold starts narrower and widens up in five steps.
So, the exhaut of a e30 m2 atleast is not a problem. However, I have a cat-back which little bit increases the "problem".
Dynochart http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2888
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Too bad I missed the dynoday, I was really keen to have baseline before any modifications :(
Exhaust manifold will most propable stay stock forever, difficult to make a new one and stock unit is more than adequate...
I will most propably make complete custom exhaust. So everything after exhaust manifold collector will be new. I think 2 1/4" is the best diameter for exhaust but might have to go as large as 2 1/2" because of larger selection of mufflers and resonators. That might hurt bottom end torque but help on high revs. Also, you can always make larger diameter smaller (restrictor plate) but you cannot make smaller diameter larger :)
When I measured it stock E36 exhaust was around 2 1/4" between exhaust manifold and resonator, after that is went down to 2" until muffler.
Interesting thing was that there was clear purpose made dent on 2" part that made the effective diameter even smaller! Not sure if it was because of backpressure etc or to fit the pipe better under the suspension arms.
That follows the logic that says you should made the bit after cat/resonator smaller. That is to preserve the velocity of gas and to help cylinder scavenging. When the gas cools down in the exhaust pipe it loses volume and hence velocity. You can prevent this by making the cooler end of pipe smaller :)
Hmmm... After writing that I think this could be very good (but bit complex)solution:
Exhaust manifold collector
2 1/2" pipe
free flow catalysator
2 1/4" pipe
resonator
2" pipe
muffler (with 2" output pipe)
That would allow the gases to cool down gradually while maintaining it's velocity. The last section is same diameter as stock exhaust but without the dent so it would still flow bit bettern than stock. And stock cat, resonator and muffler seems to be the biggest restrictions and they will be get rid of.
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Yay! Parts arrived today and they seem to be in good condition (to my untrained eye). And head has single valve springs so that is indication that it is indeed 6 mm valve head (I had no possibility to measure the stems yet) :D
After next week I will tear the head to parts and clean it. Then it's off to machining shop. I will post full list of modifications later :cool:
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I woudn't grind the valve guides back. deffernetly go for some after market ones. That is one thing you do not want to get wrong. A bent valve can do a lot of damage.
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I tend to agree after bit of reading. It's cheap ghetto tuning way to increase flow but shortened guides will wear out quickly and start leaking oil. Might as well cough up the extra €€€ and do it properly first time :)
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i would have thort it would be better to go for solid lifters, then you can run a much more wild cam.
steve
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MOTORCYCLE TIRES (http://www.motorcycle-tech.com/tires/motorcycle-tires)
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Solid lifter for teh win! BUT, they cost 43€ / piece at Dbilas, that is 688€ for 16 valves! :( :eek:
Another thing to consider is that Metric Mechanics state that stock OEM hydro lifters are ok up to 8000 RPM. That is the upper limit where I'm going to try rev the engine in any case. I am not very hopeful about stock bottom end holding up way past that... So in my case hydros are enough, no need to spend money on solids :)
Just started to tear down the head I received, so far so good. No signs of damage yet and valve seats and valve stems seems to be in good nick, yay! :D
I have to buy accurate scale for measuring masses of small valvetrain parts...
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MK1 golfs have them and they fit bmw engines, i think older audis also have them, i'm on the look out now for some
steve
________
Michigan Medical Marijuana Dispensary (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)
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kent and piper cams told me that with hyrdo lifters (which i was planing to keep) i could only have an off the shelf cam, maybe 12-18bhp gain, but with solids i can have what ever duration what ever lift ect ect and gain alot more bhp
steve
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HOT BOX VAPORIZERS (http://hotboxvaporizers.com)
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Call Web camshafts in California, the will grind a hydro lifter to any grind you want. Dont waste your time with "off the self" my 2 cents
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E30 intake manifold will not fit E36, the angle of engine seems to be different so the manifold will be higher and will stop hood from closing...
is this true? want to use the E30 intake on the e36.
The m43 intake was the same angel as the e30.:confused:
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kent and piper cams told me that with hyrdo lifters (which i was planing to keep) i could only have an off the shelf cam, maybe 12-18bhp gain, but with solids i can have what ever duration what ever lift ect ect and gain alot more bhp
I think that is true, hydro lifters do limit the duration of cams. Again there is one BUT in my case :)
I cannot use wild cams anyway because car must pass emission tests. I think regrinds can go up to 260-270 degrees which SHOULD be easy to keep street legal... There is not much reliable data out there regarding emissions and cams :(
Anyone know more about the VW solid lifters? Weight & part number would be nice :D
Head is now taken to pieces, so far so good. All exhaust valves and seasts show some degree of pitting on sealing surfaces but no obvious leaks. One exhaust valve has small hole about size of tip of a needle on outer edge of valve. It does not allow leak fom cylinder to port (yet) but I think it must be replaced.
Seems like my intake seats have been cut to 2 angles, 45 and something else. Can anyone confirm if this is done fom factory?
Also installed 12 v 17 Ah bike battery (battery 6,1 kg + DIY bracket 0,9 kg) to car today, weight saving over stock (which was 17,1 kg) 10,1 kg. Bit dissapointed about that, I was expecting more.
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is this true? want to use the E30 intake on the e36.
The m43 intake was the same angel as the e30.:confused:
This is what I have read from internet (so your mileage may vary...) and also heard firsthand from fellow E36 318is owner who tried the swap and said the hood would not close. Also, I have never heard from anyone who has completed the swap. But only way to be 100% sure is to try it out I guess.
How about using only the lower part of E30 intake manifold and constructing your own intake plenum that will surely fit?
(http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/b/p/6.png)
Just add box (CF, fiberglass, aluminum) with holes for throttle body and intake runners. You might also need to build extensions for intake runners if you want to have any low end torque :)
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Not much has happened lately... Cleaned the head and took some measurements so I can plan port/valve/valve seat modifications :)
Does anyone know if E30 double springs are straight fit to single spring E36 head? I would think valve pockets needs to be changed as well as spring plates?
I think I will order few sample E30 parts to see if I can get them to fit E36 head, not a large investment.
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Ooops! Just bought cheap E36 M3 S50B30 ITB's and injectors + rail from ebay. I made a small just for kicks bid and it won :eek:
I try to get E36 M3 airbox too, seems like it is possible to chop off one runner out of each end and then weld them shut. No idea if it will fit under the bonnet with M42...
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This is what I have read from internet (so your mileage may vary...) and also heard firsthand from fellow E36 318is owner who tried the swap and said the hood would not close. Also, I have never heard from anyone who has completed the swap. But only way to be 100% sure is to try it out I guess.
At this point I'm not sure if the E30 intake will fit with e36 hood.
Check this from Ludiagsm turbo thread:
(http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/1087/17062007326us8.th.jpg) (http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/1087/17062007326us8.jpg)
And I have a picture of another car with it and it's fitted... the only thing is that they doesn't have the insulator thing ounder the hood.
I really want to know if the e30 intake will fit on e36 with oem hood
bye.
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At this point I'm not sure if the E30 intake will fit with e36 hood.
And I have a picture of another car with it and it's fitted... the only thing is that they doesn't have the insulator thing ounder the hood.
I really want to know if the e30 intake will fit on e36 with oem hood
bye.
Hmmmm it sure is E30 intake on E36! :eek:
Ludi must know for sure at this point then. Did he need to modify the hood? If you remove insulation and the strenghtening structure inside you could gain maybe 2-4 cm extra clearance and that might be enough.
Or you could buy glassfiber hood and then easily put a small power bulge on it just like in E46 and E92 M3's :)
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Had an interesting chat today with fellow 318is Class II owner at local racetrack. He had just talked with race team that runs M42 on Ford Escort :)
They had used the engine on E30 318is endurance car before, that class has quite strict rules for modifications to keep the costs down. Camshaft was OEM reground to 267 degrees, OEM hydro lifters, OEM air meter etc and rev limiter (custom chip on stock ECU I think) was around 7300 if I recall correctly. Head was ported. Stock vibration damper. Power at the dyno was slightly over 190 hp.
Later on current Escort form, the engine has more agressive cams, around 35 mm intake valves (stock 33 mm), stock crankshaft and conrods with Wiseco pistons, 12+ compression ratio. ITB's I think. OEM hydro's modified to solids, adjustment by small pieces cut from valve stem. Rev limiter 9000 and power bit over 210 hp :eek:
I think I try to contact the race team, maybe they can give full list of modifications if I ask very nicely :)
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yeah try and find out more please, oooww 9000rpm sounds fun :D
steve
________
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Later on current Escort form, the engine has more agressive cams, around 35 mm intake valves (stock 33 mm), stock crankshaft and conrods with Wiseco pistons, 12+ compression ratio. ITB's I think. OEM hydro's modified to solids, adjustment by small pieces cut from valve stem. Rev limiter 9000 and power bit over 210 hp :eek:
more info about this?:confused:
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I found the homepage of the car/team:
http://www.prospeedracing.net/historia.htm
(http://www.prospeedracing.net/moottori4.JPG)
I remembered incorrectly, power is over 230 hp, jolly good show from 1,8 liter :p
They do offer stock and racing parts for M42, I have to find out if they sell those hydro/solid lifter conversions... Seems like they are using custom made pulleys, maybe vibration damper too?
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Quite a combo, Ford body, BMW engine, Toyota gearbox, Volvo rearend. Still interesting racecar.
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Seems like they are using custom made pulleys, maybe vibration damper too?
Terve.
They don't use vibration damper at all.
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Nice photos Freak and welcome aboard! Damn you and your press accreditation :)
Nothing much happening with the build, still waiting for the ITB's and learning stuff...
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Well, what do you know... Some parts arrived :)
- 4 x 345 cm3 injectors from Audi S4 with four nozzle holes, maybe better atomization of fuel than stock too? Should be good for 220-230 hp at 85% duty cycle and still have decent accuracy on idle on short pulses, important with emissions.
- 6 x E36 M3 240 cm3 (sounds awfully low? Flow value based on Bosch part number) injectors with rail.
- Assorted vacuum pipes and rail for E36 M3 ITB's
- OEM M3 ceramic gaskets between cylinderhead and E36 M3 ITB's
- 3 x twin ITB's from E36 M3 :cool:
- Etc.
Had a look on engine bay, might be better idea to build a custom airbox from glassfiber than trying to modify E36 M3 airbox to fit.
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To continue on the path of accumulating stuff while not getting anything useful done, I have bought BMW Motorsport manual for 95 season E36 2 liter super touring racecar. :cool:
It has 201 pages and it describes every nut and bolt that differs from stock car. S42 engine, engine management, suspension, seats, gage, cooling, bodywork...
(http://i4.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/b2/bb/aaa7_1.JPG)
Should be very interesting read!
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good thread! boyracer, where did the motorsport manual hail from?
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don't know whether you saw my setup boyracer, may be some food for thought?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/ts295/DSCN3009.jpg)
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don't know whether you saw my setup boyracer, may be some food for thought?
That looks very much something I would like to achieve! :)
The manual is from German ebay as usual. I need to take a break from that place, too easy to buy things...
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let me know if you see another one :)
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on the same boat here
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Tim, tell more about that MAF installation of Yours.
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that was my old megasquirt 1 extra setup with an M52 MAF. I got bored of MAF after a while and used MAP instead, and been happily using MAP ever ince. MAF is smooth and works very well, got a pretty good map on it, had trouble getting it to have correct AFRs under all inlet temps though, was a little strange. What exactly would you like to know?
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Few photos from stuff, all in stock condition at the moment.
Now I have the cylinderhead and ITB's so I can start planning the adapter plate between them. I have contact to CNC machining company trough my work and I think they could produce the aluminium plate adapter in reasonable price.
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I have contact to CNC machining company trough my work and I think they could produce the aluminium plate adapter in reasonable price.
hey, a --ahem-- group buy could reduce the cost to make that plate...
(hey man, great looking project!!)
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Received the 1995 season E36 Supertouring documentation few days ago, a real treasure trove!
It has everything that is different from roadgoing E36, I mean everything. All parts are shown on assembly diagrams, sometimes even three sided engineering drawings. Complete parts lists with descriptions. Tightening torques and even temperatures to which you should heat up the cylinderhead when fitting valve guides and valve seats! All clearances between parts. How much pistons can vary in weight (2 grams). Intake port dimensions. Btw there is no vibration damper fitted :)
I think I will find out how much it would cost to get hydro -> mehcanical conversion parts made for stock tappets, need to open one tappet first.
Also ordered one set of E30 M42 dual valve springs and lower and upper valve plates to see if they fit E36 M42 and how much stiffer that setup is.
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Received the 1995 season E36 Supertouring documentation few days ago, a real treasure trove!
Hello
You will share this treasure? Or what can we obtain it?
Thanks
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Sooo...where might we be able to get copies of this documentation?
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Yes, information for all! Google gives me no relevant results:confused:
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I am not sure what is the status of the documents in copyright wise. I think they are owned by BMW Motorsport International, not sure. But I think I can take photos of some interesting pages and share them here without consequences.
Most interesting stuff for E30 folks must be the engine so I will concentrate on that. When I have time I will take photos of the pages and set up a new thread somewhere on this forum :)
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possible intake?
http://www.dbilas-dynamic.de/dbilas_eng/index.htm
german tuner mainly specified to air intakes
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I think I will build airbox from glassfiber when the time comes...
In the meantime, just got 3.45 LSD from ebay to replace my open diff :cool:
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Some news at last!
Got E30 M42 double springs and spring plates to see if they fit E36 M42. I would say they will fit :)
This seems to be workable combination:
Outer spring lower plate - E30 M42
Inner spring lower plate - E30 M42
Upper spring plate - E36 M42
Inner spring - E30 M42
Outer spring - E36 M42 (or E30, read on...)
I will try to measure valve spring rates for all springs I hve right now. Then I can calculate valve open and seat pressures with different combinations.
I thought E30 outer spring and E36 spring would be identical but not so... E30 spring is slightly taller and softer. So E36 spring and E30 inner spring should provide quite much stiffer setup that also resist spring surge better.
Catcams site listed M42 (no idea which version) to have seat pressure of around 40 kg and open pressure of 90 kg. Let's see if my spring rate measurements tomorrow agree with that.
I also sacrificed one hydraulic lifter (sorry buddy...) from my spare head to see what is the structure of the lifter and how easily it could be converted to solid operation.
First of all, it was quite impossible to remove the hydraulic core from the lifter by using pliers. Next we (me + my brother) tried compressed air fed trough the oil hole but no joy. Then we tried drilling a hole to hydraulic core but it is hardened tool steel ie. very very hard.
As last resort we put the poor little lifter to a vice... It took only few turns to hear sound of steel breaking up, it was almost like glass. Then we could see what was inside the lifter.
There is a small locking ring holding the hydraulic core in lifter. It seems possible to force the core out of lifter by using lots of hydraulic pressure fed trough the oil feed hole. Weight saving from replacing hydraulic core with solid seems almost useless in itself but I soon realized that the true weight saving comes from not having oil inside the lifter :eek:
I will have to measure (or calculate) the volume and hence mass oil causes to be added to the lifter but I can quite safely say it is significant. If empty lifter is around 70 grams, oil could add another 20-30 grams. But as soon as I know, I will let you know.
And when I know the mass reduction made possible by solid lifter conversion, I can calculate what kind of valve spring rates I need to be able to rev as high as I want :)
Hopefully more lifter and spring stuff tomorrow with few photos and measurement results :o
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updates?
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....and pics of that S42 stuff ? ;)
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Well, lots of reading an planning going on regarding the engine mods. Also received the 3.45 LSD which I opened yesterday to verify that it is really LSD, which it was. Too bad one of the two support arms of diff back cover was damaged during shipping and I need to find a replacement. I hope to install the LSD around christmas to see if it makes any difference in ice and snow.
Not quite sure what I want to do first. I hope to compete in our BMW clubs sprint race in which we have 3 classes for road cars. My car is in lowest power/weight category right now and I can increase power to around 160 hp until I'm forced to upper class with E36 325i's etc. To be at the upper limit of that class I need around 190 hp.
So basically I should choose to do few easy mods like chip and ITB's to reach 160 hp or bite the bullet and do everything at the same time.
I tried to attach photos of spring rate measurements sometime ago to my post but it did not work for some reason (size and format should have been ok) so I haven't tried to attach photos of S42 stuff either. Maybe I will try again in hope that it was just a temporary glitch :)
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1st update for 2008!
Stock 3.45 LSD has been installed:
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20034.jpg)
And ITB setup work has started:
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20013.jpg)
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20021.jpg)
And also the adapter:
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20015.jpg)
By the way, tim_s was right about something :eek: those ITB's are indeed 50 mm in diameter, not 48 mm as I remembered. Good thing I did not bet with him!
Adapter is made from 2 x 10 mm aluminum plates bolted together. Intake port holes were done mostly by 8 mm drill, we tried smaller and larger but they were slower. Holes have now been filed smoother and once I can put the adapter to head and ITB's I will sand the ports to correct shape. Thin gasket made by gasket paper goes between the plates, I think I use original M42 gasket between adapter plate and cylinder head and original S50 O rings between adapter and ITB's.
Fuel rail and injector control rail come from M42, they seem to be perfect fit as they are. I however need to remove two supports from fuel rail, they block atleast one vacuum rail hole.
Vacuum/idle rail comes from S50. It needs to be cut from two places (to get rid of useless middle ITB for M42) and then welded together again. Also air feed pipe needs to be cut out from the discarded part and put back in shortened rail.
I think airbox will be made out of glassfiber, I got a book about competition car composites as christmas present and I'm studying it now. Then I need some intake runners with bellmouths too, possible made from glassfiber too.
I don't think I will use stock (or even the larger E36 M3) filter housing due space restrictions. One idea is to put a largest possible BMW OEM panel filter (I'm not too keen on cone filters...) in front part of airbox in similar manner it has been done on E46 M3 CSL. That solution provides large surface area filter for adequate airflow but might slightly affect airbox tuning. Also, air metering thingamajik (whatever it will be in the end) needs to be BEFORE filter, perhaps causing problems with dust etc.
M40 flywheel and spare set of M42 cams are ready to be sent for machining, hope to get them done soon :)
Much pondering going on what needs to be done before track season starts, there's 3,5 months to go in Finland. As said earlier, I need to think about the power I'm going to get due sprint class limits. It's either around 155 hp or 195 hp I need to be with current weight.
Almost 155 hp can be had with a good chip and 98 octane fuel alone, I'm sure ITB's alone on top of that would bumb me out of snail pace class... Then I would be in the same class as E36 325' and 328's!
Then the question is how much I could get with ITB's, solid lifter conversion, 260-270 degree and 10,5 mm lift regrind cams and a chip that is designed to work with 256 degree Shrick cams.
Shrick cams + chip is often quoted to give about 160-165 hp but that is well short from 195 hp goal. ITB's might give some help as would higher rev limit due solid lifters but I am not sure how much.
Interesting things to ponder :)
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And oh yes, I found the reason for sometimes quite violent shaking of engine/car when driving slowly and letting the clutch slip:
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20044.jpg)
One of the two engine mounts had been completely broken up! Engine was lying some 3-4 cm to the right. No wonder 3rd gear sometimes popped out while braking or what caused the juddering noise while cornering hard to the left...
New mounting parts for engine and transmission have been ordered already :)
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Hi Boyracer, are they any updates on your project. I am about to take a slightly different way with the M47 crank, but the headwork should be something like yours. Can you post pictures of the changes in the head(before, after pic if available) please!
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Well, some progress has been made... ITB's have been connected to the cylinderhead with adapter for the first time but bit more work is needed to fit new bolts. Then I will shape the ITB and cylinder head ports to match the adapter.
Also bought clutch and pressureplate, need those before I sent the flywheel to be lightened, the whole assembly needs to be balanced together to get best results.
I also bought some air powered grinding tools so in theory I could perform some of the porting work by myself, removing the casting imperfections and perhaps removing avlve guide bosses. Valve seasts still require professionals.
And finally, the engine mounting rubbers were swapped, both were completely ripped apart! Engine was only held in place with coolant etc pipes and two rubber mountings at the back of the gearbox. Car feels now much more quieter :)
I did also meet local guy who has two 318is Class II cars. One is daily transport and the another seems to be transformed to endurance racing car. There are plenty of work on the engine that is common for my project and his racing car so I might benefit from his knowledge of local machine shops etc which I don't have.
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Small update...
Bought one black Sparco Corsa seat, I hopefully get it tomorrow but installation is few months away when track season opens here, until that car is driven everyday. I think I will take both front seats away and build mounts for drivers side to mount the seat. That should save some 40 kg of weight, always a good thing :)
(http://www.rallyshop.pl/galerie/fotel-sparco-corsa_221.jpg)
I also have 10 m2 roll of of glassfiber fabric arriving soon as well as 3 m2 of carbonfiber fabric. Those are meant for airbox but I think there is enough to manufacture something else too. Sunroof insert or similar.
Oh, and new set of 225/50-16 tires for lightweight track wheels are orderer too. Cannot wait to try out how much better they feel on track compared to those hideously heavy 17" wheels!
Contacted the ebay chip seller about my car to ask what info he needs to produce me a chip. Turns out I'm lucky, my car is produced before 09/94 and he can burn me a chip just like that. Cars produced after that date need their ECU's sent to him so he can create custom chip. I just have to confirm what code the ECU module has and that means I have to remove retrofit A/C units heat exhanceg to get my hand on the module...
He promises around 154 hp at 7100 rpm from stock E36 M42 which is 10% increase with 98 octane fuel (not sure how much that it in US). I will ask him to set the rev limiter to 7500. Our local BMW club is going to have a dynoday or two this spring so I hope to have some hard evidence on this.
It might be that the ITB installation is postponed to mid summer when I can use M3 as everyday car.
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this is just simply amazing! i would like to get around the 170-190HP mark NA I think that'd be effing awesome!
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Yay, got the seat! Sexey! :cool:
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2008/001.JPG)
Installed front powerflex bushings to control arm and roll bar. Steering feels bit more communicative, small things happening under the front tires are bit easier to feel.
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2008/003.JPG)
And removed retrofit A/C to see how difficult it would be and to find out exact model of ECU my car has.
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2008/002.JPG)
Turns out the A/C will be quite easy to remove once the system is emptied, no heat exhanger inside dash. I estimate weight saving to be around 10-15 kg from this. I estimate empty weight of the car will be around 1150 kg at the beginning of the track season.
Chip maker replied with info and prices so I ordered two chips from him:
1. Stock engine 98 octane fuel 7500 rpm limit - 155 hp
2. Shrick camshafts 98 octane fuel 7500 rpm limit - 170 hp
Combined cost with shipping is around 150€.
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Chips were shipped to me yesterday and they should arrive in few days :)
I did buy something interesting today that I had no plans for... Used Wössner forged pistons for S50B30 engine! Price for 6 pistons were well below of set of 4 similar pistons for M42 so I just had to take the opportunity. I can hopefully use 4 on my engine and have 2 as spare :)
(http://www.modificars.fi/Tuotekuvat/Wossner/piston.jpg)
As far as I know at the moment, those should be quite compatible with M42. Bit of data I have gathered so far (S50B30 / stock M42):
Bore: 86 / 84 mm
Wrist pin: 21 x 59 / 22 x 55 mm
Comp height: 31.6 / 31.6 mm
Compression: [COLOR=Red]12.6[/COLOR] / 10.5
M42 when bored to 86 mm has engine displacement around 1882 cm3. Modest increase itself but benefit I'm interested lies elsewhere...
- Compression ratio should give 2-4% increase in torque and efficiency. Guy who used these pistons on his S50B30 said he had no problems with compression rate as high as that and I see no reason why M42 should be any worse.
- Weight! From Wössner's site:
Piston: 306 g
Wrist pin: 85 g
Rings: 20 g (estimate)
Total: 411 g
Stock M42 piston with rings from ETK: 510 g
Not sure if that includes wrist pin which is around 100 g. So forged piston is atleast 25% lighter, maybe even more. That means less losses and possibility to rev higher because con rod has less mass to control.
- Durability. Because they are forged, they will take lots more revs than standard cast pistons.
- Large valve cutouts. Wössner pistons have room for S50 valves that are larger then stock M42 valves so if I go to oversize valves I do not need to worry about clearances :)
Basically, with these pistons it should be possible to rev far higher then with cast pistons. I really am not an expert but region of 8500 rmp should be well within reach.
There are few problems:
- M42 con rods have 22 mm wrist pin, these pistons have 21 mm wrist pin. I think this can be fixed by changing the bush in con rod small end (anyone know for sure?)
- Bore. I have to rebore the M42 block...
- Balancing the crankshaft. Since pistons etc are different weight, bottom end should be carefully balanced to allow high revs.
I have been looking for forged pistons for some time but this opportunity caucht me by suprise so I have not definite plans or firm knowledge about this area... Lots of things to learn in near future! :cool:
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The CR won't be 12.5 or whatever in an m42. If they're anything like the pic you've shown it will lower, not raise the CR in an m42.
over 12:1 CR is not going to be usable on pump gas (not that yours will have that high a CR anyway).
pick components to get to your desired CR and dynamic CR, not the other way around
You'll likely weaken the engine more by using oversize SE bushes than the benefit of forged pistons.
what piston-bore clearance will you run? What rings do the pistons come with? Is this supposed to be a road engine that you're building, or solely a race engine?
skimping here is a false economy. You need some pistons designed for your application.
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The CR won't be 12.5 or whatever in an m42. If they're anything like the pic you've shown it will lower, not raise the CR in an m42.
over 12:1 CR is not going to be usable on pump gas (not that yours will have that high a CR anyway).
It is entirely possible that it is not as high as 12.6 which is just as well, this is not an racing engine and I do not need last percentage of power.
Engine those pistons are coming from ran fine with 12.6 compression (essentially a stock S50 engine apart from engine management and pistons) with 98 octane pump fuel. Max ignition advance was around 37-40 degrees but that engine had 300 degree cams that lowered dynamic CR somewhat.
Here is pic of one of the exact pistons I should receive. The other one is stock S50B30 piston for comparison.
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2008/woessner.jpg)
I think it would be pretty difficult to get lower CR then 10.5 with those if compression height is identical to stock M42 piston.
pick components to get to your desired CR and dynamic CR, not the other way around
My desired CR is in bracket of 11:1 and 12.5:1. Planned cams are quite mild and with little overlap so static and dynamic CR's are close.
You'll likely weaken the engine more by using oversize SE bushes than the benefit of forged pistons.
Actually they are UNDERSIZE bushes, stock pin is 22 mm and those pistons come with 21 mm pins. So nothing is weakened by removing material, bushing is just made bit thicker to get the hole diameter smaller.
what piston-bore clearance will you run? What rings do the pistons come with? Is this supposed to be a road engine that you're building, or solely a race engine?
Clearance will be whatever manufacturer recommends and piston rings will come directly from them too (only 2 rings instead of stock 3 per piston). M42 and S50 iron blocks are quite close relatives so I am quite optimistic instructions for S50 are close for M42 too.
This was going to be road/track car but I am now seriously considering leaving this car for track use only and buying 3rd BMW for winter use. I have some perversion for E36 316i coupe :D
skimping here is a false economy. You need some pistons designed for your application.
Cheapest new forged pistons I have seen in europe for M42 are 750€ / set. From US they could be obtained bit cheaper but not much. This set I got for far less then half of that 750€ and as a bonus I have 2 spare pistons.
So it is not an large investment and if they do not fit my application for some reason I can sell them forward. Or my friends will get nice ashtrays for christmas presents :D
We had difference of opinion in the past but I appreciate your input, it is good to have someone to challenge your plans :)
Oh yeah, I went to buy digital kichen scale with 1 g accuracy so I can measure things more accurately instead of relying manufacturer information...
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basically, you're wrong.
I think it would be pretty difficult to get lower CR then 10.5 with those if compression height is identical to stock M42 piston.
Measure them. They look like they'll give a respectable CR, but there's lots of dish in those valve reliefs, and sharp edges on those unnecesarily large valve reliefs will mean hot spots and more chance of det. they're not a great choice for your car.
your car has a 10:1 compression ratio, not 10.5:1. I've told you this before. Compression height between the pistons is not identical, it's marginally shorter.
My desired CR is in bracket of 11:1 and 12.5:1. Planned cams are quite mild and with little overlap so static and dynamic CR's are close.
those figures are miles apart
Actually they are UNDERSIZE bushes, stock pin is 22 mm and those pistons come with 21 mm pins. So nothing is weakened by removing material, bushing is just made bit thicker to get the hole diameter smaller.
no. the bushes are OVERSIZE. Please learn before contradicting me, you've done this several times before and it's insulting.
as per my original post, just buy the right pistons for the job. Sure pistons that actually fit your car will cost you 375euro extra, what will a rebuild when the small end bushes give out cost you?
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basically, you're wrong.
Well I'm glad that was cleared out :p
Measure them. They look like they'll give a respectable CR, but there's lots of dish in those valve reliefs, and sharp edges on those unnecesarily large valve reliefs will mean hot spots and more chance of det. they're not a great choice for your car.
Wössner says on their documentation that piston dome has volume of +5 cm3. Stock piston has depression on center of piston so I would imagine it has negative volume.
I don't think valve reliefs are unneccessarily large, they are very useful for oversize intake valve conversion, 35 mm (M42 33 mm stock) should give no trouble at all since it is very close to OEM S50 size which those pistons surely are able to accomodate. On previous engine those reliefs were more than enough for valve lift of 12,7 mm!
Those are forged pistons as said and they are more dense material than cast pistons so they will generally run cooler. Only really thin and sharp corners are on edge of piston near valve reliefs but that is not a problem because heat is transferred to bore walls from that area. Wössner pistons have won BMW WTCC and ETCC championships so I am quite optimistic that they know what they are doing :)
your car has a 10:1 compression ratio, not 10.5:1. I've told you this before. Compression height between the pistons is not identical, it's marginally shorter.
You are actually right, I checked from BMW papers this morning. It's just that most of the internet sources say E36 M42 has CR of 10.5 :eek:
I think lower stock CR of 10:1 and slightly lower compressiong height of forged piston is actually better for me. That means when fitted the static CR will be closer to 12:1 then 12.6:1 which should suit cams with little overlap better because they do not lower dynamic CR that much.
But to be sure I have to measure the combustion chamber/piston dome volumes as you said, too much guesswork right now.
those figures are miles apart
But does it really matter as long as it works? I am not building an competition engine where every last % counts. I want it to be higher then stock and I do not want it to be too high to cause eccessive retardation of ignition. That's why the bracket is so large.
Compression ratio can be adjusted by machining either piston dome or cylinder head or fitting thicker/thinner head gasket. So there is possibility to adjust it when the design progresses.
no. the bushes are OVERSIZE. Please learn before contradicting me, you've done this several times before and it's insulting.
If you bore engine to have larger bore diameter is it undersize or oversize? It is oversize.
On this case, inside bore of bushing is made to have smaller diameter. Logically it should be undersize. Or is there some different logic that applies to bushings?
If you feel insulted, then stop reading my posts, or atleast replying to them. Nobody is forcing you...
as per my original post, just buy the right pistons for the job. Sure pistons that actually fit your car will cost you 375euro extra, what will a rebuild when the small end bushes give out cost you?
Actually 750€ pistons are 450€ more expensive then what I paid from mine. Plus I have 2 as spares.
To fit M42 forged piston I would have to most propably hone the bores anyway so no savings there. With these pistons I atleast get bit of extra displacement (5% or such) and lots of room for larger valves.
Stock M42 con rod small end bush costs 4€. It is simple interference fit to con rod so old one is pressed out and new one is pressed in. Then you have to hone it to have correct clearance with wrist pin. Work should not cost much because it is standard procedure.
Only question mark is to find/manufacture suitable bronze bush to reduce the wrist pin diameter by 1 mm compared to stock :)
I had the choice of having these forged pistons or having no forged pistons at all. The real question here is, are these better then stock cast pistons. And I think they surely are.
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you will be using an undersize pin and an oversize bronze bush. the bush is oversized for the extremely illogical reason that it's bigger. the same applies to everything, regrind your crank -> put in oversize shells. no special logic required, just common sense.
And nothing is weakened? Since when has phosy bronze been as strong as forged steel?
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you will be using an undersize pin and an oversize bronze bush. the bush is oversized for the extremely illogical reason that it's bigger. the same applies to everything, regrind your crank -> put in oversize shells. no special logic required, just common sense.
Hmmm. Put in that way (oversize bearing shells), it sounds plausible :)
And nothing is weakened? Since when has phosy bronze been as strong as forged steel?
I think the real question is how much weaker is 0,5 mm thicker bronze bush? It might be bit softer but it's difficult to see how it could fail with catastrophic results. Pin/small end clearance could increase slightly over time but that is not a huge worry compared to snapped con rod.
I did already find out today that over/undersize bushings (well, one with smaller inside diameter anyways) are common practice and re-bushing small ends is cheap and standard procedure.
Next worry is the head gasket. I suppose M42 gasket is not ok for 86 mm bore... Where one can find gasket that is ok?
The two chips I had ordered arrived today, yay! I try to get stock engine baseline rolling road results next week before I fit first chip :)
EDIT: Measured stock piston, rings and wrist pin weight today. Those forged pistons with rings and pin are 15% lighter compared to them.
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M44 gasket is 1mm larger than M42
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M44 gasket is 1mm larger than M42
Do you know if it is direct swap for M42 gasket?
Largest M44 oversize piston is 85.485 mm (mine will be bit less than 86 mm) and I think there is only one OEM head gasket available which then should also be able to accommodate those oversize pistons also.
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Solved that one! Cometic makes M42 gasket with 86 mm bore :)
86mm MLS .060" C4349-060 1 $141.70
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Direct fit. We have it on an M42 block bored to 2nd oversize M44 pistons. Fits just fine.
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Guess which one is stock?
Forged pistons have 32 mm exhaust and 37 mm intake valve cutouts, they are also significantly deeper than on stock piston. No worry about valves hitting pistons with higher lift cams.
They are also 18.5% lighter and offer 5% larger displacement. Their resistance to metal fatigue is far superior.
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/07/52/87/1075287_large.jpg)
Cleaned up:
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/07/52/90/1075290_large.jpg)
Chips. Claims are +15 hp on stock engine and +30 with mild cams. We shall see how it goes...
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/07/52/88/1075288_large.jpg)
I already had spare set of E36 M42 con rods that I am now going to lighten, polish and shot peen.
Now I'm looking for m42 engine block, or better yet, complete engine bottom end for boring. How the heck did this happen? :eek:
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Chip for stock engine is in, air con is out :D
I haven't weighted air con parts taken out yet but 10 kg seems reasonable guess. I had to retain the retrofit air con heat exhanger/blower (2-3 kg) because stock blower has been removed. I will get original and functioning blower later for fitting.
Fitted chip also, quite easy job. Engine started nicely, rock steady idle instantly. I took the car for short testdrive and I must say I was suprised. Engine does seem to respond better to throttle and there seems to be more grunt on middle revs. What I am certain about is that engine does sound more aggressive and it does rev atleast to 7000. Brother went to testdrive too and he noticed same things so I it is not only my imagination.
Chip is for 98 octane fuel and I still have half a tank of 95 so I will not really push it until refill because of possible knock.
I tried to get time for dyno last week but nearest place that does them arranges certain days for large number of cars to be tested at the same time and none of those days were before easter. So I will have to test stock chip at the same time as current tuning chip.
Tomorrow I will manufacture frame for race seat. And by incredible chance, there is one E36 M42 engine for sale just 30 km away with broken timing chain (bent intake valves). I think I need to buy it :)
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Ok, short update.
I have driven the car with chip for about 1000 km and I have now better idea of it's effects. Consumption on my 400 km "test track" is practically identical, only 2% increase which can be atributed to set of wheels on trunk or bit heavier use of throttle on motorway. So far so good then.
Power/torque is definitely up on middle revs. I can actually use 4th gear to pass things on the road. Overall car feels bit perkier and willing to rev.
Air con removal netted 15.5 kg weight saving, maybe some 4-5 kg more after I get rid of heat exhanger/blower.
Bought the E36 M42 bottom end with clutch, starter and alternator and started taking it apart this weekend. Interestingly it had solid flywheel, I was under impression that in E36 M42 always had dual mass flywheel.
Took two sets of M42 cams for grinding. 220€ / set to get them similar to Shrick cams, only downside is that it will take about two months before they are ready due queue on machnist shop :(
Major rethink on my plans. There will be two engines:
Engine 1. (current one on car)
- Shrick copy cams
- Motronic chip optimized for Shrick cams
- lightened flywheel
- 2.5" custom made exhaust + cat
Should be around 165-170 hp when ready. This engine will be put on storage once engine 2 is ready.
Engine 2. (one I am going to build based on acquired bottom end)
- Wössner forged pistons (comp ratio around 12.5)
- bored block to 86 mm
- well balanced crankshaft
- ebay CNC con rods/stock con rods with lightening and shot peening
- S50B30 ITB's
- Mildly modified cylinder head with possible 35 mm intake valves
- Glass/carbon fiber airbox
- Solid valve lifter/follower conversion
- bit stiffer valve springs
- Dbilas, Cat Cams etc cams around 300 degrees duration
- VEMS or Megasquirt engine management
- lightened flywheel from engine 1.
- 2.5" custom made exhaust + cat from engine 1.
Difficult to say about power... Engine should be ok to rev as high as 8500, perhaps even 9000. Honda has similar sized engines and they produce 180 to 240 hp on road trim, altough they have VTEC but on the other hand they do not have ITB's.
I already have most of the parts required by engine 2. but I think it will be one year before it is running...
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If only S50B30 euro pistons were easier to come by in the U.S. :(
For inspiration you might want to check out Gizmo's build. He did some similar stuff as you with the M3 pistons.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433471&highlight=m42+buildup
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Chips. Claims are +15 hp on stock engine and +30 with mild cams. We shall see how it goes...
Somehow those chips (handwriting) looks familiar... I have same manufacturers chips installed into my daily driver (318I / M40).
He promised 12hp over stock 113. I have dynoed car and i got 123hp. I suppose my engines 378.000km's have something to do it :)
I have also his E30 320IS chips and they work great as well.
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Today I bought most parts for 2.5" exhaust and end part of exhaust manifold. Still need some 45 degree turns and well flowing cat. There will be middle resonator and hopefully quiet muffler, I don't like noisy exhausts. All parts are in mild steel, I hope it is easier to work with and does not crack as easily as stainless.
Resonator is model with straight pipe with holes going trough the case which is hopefully filled with nosie absorbing material while muffler is bit more elaborate (there are three chambers and pipes make a few turns) and hopefully more effective.
In his book Graham Bell says 2.5" exhaust is suitable for 180-220 hp which is bit more than I am going to get with this engine (170ish) but it should not be too bad because of mild cams which do not have much overlap. Next engine hopefully will be in upper part of that range and I do not want to build new exhaust for it.
Went to dyno too week ago and entered data to excel:
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/28/29/1102829_large.jpg)
(stock data is from BMW papers, not from this exact engine or dyno)
Received one M62B44 intake valve and it should be possible to use it on M42 after bit of modifications. Valve is 2,5 mm shorter than M42 valve but it is 35 mm vs 33 mm in diameter, woot!
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what about s65 (E92 M3) intake valves? 5mm valve steam 35,7mm diameter and they are 15€ from the dealer... dunno about lenght...
http://bmwfans.info/original/E92/Cou/M3-S65/ECE/L/N/2007/06/mg-11/ill-11_4124/
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Yeah, I think I will order one for measurements since they are cheap. Not sure how difficult it would be to find 5 mm valve guides that fir M42 head, BMW does not seem to sell valve guides...
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these goals are very reasonable and are actually what i hope to accomplish with my m42 as well. other than the option of the DASC, i wanted to reach the 200hp as mark as well. your setup sounds similar to what i would be running. ill do a quick run down.
engine
stock bottom end
rebuilt head with cams and proper valvetrain
completely rebuilt timing equipment
a maf setup with MS or some sort of tuning
drivetrain
8lb. m20 ltwt flywheel
new stock m20 clutch if not a stage 1
med. case 4.10 LSD
z4 3.0 ssk
uuc dssr
exhaust
custom 2.5" from centerpiece back (after 2-1)
electronic exhaust cutout before cat which will be replaced with a resonator
i believe our best bet would be tuning. bmws are known for being well underrated. if you can unleash its true potential by fine tuning the computer, 200hp is easily achievable.
if the bottom end is tinkered with, the whole process will be much easier.
i need help!!!! maybe you can help me,
first off i own a 318is e30. I found out the cylinder head was cracked and im finding it very difficult to replace it here in ireland.
so, as a last resort, im now thinking off dropping a 325i e30 engine in it and i was wondering what else i would need to make sure the engine runs right. wat else do i need?
example;
ecu
gearbox
brakes
???????
thanks
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i need help!!!! maybe you can help me,
first off i own a 318is e30. I found out the cylinder head was cracked and im finding it very difficult to replace it here in ireland.
so, as a last resort, im now thinking off dropping a 325i e30 engine in it and i was wondering what else i would need to make sure the engine runs right. wat else do i need?
example;
ecu
gearbox
brakes
???????
thanks
This is probably the wrong thread for that question. Do a search, there is a lot of information out there. If my neighbor has a 318 and a 325 sitting side by side, he can do an engine swap in a weekend, so it's not too bad.
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Just picked up my reground camshafts. Machinist told me that they are very close to Shrick specs, maybe with a 0.05 - 0,1 mm more lift and few degrees more duration, depending on how Shrick measures their parameters.
Aaaaaahhhh black beauties...
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/41/50/1104150_large.jpg)
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/41/49/1104149_large.jpg)
Now I have the cams (I will sell the extra pair) and I have the chip, just need to find time and place to perform the swap and then I'm off to dyno again :)
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Were they done in Finland? If so, what company did you use?
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Yes, they were done in company called Kylmäkosken Erikoismoottori and I luckily live some 50 km away from there so I could just go there and have a chat with the guy. He also recommended a a good place for cylinderhead work and that is only 5 km away from my home :)
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Dublinboy-
Welcome, but your first post really should have been more relevant to the thread. I know your only looking for help but its much easier just to start your own thread.
If your looking for a replacement engine, or a new m42/44 (which will be much better in my opinion) then check out http://www.traynors.co.uk. They are the largest second hand parts dealer in Ireland and the UK. They deliver parts to the coachmans inn near the airport, every friday and wednesday, very early in the morning.
They will sort you out with a replacement engine, or if your doing a swap, they will tell you what you need. They are honest and wont try sell you something that you dont need.
If you need any more help just start a new thread in this section, for the sake of convenience and respect to Boyracer :)
Boyracer
Sorry if you covered it already but what are the specs of the cam?
Did the company provide you with a profile sheet?
and how much would you be willing to sell the spare set for?
BTW: Your project is progessing very nicely :)
I wish i could say the same for my own, but at the moment im just fixing problems and planning, rather than modifying. The current problem is a hole in the exhaust :(
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Sorry if you covered it already but what are the specs of the cam?
Did the company provide you with a profile sheet?
and how much would you be willing to sell the spare set for?
BTW: Your project is progessing very nicely :)
I wish i could say the same for my own, but at the moment im just fixing problems and planning, rather than modifying. The current problem is a hole in the exhaust :(
Look here:
http://www.avl-schrick.com/dat/MK/AVL_SCHRICK_2008_E.pdf
There's only one cam for M42 on that list. In short it is 256 degrees and 10,4 mm of lift. Sorry no profile sheet from the grinder, pretty much all I can do is to check the lift...
Well my project has been going on for atleast a year so it was a high time that something started to happen. And you need to study a bit if you are not too familiar with the engines like me :)
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(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/41/50/1104150_large.jpg)
(http://galleria.city.fi/kuvagalleria/kuvat/01/10/41/49/1104149_large.jpg)
Mmm... Sexy... (http://smiliesftw.com/x/drool_1.gif) (http://smiliesftw.com)
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256*? i assume these cams are for engine one yes?
256* wouldnt be enough to lower your dynamic compression on engine two....i guess that will be 300* duration territory :)
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Yes they are only for engine 1. The reason why they are that mild is that I already have custom chip made for identical and common Shrick cams so if they would differ too much from Shricks then chip would not operate in optimal way. Also, you cannot reduce camshafts base circle much over 1 mm or hydraulic lifters can run out of adjustment range.
I already have one extra stock condition pair waiting in the shelf for engine 2. On that engine I will have solid lifters so reducing camshaft base circle is not a problem because I can manually adjust the lash away. Camshaft grinding guy said that there is lots of material on M42 to be removed so quite high lifts are achievable, I suspect 12 mm is not a problem.
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Solved that one! Cometic makes M42 gasket with 86 mm bore :)
86mm MLS .060" C4349-060 1 $141.70
Hi
For 86 mm S42 engine there is a set of gasket at BMW 11 00 1 416 165, or just the head gasket 11 12 1 415 808 is quite expensive but top.
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Nevermind this post, I didn't think M42 camshafts were hollow. Thanks strypt!
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M42 camshafts are hollow.
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Reground camshafts and their chip are in :eek:
Took me some 6 hours to complete the operation. This was my first time I have opened anything on engine so next time should be much faster.
Car initially hunted quite badly on idle, rpm's varied from 1500 to 500 but it did not stall. After few minutes idle stabilized to 750-800. Idle quality is bit rougher, engine shakes bit more. There is also audible whine which follows engine revs coming from somewhere under the intake manifold or alternator area.
Engine stalled once when I was on "installation lap", I was climbing up small hill at steady pace when engine just died. After short check to see there was nothing fatal going on I restarted the engine and after few tries it was ok. Drove back to garage but since I had to start my 250 mile drive back to home I could not do much but hope for the best. Drive home went well, not problems at all.
As performance and driveability, there is certainly more poke on mid and high revs and the engine intake noise is more raw. Very low revs might have lost a bit of power and it is bit easier to stall the engine, should not be a problem when I get used to it and perhaps ECU is still adapting. I would say this upgrade had about the same effect on butt dyno as did previous chip only (that was +15 hp). I will take the car to same dyno as I went after installing chip. Chip manufacturer says this cam and chip combo should be good for 170 hp.
So far so good then. My only concern is the whining noise. It does not sound like metal grinding against metal and neither it sounds like chain rattle. It is pretty much something you would expect from alternator but we checked it and it was charging just fine. I have to change the belt anyways soon so I could try running the engine without alternator etc for a moment to see if it comes from there.
Stock camshafts. Notice shiny cam lobes
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/2564530815_b078792bd2_b.jpg)
Reground camshafts
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2564529551_c3f79f719f_b.jpg)
From this heap I try to build up 2.5" exhaust... Thingie standing up is 200 CPI metal catalysator which should flow very well
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2564530181_0485a26783_b.jpg)
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The whining noise sounds like the chain tensioner holding the chain too tight. I had this problem on a M42 I just built. Quite annoying. The tensioner was brand new. So we threw in another brand new one and it quited down. Its still there, but quieter now.
You can find my post in the engine and drivetrain forum. Video is included.
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Yeah I did find your thread right after I wrote that message and indeed it sounds like same issue. I would be quite relieved if it is only chain tensioner and nothing really serious.
I will investigate this at weekend, if not earlier :)
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Congrats on getting the new cams and chipped installed :)
Any chance that we could get a video of it running? because i would love to hear the new induction noise.
Good luck with your project
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Great work! See you on track ;)
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Nice!
Are you ever going to get an actual dyno graph or just take the word of the chip tuner for now?
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Nice!
Are you ever going to get an actual dyno graph or just take the word of the chip tuner for now?
Huh?
My car has been on dyno with only chip about a month ago:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3238/2479989515_5656d1e8b2_b.jpg)
And for chip and cams I stated:
I will take the car to same dyno as I went after installing chip.
So the answer is yes, I will get the actual dyno graph.
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Btw, what was the result before you installed that chip?
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No idea unfortunately... I tried to reserve time for that particular dyno a week before I installed the chip but they never called me back. Now it's impossible to get stock engine baseline since cams are in.
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could i get the name of the guy who made your chips on ebay?
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Huh?
And for chip and cams I stated:
I will take the car to same dyno as I went after installing chip.
So the answer is yes, I will get the actual dyno graph.
Oops, I guess I missed that part, sorry. :o I was talking about a graph after the new camshafts.
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Yay! Got the whine fixered, it was the chain tensioner. I just removed it, assembled it again by following Bentley's instructions and put it back. Initially it rattled quite badly but I think it needs few minutes above 3000 rpm to get enough oil pressure that eventually will put the tensioner to correct tension.
After short drive engine was as quiet as before the cam swap. I also found out that this motherfecker of chip does actually have limiter at dizzy height of 7500. Now I dared to give the engine bit stick and it honestly felt totally different to what it was as stock. It revs much eagerly and there is no feeling that it is running out of breath in high revs.
I'm glad I installed LSD during winter, it might come handy at track now :cool:
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Haha, cool, sounds like a lot of fun!
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Cool, I want some vids up!
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Welp, first track day with cams... I managed to improve my lap record by about 1,2 seconds.
It goes like stink compared to stock motor. Straight line speeds were up 15-20 kmh compared to chip only but that is partly due the fact that I pushed bit harder. But nevertheless, engine pulls much more willingly in high revs. And LSD is now very useful, I can steer the car on slow speed corners by throttle :)
There is now slight rattle when idling while gear is neutral and clutch is not depressed. Either something with the clutch (I suspect this), gearbox bearing or just a loosened catalysator heatshield (it has happened before).
Non engine related stuff then. One quite fast chap had a go in my car and he said the car understeers on slow and mid speed corners. Also it seems that stock suspension has too little neg camber up front since outer edges of front tires seemed to "bend under" quite badly. I will source few hardened M12x25 bolts and washers so I can shim front suspension bolts that hold lower part of wheel hub. That should gain me -1 to -2 degrees of camber. Photos of operation will follow!
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Update!
Car has now been on two track days with cams fitted so I have now bit more to report.
First of all, my 4€ mod to gain front end neg camber worked very well. I managed to lower my laptime by 1.3 secs (it is now 1:42.0) so that 4€ is best investment to car by far. I added 4 mm thick shimms which gave me about -3 degrees front camber which stopped front tires to bend too much to their sidewalls.
Cams are working fine, car pulls nicely to 7000 rpm and beyond. Limiter is set at 7500 but I rarely go that high.
I seem to have persistent but mild overheating issue, stock radiator is not able to cpe with increased power. After some 5-7 laps water temp needle starts to creep up from center position. Easing the throttle a bit for 20 seconds or turning heater to max lets the temp go back where it should be but those are not practical solutions. I will clean radiator from dust and bugs to improve the efficiency. There is also stock air duct from grille to radiator that my car seems to be missing (due retrofit aircon I presume) so I will source that, it should help some. Also, I will block out lower M tech front bumber opening that is really meant for M3 and models with oil cooler. When that opening is blocked, more air will go trough radiator.
Today I will finish my 2.5" full custom exhaust and 2" exhaust manifold secondaries. I did a brief test revving yesterday while the car was on carage and it was quite loud compared to stock exhaust. Gasket was missing from exhaust manifold flange so lots of noise came from there but disregarding that, there is definitely more noise, sounds bit more deeper than before. I had second thoughts about buying baffled type Dynomax muffler instead of straight trough muffler but considering the noise level, I'm glad I did buy the quieter one! I might have to study options to kill some noise for certain tracks having 97 dB limit.
As for performance changes from new exhaust, well, I can for sure say it is 9 kg lighter then stock! :D
Secondary pipes are bit too large for current power but they are ok for later 200+ hp engine. All in all, new exhaust has superior flow capacity and it might help a bit on high revs already with this 165-170 hp engine. I hope to have test drive today. Or my brother drives and I sit in as passenger since I just lost my license for 6 weeks :rolleyes:
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Ooops, almost forgot!
I happened to find E30 rear diff with 4.1 ratio from dad's garage. I am thinking fitting ring and pinion from it during winter if I send current LSD to maintenance and locking ratio increase (25% -> 40%), it should give useful in-gear acceleration boost.
Also, car will become 99% track car, albeit road legal so I can drive to track and back. So now I can have stiff suspension and stripped interior :)
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just thinking out loud here..if your intrested in better track times...why dont u put a set of good rubber under the car?
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Exhaust manifold secondaries and cat!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2697003260_2824fe51bd.jpg)
Photos of complete resonator and muffler hopefully tomorrow :)
Car has bone stock suspension (apart from poly bushes and front camber shimms) and I suspect sticky track tyres would be wasted with them. I now have 225/50-16 Kumho Ecsta SPT's which have treadwear rating of 320 so they are very hard and they squeel like piggies on turns.
For next season I am thinking of getting something stickier but not outright semi slicks that have treadwear rating around 80-60. But to use them I think I need suspension that has less bodyroll etc. See photo below for current suspension...
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2008/DPP_0014.JPG)
Going 320 -> 60 treadwear should shave 2-3 secs away from 1:42 laptime.
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that is some kick ass progress there!
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Cool, sounds like a lot of progress! Can't wait to see more pics of the exhaust.
Now you just need some of these:
(https://store.nexternal.com/bimmerworl/images/BMW_1_L.jpg)
and some of these:
(http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/michelin/mi_sportcup_ci2_l.jpg)
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Here is the end half of the exhaust.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/2699475386_3dfaab5aa4.jpg)
Bit of adjusting might be needed by filing the flanges and cutting up those turns and re-welding them to slightly different angle, one part of the pipe is bit too close to diff carrier. I think exhaust is about 2-3 cm lower than OEM system.
Front end of the car seems to be missing something...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2698656693_d22a2d9210.jpg)
Look at the cute itty bitty radiator :o
6 cylinder E36 models (325 and 328 atleast) have larger radiator, lower edge is further 11 cm down (around to the level of anti roll bar). I think I will get one of them to help the overheating issue.
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is a lot louder than stock or comparable to an aftermarket exhaust with silencer like remus, ss...? drone?
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No idea how it compares to aftermarket systems but it is definitely louder than stock. No test drivers yet but atleast in idle and low revs the exhaust has very deep bass because every exhaust pulse comes trough the system individually and retaining their forward momentum, stock exhaust mixes them together and you get pretty constant gas flow. Inside the car exhaust seems to get quieter on high revs, maybe because engine noise drowns it. I'm sure it still is loud outside the car.
I would say that on street only car you would like to have something quieter, like stock exhaust :D
I may have to find out ways to lower the noise, we have few tracks that have 97 dB noise limits. Somekind of choke at exhaust tip should work well.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2698656693_d22a2d9210.jpg)
Look at the cute itty bitty radiator :o
6 cylinder E36 models (325 and 328 atleast) have larger radiator, lower edge is further 11 cm down (around to the level of anti roll bar). I think I will get one of them to help the overheating issue.
Damn, that is a small radiator. The radiators on newer BMWs are about 3 times the size of what is on the E36 318is.
E46 330i: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/s/u/187.png
E36 318is: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/i/t/4.png
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ZOMG! Sound sample from exhaust now available! :eek:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25412802@N07/2707100986/?processed=1&cb=1217174095061
Taken with Nokia N95 and there was no-one available to rev the engine so its idle only.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2698656693_d22a2d9210.jpg)
Look at the cute itty bitty radiator :o
6 cylinder E36 models (325 and 328 atleast) have larger radiator, lower edge is further 11 cm down (around to the level of anti roll bar). I think I will get one of them to help the overheating issue.
You'll have to find one from a car with AC otherwise the size will be the same. My 525 '92 has the same radiator as my 318is '90. But now i've put a 325 E36 AC radiator in my E30, bolt-on ;) gotta love BMW :D
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Huh?
My car has been on dyno with only chip about a month ago:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3238/2479989515_5656d1e8b2_b.jpg)
And for chip and cams I stated:
So the answer is yes, I will get the actual dyno graph.
Wow!! Nice results! Are those HP measured at the wheels or the crank?
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From this heap I try to build up 2.5" exhaust... Thingie standing up is 200 CPI metal catalysator which should flow very well
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2564530181_0485a26783_b.jpg)
Please list all those pieces. I want to build an exhaust just like that! I love the sound.
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Dude, where's my car interior?!?!? :confused: :eek:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3253/2733063866_9cf5f73aca.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2732222533_246b84b325.jpg)
From trunk every bit that can be ripped off has been ripped off. All seats are gone, as well as the huge matt from floor. Parcel shelf has been gutted with rear speakers. I calculated weight loss to be around 85 kg (190 lbs). Car looks like SUV because it sits so high now :)
Tomorrow I try to fit in the Sparco Corsa seat. Need to close in the holes to trunk, it is quite noisy in the cabin...
Answers section
That is crank hp, calculated from wheel hp.
Parts needed for exhaust like that (not including exhaust manifold secondaries)
2 x 45 degree 2.5" turn
2 x 30 degree 2.5" turn
3 x 0,5 meter 2.5" straight pipe
1 x 2.5" resonator
1 x 2.5" Dynomax muffler
1 x 2.5" aftermarket cat (I used 3" Catco metallic 200 CPI model with 2 x 2.5" -> 3" adapters
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Your torque looks awesome. 200Nm of torque at the crank for s 1.8L is incredible! That 7500RPM redline is very nice as well!
Btw, the HP begins to fall after 6200 RPM. Any idea whats the cause of that and any plans to let the power climb all the way to red line?
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After that dyno, I have installed more aggressive camshafts and new and larger exhaust manifold secondaries + exhaust which all help to maintain (or shift) power to higher revs but no dyno with them so far.
I might be able to do something for air intake system before throttle body too, lets see :)
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you're in FInland... check on ebay.de the "m3 e36 einzeldrosselklappen".... individual throttle bodies :D
it's time to switch to multi throttles?
P.S: where you bought those exhaust parts?
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Stuff just keep disappearing :confused:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3110/2736387352_f36917a64f.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3192/2735546379_ba5af86e50.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/2736375920_994124797f.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2736359160_cebc63d065.jpg)
That motherfecking sunroof casette weights a ton! Removal of all that mass so high in the car should be readily apparent when cornering hard.
Nuvola, that has been taken care of already :D
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20013.jpg)
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20021.jpg)
(http://www.jannousiainen.net/hobbies/bmw/e36_318is/images/2007/31.12/Picture%20015.jpg)
They are just not installed yet, need programmable ECU first and then dynotime to get them work properly...
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Nice ITB!! May I know where did you get the ITB from? Cause I am also looking for one.
Thanks!
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Well finally! The Sparco has landed :o
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/2743746905_f4797a9c84.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2743744065_14f8b25ef5.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/2743741085_f54a1ec7f1.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3126/2744573056_8059a9eee1.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2743738139_c0673c6608.jpg)
Frame is made out of 5 mm thick stainless steel... Last time ever when I use stainless just for fun, drilling holes etc is pain. And who cares if it is stainless or not when it is painted and inside car.
Colin Chapman would kill me if I would try to fit that sucker on his car, it weights too much. But I take consolation from fact that it is for my own safety and the weight is located very near center of gravity :D
Also, driving position is perfect and seat is aligned to a millimeter with steering wheel, not easily accomplished by aftermarket seat frames in E36 because of large gearbox/driveshaft tunnel.
Today I started making mould for glassfiber/carbon sunroof insert. Too bad my summer vacation ends this weekend so progress will be slower from now on.
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Nice going! I going to opposite direction. I just put back all interior :)
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Nice going! I going to opposite direction. I just put back all interior :)
lol nice!! I gotta pull my seats out and shampoo my carpets again soon.. im glad its not hard to pull just the seats :D
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Boyracer, didn't you plan on converting the lifters from hydraulic to mechanical/solid? or have you already done this?
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Boyracer, didn't you plan on converting the lifters from hydraulic to mechanical/solid? or have you already done this?
Yes I will get solid lifters somehow (buy new or modify hydraulic) but that will happen to engine 2. I started new thread for it last week and you can follow the progress there :)
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Yes I will get solid lifters somehow (buy new or modify hydraulic) but that will happen to engine 2. I started new thread for it last week and you can follow the progress there :)
Thanks! :)
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You ever get a chance to Dyno the car with the cams?
BTW, what specs did you go with on them or did I miss the post?
-Dustin