M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => General Topics => Topic started by: jajou318 on March 28, 2007, 10:51:08 AM
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I just got an e-mail back from Dan @ Miller Performance and he says about a week left. They are just waiting on getting the housings back from the anodizer and getting the harnesses in from BMW ( they are going to make it plug-n-play except for one wire I believe ).
I seriously can't wait till this is in my car...
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How much?
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$375, but I think the price will go up $100 after they are released.
I ordered one. I'm curious to see how it turns out.
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I talked to one of the Brody at Miller and asked about what he could do about custom tuning for different engine mods and this is the reply I got:
Hi Cameron,
Thanks for your intrest. Yes we can work with you like that. However if
you bought the maf now custom tuning would be an additional 150
dollars. And we would read your A/F graphs and send you a couple chips
to try.
That way its a little more efficient. Let Dan or I know if you have any
further questions.
Thanks again,
Brody.
Basically, dyno the car (or map the A/F with a wideband) and tell them what to change on the tune, they send a few chips and you can test which one is best suited to the motor.
I am also local to Jim C. and he is very generous with his tuning abilities and knowledge.
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You could also get the Tuner's Kit from Miller and have the tuning ability yourself. I have the Miller kit on my M5 and it is way cool.
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Looking forward to this...
Dan told me I'd be the first to receive it!
hehe
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Looking forward to this...
Dan told me I'd be the first to receive it!
hehe
right :P
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I was looking into this a while ago, looking forward to hearing how well they work....and how much lighter my wallet will be :(
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whats dan's email?
i want to be cool and get updated as well..
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I bought one and think might be the first for the e36 m42.
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Mike, do you want to chime in on this thread? or do you want wait and see?
Denis, http://www.millerperformancecars.com/contact.html Let us know what he tells you!
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are you asking me to post my results?
Mike, do you want to chime in on this thread? or do you want wait and see?
Denis, http://www.millerperformancecars.com/contact.html Let us know what he tells you!
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Mike, do you want to chime in on this thread? or do you want wait and see?
Denis, http://www.millerperformancecars.com/contact.html Let us know what he tells you!
sent email.
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RE: Dan
Hi Denis,
We have a working software version that we were going to release, but we have decided to perfect some areas so we don't have to issue an update right away. We are just waiting on our test car to return so we can nail some areas we were not happy with. Thanks for you patience and its not going to be much longer.
Dan Miller,
President
Miller Performance Ltd.
604 755 7692
Denis Oreshkin wrote:
> Hey Dan!
>
> How are things coming along with the conversion? There haven't been any updates so I'm just curious as to when the product will be ready!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Denis O.
> Aka Dude8383 on Bimmerforums
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are you asking me to post my results?
lol, I don't know for sure, I was a bit disappointed by what I heard.
Denis they keep saying soon and soon, but my bet is that we get them towards the mid of this month:mad:
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lol, I don't know for sure, I was a bit disappointed by what I heard.
Denis they keep saying soon and soon, but my bet is that we get them towards the mid of this month:mad:
Yeh, its taking the test car an awful long time to "return."
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I'm not in too much of a hurry. I'd rather them iron out all the bugs than give us a shitty product.
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I'm not in too much of a hurry. I'd rather them iron out all the bugs than give us a shitty product.
Yeh I'm with you.
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wow, that's funny, they just refused to sell me one at the pre-release price...
(somehow through all this, its going to wind up being Denis' fault... just you all wait and see...)
anyway, I'm going to hit them up with another email... if it isn't done, it's not released... and if it ain't released... I want the 'aint released' price....
....rrrrrrrrgh.
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lol well when Denis sells his car you can steal his before it goes to the buyer...
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lol well when Denis sells his car you can steal his before it goes to the buyer...
we'll see about that!
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PM sent
M
wow, that's funny, they just refused to sell me one at the pre-release price...
(somehow through all this, its going to wind up being Denis' fault... just you all wait and see...)
anyway, I'm going to hit them up with another email... if it isn't done, it's not released... and if it ain't released... I want the 'aint released' price....
....rrrrrrrrgh.
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Got yer PM! Thanks for reaching out.. So far it looks like a great product and hopefully it will work out for all of us.
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They're no longer selling the discounted preorders...BOO Guess I'll wait for some reviews before pulling the trigger.
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They're no longer selling the discounted preorders...BOO Guess I'll wait for some reviews before pulling the trigger.
im with you on that one.. well actually we HAVE to wait now =\ a maf would be swweeeeett tho..
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anyone hear from them?
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anyone hear from them?
nope, send them another e-mail :p
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anyone hear from them?
I just got a response back from them:
Hi Will,
The MAF systems for the M42 are coming along well. I'm sorry that we are
behind schedule on delivery of these but the software we had developed
wasn't satisfying us. We should have the test car back tomorrow and we
will refine the software so we don't have to issue an update two weeks
after like we would have. So just for your knowledge, they are done, but
we don't want them shipped with the first software version we had
produced. I'm sure you will understand and we are just as eager to get
these systems shipped out as you are to receive them.
Thanks for you patience.
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damn i'm so impatient....
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1 month past eta.
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damn i'm so impatient....
Ditto... It is getting ridiculous now. Anyone heard from them yet?
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http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=708521&page=4
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As of last week they were still soliciting an M42 test car, don't ask me how I know. All the guys in Vancouver , B.C. have shyed away from the whole thing.
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because it's a waste of time and money "don't ask me how I know"...
As of last week they were still soliciting an M42 test car, don't ask me how I know. All the guys in Vancouver , B.C. have shyed away from the whole thing.
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I think a good alternative that can be explored is using an e36 maf coupled with something like an Apex-i SAFC piggy back fuel unit.
To me, I never understood why you would use or need something like this unless you had a wildly modified motor with headwork and cams. Maybe Miller can prove me wrong though...
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because it's a waste of time and money "don't ask me how I know"...
did it not work out so well for you?
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sad but true, I hope it works out well for everyone else tho. IMO if your car is running 100% perfect don't mess with it. The MAF did not improve throttle response, and no increase in power. I had terrible idle issues but they say that's just a software problem that they can work out. I didn't see the point so I went back to the AFM and it's back to normal minus some spliced wires :mad: For the money you'll have to spend, it's really not worth it, if you're lucky it'll run the same as it did before. You're better off spending the money on other mods imo.
M
did it not work out so well for you?
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Bummer it didn't work out well for you. I always figured that I wouldn't consider this mod till my AFM was totally shot, then I could see doing the MAF as a replacement. Otherwise, it doesn't seem worth it to me to be honest. Maybe when the day comes that I have no other E30 projects and I am flush with tons of extra cash.... oh that will be the day!
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Of course, a full rebuild of your AFM is only $175 from BMA...
Ask me how I know! :)
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Yeah even spending the $375 (the pre-release price) is crazy for an N/A car.. The only advantage of having a MAF is no restriction, i.e. no door to get in the way,, IN WHICH really doesn't pose too much of a problem unless you have an AFM flap that sticks.. After learning all about the differences between MAF and AFM, I don't see the point really..
I give these guys props for doing the research (making the ECU see the normal potentiometer reading as a thermister etc.), but for $400 bucks, or I guess now $500 bucks, there's a lot more shit I could do to my car.. Like Alpine, said, I hope the guys at miller can prove us wrong.. Can't wait to see the results
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Of course, a full rebuild of your AFM is only $175 from BMA...
Ask me how I know! :)
Haha true! Let's not shit on this thread though, I'm still interested in hearing the results from the pre-order peeps. ;)
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Well I just asked for a refund. I got bills to pay. :P
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i think they've been emailing everyone from the lowermainland for a test car. I just got an email last week. They're willing to fix my car for me, while i'm gone (free) if they can use it for a test car.
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i think they've been emailing everyone from the lowermainland for a test car. I just got an email last week. They're willing to fix my car for me, while i'm gone (free) if they can use it for a test car.
Well they've already worked on Mike's M42 Cabby and i've heard his review and um yea I really want to pass on this.
Goodluck if you do take it though.
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Well they've already worked on Mike's M42 Cabby and i've heard his review and um yea I really want to pass on this.
Goodluck if you do take it though.
is there a thread about this?
there was a dude with a e34 that got some pretty good gains, albeit we probably won't see as much with our smaller displacements.
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i didnt' say i was going to do it. I just thought it was interesting that they're so desperate for a car that they're willing to fix my car in order to use it as a test car. I'm debating going through with it though...
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I just thought it was interesting that they're so desperate for a car that they're willing to fix my car in order to use it as a test car.
I try to stay away from companies that uses initial security deposits from others to fund their R&D and also don't even have a car of their own. I would feel much more confident in a company that has already done the R&D on our specific cars that also owns one and has a "finished product" ready to go with proven results. I'm not trying to knock Miller but I think things could've been thought out better.
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Anyone else heard from them? So the reason why we don't have them is because there is no car to tune?
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I'm working out a system to get my car delivered over there. They're going to install it, and tune it. The problem they're experiencing is with cold starts. After that they're going to take it to the dyno, see what it puts down and then give it back to me. They said it will be about 2 weeks that they need the car, and i will post up the dyno sheet and what i think of it on july 1st, which is when i get home from Austria.
As for what apline said, i agree. but i suppose they were trying to keep costs down, and get feedback from someone who isn't associated with them. I've met some satisfied customers of them, and i think everything with this will work out in the end.
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I'm working out a system to get my car delivered over there. They're going to install it, and tune it. The problem they're experiencing is with cold starts. After that they're going to take it to the dyno, see what it puts down and then give it back to me. They said it will be about 2 weeks that they need the car, and i will post up the dyno sheet and what i think of it on july 1st, which is when i get home from Austria.
As for what apline said, i agree. but i suppose they were trying to keep costs down, and get feedback from someone who isn't associated with them. I've met some satisfied customers of them, and i think everything with this will work out in the end.
keep us updated man.
i too think it will work out in the end.
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Don't say I didn't warn you...
Good luck
M
I'm working out a system to get my car delivered over there. They're going to install it, and tune it. The problem they're experiencing is with cold starts. After that they're going to take it to the dyno, see what it puts down and then give it back to me. They said it will be about 2 weeks that they need the car, and i will post up the dyno sheet and what i think of it on july 1st, which is when i get home from Austria.
As for what apline said, i agree. but i suppose they were trying to keep costs down, and get feedback from someone who isn't associated with them. I've met some satisfied customers of them, and i think everything with this will work out in the end.
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yeah, my maf harness is already spliced so its not a big deal if they splice into it again. if thats the worst that can happen i'm not very concerned. My friends family knows the owners of miller so i have trust that it should turn out fine. if they blow up my engine... then... that would suck. at least i'd have a damn good reason to rebuild it with the new crank and pistons i have...
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bump. Last I've heard was that they were getting a car this past Saturday.
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that was supposed to be my car. Unfortunately things didn't work out, so its going to be this weekend. however the project manager is going away for a week, so it wont be for a little while yet until results are posted.
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that was supposed to be my car. Unfortunately things didn't work out, so its going to be this weekend. however the project manager is going away for a week, so it wont be for a little while yet until results are posted.
I find it ironic that people have put money down already on this and it's over a month late while the pm is going to be going on vacation. :rolleyes:
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So it won't be for another 2 weeks till they start working on the system? I'm thinking about giving up soon and ask for a refund.
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So it won't be for another 2 weeks till they start working on the system? I'm thinking about giving up soon and ask for a refund.
yeh they seem to be really taking their sweet ass time with this.
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Its really a big deal to do this,, like I said, it's taking a potentiometer reading and converting it in to a thermister reading..
AFMs measure air intake flow basically (and this is a very basic statement) but basically on a 1-100 type scale (i'm sure the actual numbers are very different..) A thermister measures temperature, and depending on the car and whichever other inputs there are, it reads the amount of airflow depending on temperature..
Now, in order to accomplish this, one must make a program (more specifically a series of algorithms) that will tell the computer "IF",,, "THEN".... I'm sure they have the programming done, or i would hope they do,, but working out the bugs on this type of system i would imagine could take years.. There was another m42 member that was looking in to this at one point and I believe he must have given up on it.. One there's no real gains,,, maybe better throttle response, but that's about it.......
All in all, I really wouldn't expect this project to be done anytime soon.. they certainly shouldn't have taken pre-orders yet.. Good luck to all who have ordered it!! I hope you preorder for reasons that you've done research on, and not just because it's "cool"... I think if you haven't done your homework, you're gonna be seriously dissappointed with the results... that's my .02 anyway......
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yeh they seem to be really taking their sweet ass time with this.
Its really a big deal to do this,, like I said, it's taking a potentiometer reading and converting it in to a thermister reading..
AFMs measure air intake flow basically (and this is a very basic statement) but basically on a 1-100 type scale (i'm sure the actual numbers are very different..) A thermister measures temperature, and depending on the car and whichever other inputs there are, it reads the amount of airflow depending on temperature..
Now, in order to accomplish this, one must make a program (more specifically a series of algorithms) that will tell the computer "IF",,, "THEN".... I'm sure they have the programming done, or i would hope they do,, but working out the bugs on this type of system i would imagine could take years.. There was another m42 member that was looking in to this at one point and I believe he must have given up on it.. There's no real gains,,, maybe better throttle response, but that's about it.......
All in all, I really wouldn't expect this project to be done anytime soon.. they certainly shouldn't have taken pre-orders yet.. Good luck to all who have ordered it!! I hope you preordered for reasons that you've done research on, and not just because it's "cool", so someone TOLD you you'd get a shit ton of horsepower and torque... I think if you haven't done your homework, you're gonna be seriously dissappointed with the results... that's my .02 anyway......
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Well, I can understand that it takes time to develop this, but its not the first time they're tackling a MAF for a BMW. They've made them for several other BMW's.
Oh and yes, I'm not one of those that expects HUGE results. I've done my homework. :)
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I just asked for my refund, oh well. The money will now be going towards my 329ti project.
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Just got an email from Brody - they are in CA testing and tidying the software up... Here's the bulk:
We are In California right now finishing the software. We have been working all weekend on it and will continue to do so this week. When we return home Sunday we will be ready to start shipping out the kits that week.
I'm looking forward to placing an order for the finished product. Missed the presale by a couple days. :(
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I find it ironic that people have put money down already on this and it's over a month late while the pm is going to be going on vacation. :rolleyes:
yeah i thought that was interesting too, however it worked out he ended up going on vacation with a 318is, and installing the system on it. they worked out the bugs on his trip and now its supposedly ready for sale.
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Just got an e-mail from Miller. The M42 MAF Project has come to an end.
Miller Performance Ltd.
2001 Abbotsford Way
Abbotsford, BC
V2S 6Y5
Release May 29, 2007:
Dear Valued Customers,
Due to unforeseen complications with the M42 Mass air flow (MAF) conversion, Miller
Performance is deeply sorry to announce that M42 MAF Development will come to an
end. It is no longer profitable to pursue this MAF system. Unlike Miller Performance’s
other MAF system, the M42 will not be able to use the components that are normally
used in the generation of these systems. As well, the Air Flow Meter (AFM) is very
different from any other AFM Miller Performance has studied. The complications that
have risen from the M42 System make it impossible at this point in time to release a
product that holds to Miller Performance’s high standards. There were drivability issues
that surfaced over time as the ECU adapted. With over $6000 invested into the
development, Miller Performance has stated that it is too costly to continue. It will
however, in the future, reopen the research as there is a solution. But, because this
solution will take more time to develop, we can no longer keep our pre-release customers
waiting. We will be issuing FULL refunds to all who pre-purchased their M42 MAF
system.
Again, Miller Performance apologizes for any disappointment and we hope you
understand.
Miller Performance Staff – Public Relations
CC: Daniel J. Miller – President
CC: R. Brody Saari – Vice President
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http://www.millerperformancecars.com/m42mafnews.html
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Its really a big deal to do this,, like I said, it's taking a potentiometer reading and converting it in to a thermister reading..
AFMs measure air intake flow basically (and this is a very basic statement) but basically on a 1-100 type scale (i'm sure the actual numbers are very different..) A thermister measures temperature, and depending on the car and whichever other inputs there are, it reads the amount of airflow depending on temperature..
Now, in order to accomplish this, one must make a program (more specifically a series of algorithms) that will tell the computer "IF",,, "THEN".... I'm sure they have the programming done, or i would hope they do,, but working out the bugs on this type of system i would imagine could take years.. There was another m42 member that was looking in to this at one point and I believe he must have given up on it.. There's no real gains,,, maybe better throttle response, but that's about it.......
All in all, I really wouldn't expect this project to be done anytime soon.. they certainly shouldn't have taken pre-orders yet.. Good luck to all who have ordered it!! I hope you preordered for reasons that you've done research on, and not just because it's "cool", so someone TOLD you you'd get a shit ton of horsepower and torque... I think if you haven't done your homework, you're gonna be seriously dissappointed with the results... that's my .02 anyway......
While the differences between the sensors are great, the conversion is not all that difficult. If you have access to a flow-bench, accurate temperature meter, and a digital multimeter, you can get all the data you need to deal with the 2. Don't forget the all-important ideal gas law either.
I built my own MAF converter from scratch using a PIC microcontroller, a DAC and some other basic passive components to filter the signal. So far, I have about 10 months and 6000 miles on it, with no "hiccups." They took a different route, reprogramming the ECU. That is a LOT more work, but also necesary if you want to claim power gains. I will say it again...converting toa MAF will not give the M42 ANY more power. What their kit was was a MAF, combined with a performance chip. You would see the same dyno gains with JUST a Conforti chip.
MAF's DO improve throttle response and idle behavior. They also eliminate some odd transient effects saving marginal amounts of gas upon acceleration. I feel that these things were worth the trouble, but I am also a big nerd that loves this stuff. If I had to guess about the "driveability" issues thay were mentioning, I would venture to guess that they involve intake resonance. With the M42 having no intake overlap, and the MAF being extremely fast and sensitive, each intake pulse can be resolved. Between 2500-3000RPM, the intake system resonates badly, and without some digital and analog compensation, you get fuel cut. See the link below for why that is. For those in the know, it has to do with aliasing issues and the Motronic sampling below the required Nyquist frequency of the air flow/measurement system.
http://bmw.e30tuner.com/articles_mafcon.php
For a rough primer on sampling signals and whatnot, check this out:
http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/aliasing.pdf
Just got an e-mail from Miller. The M42 MAF Project has come to an end.
Miller Performance Ltd.
2001 Abbotsford Way
Abbotsford, BC
V2S 6Y5
Release May 29, 2007:
Dear Valued Customers,
Due to unforeseen complications with the M42 Mass air flow (MAF) conversion, Miller
Performance is deeply sorry to announce that M42 MAF Development will come to an
end. It is no longer profitable to pursue this MAF system. Unlike Miller Performance’s
other MAF system, the M42 will not be able to use the components that are normally
used in the generation of these systems. As well, the Air Flow Meter (AFM) is very
different from any other AFM Miller Performance has studied. The complications that
have risen from the M42 System make it impossible at this point in time to release a
product that holds to Miller Performance’s high standards. There were drivability issues
that surfaced over time as the ECU adapted. With over $6000 invested into the
development, Miller Performance has stated that it is too costly to continue. It will
however, in the future, reopen the research as there is a solution. But, because this
solution will take more time to develop, we can no longer keep our pre-release customers
waiting. We will be issuing FULL refunds to all who pre-purchased their M42 MAF
system.
Again, Miller Performance apologizes for any disappointment and we hope you
understand.
Miller Performance Staff – Public Relations
CC: Daniel J. Miller – President
CC: R. Brody Saari – Vice President
The AFM is not different than other ones. The voltage-flow curve is different than a non-M42 sensor, but so were the M20B27 and M20B25 ones. They all operated in the same manner. The M42 sounds like it is the only 4-cylinder they have really dealt with as far as a MAF conversion. As such, it has its own set of dynamic air flow issues. Doing this conversion with only a reprogrammed ECU chip would be a real pain without modifying any circuitry. I suppose they could have added some filters onto the sensor body, but I never saw any on there. Most M42'ers already have chips anyway, so this would have done nothing for power, which is what 99% of people want. Thus, they are quite right in saying it is unprofitable. That's why I kinda called off a production version of my unit.
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Well this sucks.
I'm going to have to build my own eventually then.
I better get my refund in a timely manner :)
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Well this sucks.
I better get my refund in a timely manner :)
I hope you all get your refunds promptly as this money is something that could've been used for something more useful. :cool: ;)
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Hehe, well I'm not too crazy about the mtech2 wing, BUT I can assure you it will be spent on something else for the car.
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Hehe, well I'm not too crazy about the mtech2 wing, BUT I can assure you it will be spent on something else for the car.
since you have all this extra money now, you should help me buy a set of those LS rims like ya got there :) Where'd you find those anyways? They're the friggin hawtness!!
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since you have all this extra money now, you should help me buy a set of those LS rims like ya got there :) Where'd you find those anyways? They're the friggin hawtness!!
I bought em over on R3V, this guy AC Nico usually finds nice and rare sets in Germany, and ships from there.
Very stand up guy and prices are relatively reasonable!
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I can vouch for Nico too. I've dealt with him numerous times and only have positive things to say about the transactions.
On another note, what a letdown after all the hype-preorders included. Did any of you notice Mark D'Sylva's post on bf.c about the M20 MAF kit. Maybe we could persuade him into developing a kit for our cars.... just a thought.
LINK (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=752165)
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I can vouch for Nico too. I've dealt with him numerous times and only have positive things to say about the transactions.
On another note, what a letdown after all the hype-preorders included. Did any of you notice Mark D'Sylva's post on bf.c about the M20 MAF kit. Maybe we could persuade him into developing a kit for our cars.... just a thought.
LINK (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=752165)
Not to be a party wrecker or anything, but what is the point? Dropping more than $100 on a MAF kit would leave most people dissatisfied. Now, as far as an OEM replacement, then we are talking a fair deal. I actually think I might market the one I designed as just that since a rebuilt AFM is close to $200 anyway. If I get enough interest from people for one, I would do it tomorrow lol. But, like Miller said, it is just an unprofitable endeavour at this point.
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I can vouch for Nico too. I've dealt with him numerous times and only have positive things to say about the transactions.
On another note, what a letdown after all the hype-preorders included. Did any of you notice Mark D'Sylva's post on bf.c about the M20 MAF kit. Maybe we could persuade him into developing a kit for our cars.... just a thought.
LINK (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=752165)
Yup, I did see that.
In fact, I think Sam may have spoken to Mark, and made mention of making one for our cars.
But as bmwman said above, its not exactly very profitable to make these.
Having said that, I might just do megasquirt and hook it up on my own :)
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"told ya so"
:p
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Anyone get their refund yet?
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Anyone get their refund yet?
Nope, still waiting for mine. I don't expect it to come in a timely fashion either.
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Anyone get their refund yet?
When you get your refund, you can order one of my 93 octane chips. :)
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When you get your refund, you can order one of my 93 octane chips. :)
Haha Exactly what I did...
The funny thing is, I sold your chip in order to help for the MAF conversion!!
Needless to say, I'm glad that I'm back with the chip.