M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: jake_9685 on March 11, 2007, 09:41:07 PM
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is it possible to build the m42's power to around a 325is ? i want to gain some power with out an engine swap or boost. i was thinking about chip air intake and ect.
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You probably won't get that kind of power from an M42 with just simple bolt-ons.
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You just need one of these,
(http://www.procarparts.com/products/UNSPTB-12338TRB.jpg)
and one of these,
(http://www.mowerwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/HONDA-LEAF-BLOWERHHB25_E_185.jpg)
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hahahaha they've designed a box and everything for the "turbo" now too?
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internal work will get you there plus some.. stroke/bore block + headwork and itbs should get you some good numbers...
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The problem with this motor is the head, cam and fuel/ignition system.
The head is restrictive, the cam tops out at redline, and the fuel system is barely adequate. Then ignition, cuts you off just as you peak.
What all this means is, most mild mods (bolt ons) will only net you little gains, if anything.
Which means you need internal work to really get anything out of it.
You have 2 or 3 options.
Get a fully modded head from Metric Mechanic, Like Febi has. This includes springs, cams, retainers, thinner valves, new buckets... A custom chip able to rev to to about 7500.
Expect to spend about $3500 (guestimate) for the head and cams, another grand for the custom chip.
Should get you about 170. Give or take a a few.
Do not expect it to last.
The bottom end needs work to handle those revs. Specifically the bearings. Lighter rods and pistons will also help.
Done properly, expect to spend $5500-$6000.
You can go to a 1.9 by boring it, which will get you around 180hp, thats probably another $500.
Or go all out and stroke it as well for 2.1 liters for 210 hp. Price, expect a couple grand more.
All just estimates.
The only alternative, is to do a bore and stroke without the top end, meaning no extra revs. This will get you what you are after, though porting still may be necessary, as will a cam most likely, which also means a custom chip. All said and done, you are again, looking at a few grand.
The other alternative is an engine swap.
This is tricky.
A heavy motor will upset the handling, the M3 motor IS heavier, plus requires lots of maintenance. The 6 is much heavier and longer, a double wammy. You need a light weight, 4 or 6. The only things that come to mind is the Ecotec from Gm.
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is it possible to build the m42's power to around a 325is ? i want to gain some power with out an engine swap or boost. i was thinking about chip air intake and ect.
My 318is is faster then my roomates 89 325is 5spd any day of the week from any speed.
I have very slight mods that work well together to get 15.8 second 1/4 mile times. With 15" rims and 225/50's
If i remember correctly stock (5spd) times are about as follows.
M3 15.3-15.5
325i 16.0
318is 17.5
My mods...
K&N Drop in
Coil on plug
Mark D 93 Octane chip
11lb flywheel and 325i clutch
4.10LSD
Deleted A/C, P/S, Fan, Fan Clutch
Stock Exhaust.
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camshaft at least 280/270, compresion ratio 11, rev limiter over 7000 and you will get it..
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would a twin weber setup come to that kind of power?
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would a twin weber setup come to that kind of power?
No, the biggest hold up is the cam and head.
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I just realized, he wants brake horsepower.
Isn't the e30 rated at the flywheel?
That being the case, the only way to achieve 170-180 brake is with bore/stroke or supercharging. Plain and simple.
You are not going to get 100hp per liter at the wheels out of an engine like this easily if at all.
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brake horsepower = flywheel horsepower
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brake horsepower = flywheel horsepower
= wheel horsepower :p
Does anyone know of a donor crank to stroke the engine? Is the M43/44 crank longer in throw?
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flywheel horsepower = crank horsepower not wheel horsepower.
M43B18 crank should be the same stroke
M44M19 slightly longer..
M47 crank would be longer... Search for M47 crank stroker discussed here...
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flywheel horsepower = crank horsepower not wheel horsepower.
Yep, just that some people get it mxied up!
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flywheel = brake = crank, donīt mix that ever with power to the wheel
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From answer.com
Brake horsepower (bhp) is the measure of an engine's horsepower without the loss in power caused by the gearbox, generator, differential, water pump and other auxiliaries. Thus the prefix "brake" refers to where the power is measured: at the engine's output shaft, as on an engine dynamometer. The actual horsepower delivered to the driving wheels is less. An engine would have to be retested to obtain a rating in another system. The term "brake" refers to the original use of a band brake to measure torque during the test (which is multiplied by the engine RPM and a scaling constant to give horsepower).
hp (SAE)
In the United States the term "bhp" fell into disuse after the American Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) recommended manufacturers use hp (SAE) to indicate the net power of the engine, given that particular car's complete engine installation. It measures engine power at the flywheel, not counting drivetrain losses.
SAE-certified horsepower
In 2005, the Society of Automotive Engineers introduced a new test procedure (J2723) for engine horsepower and torque. The procedure eliminates some of the areas of flexibility in power measurement, and requires an independent observer present when engines are measured. The test is voluntary, but engines completing it can be advertised as "SAE-certified".
Different strokes for different folks :D
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Actually, I looked into this further.
It has NOTHING to do with where it is measured.
Brake horsepower is how it is measured (clutch and lever). It is a type of dyno. It can be done at the wheels, or the crank, or a driveshaft, it does not really specify.
Kind of like how many people think a supercharger is only a blower.
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How about this for a basic hop-up:
1) match the ports in the head and in the manifolds to the gaskets and polish.
2) Add a chip
3) Tweak the fuel system
4) Add reground cams
What would the cost of these mods be and would any other parts be required? What would the estimated power increase be relative to the BMW published figure of 134 or 136 HP?
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How about this for a basic hop-up:
1) match the ports in the head and in the manifolds to the gaskets and polish.
2) Add a chip
3) Tweak the fuel system
4) Add reground cams
What would the cost of these mods be and would any other parts be required? What would the estimated power increase be relative to the BMW published figure of 134 or 136 HP?
You might squeak out 15-20hp at most.
If you regrind that cam too much and you will need new springs. Hydraulic lifters are finicky about spring rates. Also, if you raise the rpm limit, and hit it too often for too long, do not expect the bottom end to stay together long.
You could get away with all of that for probably $2000. IF you find the right combo.
BMW made damn sure it was not easy to make this car outperform the 325 because had they done a few things different, it would have. Done right, for no more money, this car could have outperformed the M3, which would have really screwed up BMW's lineup.
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Maybe it is time to write an article on the m42 regarding power.
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You might squeak out 15-20hp at most.
If you regrind that cam too much and you will need new springs. Hydraulic lifters are finicky about spring rates. Also, if you raise the rpm limit, and hit it too often for too long, do not expect the bottom end to stay together long.
You could get away with all of that for probably $2000. IF you find the right combo.
BMW made damn sure it was not easy to make this car outperform the 325 because had they done a few things different, it would have. Done right, for no more money, this car could have outperformed the M3, which would have really screwed up BMW's lineup.
could htis explain valve tick that came about exactly the same time as new cams?
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Maybe it is time to write an article on the m42 regarding power.
No doubt about it. I have 200,000 miles on my motor and will be looking at doing something about it soon. There's so much info in different places that it definitely warrants a separate thread. With 160 HP this would be such a great car.
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In order to keep costs at a minimum and achieving some numbers like that, do we need to go FI?
Thoughts?
Chris
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BMW made damn sure it was not easy to make this car outperform the 325 because had they done a few things different, it would have. Done right, for no more money, this car could have outperformed the M3, which would have really screwed up BMW's lineup.
What exactly could they have done differently? Off the top of my head, I am guessing:
- MAF
- More agressive cam
- Better software
What else could they have done for no more $?
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You can go to a 1.9 by boring it, which will get you around 180hp, thats probably another $500.
so with an engine bore do you need new pistons too? what all is needed and whats the cost estimate? i'm not very educated on this stuff
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iīve thought bolt-on cams+chip package which claims 163hv, system costs 820€
they say that no on street use, maybe no low end torque
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BMW made damn sure it was not easy to make this car outperform the 325 because had they done a few things different, it would have. Done right, for no more money, this car could have outperformed the M3, which would have really screwed up BMW's lineup.
On a track an m42 can outperform an e30m3 and a 325iS given mismatched drivers or somewhat equal drivers. Hp and Tq don't make the car fast, it's the driver.
If you're talking of pure drag racing from 0-60 a STOCK m42 is NOT that far off from a 325iS with the basic chip and fresh ignition components as we have seen proven several times. Add cams and a lighter flywheel and you're going to be ahead of an m20b25.
Performance is relative. For what the m42 offers, it delivers a nice "omg he's passing me" expression on the face of m20b25 owners.
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the 140bhp that M42 has to offer is a safe compromise between daily driveability and outright performance... most factory standard engines from most carmakers has something between 120-150 bhp except for the Honda's VTECs or the Toyota's VVTL-i with factory claimed 190bhp.. Both high revvers...
Point is, to get 180bhp on the M42 will require quite some work and higher rev would definitely help.
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On a track an m42 can outperform an e30m3 and a 325iS given mismatched drivers or somewhat equal drivers. Hp and Tq don't make the car fast, it's the driver.
If you're talking of pure drag racing from 0-60 a STOCK m42 is NOT that far off from a 325iS with the basic chip and fresh ignition components as we have seen proven several times. Add cams and a lighter flywheel and you're going to be ahead of an m20b25.
Performance is relative. For what the m42 offers, it delivers a nice "omg he's passing me" expression on the face of m20b25 owners.
x2
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On a track an m42 can outperform an e30m3 and a 325iS given mismatched drivers or somewhat equal drivers. Hp and Tq don't make the car fast, it's the driver.
Only with mis-matched drivers. Otherwise, an E30M3 will smoke a 318is. Horsepower and torque do matter. A driver can maximize the potential of a car but they cannot overcome it.
I am aware of the differences in drivers - I've spent time with Formula Fords and stock cars which are basically spec series and know that lap times vary considerably with identical equipment. But it's also true that some cars are just faster than others because they have more HP, torque, bigger brakes, better suspensions, etc. It's why we're having this thread.
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On track I have yet to be passed by an E30 325i as I seem to have better braking, stability and cornering abilities. I cannot keep up with one in a straight line however. One slight advantage I have is better exit speed, where I can have maybe a 5mph advantage (more of the driver is not as experienced) coming onto a straight.
This can be a problem when stuck behind a slower driver as I maybe partly off throttle (or at least not at the higher speed) coming out of a corner. In a basic foot-to-the-floor drag, I cannot pass due to the better bhp-drag ratio of the bigger car.
Main point is that the 318is gets serious respect on track from lots of different cars even though it is ~17 years old and with a 1.8L engine...
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Oh, and on the last but one track day I did, I ran one session in Group 2 (here in Ireland that is the ~200bhp+ cars). And I wasn't passed once! There was a couple of E46 M3s in there, an E36 M3, two or three E30 M3s, E36 328i, 540i, etc. Of course, I picked my moment to join the track ;-)
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I expect to have more then 180. Maybe 190 idk but i spent quite a bit. But the engine should also last another couple 100 thousand. I cant wait to see how it does against m3s
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On track I have yet to be passed by an E30 325i as I seem to have better braking, stability and cornering abilities. I cannot keep up with one in a straight line however. One slight advantage I have is better exit speed, where I can have maybe a 5mph advantage (more of the driver is not as experienced) coming onto a straight.
I have experienced the same. My question is; what would happen if you switched cars with the said person? If you have a good friend or someone brave enough to switch cars with, please please please try switch cars and let's see the outcome. I almost have the chance to do this in July if things go well.
Only with mis-matched drivers. Otherwise, an E30M3 will smoke a 318is. Horsepower and torque do matter. A driver can maximize the potential of a car but they cannot overcome it.
I am aware of the differences in drivers - I've spent time with Formula Fords and stock cars which are basically spec series and know that lap times vary considerably with identical equipment. But it's also true that some cars are just faster than others because they have more HP, torque, bigger brakes, better suspensions, etc. It's why we're having this thread.
I'd say it comes down to the track and the drivers. Not outright disagreeing and not agreeing with you totally.
I expect to have more then 180. Maybe 190 idk but i spent quite a bit. But the engine should also last another couple 100 thousand. I cant wait to see how it does against m3s
Don't compare your car alone to others...compare your driving skills as well to the other person. All-in-all the best driver always wins ALMOST regardless of what car they're driving within certain boundaries. A fair comparison is when you have a similar car with an almost equivalent driver to you.
For example: A friend of mine with a Lotus Elise cannot pass me @ Road ATL in my m42. If he did pass me in the straights, he would hold me up and end up having point me by again almost immediately after the straights. We had an "agreement" that he would stay behind me and we all just had fun this way last year and for a tad bit this year.
When I switched to my 325i - I had to point him by as the 325i isn't as dialed in as the 318iS suspension wise :mad:
I love discussions like this. For those of you who have never been to a track, skip some fancy mod, and pay for an HPDE session which costs between $250-400 and see where your car and your skills get you. Bring all the dyno sheets you want and talk about all the mods in the world, if you can't drive your car with it's setup, you're not maximizing your "investment" and the fruits of your labor.
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No doubt about it. I have 200,000 miles on my motor and will be looking at doing something about it soon. There's so much info in different places that it definitely warrants a separate thread. With 160 HP this would be such a great car.
Just curious.. is that 200k miles stock and daily driven without any major problems along the way. Im just wondering how long these motors are able to last.
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Just curious.. is that 200k miles stock and daily driven without any major problems along the way. Im just wondering how long these motors are able to last.
The only modification is the COP conversion. The car has 200,000 miles on it and the engine has had the valve cover off twice. Once for a gasket and once for painting. It has never had any work done on it internally. Last fall I pulled the lower pan after several members here had bolts and pieces of timing chain guides in the sump . There was nothing in the pan at all. It's had a timing chain tensioner and a water pump/thermostat at 150,000 miles and that's it.
The local independent shop here in Austin says they go 250,000 with regular oil changes. The M42 has good stuff inside it. Stainless valve guides and seats and sodium filled exhaust valves.
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This is what you can expect with tuning the 318is engine by Dbilas.de
Performance kits for BMW M42B18 Engines
Step I : Upgrade to 114kW / 156HP
includes:
• A throttle body injector system 1453,--
• Complete software update 355,--
• Fitting of the throttle body injector system 261,--
at dbilas dynamic
Completeprice including fitting at dbilas dynamic 1995,--
You save 74,--
Step II : Upgrade to 124kW / 169HP
includes:
• A throttle body injector system 1453,--
• A set of sport camshafts 587,--
• Complete software update 355,--
• Fitting of the throttle body injector system 261,--
• Fitting of the sport camshafts 294,--
at dbilas dynamic
Completeprice including fitting at dbilas dynamic 2850,--
You save 100,--
Step III : Upgrade to 132kW / 180HP
includes:
• A throttle body injector system 1453,--
• A set of sport camshafts 587,--
• Cylinderhead and Valve modification 845,--
• Complete software update 355,--
• Fitting of the throttle body injector system 261,--
• Fitting of the cylinderhead 717,--
and the sport camshafts
at dbilas dynamic
Completeprice including fitting at dbilas dynamic 4090,--
You save 128,--
Step IV : Upgrade to 140kW / 190HP
includes:
• A throttle body injector system 1453,--
• A set of sport camshafts 587,--
• Cylinderhead and Valve modification 845,--
• Complete software update 355,--
• a/N 2000 control unit to replace the 889,--
air flow meter
• Fitting of the throttle body injector system 261,--
• Fitting of the cylinderhead 717,--
and the sport camshafts
at dbilas dynamic
Completeprice including fitting at dbilas dynamic 4900,--
You save 207,--
All prices are in EURO and include 16 % VAT.
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could htis explain valve tick that came about exactly the same time as new cams?
Could.
No way to say for sure though.
so with an engine bore do you need new pistons too? what all is needed and whats the cost estimate? i'm not very educated on this stuff
You need new pistons anytime you do more than honing pretty much.
In order to keep costs at a minimum and achieving some numbers like that, do we need to go FI?
Thoughts?
Chris
Do you think it is wise adding 30% more power to an engine with 200k miles on it?
Can it be done, yes, but your cheap mod, may come to bite you in the ass if 6 months later you need a rebuild.
While these motors can go a long time, the very least I would do, is go through and replace gaskets, and make sure all of the bolts are in place and threadlocked.
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On a track an m42 can outperform an e30m3 and a 325iS given mismatched drivers or somewhat equal drivers. Hp and Tq don't make the car fast, it's the driver.
If you're talking of pure drag racing from 0-60 a STOCK m42 is NOT that far off from a 325iS with the basic chip and fresh ignition components as we have seen proven several times. Add cams and a lighter flywheel and you're going to be ahead of an m20b25.
Performance is relative. For what the m42 offers, it delivers a nice "omg he's passing me" expression on the face of m20b25 owners.
If a 318IS was and felt faster than a 325 or M3, how much trouble do you think BMW would have had convincing people to buy the 325?
You would have been a fool to spend more than double on an M3 if that were the case.
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What exactly could they have done differently? Off the top of my head, I am guessing:
- MAF
- More agressive cam
- Better software
What else could they have done for no more $?
Lighter flywheel, higher compression, higher redline.
But again, they did not want it to perform better.
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You might squeak out 15-20hp at most.
BMW made damn sure it was not easy to make this car outperform the 325 because had they done a few things different, it would have. Done right, for no more money, this car could have outperformed the M3, which would have really screwed up BMW's lineup.
I dont think BMW went out of their way to keep the 318is in check, not to threathen the 325 or the M3.
The 318is have 136hp / 172nm
The M3 have 195hp / 230nm
Difference: 59hp / 58nm
The M3 have better suspension, brakes and aerodynamics, revs 1000rpm higher, got a close ratio gearbox. Engine design wise the S14 are also ahead of the game, especially the cooling system is of better design, it features a crossflow design where the cooling water is flowed into the head at a inlet at each cylinder. Keeping the combustion chamber cooler giving room for more ignition advance.
Lets not forget that the displacement factor on M42 is based on the block from the M40, so if the engine were to even match the M3 2.3l they would have had to engineer a completely new engine. not being able to utilize much of the same parts. At a considerably extra expense.
On the M42 the water flow is first into the block at the front, then to the back of the block, into the back of the head and to the font of the head. This gives a warmer cylinder 1 than cylinder 4.
On the S42 the crossflow desigh was implemented on the "M42 head", i'm sure this design is at a extra cost. As theres exterior piping to allow for this.
It's my opinion that BMW did a very good job on the M42 / 318is, if they didn't i dont think it would have been chosen to be the replacement of the S14B20... But a lot was changed on it though.
The The engine management system on theM42 is superior to the M3 though.
I'm sure a good driver in a 318is could outdrive me in my M3 but then again he could probberly also outdrive me if i was driving a E46 M3 CSL. What i'm saying is that i dont think the driver factor is a good metric for comparing cars... Give them both to The Stig.. And lets hear what he's got to say about them.. :-)
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What else could they have done for no more$?
A lot of things cost no more due to the fact that a manufacturer has to do it anyway. It doesn't cost any more to make a 2.0 liter engine than a 1.8. These things are basically just choices. You could say a bigger piston costs more but it's a really small proportion of the cost. I doubt that it costs any more to configure a head one way versus another. It's easy to get into a mindset that these things cost more because we have to pay the parts cost and installation. A cam is also a good example. I doubt that a "hotter" profile cost more than a milder one when BMW was designing the M42. But we have to pay a $1000 for a pair of Shricks.
The 318is wasn't sold as a performance model power wise. Fuel economy, drivability, and maintenance costs were big factors. M3 owners were under a different mindset and as a result, they were "hot rods".
BMW could have made the 318is a 320is with a head that flowed and hot cams. Some of the other posters have a point in that it would be hard to sell an M3 or a 325 when a 320is had better balance, handling, 175 HP, and costs the same as a 318is. Then make everybody buy a six to get power windows,mirrors, locks, AT, etc. with an upscale leather interior.
I'm dreaming, time to wake up now.
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Cecotto pretty much hit the nail on the head. As to marketing methods...well, take a look at the 335i vs the e46m3 and soon to come, the e92 m3. There's never direct logic present with marketing.
A 318iS being driven on the track is a "unique" combination and BMW didn't ever campaign the 318iS to the best of my knowledge. It wasn't made with competition in mind. I think there was a Dutch or some other European racing series specific to the m42 or 318iS/i ??
The m42 318i was deliberately introduced the way it came. Notice NO options for leather, OBC, cruise control and premium sound system. We also had a bare bones car that had no LSD, trunk decklid spoiler etc. It was the only model were you could opt for no sunroof to even save a few more pfenings. It's almost as if it was made to replace the eta for the economical BMW customer and they also took advantage with sticking the m42 motor in there and followed through with the m50 later on as the offering for the e36s.
For the US market, we were the only ones to get it in a 4 door flavor
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I dont think BMW went out of their way to keep the 318is in check, not to threathen the 325 or the M3.
Maybe not out of their way, but they certainly put no effort into chasing it down either.
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A lot of things cost no more due to the fact that a manufacturer has to do it anyway. It doesn't cost any more to make a 2.0 liter engine than a 1.8. These things are basically just choices. You could say a bigger piston costs more but it's a really small proportion of the cost. I doubt that it costs any more to configure a head one way versus another. It's easy to get into a mindset that these things cost more because we have to pay the parts cost and installation. A cam is also a good example. I doubt that a "hotter" profile cost more than a milder one when BMW was designing the M42. But we have to pay a $1000 for a pair of Shricks.
Exactly.