M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Suspension => Topic started by: sumyungguy on March 04, 2007, 01:17:31 AM
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I'm going to order some H&R Sport springs.. The car already has KYB GR-2's that are a few months old on it, if I don't like the ride I'll probably replace them with Koni yellow's.
Is there a spring rate difference between the H&R's made for '84 and '91 318's, or is it only the .05 inch drop?
I wish H&R would list this stuff on their site...
Thanks..
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I want your 24-70L, sorry that comment wasn't related to what you were asking :(. I'd get the 550ex over the 430ex because of more control :P.
I'd get the lower springs :).
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haha, yeah its a great lens.. The 550ex is discontinued, they replaced it with the 580ex.. I love mine
I want to get springs just need to know if theres a difference??
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Shipping is free on orders over $50 if you order online. Save yourself $10.
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Shipping is free on orders over $50 if you order online. Save yourself $10.
Im aware of that ;) .. Im wanting to know if the spring rates are different between the 84 318i and the 91 318is springs???
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The spring rates are different... I went with the early 318 springs and am very satisfied. I am looking up the rates now.
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Thanks.. I think I going to go with them as well.. I was just wondering.. I searched with no prevail..
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Stock M3 -> 140/250 (others say 100,300?)
Dinan Sport -> 172/300
H&R Race -> 315/570
H&R Sport -> 185/380
H&R Sport -> 200/285 (29664)
Eibach Pro-kit -> 102/277
Eibach Race -> 160/445
Vogtland: 225/360
Ireland Stage 3 -> 315/570
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thanks.. good to know... I went with the 29664's.. Im glad the rears are 100lbs softer, the freeways around here are rough.
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are the 29664s the springs for the earlier 318?
What is the final height difference for each difference?
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are the 29664s the springs for the earlier 318?
What is the final height difference for each difference?
Early 318's, correct.
An older discussion about the differences, HERE (http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119&highlight=29664)
Also, refer to both my thread and Febi Guibo's in the member profiles forum to see a visual difference. I have the 50404's, he has 29664's.
HTH
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Thanks. I'd love to see a side by side comparison of stock vs modified. The 318is I just got looks like a 4x4. Has over a fist worth of gap in the front!
1.25" just doesn;t seem like it'll put this low enough to look "right".
I'm not into slamming them down just for fun either.
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If I had to do my shocks/springs all over again I'd go with the bilstein sports and 29664s. The 50404's don't cut it for me up front.
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If I had to do my shocks/springs all over again I'd go with the bilstein sports and 29664s. The 50404's don't cut it for me up front.
I just got the 50404's , The guys @ H&R said they were the ones to use, Why do you say they " Don't cut it for me " Is it the ride height ? Or the ride ? I have not installed mine yet , Should I change them ?
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I just installed the 29964's today.. Ill post some pictures tomorrow after I get some miles on them. I think im going to go with Koni Yellows when I upgrade the shocks.
On a side note.. this was the easiest lowering job Ive ever done, only took an hour and a half on the ground with hand tools + some bull shitting. Ive never touched an e30's suspension before either. I also must say that all the tutorials that say to drop the diff and remove the exhaust are completly overkill (dont mean to offend). Fronts are a cake walk and the rear's are even easier, just undo the sway bar and shocks, then just use a medium size prybar to remove the spring. I was in awe at the easieness
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Thanks. I'd love to see a side by side comparison of stock vs modified. The 318is I just got looks like a 4x4. Has over a fist worth of gap in the front!
1.25" just doesn;t seem like it'll put this low enough to look "right".
I'm not into slamming them down just for fun either.
Ill get you a befor and after tomorrow.. Its a good drop..
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On a side note.. this was the easiest lowering job Ive ever done, only took an hour and a half on the ground with hand tools + some bull shitting. I was in awe at the easieness
Easy for you Cali boys with minimal rust. :rolleyes: Try a midwest car and you will definitely be eating your words.
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I eat my words every day..
(http://www.x-entertainment.com/cerealprizeproject/group012/3.jpg)
I even get 10 essential vitamins & minerals..
haha
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I eat my words every day..
I even get 10 essential vitamins & minerals..
haha
LOL. :D
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Can't wait to see photos. I think I'm leaning toward this setup. Some of the other setups I've seen are too low (like the look of lower, but not slammed.)
I'm concerned about lowering it too much though and messing with the geometry of the suspension too much. I learned with miatas that sometimes "less is more" and the feel of a great handling car outweighs the "cool factor" of the look.
I've got to do brakes and suspension right away, then I'll do A/C. Belts and hoses will probably come from the local parts store as most online vendors charge way too much.
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I just got the 50404's , The guys @ H&R said they were the ones to use, Why do you say they " Don't cut it for me " Is it the ride height ? Or the ride ? I have not installed mine yet , Should I change them ?
I was referring to the ride height.
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I just installed the 29964's today.. Ill post some pictures tomorrow after I get some miles on them. I think im going to go with Koni Yellows when I upgrade the shocks.
On a side note.. this was the easiest lowering job Ive ever done, only took an hour and a half on the ground with hand tools + some bull shitting. Ive never touched an e30's suspension before either. I also must say that all the tutorials that say to drop the diff and remove the exhaust are completly overkill (dont mean to offend). Fronts are a cake walk and the rear's are even easier, just undo the sway bar and shocks, then just use a medium size prybar to remove the spring. I was in awe at the easieness
You haven't replaced the shocks??
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You haven't replaced the shocks??
It has some kyb's on it that are only a few months old. I usually never drop without upgrading shocks but they are basically new so I figured what the hell..
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Here's my "before" photo.
Holy Fender gap!
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/388000-388999/388522_110_full.jpg)
Definitely need to remedy that!
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H&R Sport 29664's
Before:
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1004/img39902dq2.jpg)
After:
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/575/img4197kh9.jpg)
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5237/img4192ls6.jpg)
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Looking good!
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What a difference... nice work.
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the kyb's and h&r's look great, do they improve handling much? i might go with the kyb's just because of how cheap they are which i know isn't usually a good reason to do something. any words of wisdom?
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very nice! naturally, I'm biased but... NICE!
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I think you just made up my mind on the suspension. That looks like what the designer intended the stance to be.
Plus, it's still got some clearance for the front lip so you're not picking up every dime you run over.
With 15s that'll look even better.
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The handling is a bit better than stock, and you can really tell the center of gravity is lower.The back is soft, but not so soft that theres no oversteer, almost perfect combination with the front. Its really smooth on the freeway and longer trips. I'm planning on putting in Koni Yellows so I can adjust the dampening and stiffen it up when I want, that will be the big difference. Definitely good daily driver springs and shocks.
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I think you just made up my mind on the suspension. That looks like what the designer intended the stance to be.
Plus, it's still got some clearance for the front lip so you're not picking up every dime you run over.
Yeah thats what I said. I went over to my parents house this weekend and parked next to my moms e46 325 w/sport package, it looked like the same style of drop. This is how they should have come from the factory.
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The handling is a bit better than stock, and you can really tell the center of gravity is lower.The back is soft, but not so soft that theres no oversteer, almost perfect combination with the front. Its really smooth on the freeway and longer trips. I'm planning on putting in Koni Yellows so I can adjust the dampening and stiffen it up when I want, that will be the big difference. Definitely good daily driver springs and shocks.
You'll find that there is generally one optimum damper setting for a given set of springs. Save your money for some track days or autocrosses! The other thing is to buy the best tyres you can afford.
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I think they (KYB'S) would be a good alternative for someone with less than 200# fronts that did their own work. At a regular shop the labor costs would make Bilstein's the way to go. They're less than half the cost of HD's or sports.
Has anyone had both of these spring sets on their car? I was curious as to how much difference it made in under/over-steer characteristics.
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You'll find that there is generally one optimum damper setting for a given set of springs. Save your money for some track days or autocrosses! The other thing is to buy the best tyres you can afford.
Oh Im aware of that, I drove a car for 4 years with fully adjustable coilovers. Its nice to fine tune and be able to go soft when your going on a road trip. Track days and autocross I don't drive cause I'm on the side taking pictures for $$$. My suspension setups have always been tuned for the street, keep in mind that when I commute I usually take the canyon roads.
10 miles of twisty fast paced roads a twice a day is very healthy..:D
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But when you go soft, the car is underdamped and that can be worse for comfort...
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But when you go soft, the car is underdamped and that can be worse for comfort...
True, Im kinda veering away from the yellows and gonna stick with the KYB's for now. When time comes to change Ill probably throw in some Bilstein's. But my fronts are GR-2's and the rears are plane old Gas-A-Just, I dont think they like the new position and the dampening is really weak. Maybe some better rears are in order???
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Sounds like it. The H&R's are quite stiff and need a good bit of damping.
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when the ride os overdamped it makes the ide too harsh and keeps the suspension from reacting quick enough. When it is underdamped the car crashes over bumps and the weight transfer can happen too suddenly and give bad handling and ride too. When it is just right the ride is usually at its best.
I do like adjustability though as the car can be tuned for the surface/course you are on. Daily driving is a combination of compromises but adjustable shocks let you fine tune the weight transfer and suspension reactions to various surfaces. Autocross with one set up on an open flat course and then on a bumpy or tight course and your optimum damper set ups will be different.
I'll go adjustable every time...
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when the ride os overdamped it makes the ide too harsh and keeps the suspension from reacting quick enough.
If it is very overdamped it can even jack the car down!
I do like adjustability though as the car can be tuned for the surface/course you are on. Daily driving is a combination of compromises but adjustable shocks let you fine tune the weight transfer and suspension reactions to various surfaces. Autocross with one set up on an open flat course and then on a bumpy or tight course and your optimum damper set ups will be different.
Strictly speaking you'd want to match the springs (or even the roll bars) to the surface first, then the dampers. The softer the springs the more efficent the mechanical grip so they better they are suited for bumpy surfaces.
I don't think I would like to Autocross with softish springs and stiff dampers...
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Sounds like it. The H&R's are quite stiff and need a good bit of damping.
I have the 29664's, the rears are softer than the standard 91 318 is springs.
Stock M3 -> 140/250 (others say 100,300?)
Dinan Sport -> 172/300
H&R Race -> 315/570
H&R Sport -> 185/380
H&R Sport -> 200/285 (29664)
Eibach Pro-kit -> 102/277
Eibach Race -> 160/445
Vogtland: 225/360
Ireland Stage 3 -> 315/570
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Are you sure?
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Are you sure?
These springs aren't stiff what so ever.. are you thinking of the H&R race springs?
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So where are you guys buying your springs and shocks?
I'm going to get the 29664s most likely.
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I got my springs from modbargains.com, After extensive searching they where the cheapest shipped.. $229 shipped (http://www.modbargains.com/product.aspx?pf_id=HR_Sport_Springs_E30_PR)
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anyone know the spring rate on tokico's? they sell a shock/spring set for our cars.
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...adjustable shocks let you fine tune the weight transfer...
IIRC, lateral weight transfer is determined by center of gravity height, track width, and lateral G's. I don't recall shocks, springs, or bars being part of the calculation. The more I try to comprehend it the closer I get to that little girl in the Exorcist - spewing pea soup right before my head starts to spin.
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anyone know the spring rate on tokico's? they sell a shock/spring set for our cars.
E30 spring rates:
Stock M3 -> 140 -> 250
Dinan Sport -> 172 -> 300
H&R Race -> 315 -> 570
H&R Sport -> 185 -> 380
Eibach Pro-kit -> 102 -> 277
Eibach Race -> 160 -> 445
Ireland Stage 3 -> 315 -> 570
Tokico Kit - > 165 - > 265
Landshark Coil over - > 350 - > 450
Cosmo Coil Over - > 275 - > 375
I think these are fairly accurate. If not someone will clear it up.
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anyone know the spring rate on tokico's? they sell a shock/spring set for our cars.
165 front and 265 rear.
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IIRC, lateral weight transfer is determined by center of gravity height, track width, and lateral G's. I don't recall shocks, springs, or bars being part of the calculation. The more I try to comprehend it the closer I get to that little girl in the Exorcist - spewing pea soup right before my head starts to spin.
The stiffer the suspension, the less the weight transfer. If you look at very stiff cars with one wheel in the air, there is no weight transfer to that wheel!
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The stiffer the suspension, the less the weight transfer. If you look at very stiff cars with one wheel in the air, there is no weight transfer to that wheel!
D. Clay is right, weight transfer is determined by 2 things and 2 things alone, track width and center of gravity height. For the engineers out there, this creates a moment arm between the force at the center of gravity and the contact patch. The weight transfer can be broken into 2 component, elastic and geometric. The amount of each is determine via suspension geometry and whats known as the roll center, or roll axis when dealling with the complete car. Geometric weight transfer basically corresponds to the forces that get put through you suspension members due to weight transfer, whilst elastic get applied through your spring; as such can be much more controlled. You will always have some geometric weight transfer, this can create whats known as jacking, which will lift the chassis of the car. But this depends on the roll center position being above ground.
The only way other then varying your track and center of gravity to change the weight transfer is by changing your roll stiffnes distribution. This will not change the total amount of weight transfer from one side of the car to the other, just which wheel it gets applied heavier to(Front or rear outer). That total amount of weight will get taken off the inside wheels(again changes with roll stiffness distribution).
This is bascially why adjustable anti-roll bars can be so useful. By varying the roll stuffnes distribution front to rear the over steer understeer characteristics of the car can be varied.
Anyway ill leave it there or ill waffle on for ages about it. There are dozens of more parameters that can vary what is happening.
Also lifting of a wheel can happen if a car rolls to far and the inner wheels hits its droop limit, while the car physically rolls more. Such a case creates a different behaviour in weight transfer of the car. Which would seem that increasing stiffnes decreases weight transfer. Instead increasing stiffness is changing the behaviour of the car to limit roll, to hopefully have the wheel not hit its droop limiter and hopefully not lift that corner. Once this is achieved increase stiffness will not change the amount of weight transfer. Many open wheel race cars run droop limiters not giving the car the ability for the wheels to drop very far. This doesnt mean they they are trying to lift the inner wheel though. It is actually a more complex behaviour all together.
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As your suspension gets stiffer, it get more efficient at transferring the forces created by the moment you correctly mention into the tyre. Think of a live (solid) rear axle. By having one wheel rigidily linked to the other, 100% weight transfer is achievable if there is sufficient moment to roll the car that amount. Introducing an an independancy in this suspension will mean that more roll is need to get this 100% weight transfer (or it hits its suspension stops as you suggest). I don't thing any car would want to hit it suspension stops when cornering!
With stiffing antiroll bars you will reduce the overall grip on the axle (all other things being equal) and this means that you can balance the car. The trouble is, ARBs control roll angle and the subsequent presentation of the tyre to the road so their affect is not as straight forward.