M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: MoMansi on October 07, 2015, 05:32:40 AM
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Hi all,
i'm new here, i have an E30 coupe with M52B28 engine, i will be swapping it for an M42 or M44, didn't decide yet, however I'm leaning towards the M44 for the smoothness and refinement, the car is a daily driver, no tracks or auto cross for now, i previously drove an S14B20 which was an excellent engine, got two in the garage right now for rebuilding, but that will take some time, so i decided to go for the 4 cylinder engines again, the M52 is fine, but i like high revving 4 cylinders better.
i got some questions, will be starting with each one at a time,
does the M44 benefit from the 57mm second butterfly upgrade like the M42???
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An M44 may benefit from the larger tb but it's mostly unproven. It would be dead last on my list of mods and even then, only if I fell into one for cheap. The stock m44 cams are so sleepy that I'd doubt it would do anything unless other major work is done. Sorry for the late reply, we're normally pretty helpful.
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so what do you suggest?
i've been reading a lot on this forum, and i'm learning a lot on the way, i can't stroke the engine for two reasons:
1- i can't supply the diesel crank here, it will cost hell A LOT.
2- we don't have decent tuners here that one can rely on so far.
so i was thinking, M42 with:
1- higher compression ration, 11:1
2- i can get the S52 lifters and tray and custom fit the tray for a lighter valve train along with 6mm valves
3- i already have a bored TB, secondary ported to 57mm
4- was thinking of porting the shorter runners on the DISA plenum for higher rpm gains.
5- chip the DME from a reputable tuner.
opinions please?
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If you haven't already, curl up with m42club.com on your device next to a nice warm fire and start reading. Several of us there have done different types of builds with varying results. The M44 is no B18 so don't expect a catalog with inexpensive bolt-ons.
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Use a e30 m42 inlet manifold or m50 manifold cut down or itbs. Late m42 and m44 inlet manifolds have disa and although good for bottom end it restricts the car later, 4 even length inlet runners is the way to go!
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m50 manifold cut down
I never even thought of this. But I might need to look into it. It meets one of my main criteria, it would be cheap.
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m50 manifold cut down
I never even thought of this. But I might need to look into it. It meets one of my main criteria, it would be cheap.
I had thought of this for mine but im not 100% if i could to pass rally regulations. Would be interesting though.
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maybe the problem with the DISA valve is on the short runners, maybe they need porting, has anyone tried that?
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Doesn't the M43 has a version with plastic intake manifold with DISA?
looks almost identical to the M42/M44, but the two runners on the DISA look a bit larger than the M42/M44 one...
any ideas?
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here it is
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i just remembered something, i used to have a 4G92 Mivec engine, it's a 1.6 later engine producing 170HP with Mivec, and it has a similar roller / rocker valve train setup to the M44 but has a conventional intake system, the engine revs to 7500 rpm from the factory...
is there a difference in the valve mechanism prohibiting reaching that rpm? if the bottleneck is not in the mechanism, then it should be in the cams or the intake ports themselves, i.e; head porting....
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here is a picture of the head of the Mitsu
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maybe the problem with the DISA valve is on the short runners, maybe they need porting, has anyone tried that?
They could use pocket port-matching. Around 1mm radius iirc to the gasket size. I started on mine but I decided to use the e30 manifold since he e36 port angles are not the same for all cylinders. In my opinion the air has too far to go far in this manifold. What do I know, tho.
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The M44 head is similar to the mitsu heads it seems. I have noticed it is similar to the 4G63 heads on the EVO. These heads can handle really high RPM which makes me think the M44 is not a bad design. I think the main thing holding it back are the weak cams it comes with. I would love to see how some aggressive cams perform! I also think the BMW rockers seem quite heavy, so this would need to be improved as well for higher RPM use.
Honestly I think the M42 head gets used the most because its the easiest to get with more aggressive cams.
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Hi
With cutting down the m50 manifold, if you where really clever you could open the plenium up and add little trumpets. Would possibly work better than itbs, you see no butterfly in the way. Throttle butterfly before plenium.
You would have to check bolt compatibility, or be good with a welder. Compare there gaskets.
Just a thought
Cheers Rohan
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The M44 head is similar to the mitsu heads it seems. I have noticed it is similar to the 4G63 heads on the EVO. These heads can handle really high RPM which makes me think the M44 is not a bad design. I think the main thing holding it back are the weak cams it comes with. I would love to see how some aggressive cams perform! I also think the BMW rockers seem quite heavy, so this would need to be improved as well for higher RPM use.
Ok, apples and oranges here but, mercedes 4v heads have come in 2 varieties as of late. The garden variety: rockers and usually a 6,200 rpm rev limit- Nearly every post '05 cyl head has this... except for the pinnacle of AMG engineering, the 156 6.2L n/a beast. Cams over buckets and a 7,200 rpm rev limit . Its inefficient as hell, and superceeded by a turbo rocker arm engine but if I could afford the car and the fuel on my commute, I would own a 6.2L AMG powered C63.
Now for the type of driving we all mostly do? It probably doesnt matter which type our engines have. 6.2's beat the hell out of their flat tappet bucket type lifters. The poor side loading caused by rockers destroys the guides and seats on our other engines.? 6 in one...but I prefer the buckets.
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The M44 head is similar to the mitsu heads it seems. I have noticed it is similar to the 4G63 heads on the EVO. These heads can handle really high RPM which makes me think the M44 is not a bad design. I think the main thing holding it back are the weak cams it comes with. I would love to see how some aggressive cams perform! I also think the BMW rockers seem quite heavy, so this would need to be improved as well for higher RPM use.
Honestly I think the M42 head gets used the most because its the easiest to get with more aggressive cams.
One more month my m44 should be in. Ran in and been mapped.
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update:
just got rid of my M52B28 engine :)
the guy who bought it couldn't just believe i'm selling it to get a 4 bangers :D
he even thought the engine has a problem, but everything got sorted out....
i'm really glad, finally no more 6 cylinders, back to the nimble and lighter 4 bangers....
i will do my best to make an S14B20 replica engine with an M44, i will mostly be doing everything myself...
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anyone tried swapping intake cams from M42 to M44? cam sprockets as well?
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anyone tried swapping intake cams from M42 to M44? cam sprockets as well?
Not easily done m42 on lifters and m44 on rockers, as a consequence m44 lobes are a lot bigger but the bolts for cam timing wheels don't line up, so your timing would be off amongst other problems!
Cheers Rohan
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Cams? No.
The sprockets, however, need to follow the DME for the timing tabs or wheel. I'm startimg to feel like a lot of the questions lately have been asked, and answered on this site already.
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ok sorry for that (the many questions), will do more reading, i apologise
got the M44 engine with second plate throttle bored to 57mm...
currently in the car painting process, will start on the engine as soon as i finish the paint job...
got me an old E24 OBC that i will try to retrofit, mad project with lots of difficulties but i will study it well, will try to :)
the engine will mate to an E30 M40 get rag gearbox, i need the 5th gear as overdrive as i do a lot of highway cruises, and a 3:45 differential for now.
Cheers
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while in the car is in the painting process, i thought i would remove the intake manifold for some cleaning and check ups:
did anyone notice that ports 1 and 4 on the intake runners ports are kinda narrower at the injector base and entry of the head ? had to port match the 4 ports.
also gasket matching the upper and lower manifolds requires removing of significant amount of metal, already in the process, porting and polishing whatever gets in my hands.
another thing the supposedly "short" runner isn't really that short compared to the "longer" one, slight difference, so i thought about doing this, i will enlarge the air box by cutting and welding the short runner to extend the air box to the area between the two runners "the triangular area" and that should really get the short runner near the ITB effect and allow more air on high rpm.
any ideas?
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sorry i'm trying to post pics
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done
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port no.4
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Port no.1 still in the process
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view of the runners
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working on the runners
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gasket matching the upper part
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getting there
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ready to be finished and some polish i guess
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the lower part of the manifold and the middle plate and the gasket, the three are way off each other!
i will address them soon, maybe in a couple of days.
the upper manifold porting and enlarging for the air box, should be very useful for high rpm, the runner will be 33% shorter and the air box will hold more air, we'll see.
i got the idea from a friend tuning his VW Golf with VR6 engine, they do the same thing, the results are significant, like the M50 manifold on M52 engines, that kind of results.
any ideas?
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that area
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Hi
No ideas sorry most people go for e30 m42 intake or itbs, not sure what your going to get! But very interesting.
Cheers Rohan
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well, Thank you Rohan,
i'm basically trying to keep the low rpm torque characteristics and drivability of the car while improving the top end breathing as much as i can.
best of both worlds :)
Cheers
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So your going to open up the secondary inlet system (high rpm) of the disa.
How much do your think you will get ?
Cheers
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honestly, i don't have any figures in mind, i'm trying to squeeze every possible gain at this stage before moving to hotter cams and head work next year, so for now, i got lightened flywheel, ported manifold and will check for a good machine shop to try the secondary butterfly of the throttle to be bored out to 57mm.
cheers
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You can run 10.000RPM with hydraulic lifters.. but not the stock ones... any good (and therefor hyper expensive) engine builder can make it work for your car.
F1's pneumatic valve systems are an extreme example of it.. just one step further.
'mechanical' lifters are just cheaper, but less efficient..
sure the ducati desmodronic engines have lot of power.. but the amount of friction the desmodronic has is insane.
btw, where are you located to have 2 (!!) S14B20 engines?
there are some E30 320is cars on sale in italy now.. but they are overpriced if you ask me.
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Is it possible to get uprated lifters and followers for the m44 off the shelf or off another engine?
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i'm located in Egypt, i owned a 320is before, and still in love with it, had two engines in my garage, and there's one for sale in cairo also.
would love to have this car again if you ask me, yeah they are over priced, i may look for a scrapped one with the engine and drivetrain intact later.
Cheers
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by the way, what are their prices now?
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by the way, what are their prices now?
cheapest is 16.000 euros.. and the most expensive is 23.000 euros.
For that kind of money you can buy a nice E46 M3 / E60 M5!
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Damn!
very expensive!
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i got my first one back in 2005 for 1000 euros :)
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guys, anyone tried the N42B20 intake cam swap?
the specs look good, but physical instalment did anyone try it?
i may get hold of one in a couple of days to check.
cheers
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No sorry most of us have m42 heads, which pretty much stuffs any chance of using the later engines camshafts.
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update, the N42 cams won't fit, so i'm settled on high compression ratio 11:1, port and polish of intake manifold, enlarge the high end runners and double the air box capacity for the high end runners, enlarge the second throttle to 57mm (i found a shop)...
the other alternative is to install an eaton supercharger from a mercedes on the stock compression ration and internals, but i'm still studying this option, as the main issue I'm facing now is remote tuning as the build will be custom....
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i've been porting out and polishing my intake manifold, the amount of material to be removed was really significant, also i found out that the ports of the M42 are much more symmetrical unlike the ports to the head of the M44 that got 1 and 4 a bit chocked down....
will port match the three parts of the manifold together very soon, as they are not aligned together.....
really the casting quality of the manifolds is not that good, a lot of work to be done, but i enjoy it :)
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Hi
Which inlet manifold are you using?
Cheers Rohan
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The stock M44 dual intake manifold
Cheers
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help please
anyone knows the intake cam duration of the M44?
can't find anything online...
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Catcams knows ;)
http://www.catcams.com/engines/camshaft-setup.aspx
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Thank you so much, very useful info :)
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very interesting info on Cat cams, the exhaust cam has more duration than the intake cam, but with the same lift!
STD249°/257° - 207°/209° - 9.70mm/9.70mm - 1.20mm/0.55mm
that's exactly what they have on their website... any idea if i can swap them?
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one last thing, when you guys state your cam profiles, which digits you usually use? the duration@0.1 or the duration @1.0?
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That's quite surprising since m42 standard are 240 deg 9.7 mm. Don't think anyone has longer duration cams on there exhaust.
It's generally longer duration on there intake cams.
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I was shocked myself, but their data are supposed to be accurate
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I just checked on their website now, they state this for the m42:
STD255°/255° - 207°/207° - 9.70mm/9.70mm - 0.90mm/0.65mm
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Interesting I got my info from e30 tech.
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can we get Ralph to join us?
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Ok I'm here.....
Not sure how I can help but I'll do my best.
I don't know much about the M44. But from reading the posts I gather the numbers are confusing.
When different manufacturers list their cams they sometimes list the cam duration at .005" of lift (advertised) and sometimes .050" of lift (actual). They sometimes also list them at 2mm as well. I also think they list them as a pair, intake and exhaust. Off-setting Intake from Exhaust sometimes helps to keep your torque.
So for instance if I list my cams I'll tell you they're 250/250 with 10.287mm of lift. So my duration is 250* at .005"(advertised). The standard in the industry is to call the cam what it is at .050" which then makes my cam a 222*(actual). Schrick 256 cams advertised are 215* actual at .050". I did not offset my cams. Both intake and exhaust are the same.
But the lift plays a part in this too as well as cam timing of events intake opening/ intake closing exhaust opening/exhaust closing. IO/IC-EO/EC.
This all depends on those numbers for cylinder filling. You can get the actual duration at .050" by having these numbers. Example: my cams are -5.5/47.5-47.5/-5.5 You take the -5.5 + 47.5= 42 + 180= 222.
Other number listed are usually lift at top dead center.(TDC)
Now in choosing a cam, well that's a lot harder than it seems. Most people over cam their engines and then they wonder why their car is slow! LOL
It's because you moved the rev band and lost the torque that actually propels you forward so you can get to the HP. Anyway....this is why I have always said you need to have all the math done before you build because the cams could make or break the whole build.
So....You will need to actually talk to your builder or cam manufacturer to properly size the cam for your engine. You don't want a little 3 cyl Sprint turbo beating you to the checkered flag...hahaha I always thought the Sprint's 0-60 time was 3 days but I was way off...it's only 8.7 secs.
PS..I'm looking into cams now myself but may try advancing the intake cam by 5* first and see what happens. No loss of torque by doing this.
PSS.. more lift and duration means more air...which means more fuel...which means more power, BUT only if you have the compression to support it.
HTH...
Cheers,
~Ralph
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PSS.. more lift and duration means more air...which means more fuel...which means more power, BUT only if you have the compression to support it
Out of interest. What if you had the compression to support aggressive cams. But have actually undercammed the engine (thinking my engine may be in this situation)
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Well then go for it!! But again, more duration and lift will move your power band as well. It may move 500-1000 rpm if not too aggressive. Also remember the state of your piston reliefs. Are they pocketed enough to handle the lift?
Not sure there is a big deal with not having enough cam other than running out of umpf at the top end.
I know my engine can definitely handle more cam because I top out at like 6900-7000rpm but can rev to 7,500. So I've made all my 212HP by then :D so no need to run it higher unless you're holding that gear to make a specific corner without shifting on the track.
Dyno sheets help tremendously too. They show you where your engine is running at. New cams will shift those graphs hopefully for the better!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Ralph! I can't thank you enough ffir the valuable info, unfortunately I can't cam up the engine now, i will hold the performance modifications, the serious ones for now, did you check the intake modifications i intend to make?
I will either supercharge the engine or make a high performance N/A one, depending on the best drivability and street performance i can get without changing the crank!
For now I'm finishing up the whole car as it was in paint job, but meanwhile I'm studying and reading about the engine.
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OK well here is what I found out about Dbilas and their claims.
Here's a detailed list of the complete install possibilities.
Performance kits for BMW M42B18 Engines
Step I : Upgrade to 114kW / 156HP
includes:
- A throttle body injector system
- Complete software update
Step II : Upgrade to 124kW / 169HP
includes:
- A throttle body injector system
- A set of sport camshafts
- Complete software update
Step III : Upgrade to 132kW / 180HP
includes:
- A throttle body injector system
- A set of sport camshafts
- Cylinder head and Valve modification
- Complete software update
Step IV : Upgrade to 140kW / 190HP
includes:
- A throttle body injector system
- A set of sport camshafts
- Cylinder head and Valve modification
- Complete software update
- a/N 2000 control unit to replace the
air flow meter
Supercharging sounds like a blast too!! I wouldn't mind doing a project like that. However I'm going to lay off the tinkering for a little while.
You're welcome.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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very interesting, i really appreciate it
i'm more encouraged to do the N/A modification now and stay in the 200 HP area, i'm not really chasing numbers, i just want to get a similar performance out of it like my old S14B20 engine (which was a great engine by the way) but with more drivability and smoothness...
that's my actual goal really :)
Cheers