M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: normboudreault on March 13, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
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For those of you who've seen my thread in the general chat section I'm considering buying an M42 engine from metric mechanic. Have any of you guys either bought or have come across any of their engines? I've emailed them for information but I haven't heard anything back yet.. I know they are expensive but with the 240,000kms on my engine I think a rebuild would be a good idea. I figure a typical rebuild would be about 3000-4000. A Metric mechanic rebuild is about 10,000. Insanely expensive but I would have a new engine with 200 horsepower. What do you guys think?
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BMWMan91 has one, PM him. I'd love to have one myself.
He had some trouble with valve springs IIRC, but MM went over the top to fix all the problems.
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I remember when I was in jr high my dad had a friend who ran a BMW repair shop. One of his customers told him to order a MM M30 crate engine to put into an E24. It turned the car into a monster ... It might be cheaper to do a OBD1 M5x/S5x engine/trans/LSD swap than buying a MM-M42 crate engine, but It's been a long time since I have heard a BMW 4 Banger rev up to 8500 RPM.
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I've read that they aren't the greatest about responding to e-mail, but they are happy to talk to you on the phone. Might be worth giving them a call. I'd love one of their engines but have to save my pennies and hope that I can justify the cost to the wife one of these days.
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Phone is the best way to get a hold of them.
MM builds quality engines and are nice guys. The cost is high though but anything quality is.
If you are on a budget you can build a similar engine for much less as the parts are all standard parts. Its a lot more hassle though and you have to trust the engine shop figures everything out correctly!
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Thanks for the reply guys - its reassuring to hear some positives about them.. They did answer my email - they told me they would email me with more info next week but if i wanted to talk on the phone.... ha!!
:-)
Right now im just at the information gathering stage. I know I could just swap in a more powerful 6 but I want to retain the m42. There's a reason there is a 4 in the e30 m3 and its all about revs and handling. Same for the 318iS. While i wont be racing this car i may occasionally bring it in for a relaxed track day and i will ALWAYS be DRIVING the thing...the way its meant to be driven...
DesktopDave, i will pm bmwman91 and see what he has to say...
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Norm relax a bit you have a whole car to do!
Plus mm m42 will still require tuning, injectors and driveline changes but your diff will be right.
I think a better way to go would be rebuild the one you have got and far less expensive anyway.
Undate a few things like timing wheel to rail, cop conversion and 360 bearings.
But by all means use the mm bearings.
I'll send you 2 s50 b30 pistons euro. I'm willing bet there is another dozen in this forum sitting on people desks probably, as they usually come in sets of 6.
M44 crankshaft and engine loom saves playing around with afm! Ie straight to maf.
3.14* 4.3*4.3*8.35*4= 1.94 l
And maybe a camshaft or 2, there is a couple on sale here in this forum!
Add a little tune and exhaust and it will be quite fun. There are heaps of people who will help you through the process here! Compression ratio, piston decking etc
And it gives the car a personal feel about it.
But I guess it will depend on how far you want to go!
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I believe the MM engine packages come with tuning.
Are you guys from Oz? Sounds like it from the writing :)
The M42 is a really fun engine. Even with cams and tuning the engine really wakes up! The M42 also keeps the front end light, which is noticable when compared to a 6cyl.
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I believe the MM engine packages come with tuning.
Are you guys from Oz? Sounds like it from the writing :)
The M42 is a really fun engine. Even with cams and tuning the engine really wakes up! The M42 also keeps the front end light, which is noticable when compared to a 6cyl.
Does mm supply injectors too?
Yes wazzu70 I'm from oz, but norm is Canadian.
I completely agree with you about the m42.
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MM provides a chip and injectors with the engine. For the most part, I would say that no tuning is required. I bet you might be able to squeeze out another 1-5HP with a custom tune since no two engines are built exactly the same, but it runs clean and strong with the tune that Court @ MM came up with for it. One thing to note is that it gets 27-32MPG according to the OBC, but the real mileage is more like 20-23MPG based on the odometer. Maybe my wide-band controller is a little wonky (the exhaust does smell a tiny bit rich) which isn't helping, but I don't expect to ever see more than 250 miles on a tank.
Norm, as I mentioned in my email, get the car up and running with the stock M42 and get accustomed to how it drives. It's actually fun as hell with a stock engine (and a lot more fun with a 200bhp+ engine!).
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I would have to pass on a $10,000 M42 engine. I know it can be great and all but that is seriously pricey. A normal engine rebuild is $2000 and no more if you take it to a machine shop yourself. $8000 for pistons, head work, boring, ground cam, and a tune seems a bit high when you price things out yourself. I am not doubting that their product is great, but the price may seem steep. Especially for a $5k car.
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Bmwman91 I think is speek for everybody when I say that we would love to see some pictures of your mm engine.
I wonder whether you ever got itbs and the plenium going?
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Norm relax a bit you have a whole car to do!
Plus mm m42 will still require tuning, injectors and driveline changes but your diff will be right.
I think a better way to go would be rebuild the one you have got and far less expensive anyway.
Undate a few things like timing wheel to rail, cop conversion and 360 bearings.
But by all means use the mm bearings.
I'll send you 2 s50 b30 pistons euro. I'm willing bet there is another dozen in this forum sitting on people desks probably, as they usually come in sets of 6.
M44 crankshaft and engine loom saves playing around with afm! Ie straight to maf.
3.14* 4.3*4.3*8.35*4= 1.94 l
And maybe a camshaft or 2, there is a couple on sale here in this forum!
Add a little tune and exhaust and it will be quite fun. There are heaps of people who will help you through the process here! Compression ratio, piston decking etc
And it gives the car a personal feel about it.
But I guess it will depend on how far you want to go!
Darky, as always your enthusiasm is awesome ;D But my experience with engines amounts to putting oil into them!! Still, that wouldn't stop me!! bmwman 91 has given me lots of great info and I really do have time on my side so I can definitely look into all possibilities.. What is the timing wheel to rail update? I havent heard anything about that... :-[
Im really leaning to using the original engine and some MM parts. But no doubt whatever route I take I'll be leaning hard on you guys to help me thru it.... ;)
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Bmwman91 I think is speek for everybody when I say that we would love to see some pictures of your mm engine.
I wonder whether you ever got itbs and the plenium going?
Honestly, there isn't much to show in pictures. On the outside, it looks like a normal M42 with an M44 oil filter housing, an adapter bracket to hold the crank position sensor and some capped-off tubes welded onto the stock intake manifold.
No ITBs or anything at the moment. Maybe someday, but it has a nice balanced powerband and I don't want to make it feel "peaky" which ITBs seem to do. Sorry to be anticlimactic, but the real wonders are inside, and I am not about to crack it open any time soon!
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MM does some cool stuff to their heads, diff, and trans.
Bmwman91 I think is speek for everybody when I say that we would love to see some pictures of your mm engine.
I wonder whether you ever got itbs and the plenium going?
Honestly, there isn't much to show in pictures. On the outside, it looks like a normal M42 with an M44 oil filter housing, an adapter bracket to hold the crank position sensor and some capped-off tubes welded onto the stock intake manifold.
No ITBs or anything at the moment. Maybe someday, but it has a nice balanced powerband and I don't want to make it feel "peaky" which ITBs seem to do. Sorry to be anticlimactic, but the real wonders are inside, and I am not about to crack it open any time soon!
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Bmwman91 I think is speek for everybody when I say that we would love to see some pictures of your mm engine.
I wonder whether you ever got itbs and the plenium going?
Honestly, there isn't much to show in pictures. On the outside, it looks like a normal M42 with an M44 oil filter housing, an adapter bracket to hold the crank position sensor and some capped-off tubes welded onto the stock intake manifold.
No ITBs or anything at the moment. Maybe someday, but it has a nice balanced powerband and I don't want to make it feel "peaky" which ITBs seem to do. Sorry to be anticlimactic, but the real wonders are inside, and I am not about to crack it open any time soon!
Fair enough!
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Well I finally heard back from MM - very nice people, but the cost, considering shipping, taxes, exchange rate was nearing 14 large. Might as well start looking for a good M3 if I spend that much on an engine.... :P
So, after considerable back and forthing with bmwman91 I've oddly decided to do the rebuild myself. Yup, you heard right. Im really looking forward to it as well. He kinda talked me into it so whatever happens we'll blame him alright? ;D
He is a smart guy and being an absolute engine virgin I'll be picking lots of brains around here for info and ideas... ;)
Got the next 10 days off work so should get some work done on the car.. posts to come... 8)
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Well, all-righty then! Looking forward to this build! :)
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Well I finally heard back from MM - very nice people, but the cost, considering shipping, taxes, exchange rate was nearing 14 large. Might as well start looking for a good M3 if I spend that much on an engine.... :P
So, after considerable back and forthing with bmwman91 I've oddly decided to do the rebuild myself. Yup, you heard right. Im really looking forward to it as well. He kinda talked me into it so whatever happens we'll blame him alright? ;D
He is a smart guy and being an absolute engine virgin I'll be picking lots of brains around here for info and ideas... ;)
Got the next 10 days off work so should get some work done on the car.. posts to come... 8)
Gold!
Already blaming someone else!
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Well I finally heard back from MM - very nice people, but the cost, considering shipping, taxes, exchange rate was nearing 14 large. Might as well start looking for a good M3 if I spend that much on an engine.... :P
So, after considerable back and forthing with bmwman91 I've oddly decided to do the rebuild myself. Yup, you heard right. Im really looking forward to it as well. He kinda talked me into it so whatever happens we'll blame him alright? ;D
He is a smart guy and being an absolute engine virgin I'll be picking lots of brains around here for info and ideas... ;)
Got the next 10 days off work so should get some work done on the car.. posts to come... 8)
Gold!
Already blaming someone else!
Ha! It's OK, being married I am already used to being blamed for everything. So I just tune it out!
Should be a fun build. A lot of guys on here have built up hot M42's so there is plenty of knowledge to pull from. I can't claim to be an expert since I paid someone else to build mine, but I'll chip in what I can!
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There are some good builds going on in the Swaps, Turbos, Buildups section. Also mabeer's build a few posts down in this section.
If you ask a question, someone around here will know the answer and be willing to help :)
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Of course I'll share what I know as well..... Just need an idea of what direction this build is going in, like minor or major?
Lots of math!! LOL
can't wait.......
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Thanks for the support guys!! It will make all the difference...
At the moment, Im not ready to tackle the engine, if you havent already, check out my build thread in the general topics section: 1991 318iS resto... Then, after you've thanked God YOUR car is not in 6 trillion pieces like mine is, you'll understand why Im not quite ready for the engine. Having said that, I do plan on starting in the fall, so my information gathering is starting now...
Is it minor or major?
Could go either way.... ;D
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Ok...My suggestion is to get started sooner than later. There are always delays in the machine shop. Trust me! If you have the space to keep your engine in and can start pulling it apart then I would do that. IF you're really not sure on how to take the engine apart, then either find a reputable shop near you or a fellow club member now! Planning takes a long time but finding good help takes longer.
For example....will you just buy cams or will you have them re-ground. Big price difference. If you want to save money and have re-grounds cut then you have to ship your cams to them, then they put you in the schedule to do the work, then they ship them back to you. That takes time. If I were you, I would start planning soon because building a stroker or whatever other than stock does take some time and thought.
We're here to help you for ideas. It'll kinda be like we're all building our motors again the way we "shoulda, coulda, woulda, but didn't!" LMAO
Let the building BEGIN!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Thanks so much Ralph - that kinda encouragement is awesome! ;D
I've got some great info from bmwman91 and I was thinking about a performance head: VAC motors has 3 and MM has theirs. If I went that route it would simplify things considerably build-wise and the cost is acceptable. As for the bottom, I really want some low-end torque and quick acceleration. Its all about how fast I can accelerate to the speed limit!!! So, stroker and light flywheel setup... Thats where it gets interesting... Also, I need headers and a whole new exhaust system. Not sure about the intake side of things yet. Advice and guidance needed all-around basically!!!
Im up in Canada and tuner shops are not exactly on every corner but there are some. I figure it will be the end of next summer before the car is ready to accept the engine and the tuning can begin - there's no rush for me as its a summer car only and I know she wont be ready for next summer (paint = $$) :'(
As for the engine it now sits in my dads big double car garage, along with my e46, which has slept all winter... There's absolutely no space at my house for it but I may be buying my dads house very soon - gonna need that big garage for this rebuild!! Anyways if that happens, yes I will have space to work on the engine....
Thoughts??
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Ok... you need to contact either Barrie at Midnight Tuning or Mark D and talk to them about what you're doing and see if they will help you with a tune. They are both in Canada! Maybe they can help point you in the direction of a good machine shop? See who they use for their clients.
You can port your own head and let the machine shop do the rest with your valves and guides, skimming the head while checking for cracks, decking your block with front timing case cover and boring your block. You tell them: Take this piston and make it fit in this hole! Hahaha
That's where all your math comes in. New pistons? S50 86mm? S52 86.4mm? S54 87mm? GSR rods? M47 crank? M44 HG 1.74mm or 2.04mm? With AFM and stock throttle body I wouldn't get crazy with cams. Custom 250/250 with a stroker should be great for everyday driving with grunt down low. I have ITB's and decided to stay torquey for street use.
Inj's? This is a fun topic even without a stroker motor! LMAO I have 24#'s and the car is over-fueled so no issues there. The E30M3 2.3L ran with 22.5# inj's for 192HP, upgrades to 238HP was still safe. The S50/52 inj upgrade is the 24# and it makes 300HP safely. So my point is the 24# inj's are plenty for a M42 stroker. Hmmm...4 hole disc or ? Not going there! Hahaha.
Keep your 4.10 diff! More highway driving then maybe 3.91. M20 lightened FW from 19lbs to 11-12lbs with M42 ring gear is perfect and easy with a stock 325 clutch set up.
The stock header may just be good enough. Don't be so hasty to get rid of that until you do some research. You may need to increase the center section to a 2.5" and free flow muffler but the stock headers flow pretty well. My E30M3 headers flowed perfect at 238HP and stock was 192HP. So a 46HP increase on stock headers with no issues. The M3 Headers I run now are stock EvoIII and making 320+HP. Not even Gruppe N or DTM headers or anything special. Close to a 100HP gain and all is good. Changing headers may cause you to lose a lot of torque and possible HP!
Isn't this fun?!!
Bmwman91 has some great info on a possible max output for the AFM before you run into a breathing issue on the M42. Maybe he'll chime in for you. But if you go standalone.......well then the sky's the limit for torque and breathing and HP and FUN!
YOU have some research to do......get started!
Next we can talk about single or double row timing chain.............
Cheers,
~Ralph
PS Not saying what I woulda, coulda, shoulda done! LOL
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Holy Sh*T!!!
Man I've got some work and reading ahead of me!!! ;D
I've looked up midnight tuning - facebook website.. I will contact them when I have an idea which direction to go, they seem to be in Ottawa, only 1.5hrs away... You've dealt with them? Maybe I can get my e46 tuned first.... ::)
As for the head - wouldn't all that work cost close to what a performance head would cost? Or would the performance head make me lose torque down low? Is that why you don't think its a good idea? I could go either way - just curious as to your opinion on that..
As for boring the block - seems like an absolute necessity.
Pistons? New of course. Con rods, lighter and stronger is better. Is there a "kit" that comes with pistons and a recommended crank? You know, the KISS principle is how I've stayed alive this long... :P
Crank - M47 vs M44, what are the pros and cons of each? The M47 is way more involved isn't it?
Cams: Custom 250/250, this would have to be fine-tuned to what I decide upon for the bottom end right? Man, I have a feeling that's a dumb question... :-[
Diff: Mine is a 3.73 LSD, not a 4.10. Will be having it rebuilt. Is that a good match with a stroker?
Intake: Its all Chinese to me right now.... :o
And yes this is fun!!
;)
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Where are you at in Canada? If you are closer to Toronto I know some BMW people there who could recommend good machine shops and tuning solutions.
I know Astro is a popular machine shop in Toronto if that works for you.
It all depends on your goals and budget which is the best route to take. I find taking a budget minded approach and just doing it right puts plenty of smiles on your face.
A stroker based on M44 is a good budget option and is much cheaper than the M47 based stroker. Personally I would spend the majority on tuning and a nice set of cams.
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Thats great info - thanks! I was curious about the m44 vs.m47 crank...
Im in Montreal. About 6hrs to Toronto. :(
Budget-wise what do you reckon this will cost with what you've read?
I figure on 5-6000$. But as long as my wife doesnt know, I can go a little higher... :P
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Barrie is a list member here and yes I have had correspondence with him in the past on tuning. I believe he is in Ottawa? That's even closer to you...just a hop, skip and a jump! LOL
Check out Mark D'Sylva too...he's in Toronto and is a list member as well.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/mdsylva/
When I mentioned doing your own head that was to save you money. The performance head is not a problem with a stroker. Even on a stock motor it's ok as long as you don't port it too heavily because then you'll lose the low end. Here's the secret.....shhh...The power is in the head!
I don't know of any kit out there for the M42 stroker motor.
I'm sure the M44 crank is probably way cheaper to get your hands on, but I'm not sure what is involved in making it work. The M47 crank is minimal work: cut the snout down to fit the crank gear, new crank bolt and spacer plus adding a second keyway. Pretty straight forward, just added labor. The difference is the stroke which I think is 83.5mm for the M44 and 88mm for the M47. You can also lighten the crank by having the counterweights cut, well.....that's what I did since the M47 is a few lbs heavier than the stock crank.
If you're getting bored just stop me....
No question is ever dumb if you can learn something from it ;D The cams are really up to you. In my opinion if it's a street motor I wouldn't go too radical because you want your power band to be spread out over the rev range. Big cams can make big power for the dyno sheet but it will be in the upper end of the rev range and minimal down low which is great for the track but "eh" for the street. The smaller but still aggressive cams can make great power but usually over the entire rev range. There is more to a cam then just duration. You also have to think about lift. The Schrick 256* set up is based for the stock motor. I'm sure it wakes that motor up quite well. I never had the chance to just do cams and see what it was like. I chose the 250/250 on the recommendation of a tuner that designed those cams for my stroker with 10.8 compression. Not over the top but more aggressive than the Schricks and great for all around street driving and power up to 7,500 rpm. But some little birdie told me that I could probably get 8,000 rpm out of my motor.
Just an aside.... all cams are different in feel. I had a set of 284/276 Schricks for my E30M3. The power was great, it pulled hard, and you knew definitively when the cams kicked in. It was like having an on/off switch. My description of that would be "raw power" which was intense but great. I switched to a Dbilas 296 with the Schrick 284 and what a difference! The power was more linear and you couldn't feel the "on/off" cam feeling. Then I went to 302/296 and it's the same linear feeling. Very deceiving! LOL. I only give these examples because I've learned a lot over the years with trial and error and what better way than with the S14 8) So....driving with my M42 stroker now and not even completely tuned, I have that same feeling of "sneaky" linear power. It's definitely very deceiving until you look at the speedometer. LOL Personally, for an every day driver, it's the way to go for me.
The diff....I know some on here run the 3.73 on a stock motor. Great for highway MPG, less revs on the motor but the acceleration takes a lil bit more umpf to get going. If you were to find a close ratio transmission, then that would probably be an intense ride but the better option at that point might be a 3.46 I personally have the MM trans with an E30M3 4.10 and hitting 60+mph in second is not a problem. It's really your choice again of how you'll be driving the car. Some also run the 4.27 with lots of grunt down low but your top end cruising might be like a '73 2002 M10 motor with a 4 speed and 3.45 diff wishing you had the 5 speed conversion...Hahaha The diff really depends on your motor build and your transmission. It's the easiest to swap and see what you really like according to your driving habits.
Bored yet?......
Intake....Well......we all know what everyone wants with this topic! You can pretty much take any ITB set up and retro fit it on the car if you have time and money. My next motor will either have 45mm slide throttles or S54 ITB's on it. If MM can get 205HP out of the stock TB then....who knows what ITB's will do on a stroker. I know that Dbilas claims 19-20HP for their ITB's and tuning. I'm sure that's pretty accurate once you start adjusting fuel and timing. But that doesn't mean take all claimed HP gains from all your bolt ons and that's your new HP number...NOT! Chipping the car alone can net you 12-15HP on a stock motor. You need to really talk with Mark or Barrie and have a game plan because they will give you real world numbers.
Spend as much as you can but save a bunch for tuning since that is going to make the whole difference. There is nothing like having expert tuners like Mark or Barrie getting you as much power as possible and safely. Another aside....my tuner for my S14 found an additional 8HP at the wheels by adjusting the angle of my throttle plates! How cool is that.....
Having fun yet?! :o
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Getting bored??? Are you nuts.. this is awesome! Learning about this stuff is why I decided to do this resto in the first place!!
And thank God for you guys, easily the most helpful bunch anywhere... 8)
I have no objections about porting my own head - just have to learn how its done first... man being a noob sucks... LOL
So which route to go? M44 or M47? Where would I get my hands on an M47 crank? Dealer sourced part not withstanding...
Would one make more low-down power than the other? Seems an M44 crank, being a direct "descendant" of the m42 would be a
better fit no? But again, what do I know... :-X
Im open to both but would like to know more what the primary differences between them are...
As for the cams I TOTALLY agree. A nice spread over the power band. Lets be honest - city driving is all about low down torque. I wont track this car - that's for rich people and their M3's ::) - but I do want to drive the hell out of it everywhere I go...and that means torque. I want whiplash everytime I leave a stop sign. And Im 42, not 18... We all age but some of us don't get any older... hehehe
So then your top recommendation is 250/250? From which supplier?
As for the transmission - as far as I know its the original, a Getrag 240, but as my car is a January '91, that means it would be an E34 518i unit. I have not found anything but a serial number on the unit so I can be 100% on that one. I never drove the car so I don't even know what condition its in... When you say close ratio, which models would fit the bill?
As for the diff, I've seen many 4.10s on ebay but man Im leary of buying one.. Who knows what shape they are in? If I do have mine rebuilt its about 800$ so I better be sure before I commit... Mine is the BIG LSD diff and I've read the smaller ones are actually better... what's a guy to do??
As for ITBs Ive read pros and cons regarding those. I do know thats too involved for now. But, when you sell me your M3 I'll let you know how I feel about them.... ;D
So, where does this all start parts wise - crank I imagine - then con rods and pistons?
Enough typing, I have to go work on the car, if I ever want to start on the engine.... ;)
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The M44 crank is a drop in replacement for the M42 since it was designed to be used with the same engine family. The M47 crank is from a diesel and must have custom machining to work properly.
The reason people go through the trouble to fit the M47 crank is it has a longer stroke. A longer stroke creates more low end torque. The M44 will have more toque than the M42 crank, but not as much as the M47.
Choose what crank you want to use first and that will help decise what pistons and rods you need.
The M47 cranks can be sourced from Europe, or bought new at the dealer. M44 cranks can be found almost free, M47 cranks cost a pretty penny.
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Great explanation - thanks!
Looking on ebay I see m47 cranks as low as 200$... I imagine I should only buy new right??
Now the question becomes: how great is the difference in torque? (assuming similar setups)
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You have to make sure its an M47 unit and not an M47N. The M47N will have a shorter snout and have a stroke greater than 88mm.
Otherwise, Id get a used crank if its available. Just have the machine shop check it out before using it and make sure there is no unusual wear. The machine shop needs to modify the snout of the crank anyway so you could just have them inspect it then.
Its a nice way to save a few hundred bucks!
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Good to know. I haven't decided on one vs. the other yet...
Oh, and I just bought my parents house like 5 minutes ago, big double garage!! That will screw up my timetable for my build this summer but make working on the car and engine way easier...
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Wait...... what......Oh no......What's that?
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That looks NUTS!!!
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Yes make sure its the M47 and not the M47N. They look totally different like Nick said. M47 is the way to go....
I had my cams cut at Dyno Spot Racing in Cali. Talk to Dick Chiang. Don't mention my name....Hahaha.. JK
http://www.dynospotracing.com
1798 Angela St, San Jose, CA 95125
(408) 271-9800 or maybe (408) 885-9988
Email:info@dynospotracing.com
I bought my crank new from the dealer $800 plus a $100 core charge. PN 11 21 2 247 514/reman. Get the remanufactured with bearing shells which is that 514 number. The 515 is a new crank which is probably way more money.
Stick with the stock transmission. No need to get all fancy and try to find and fit a close ratio for daily driving. If you want an upgrade then MM has the sport for our car which has larger bearings, more beefy, and a different gearing so one can hit 60mph in 2nd with 7100rpm. I think. Email them.....hahahaha
The diffs are small 168, to medium 188, to large 210. Most of us go from the stock 168 to either the M3 188 4.10 or 325 188 3.73
The smaller ones are lighter but not sure how they'll handle all that torque from the stroker.....
They wouldn't have given all the real E30M3's ITB's and the Euro M3's ITB's if they didn't make a difference. Notice how all the US M3 models got the single TB and hydraulic lifters and less compression, and ...... The Canadians got the good stuff with all the Euro models but noooo Not in the US!
Everything is for sale...for the right price ;D
Decide on a crank and work your way up to the -.15mm sticking out of the block first. Then you can think about head work and A-N and exhaust and tuning......
Congratulations on the House!!!! Now maybe you'll have room for my M3 when you buy it? LOL
Well.... Nuts is good right? Lots of work.....Did I mention 33mm buckets and 6mm valves? Oh...I probably forgot those. Ooops... ::)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Ralph, you're gonna bankrupt me before your done.... ;D
Hey thanks on the house - I cant possibly be the first guy whose bought a house so he can have more space to restore his E30 right?? :o
Btw, Im printing this info to keep it all handy.. Hopefully the move doesn't set me more than 1 month behind on the build... :-\
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Headers to the left.....headers to the right.....
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ooops...the computer just happened to send the 33mm S52 cam tray pic too....hmmmm ::)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Jeez, and I thought PORN was addictive... ;D
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Hey youre smart - any ideas how to move this mess to my new home about 1mile away:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/19/gv3e.jpg)
Aren't you in New Jersey... hmmm what you doing this weekend??...hahaha
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That's you and 3 big friends lifting it up and putting it onto your friends trailer after you have fed them pizza and beers....
Now.... Is that your, you're or youre smart? LMAO ;D
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These cars are surprising light once stripped down to where you have it now. I loaded this myself using two jack stands, one car dolly and an engine hoist.
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Keith and Norm I prefer my cars on wheels thanks guys!
Norm congratulations on the house mate! Did you serious bye it just for the bigger garage?
Warsteiner have you modified s50 cam trays for m42. I've herd you could do it for the lighter lifters but never seen it done! Pity those manifolds are for lhd!
Cheers rohan
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Yes, those are the modified S52 cam trays.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Man, I forget to check in here for a few days and BOOM this thread fills up with all sorts of good crazy ideas.
For reference, the cams in my engine are 272/258 and the power feels very linear. Multiple friends have commented that "it just keeps pulling!" and it pulls smooth from 3500RPM onward. Below that it has torque too which is nice to have around town. Personally I think that the bump in displacement to 2.1L is a big part of that (as they say, there's no replacement for displacement!). As Ralph mentioned, cam selection can almost feel like a crapshoot and it looks like hot cams will make for a more balanced powerband in some applications than more conservative ones.
Ralph, when you start looking into slide throttles make sure to post about it. I have been thinking about using some for YEARS because I feel like they have some advantages over butterflies, but I keep reading that they are notorious for sticking open which has dampened my enthusiasm. lol I know, I am a sissy.
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Let's see, addressing other stuff mentioned above...
I am still running the stock AFM. MM is of the opinion that it is not really hurting anything and that swapping in a MAF might gain me a few ponies at the top end. As long as I am running the stock ECU I am not going to worry about it too much because the stock ECU can't even fully take advantage of the improvement in throttle response that a MAF can give.
Injectors...MM said that the stockers can reliably work up to about 185bhp if I remember correctly. They have me running 24# 4-pintle ones now (0 280 150 461) and if anything I think I run a little rich. That's more due to the tune that MM sent me, and Ralph reminded me at least once that any custom built engine really needs tuning on a dyno to get properly dialed in so it is probably because I haven't gotten around to that. Additional thanks are due to Ralph for advising me against the 155 series Bosch injectors that apparently have an issue where they stick open/leak!
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I'm wondering if we should change this topic to something more searchable on the web and archives like Building a M42 Stroker? What do you guys think?
Cheers,
~Ralph
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I dunno, I think I like the new title for this thread.
But yeah, at the rate things are going this thread is going to need a perma-link in the reference section. The thread where you tabulated all the lifter weights also needs a link.
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Note:
Title changed to reflect the bad influence of certain members on this site... :P
Once the build begins, I will really try to document it so that others can benefit from my many mistakes. I will also start a new thread at that point. God help us.
Darky: yes I bought the house for the build. Duh! Oh, that and 3 kids who keep insisting I'm their father... ???
Keflaman: Dude, you're strong.....what you doing this weekend??? hahaha
As you all can imagine, moving is gonna keep me busy over the next 2 months, Im aiming for May 25th in the new place but I will try to get the 318 there within a week... Pics to follow at some point...
Oh and Warsteiner said he sell me his M3, cheap too.... ;)
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Now I see a different topic but before it was MM M42 which is totally off topic now since he'll be doing it on his own. So in that case...
Here's my take on camming an engine. I'm not an engineer or a crazy car guy...just trial and error and talking to people who actually do design cams for specific parameters for engines.
The profile that I chose should get me close to what I wanted without having to weld up the cam. Basically, they cut what they call a 250/250 but for better comparisons, I would recommend looking at duration of lift above 0.050" or greater where flow starts to occur. This cam registers 222 degrees of duration at 0.050" lift versus the Schrick 256's 215 degrees and the MM 258's 224 degrees. Running this 250/250 combo will get the most powerband out of the car without having to weld up and nitride the cam. Usually when offsetting the cam timing greatly, you're going to lose somewhere if you find any gains depending on your build. A cam that makes little power below 4500rpm could mean LOUSY gas mileage and that lots of people are gonna beat you off the line as you try to get past 5K. Using a 250/250 combo will give you a very strong low and midrange powerband but yet let you pull strong to about 7500rpm. You can get a cam that pulls to 8000rpm, but I wonder if the power is flat or whether it is still climbing. Those types of cams seem to pull forever but the car never feels like it is pulling hard but just high, no grunt! This 250/250 cam set will make it so you don't have to always drive like an a$$hole to feel fast, hahahaha! And I'm not saying that there aren't other combos that will work for other compressions or displacement, it's all about matching parts for the build from the top to the bottom and vice versa! This set was designed to optimize my set up at 10.8:1 for daily driving and will probably also work for an array of other engines as well.
So one should really look at lift and duration to be related. If you have a lot of lift and no duration, you will have a lobe that looks like an arrowhead. That lobe will beat the heck out of your valvetrain and eventually the cam itself. This 250 cam is similar to what Schrick did. They use a 0.408" (10.36mm) and I used a 0.405" (10.29mm). The 250 is a bit more radical though as there is more duration at 0.050", 222 versus 215. With a long duration and high lift cam, one would need 11.25:1 and above to extract a decent idle and power up top. I didn't want to have that high of a compression engine for my daily driver so, these cams end up being perfect for my 10.8:1 compression and for that fact, they don't have to be welded up which is a whole other ball game.
So who wants lots of compression? Who wants lots of Horsepower? Who wants lots of cam timing? Well... we all sorta want that all don't we? But there is a trade off. Big Peak numbers and lots of compression due to lots of cam can be misleading. You don't want an engine that's very peaky.
As an example: So who votes for 220RWHP?? How about 240RWHP?? Or the Big Kahuna 280RWHP??? Look at the comparison of these S14 motors (Not mine). You don't want the high power one. LOL You will definitely be left in the dust......
Looks like I should build another one maybe with _ _ _ _ _ / _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Answer: S L I D E / T H R O T T L E S
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OH WAIT.... THERE ARE MORE!
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Bmwman91... Not sure if there was just a bad batch of 155's but they were definitely recalled because I had them in my hand ready to go on the motor and had to return them. So everyone.....That doesn't mean you can't use 155's it was just a particular number inj. BUT.... please use the correct ones that actually have the proper clips and don't shimming or whatever to make them fit. Or carry a fire extinguisher with you at all times in that case... ::)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Glad to be recognised as a bad influence, although my engine is very "budget."
I can't compete with Ralph!
You can find info on my engine by searching my username. For some reason I can't find it though??
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Do you have those ready to go Warsteiner?? They look insane!!
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I've been watching this thread grow, very inspirational. I can't wait to see how far this goes.
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The VAC 269/269 street cams seem like a good choice. Catcams has good cam profiles which are pretty aggressive at the higher lifts compared to a Schrick sport cam profile.
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Do you have those ready to go Warsteiner?? They look insane!!
Norm....They're ready but waiting. i had tried to fit them as is but my brake booster was getting in the way. I didn't want to get into changing all that at the time so I put the Dbilas ITB's in instead. LOL
Nick...I'm not competing. Hahah Norm started this whole thing! But we should all get some dyno sheets of all of our different builds and see where these M42's really come alive.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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my 2 cents:
- M44 crank: might be easier to get good rods/pistons (I mean with less machining) than M47
- among with engine set-up you have to decide now which engine management you're going to use. I keep on saying MS3-MS3X extension, go MAP and get rid of MAF/AFM to end all discussions on which is best (answer: none of them). oh! and get total control over your engine!!
- if you want to keep your 3.73LSD you can consider E36 M42/M44 gearbox, is it what warsteiner call close ratio gb. it will be a shorter ratio than E30 gearbox + S4.10 and even may be too short for a stroked engine or for your needs...
actually I would start a M42 rebuild from a M42 E36 unit so that you have the improved timing case, serpentine accessory belt, knock detection sensors, can use E36 gearbox bolt on, etc... just need to use E30 intake mani and oil sump
bon courage!
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Yes Vince... that is is exactly what I meant about the close ratio and the differential. It will probably be too short for a stroker and everyday driving. Almost like using an E30 gearbox with a 4.45 diff. or the M10 4 speed days on the highway. Hahahaha
Cheers,
~Ralph
PS...ok! another pic....
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God dammit, you guys are a bad influence (in a good sort of way) you make me want to build one too!
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My car has a ZF320 trans and a 188 3.73 LSD. Noticably more pickup than my old G240 and 188 4.10 LSD setup.
If I were to do it over I would just buy a set of steeper gears for the 188 diff and do that. Much easier :)
This is an exciting time with quite a few decent builds going on and being documented. I need to redyno my car with the standalone installed now. Its definitely more capable of supplying the demands of the 272deg cams. I have stock throttle body thats just connected to a filter. Throttle response is pretty dang insane. Not sure I would gain much from ITBs actually.
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I am not sure if I am worthy to be called out in the title as one of the contributors here...I pussed out and spent a bunch of money to have professionals do all the real work for me. Everyone else here seems to have earned their stripes! It will be fun to get some dyno pulls documented. I am half afraid to go do it because if the power is nowhere near the quoted amount on MM's brochure, I am going to feel even more like a money-burning fool lol. I blame Febi for all of it with his crazy 2006 adventure at MM!
Ralph, are those custom-machined throttles? Mmmm slide throttles. I have always wanted to work out a setup with dual-slides so that the opening starts in the center rather than along one of the sides. It might not provide any real benefit in terms of mixing, but it seems like it might. Then again, race teams would do it that way if it did (I would assume).
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I have to chime in and say bmwman91 you are HUGELY responsible... sorry but its true.
Between the resto, rebuild and the house I bought (with the big *ss double garage) to get all this done this will surely be one of the most expensive E30 rebuilds ever. ;D
I started moving car parts over to the new garage uh, home today - think Im gonna paint it first, that will be cool.... Cant wait to get my hands dirty in that garage!! My apologies for the delay this will cause.... :-\
my 2 cents:
- M44 crank: might be easier to get good rods/pistons (I mean with less machining) than M47
- among with engine set-up you have to decide now which engine management you're going to use. I keep on saying MS3-MS3X extension, go MAP and get rid of MAF/AFM to end all discussions on which is best (answer: none of them). oh! and get total control over your engine!!
- if you want to keep your 3.73LSD you can consider E36 M42/M44 gearbox, is it what warsteiner call close ratio gb. it will be a shorter ratio than E30 gearbox + S4.10 and even may be too short for a stroked engine or for your needs...
actually I would start a M42 rebuild from a M42 E36 unit so that you have the improved timing case, serpentine accessory belt, knock detection sensors, can use E36 gearbox bolt on, etc... just need to use E30 intake mani and oil sump
Thats interesting. Not sure how much the mods would cost vs. buying a junkyard unknown engine....
Will I have to switch engine management systems? Or would that just be nice??
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actually I would start a M42 rebuild from a M42 E36 unit so that you have the improved timing case, serpentine accessory belt, knock detection sensors, can use E36 gearbox bolt on, etc... just need to use E30 intake mani and oil sump
Thats interesting. Not sure how much the mods would cost vs. buying a junkyard unknown engine....
Will I have to switch engine management systems? Or would that just be nice??
that is assuming you're going standalone, otherwise, yes and no, you can stick to e30 management with some tweaking (if I'm correct) or use E36 management with some tinkering but there are no benefits (apart from saving $$$) using either ones. from MY point of view.
regarding the junkyard engine you would be rebuild, eh! you're gong to rebuild it anyway!!! ;)
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thebrelon: I will have to look into that but knowing me, I would want to keep the original engine... just seems right...
Good news! Found a good machine shop here in Montreal for engine rebuilds. Looks like a pretty big place and they've been around for a looong time. Computer controlled machinery. And they seem to do everything, flywheel lightening and cranks too.
So...
Can anyone spell 2.1L ?
;D
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And spell ITB,... do it Norm, the giggle factor from the sound alone is worth it!
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PS...ok! another pic....
staged fuel injection: why is that?
to be able to idle the engine properly I guess?
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Idle is not so big problem. The problem still exist with atomisation and injectors which are further from intake valves provides better fuel/air mix, but in case ITB is closed you will spray all the fuel on ITB ;)
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so injectors after ITBs are for idle/almost closed itbs conditions and the one before are for open ITBs/WOT. but its not due to injectors size and engine needs as it is usually the case.
thanks !
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so injectors after ITBs are for idle/almost closed itbs conditions and the one before are for open ITBs/WOT. but its not due to injectors size and engine needs as it is usually the case.
thanks !
Vise versa because nobody cares about atomisation (except green peace) on idle. You need perfect atomisation during WOT. To mix air with fuel you need time and during WOT and high rpm you do not have so much time if the injectors are close to intake valves. The minimum open time for injector is small enough to run our engine with 800cc/min and bigger without any problem. Atomization will not be perfect but good enough. I know people running 2000cc/min on 2500cc turbo M50 engine.
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understood! ;D
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Bmwman91: Those are 45mm custom slides that I had made from the guy that used to work for Schnitzer and built all of Ravaglia’s engines back in the day. I have seen your CAD renditions of the throttles you’re talking about awhile back. I’m guessing that the race teams would already be using them if they would make a difference. Maybe they just haven’t thought of it and you’re on to something? Lol
PS. this thread seems to be all your fault….LOL
MLM: I sent you a PM awhile back…lol
Norm: well….where to start? 2.1L? How many cc’s is that cuz i’m at 2045cc so I’m a 2.045L . I think if you are above 2050cc you can call yourself a 2.1L..LMAO You’d better go with the M47 and at least 86.4mm S52 pistons to put you in the 2064cc or “2.1L” group…..
romkasponka is right about the atomization for the extra inj’s.
Here’s some info that I got from PLek about the slide throttles. This particular set up has to be tuned with Alpha N. Reason being that there is no vacuum to be taken from all 4 cylinders individually like the ITB’s. When running these slides you need inj’s in the 300-550cc range depending on the size of your engine. Now, he didn’t make clear what the Secondary injector size was. But on the single stage he recommended the Volvo 2300 turbo inj which I’ve researched to be the 0280150357 at about 294cc’s but you would need to change the wiring since that is a low impedance inj. I have these inj’s running on my S14 and have had them flowed at over 300cc’s. The equivalent to to that in a high impedance is the 0280150785 at about 308cc’s. He actually said that tuning the slides is not that difficult. But here is the kicker… The fuel pressure needs to be at 4 Bar minimum. So your 300cc turns into about 350cc’s. More is better when it comes to fuel on these and you can always tune out the excess.
I’m pretty sure he was talking about a stock motor when he said running the Schrick 256 cams and slides you can tweak 170HP at the crank out of it.
He said the slides work differently than the ITB’s. The slides need more fuel injected faster and directly and using a small injector isn’t going to cut it. They’re normally used for track use and using them on the street may not be practical and jerky. LOL
But we have a guy in Germany running slides on a street 2.7L S14 and no issues whatsoever. I think it’s all in how you tune it. I do believe he is still on the stock ECU as well for the Timing but runs a piggyback set up for the Fuel. He does have access to a dyno and is in tight with BMW Motorsport so he has lots of resources.
So I’m thinking we should all get slides and test them out at various stages. Who’s in?…..hahaha
And no Norm I’m not buying them for everyone! LOL
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Well I'll be happy with 2.0L... Im leaning towards the M44 crank as we havent quantified the advantage of the M47 route...just saying...
Ralph: ITB's, slides...you guys are so far ahead of me here... why don't you come over and help me paint my new garage first... :P
;D ;D ;D
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As I know if you run very wild cams you cannot use vacuum because it is very unstable/pulsating and even if you will make restrictor in sense line you will get signal which will be delayed and not so usable. It is better to use just atmospheric pressure corrections and alpha N. Slide throttles are better because when they are WOT there is nothing in the way of airflow.
For my engine I am thinking to go for 145mm (in standard engine they was fitted to m52b20tu as I remember) rods (probably pauter) and m42 or m44 crank with custom supertech or JE two rings piston. In this case you can make piston shorter and lighter and longer rod.
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Well I'll be happy with 2.0L... Im leaning towards the M44 crank as we havent quantified the advantage of the M47 route...just saying...
Look at the MM brochure: http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdf/M42-Engine-Booklet.pdf
The engine using the 88mm M47 crank is making 15 lb-ft with more radical cams that will reduce the torque. Its clear the 88mm crank adds some good grunt to the engine. Unfortunately I am not aware of a comparison that has just the 88mm crank with lighter duty cams to compare directly with the 83.5mm crank engine.
As far as the engine management goes, you can use anything that will allow you to reach your goal. One method has only a few people who can adjust your calibration, the other can be adjusted by multiple people. That's how I view it anyway. The key is to figure out who you want to do the tuning, and ask them what their preference is. You will ALWAYS get better results that way.
If you are interested in doing it yourself, standalone is the only good path at the moment. Going that route requires you to have a good amount of knowledge, or be willing to learn a lot. If you want things to be more of a plug in and go....the tuned stock ECU is your best bet.
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Here is a link to the thread where I kind of documented my build. If you search my username on E30tech you can find the longer build thread.
http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=14777.15
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Ok, It's time Norm! You should build a really healthy M42 Stroker or , I'll have to race you for pinks against your M3 with my M42! LMAO
So, just a quick update on my car and I would love to find that Dyno thread that I think Matt started, but I can't seem to find it :-\
Displacement 2045cc Bore 86mm x Stroke 88mm
Compression Ratio 10.9:1
Horsepower 212 @ 6875
Torque 163 @ 4175 172 @ 5950
The torque band is pretty flat from 4,000 to 6,800rpm. I'd say thats a very useable power band. Rev limit is 7,200
Or you could just buy my M3 and big the king of the hill with 300+HP!! LOL
Up to you 8)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Warsteiner, have you got a build thread for me to have a read through?
Cheers
Sion
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Not yet Sion. It's a really cool build and I've done a lot of things that people say can't be done or won't or might not work. So I'll get some info together and post it, but in the meantime you can ask all the questions you want 8)
This may also help get Norm's list together for the parts he'd like to use on his build :P
Cheers,
~Ralph
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So, just a quick update on my car and I would love to find that Dyno thread that I think Matt started
Cheers,
~Ralph
Tis here
http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18772.0
Reference forum in hindsight was prob not the best place for it..
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My main worries at the moment are what to do about oil pressure ie do i need to run higher oil pressure being a competition engine? Different oil pump?
Have you done anything with water pump?
I personally am cheating and sending engine away to be built due to it being for competition use i dont want to cut corners etc.
Anybody know what valves mm run? I know they run 6mm stems but they dont mention 34/35 inlet valves
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Hi Ralph
212 hp from 10.9:1 2050 cm m42 is huge! Well done
What valves, inlet manifold and exhaust are you using?
Cheers Rohan
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Ralph,
Now I get your text I just read! ;D
Was at work this weekend...
Wish I were still planning a big build for the M42 but if I go that route I will have to stall the project for a good long while to pay for it all...
Anyone willing to donate parts?? ::)
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Thanks Matt, I knew you had posted it somewhere.
Sion, I think MM runs standard valves with 6mm stems. That's what I have as well. I used the standard oil and water pump. My block had the anti drain back valve already installed in it. Not sure If I should have gone to a larger oil pump since I went down in size on the Lifters to 33mm.
Rohan,
Valves were 6mm stems with standard 33mm/int and 30.5mm/exh. The flow characteristics are still intact with stock valving. This is just my experience with E30M3 stuff. My M3 still has stock valves as well and making over 300HP.
Inlet is Dbilas 45mm ITB's with their plenum. AFM is removed but STOCK airbox is used. bmwman91 is correct that the stock airbox flows plenty! I had tested some supercar airbox with a fancy intake horn that was lying around at the dyno shop to see if there was an air restriction while tuning. That was a big NO. LOL. There was more than enough with the original stock box and paper filter.
Now the exhaust is an interesting one. I'm running a larger custom header 44.45mm. I can't remember what the stock header is. I then had a transition piece made with the O2 sensor which mates up to dual 1.75" (45mm) pipes with dual cats which then mates up to a dual pipe SuperSprint muffler. The exhaust is quiet but when you step on it, it has a nice tone along with the ITB's. The exhaust after the O2 sensor is all E30M3!!
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Norm, I may just have to sell you my motor then ::)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Have you had any porting done on the head. Im surprised by the power seeing as you have standard size valves. Im looking at standard inlet due to regulations.
Ive nevered of the oil drain back valve. How can i check if i have one? Ma 4 block
Cheers
Sion
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Yes Sion the head is ported. The big thing with flow and valves is when you get into the higher rpm ranges and higher lift cams. It will move the entire power band upward but will make more power. I was only building a bullet proof street motor. There can be a lot of power gained before moving up in valve size. I'm not sure where the cut off is.
The anti drain back valve is called a non-return valve and is located between cyl 2 and 3.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=AF91-EUR-02_1989_E30_BMW_318is&diagId=11_4380#11111734667 (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=AF91-EUR-02_1989_E30_BMW_318is&diagId=11_4380#11111734667)
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Great work Ralph.
If u r bored, throw the stock exhaust back on and report back with the dyno results. ;D
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Hey 1998ccc,
That won't happen.LOL Too much time, effort and money invested in the M3 exhaust and the car is now tuned.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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Yes Vince... that is is exactly what I meant about the close ratio and the differential. It will probably be too short for a stroker and everyday driving. Almost like using an E30 gearbox with a 4.45 diff. or the M10 4 speed days on the highway. Hahahaha
Cheers,
~Ralph
PS...ok! another pic....
Was having a look through this thread and saw your post warsteiner. Im considering sticking a cop conversion on my engine before it goes on. Any reason why you haven't? (Im hoping the image of your engine is attached to your quote)
Also what itbs are these?
Sion
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Sion,
Yes I have the COP kit on my car from Rob.
Those are Dbilas 45mm ITB's.
Cheers,
~Ralph
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ah right ok.
the pic of the engine in the post I quoted had an engine with yellow plug leads?
I think i may aswell go for cop, everyone else seems to.
cheers
Sion