M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: pepe m42 on January 04, 2007, 01:08:29 PM
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I ADD SOME LINKS FOR HOW TO ADJUST T I M I N G!
http://www.318is.de/docu_schrauber/Steuerkette_M42.pdf
http://www.318is.de/docu_schrauber/Steuerkette_M44.pdf
http://www.318is.de
hi guys, im in a shit now so i write here because i could use this forum always , when i had any problems.
this problem is a dont know for sure problem. So i dont accept from you guys to tell me what is this, but if you have some thing to say , please do so....
anyway i was about to do the oilpan remove and tighten those loosy screws.
But before that i was on the higway and i was going on a veryvery uphill around 180km/h(over100miles) the gas pedal was on the floor and i was kind of killing it, i guess:( mr M42 didnt like it. it did like a miss fire on one cillinder and then i felt the engine was weak, so i turned of the engine. i stoped. no oil leak no oil guage light on, no hot cooling system.... all looked good, so i turnt the key and it did start up, but it was like a flat battery problem because when the starter rolled the engine it went hard but affter a few roll it started up, my battery is new so its totaly ok, so it was feel like the engine is stucked a bit you know like when way to hot and then its just stucks.
affter the start up i heard a noise like a crush crush chrus,(very sad, bad soud)
affter this i had about 40km to get home.
i started to get home like that, and affter a few miles all the noise went away, but the power was less then before.
befor this day a i had a problem like this , just a bit more moderated.
i was going crazzy and the tick tick nois got loud, then it went away. i just sad this because it might related to the today problem.
so i got home from the highway and remowed my oilpan.
all the screw was tight but i found stuff in the oilpan, i made some pictures so it will be easyer to think about it.
3 things i found in the oil pan.
1- a piece, one side of it is like a black hard plastic(kind of) the other side of it is some kind of metal
2- some kind of plastic peaces
3- metal dust, or minced metal
i cleand up in the pan and around as much as i could, and the car is start up good as it before but it has a bit more engine sound, nothing like what's makes you think bad because those loud bad kicking noises went away, but what i mean is tha engine is louder then it was before this problem.
here are the pictures
sorry for my english.......
please write if you know where is this piece came from and every idea i welcome VERY MUCH
THANKS THANKS THANKS
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...looks like chain tensioner rails. I will send you a link.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=11_1191&hg=11&fg=25
item 6 and 14 for starters
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I thought it sounded like the timing case as well, but I'm too newb to pick out the parts exactly. Sheepdog is the master of a torn up case, for better or worse.
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Looks to me like a part of your timingchaintensioner, but I could be wrong.
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You need to tear down the front of the engine NOW (DO NOT RUN THE ENGINE AGAIN). You will need new timing chain, sprockets, tensioners, idler pulley, seals, and perhaps a timing case. The first noises you heard were probably the tensioner rail going bad. Anything after that is bad news. Might as well do the water pump and thermostat as well, since you'll be right there. It cost me $350 in parts to do it all 2 years ago.
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you are lucky pepe m42 ;)
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How does that stuff make it to the oil pan? There doesn't seem to be a big enough hole anywhere.
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thanks for your ideas, my guess was the chain rail as well, but why would it break??
!!!BMW changed it 1year ago (was expensive) i took it to the bmw because i was in other country far from my garage and had no tools.......
now im in other country again, but i have tools now, so i fortunately can deal with things....
realoem is good stuff im using it too, thanks for the link it was a straight point!
so is it possible that my chain jumped without having problem with valves knock on top of the pistons?
and do you guys think that lots of minced metal is from the timing stuffs?
thanks for the hint to change the thermostat and watter pump, but i just did about a mount ago.
if the rail is broken, then its possible that this why i dont have the same respond when i step on the gass?
anyway thanks for everything! This forum is good and helpful !!! all of you !!!
please write anything you think!
thanks!
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it could be from old tensioner.
But better check evrything.
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How does that stuff make it to the oil pan? There doesn't seem to be a big enough hole anywhere.
look im a do it yourself person but i never opened up the engine so i havent done much job inside the engine.
i changed watter/fuel pump, C.arm bushes, rear weel bearing change, break replace, oil change, the battery behind the guages change, had watter inside problems....... so i usually do what's next, you know.... i guess now is the timing chain rail and who knows what else is the next:D
anyway thanks, because i didnt know how it could fall down to the pan, but now i do.
...and thanks for the responds!!!
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wow from all these threads about timing chains and things going bad I'm afraid of even starting my car now!! :(
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Be afraid, be very afraid!
BAM!
(http://bmw.e30tuner.com/images/my318is/pic/oilfailure/bmw004.jpg)
(http://bmw.e30tuner.com/images/my318is/pic/oilfailure/bmw011.jpg)
Yeah, timing case rebuild time. I am not sure if it would have slipped a tooth though...when I had my timing off by 1 tooth I had pistons hitting valves and it sounded like the diesel from hell! Good luck!
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A word of advice:
Check your cam timing and raalign if necessary then do a compression test to make sure you have no signs of bent valves. If you have bent valves, it might be more cost effective to buy a used motor to put in instead.
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A word of advice:
Check your cam timing and raalign if necessary then do a compression test to make sure you have no signs of bent valves. If you have bent valves, it might be more cost effective to buy a used motor to put in instead.
i found other piece like the one i found in the pan, but this one was stucked so it couldn't fall down to the pan.
Can you tell me how to align the the cam timing, sorry im not an expert but an explanation or a good link will be ok i think.
thanks for that, and i will do the compression test, good idea thanks.
still dont know why did it happened, bmw changed all the stuff chain tensioner sprockets rails everything....
yes one more, when i put the chain rail, befor tightening it, what is the proper adjusting of the space between the chain and the rail. i hope it make sence for you guys. i was reading the e30 rpair manual on the net and it say adjust space between the chain and rail and then tighten the rail...
thanks!!!
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good information here
http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318ismaintenance.html#timingchain
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Bummer.
Very definitely the timing chain guide.
Do not drive it like that.
I am betting bent valves, due to the chain jumping a tooth, which was the "hiccup" you heard and felt. It would explain the loss of power.
Deal with it now or it will only get worse. Be prepared for a lot of work. This is a pretty expensive repair to do on your own, and VERY expensive to pay a dealer to do it.
You will definitely need to change all the rails, sprockets and chain, that is several hundred alone. Also consider changing the timing chain/oil pump housing ($300+) while there, do it now, or do it later... your choice. You may already need to if those chain guides broke a post, which does happen when this sort of thing happens.
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A word of advice:
Check your cam timing and raalign if necessary then do a compression test to make sure you have no signs of bent valves. If you have bent valves, it might be more cost effective to buy a used motor to put in instead.
Very good advice, though the new motor could do the same shortly after, it is waaaay cheaper.
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How does that stuff make it to the oil pan? There doesn't seem to be a big enough hole anywhere.
Look just to the left of the oil pump and lower timing chain guide rail.
Those holes lead to the pan and they are bigger than they look.
(http://www.m42club.com/images/doug/IMG_3886.jpg)
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wow from all these threads about timing chains and things going bad I'm afraid of even starting my car now!! :(
Oh, it will not happen at idle :D
It waits till you are at 5-6k, then grenades the pump. :mad:
This way it does maximum damage.
Pull your valve cover and lower pan. Make sure no bolts are in there, no metal shavings, and look over the timing chain and cam sprockets. The cam sprockets are the slowest to wear, so if they show signs of wear, it is time to think about rebuilding the timing case.
One thing you sort of have to accept with these cars:
They will break.
In this way, they are similar to a Ferrari, you can drive it, and have it break while having fun, or you can leave it in the garage and have it break each time you do drive it. Or you could buy a different car.
The good side is these are cheaper and easier to work on. If you are careful about how you fix things and follow what others have done on here to remedy things, you will get away pretty cheap when even major things happen.
These cars have always had a pretty high maintenance cost (about $1000 per year average). I went in knowing this and by doing things myself it has been about half to 3/4 so far. If it has been a while since something major broke, expect something soon. Just how it is, they were never meant for poor students to own unfortunately.
Drive your car, enjoy it, expect it to break.
No sense in being paranoid or freaking out.
And get AAA.
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I'm a poor college student with no garage lol, it's OK I'll manage somehow! Getting a garage in June and checking all of this out, for now it's getting other repairs (and I'm not gonna drive it in winter anyways). I love my car.
And get AAA.
:D :D :D
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thanks again for all the info....
im going to have a look at it now, jesterday i couldn't unscrew the big 22'' crank bolt, if any good idea.... wwelcome
i was trying BP's e30 web site it say to pot a power bar and turn the engine a few tomes, i did but nothing happened, and i dont think is a good think to do now while there is a mess in around the timing .
i hope the housing is okay, then i can manage the damaged valves from that money.
yes anyway, if i do need to change the valves,than what is reasoable to change its a bit pricey any sugestion....
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF91&mospid=47256&btnr=11_0438&hg=11&fg=25
and how i know what size i will need
any DIY link for changing valves? or any advices?
thanks again!!!
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if your going to reuse the head, then get it checked for cracks and warpage by a machine shop before you start putting any money into it.
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If you have head and timing housing damage, look into another engine.
I got one for $200, though I had to drive 250 miles.
Take that motor, put a new timing chain and sprockets on it (you may not need the guides, saving you even more) and use it. Just use your exhaust and intake, accessories, etc.
Even at $400, this would be a much cheaper alternative.
You figure getting the head fixed and the timing housing alone will crack $400. Those timing chain guides are EXPENSIVE as hell for what they are.
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hi again...
i still have problem to remove the crankshaft bolt, but i removed the head cover and the upper timin chase , the chain looks fine and the two big sprocket has no damage at all, but i couldn't remove the big crank 22'' bolt, so i didn't see what's behind the lower timing chase.
it's might be better to go to a truck shop and get some serious strong stuff to unbolt that bolt.
if any ideas on removing this bolt, just let me know please.
here is a pictures, this how i end up:(
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I've never taken that bolt off and hope I don't have to but I've read that you put the hand brake on nice and tight and use a breaker bar with a pipe slid over the end for leverage and it will come free .
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you would have to have it in gear was well, then it will keep the car from turning over. then put a massive breaker bar on it, unless you have air and a nice big impact gun.
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Never use a torque wrench to loosen a bolt.
You probably destroyed the torque setting so snapping off the front was no loss).
Go buy a cheap 1/2in breaker bar ($20) and put a length of pipe on it for leverage.
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thanks for the info, yes the trouqe wrench was broken allready:) that's why i didnt care to much about it, tomorrow i ll buy a 3/4 thing so hopefuly it wont break...
hey people thanks again to help me out, i was looking back in this forum i found a few other guys with similar problem. and i find a few answer for ''how to loosen the crank bolt.
so thanks to answer me again!
anybody know if its possible to change the name ''just read it please'' to some timing problem or stuffs in the oil pan... becuse then its better for those who will facing with similar problems in the future.
thanks and i ll let you know guys how things are, tomorrow.
THANKS!!!
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Use the starter method. Let your starter loosen the bolt for you. As for having it in gear, you might slip your clutch even with a nice breaker bar as the bolt is tightened above what the stock clutch can grab.
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Use the starter method. Let your starter loosen the bolt for you. As for having it in gear, you might slip your clutch even with a nice breaker bar as the bolt is tightened above what the stock clutch can grab.
but its going to have to first overcome the compression of the engine paired with the grab of the clutch, which i would imagine SHOULD keep it there...? the starter method sounds pretty good to me tho.
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but its going to have to first overcome the compression of the engine paired with the grab of the clutch, which i would imagine SHOULD keep it there...? the starter method sounds pretty good to me tho.
Sometimes, sometimes not. I guess he can always try it the other method first but personally, I would like to just be done with it in a minute rather than an hour struggling with it.
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hi...
i did the starter method, at least 10-15 times, and it didn't work, i dont do it any more because im not happy with cranking the engine since i know what could be under the cover. i talked to a metal fabricator and he will make the tool just like the one it this thread http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1188 i hope it will work out but i have to wait because it will take a few days because the guy who make the tool is kind of bussy....
in a few days i ll drop some more info and pictures about how is everything.
thanks guys!!!
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That tool looks like it would stop a tug boat!!!!! That's gotta work .
Let us know how you make out.
good luck
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guys!!! i dont think i understand this......
finally i could rape the bolt of, that thing works WELL.
i opened the front timing cover and i think every thing is in verry good condition, looks nearly new. As i sad every single thing there (from timing chain to seals) was changed by BMW in Spain (Alicante). i used the car 1 and a half year since that time, i did 45 000 KM. so it should be OK.
so the possibility of what happened is: the old timing rail (what BMW left in there) stayed in the oil pan and it pluged the oil suck up whole in the oil pan and i think the engine stucked for a littlebit because of oil circulation.
i also find a piece of the old rail when i removed the lower timing chase, it was stucked in those wholes where the oil goes down from the timing chase, so BMW did a hell of a S***T job. also im just guessing but still this is the only thing i can possibly think of...
please write me something about what you guys think about this.
please read the first post of this thread and tell me what dou you think about what could be happend.
if the engine has no oil suck up possibility then dou you guys think it could be what happened? ( ......was like it did 2-3 miss fire or some like that, the has a nois like a truck, then it starts up like a low battery problem, then everything was okay............)
if there was a oil problem you guys think i will see it when i check the compression?
THANKS FOR EVERY BODY AND THE FORUM IS COOL!!!!!!
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Inspect crankshaft and con. rods bearings.
Was the low pressure light on when you was driving?
Just clean pipe screen and sump.
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the light didn't came on, but affter when i tried to start the engine, it did start up quickly but the starter couldnt roll the engine easily, it was like when the battery if low, any way the engine did start up and the oil pressure light wnt of a little slow and did a few lash the sound of the engine was kind of matching with the flashes of the oil light. When i got home it was the same as before , i took a look at the crank and the shell bearings but i didnt took of the bottoms of the connecting roods, i just tried to see if they have any freeplay on the crankshaft, they have a verry little moveing of freeplay... i dont know if it should have any freeplay.
im still working on it and i will let you guys know whats up, util that please write me ideas, about what could happened...
thanks
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Check this out also:
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1500
There are specialty tools in several different threads. If you have any please also post the info in:
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1519
This is a Sticky in the "How To" forum section. We have a lot of special BMW tools among the M42Club members.
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any way the engine did start up and the oil pressure light wnt of a little slow and did a few lash the sound of the engine was kind of matching with the flashes of the oil light.
Parts blocking the oil pickup from the pan can allow your oil light to stay on a bit longer when you first start it. This is what happened to me. If you removed any foreign parts from the lower pan right away, there's probably no harm done. But if you drove like this over a period of time at constant high rpm's, you could have some accelerated engine wear among other things
Like I said before, just check your compression and report back.
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I am not experienced with engines but I think bearings will get more damage if oil pressure is too low.
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so hopefully tomorrow i get my new gaskats and i can put back all the things, i had inspected every thing, i hope it will be okay affter i m done, my first is to go for the compression test! it will tells me if something wrong.
THANKS i will post if i have new things to say
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Havng timing components grenade on you is no fun.
The damage comes when chunks of the chain guide break off and lodge in between the gear teeth and chain and the cams slip.
I had this happen on my M88 motor. $14,000 in damage. Luckily I did the work myself and it only cost me $7500 to rebuild.
http://bmwturbos.scottiesharpe.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1367
Here is a funny video I did of my drunk friends and I trying to loosen a crank nut on my friends M106 motor.
Enjoy!
http://bmwturbos.scottiesharpe.com/uploaded/scottie/bignut.wmv
:D :D :D :D
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Havng timing components grenade on you is no fun.
The damage comes when chunks of the chain guide break off and lodge in between the gear teeth and chain and the cams slip.
I had this happen on my M88 motor. $14,000 in damage. Luckily I did the work myself and it only cost me $7500 to rebuild.
http://bmwturbos.scottiesharpe.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1367
Here is a funny video I did of my drunk friends and I trying to loosen a crank nut on my friends M106 motor.
Enjoy!
http://bmwturbos.scottiesharpe.com/uploaded/scottie/bignut.wmv
:D :D :D :D
yes i had a simmilar 3days story about that crank nut:) the video is funny!
fortunetaly i find out nothing was damaged , only the oil intake whole was blocked and than the engine had some oil starwing... i ll put some pictures about what i see uder the cover. I just want you guys to take a look at it and write me if you think there is something in bad condition or something strange.... thanks!!!
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here are the pictures
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hi again guys!
i did the compression test ad its
1> 13.4bar
2> 13.4bar
3> 13.0bar
4> 14.0bar
i know the normal is 10-11
but i read in some manuals and bmwman91 post somewhere on bimmerforum so it's possibly just because of some carbon build up in culprit...
any way its better then under 10bar:)
so what the problem is, you guys remember i said i felt like a missfire or bugging, when i had the problem about having the oil suckup whole blocked by some metal piece in the oil pan....
now this missfire problem remains, only when im on the highway and going over or around 4000rpm, its happend only a few times, when it happens i just released the gaspedal wait a few sec. then all goes back normal, iff i try again to go faster then it happens randomly again. if i go 1st 2nd 3...with full gas, nothing happens, acctualy its better then it was. so i think when i had this "oil whole blocked" thing, my engine got hot because of no oil going around in there ( sure the engine was stuck a bit because when i tried to restart it the starter was cranking harder/slower then normal, which means there was heavy friction without oil.) and the exhaust system got too hot too and it might killed my O2 senzor.
the guy at the repair shop, where i did my compression test he also puted the thing in the end of the exhaust and he said the o2 senzor or the MAF is bad, but he was not sure.... he said its some fuel,air problem...
now, i think if the MAF is dead then i sould have problems quiet often, and at an exact RPMs...
this problem never happened before the "oil whole blocked" problem
the o2 senzor is only functioning when its get s to the proper temperature ( as i know, but i could be wrong...) so i think when i get on the high way and goig for a while then i try to go beetwen 4000 and redline, then this problem happens randomly, a few times.
anybody had bad o2 sensor experience?
could it be the o2 sensor?
is it possible to kill the o2 sensor with over heating it?
sorry for the long writes up, i just try to explain what is happening...
also SORRY for my english, i have to improve it....
Thanks guys!!!
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misfire could be because oh ignition and injection.
I had experience with bad O2 sensor, the engine loose power, but without misfire..
It could be spark plugs, wires and coils.
Injectors...
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ok spark plugs changed, now i didn't noticed the buging or misfire thing, i hope i will never do again, but when it was buging or misfireing it did felt less powerfull, once its gets hot then it feels less powerfull a bit, fortunetaly/hopefully the miss stroke is gone now, but i still thinking on the o2 sensor because the machine in the repair station showed that the fuel air mix was going up and down. so if its less powerfull when its hot is that the o2 sensor?
all spark plugs was kind of white.
idle good, runs good, but feels like something holds it back, just like a poor fuel mix...
i hope that im not annoying.
i might be working for this bmw garage in Spain in the near feature, where i usualy go if i need a press for bushings and things..... possibly doing the worst jobs, but it will helps the forum.... and my knowlage as well
i wish:)
thanks :D
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you can messure voltage on sensor, but to be shure you need oscillograph. If you O2 sensor is completly dead you will see it with multimeter...
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I had the same timing guide breakage. Amazingly a piece about the same size ended up in the pan, it has to squeeze through a pretty small hole to go from the timing case back into the pan.
To get the big bolt off, I took a piece of 1/2 plate steel, drilled 6 holes to match the pully bolt pattern, bolted it on, then welded it to the engine stand, then to actually break the bolt I put my 22mm impact socket on the bolt to protect it, then used a big pipe wrench to break the bolt. Impact socket ended up with few scratches, but nothing to major.