M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Electrical => Topic started by: bmwman91 on December 19, 2006, 11:29:57 PM
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Hokay, so I tried something new.....
As those that are ready to lynch me if I do not get this done soon know, the car was bogging badly when floored between 2500-3000RPM. According to some data logs I took, the AFR was hitting 19.5:1...BAD BAD BAD! Throughout the rest of the range, the car was better than new.
So, one of my biggest goals with this was to have it work with the stock air filter box. Well, before doing too much work redesigning the circuit and adding a throttle position input and all sorts of jazz, I went to TAP Plastics after work and got a few feet of 2 3/4" (70mm) OD acrylic tubing. The intent: velocity stack.
So, I basically made the longest one I could...8" (200mm) off the front of the MAF. I stuck it in the enormous cone filter I had laying around and went out for some tests.
For the gist of it, go to the end where I summarize the below info.
The bogging is not gone, but is a LOT better. I might have a chance to run out tonight and do some logging to see exactly how it has improved, but flogging the car on & off of the highway for 40 minutes seemed encouraging. Things are getting closer & closer to finalization.
A question...IF I was to leave it they way it is, how would buyers feel about the following conditions of use:
- Basically, do not open the throttle over 70% under 3000RPM.
My Note: From driving experience, the best performance comes by gradually opening the throttle anyway. Under 3500RPM, it seems that throttle openings above ~60% all have about the same result in acceleration. If you DO slam open the throttle with ANY sensor on there, the car can actually bog, or at least not perform as well as a more gradual, smooth opening. I am sure most of you have noticed this. The resonance on this motor at those RPM's was already there, the VAM was just not as sensitive and more or less "ignored" this effect.
This is in no way to say that I will not solve this. I have just been working on a solution in almost every free moment I have, and some moments when I should be sleeping. I now have a solution or 2, one of which is more likely to work, but will involve interfacing with the TPS, which means more code, more parts and more cost to everyone. I am somewhat anal retentive as far as engineering a product goes, and I suspect that I may be starting to over-engineer this. I know I expect perfection, but maybe I am losing sight of the customers' desires; and for 1/4 the cost of the next available MAF solution they would be willing to make a little compromise.
So, in brief:
- Ditching the air box has improved results...not PERFECT, but far better. Will post data logger results soon.
- Would "customers" be willing to NOT open the throttle more than 70% under 3000RPM (and as we have noticed with this motor, opening it over 60-100% under 3500RPM is all the same performance-wise)?
- Would "customers" be ok with ONLY using an open-element filter with a velocity stack tube (a tube which I could supply with the converter)? Mounting and heat shielding are the responsibility of the buyer (I MIGHT look into making mounting brackets, but that would add $$ to the unit cost).
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im interested in this...and honestly i don't open up the throttle until i get past 3500 rpm as well.
how much is roughly going to cost us?
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At the moment I am looking at ~$250 for the converter and probably the attachment pipe/stack. The MAF and mounting are up to the buyer for the moment. I think these MAF's can be had for under $100 at various places. Maybe ask Euro Nation...he tipped me off to it (and donated one to me).
I got bored the other night and needed a break. I felt like doing something artsy, but was still thinking about the MAF. So, I made a crude mock-up lol.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/solid03.png)
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/wire03.png)
More....
http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/solid01.png
http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/wire01.png
http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/solid02.png
http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/wire02.png
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so, i've been reading this thread for a while, but i still feel a little in the dark... with this converter installed, what kind of performance gains are we looking at?
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though i have already converted to MAF, i would still be interested in your kit. I don't want to have to rely on the SAFC to mod the signal if there's a simpler, more foolproof and reliable method ( i can always ebay off the SAFC!)
BUT THE BIG QUESTION IS!....will your kit work on an m42 in an e36? though the engine is mechanically similar, i beleive the intake manifold and DME is different. I think there's probably just as much (if not more!) m42 e36ers running around so i think you're gonna make all your hard work more worth it if it fits both cars;) .
cheers!
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Yeah, this should fit the E36/work with it just fine. The car is not different enough that there should be any problems. My sister has a 1992 M42, so I am sure I can get her to let me experiment on it a little lol.
Once I get the last bits ironed out, I will go dyno it and get some definite numbers. Hopefully this will have been worth my time.
IF the dyno numbers make this worth buying I am working on sourcing the hardware for mounting this. I cannot produce the hardware myself in a very cost-effective manner, but I have made contact with someone who probably can.
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do you have a data log? i wont want it if the arfs are all over the place
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Donīt you have control over the maf voltage to the ecu??
It took me 30min of driving to get the SMT6 to show identical voltages as the afm, but using a MAP sensor, a totally out of the range one, 0-3.5bar absolute
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I DO have total control, but the MAF is so sensitive that each individual intake pulse can be resolved. There is a portion of the RPM range where here is some innate resonance/harmonic produced that drags the overall average of the output down...thus leaning out the mixture. I am working on remapping some of the sensor data with some new math software I purchased. The MAF is most sensitive to low flow rates and less to higher ones, so small amounts of backflow really hurt the overall voltage-averaging trend. So, I am working on mathematically reworking the converstion function to accomodate for this.
The SMT6 has the advantage of taking throttle position, RPM and other inputs right? If so, then it is going to have a far easier time calculating everything. Being able to adjust the output according to specific TPS & RPM conditions would make everything a lot easier as far as the conversion goes. One solution is for me to add a throttle input and have the conversion algorithm change under WOT conditions at certain flow rates...but this adds to the cost, development & debugging time and for might still be unnecessary.
I was actually thinking about doing a MAP conversion in the future, but that would basically be a very model-specific unit. MAP based fueling is completely relient on a constant volumetric efficiency curve, and any changes to it require the pressure bins to be recalibrated. That is why I went with a MAF for this...it reads ACTUAL air flow regardless of what is on the other side of it VE-wise. The MAF is a lot more versatile as far as a product designed to replace the VAM. A MAP converter would require individual tuning for each application unless the car was bone stock internally.
Oh and no, no log yet. I will do get some tonight. I have been sacrificing sleep for the past, I don't even know how many nights, to work on this after my full-time job. I was starting to feel like I might be coming down with something last night, and the mexican food w/ a beer were making me sleepy, so I went to bed early to catch up. I feel better today so I should be up for working late again lol.
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the SMT6 has all kinds of inputs, analog, tps, rpm, temprature
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Cool beans. Can it act as a stand-alone as well?
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So couldn't you add a capacitor or what amounts to a "power conditioner" to the signal line that would smooth the signal generated by the maf? Something totally analog so there's no code to mess with?
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I presently have an RC filter on there, I just tapped into the wiring outside the circuit. It would be good to see the post-filter signal as well, but I am about to program the remapped information into the converter. It looks like it should help in the trouble-area.
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I got the remapped data in the unit and went out for a test. The bogging is not gone, but it is a lot better. When I log tomorrow I expect the AFR to be in a much safer spot. Getting there.......
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Cool beans. Can it act as a stand-alone as well?
Actually ,, yes.
using only 1 coil and a distributor itīs possible,
also running all the injectors at the same time,
It would be possible.
Iīve always wanted to use one for complete ignition control,
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Pretty neat. For the price, it is not too bad if it was used stand-alone. Probably a lot less headaches than my MegaSquirt experience!
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Booya. I finally targeted the right area and richened it up. The car feels a LOT better, and I un-did the changes I made to the top of the flow curve so it no longer runs too rich up top. The little 2700RPM "dip" is a tiny bit noticeable, but AFR's are probably within the safe zone now! I can easily tune that little bit up now that I know exactly where to work. I will (really) do some logging tomorrow afternoon since I now have time.
After that, I just need to run extreme ambient air temperature scenarios through the design to ensure they will not excessively shift things. Then I can work on getting to the part everyone wants...assembling a BOM (bill of materials) and ordering the first production round. We are close people, VERY close! Maybe I am closer to making back the thousand $ I have dropped on R&D and countless days of work (and paying off some school loans lol)! Lol, let's just say you have not lived until you have dealt with a 22nd order polynomial at 11PM with a cold coming on!
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"- Would customers be willing to NOT open the throttle more than 70% under 3000RPM"
Doesnt bother me.
"Would customers be ok with ONLY using an open-element filter"
Works for me.
"Mounting and heat shielding are the responsibility of the buyer"
The cheaper the better.
I can understand your excitement. Congrats on all of your future success.
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BOOYA!
I corrected the issue! THe AFR's stay within safe bounds, and the car actually pull in the problem RPM range! Here is the log I snagged 30 minutes ago. Remember, the scale on the right is for the AFR (green)!
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/122206_01.png)
The previous logs looked like this:
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/121706_01.png)
Interestingly enough, the car actually has a lean spike right around there with the VAM. This is a shot from years ago when I dynoed my first M42 with a Conforti chip. The lean spike I experience now is less than before, but for some reason there are 2! Either way, I seem to have the problem on the run!
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/origafr.png)
The addition of the velocity stack also helped a lot. The MAF output is a lot cleaner (magenta) with it on there. Looks like no dice on the air box idea! I will spend the rest of the day trying to fne tune this. Results will be posted!
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how are the afrs at part throttle?
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They are good. Mileage is still the same on the highway...basically all the lower flow rates have remained unchanged. You would have to be "cruising" at like 110mph to be hitting the "correction enrichments." I have been running errands and whatnot all day in it, and it feels nice.
Still though, I need to dyno the thing and it is scary! It better put down a little more power, though I think from the get-go it was stated that this was not going to yield much there. It is intended to improve throttle response and eliminate the prone-to-wear VAM junkbox. A little extra power seems reasonable though.
EDIT:
I DID discover that throttle openings over ~70% below 1800RPM cause the motor to cut out (fuel cut). It has been doing this all along, since day of using this MAF. It is another resonance point, and might be tossing crazy values to the computer. This is one thing that has not been affected by any of my changes. People might just have to live with this one. Lol, if you want 1800RPM performance get a V8.
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Lol, if you want 1800RPM performance get a V8.
hahah i agree
as for the rest of it...
- Would "customers" be willing to NOT open the throttle more than 70% under 3000RPM (and as we have noticed with this motor, opening it over 60-100% under 3500RPM is all the same performance-wise)?
with the 4.10 diff, i can barely get the pedal all the way to the floor before i have to shift into second... so this is definitely not a problem...
- Would "customers" be ok with ONLY using an open-element filter with a velocity stack tube (a tube which I could supply with the converter)?
YESSSSS!!!!! finally, something goes my way!!!
- Mounting and heat shielding are the responsibility of the buyer (I MIGHT look into making mounting brackets, but that would add $$ to the unit cost).
as mentioned above, the cheaper the better... ill have those before i even get the MAF anyway...
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WEll that is good to hear. I have a holiday treat for you...
I fixed it, now you CAN floor it under 300RPM. The "WOT cutoff" is now 1800RPM. OK, off to the store...then more logging.
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I think that I will call the mapping complete. Here is the catch to all of this...
The MAF takes temperature into account and naturally deals with it by design. The ECU, however, "thinks" it is the same temperature all the time. So, leaving out all the technical blah blah I had to deal with...the corrective mapping is basically perfect right now, with the outside temperature ranging from 35F - 55F during my testing. The output will "slide" on the output map with temperature changes.
Plain English:
What this means is that at EXTREME temperature differences, the MAF converter will cause some slightly rich/lean conditions. None of these lean conditions should pose a threat to your motor from what I have simulated.
- Lean Condition
This could occur if you floored in the infamous "problem" RPM range of ~2700RPM, and the ambient temperature is below 20F. Your motor should not blow up. If should in fact still be better than my original plots before I fixed the problem...you might see an AFR of up to 17:1. My only concern for the customer with this was prettymuch if they floored if there in 4th or 5th gear where it will see prolonged lean time...1st - 3rd were relatively brief.
Rich Condition
If the user is at full throttle and the outside temperature is above 90F, the engine might run a tad rich up to ~4100RPM, like maybe 12.5:1 or 13:1. Obviously, this is not a threat to the motor, it could just hurt the performance depending on where the M42's "sweet spot" AFR is.
Outside those bounds, there will still not be a threat really. Within those bounds I can more of less say that performance should be mostly the same. The "sweetspot" temperatures for this thing are 35F - 80F.
So, I have choices here (well, you guys do). I can just start looking into producing these...or I can look into interfacing this with the ambient temp sensor in the brake duct and work out like 4 different maps for various temperature ranges. I am probably over-thinking this, but I want:
a) happy customers, year round
b) to feel like I did this "right"
c) to not have to deal with ANY returns & refunds with pissed off people
It could take me another week or so to work something out with the thermistor, and not everyone had one right? Input is requested about this lol. Just putting out all the "tradeoff's" of doing this.
Anyway, you are all surely tired of reading, so here are some pretty colors.
Cruising at 55mph.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/55mph.png)
Cruising at 75mph.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/75mph.png)
Second gear pull up to 6500RPM, with what I think is the FINAL correction. I got the AFR's up top a bit richer, matching the ones from my Dyno run years ago more closely.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/122406_01.png)
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Also of note...the effects of using the makeshift velocity stack. The first image was from when I had this attached to the air box. MESSY! The second one was with an 8" tube in front of the MAF, with a BIG (cough, ricer) air filter on it. Also, the lowest RPM in the messy one was was ~2400RPM. The lowest speed in the cleaner one was ~2000RPM, where the resonance is even worse! I would say that the velocity stack is an A+ idea! Now, with that said, those who will keep with the VAM...leave your little air box horns in there!!! The VAM IS slightly subject to this phenomenon, just not as much as a MAF.
Air Box, NO Stack
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/nohorn.png)
Cone Filter, WITH Stack
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/logs/withhorn.png)
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hmm, is there no way you can just tap a temp sensor into the ecu?
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Well, it gets really complicated really fast. To do an on-the-fly calculation of a 19th order polynomial that has coefficients that are decimal numbers to the -11th power (.00000000x'th) is uhmmm...yeah you get the idea. That would require a 16-bit microcontroller running at like 20MHz, and a ton of coding.
The best you can really do while maintaining reasonable coding is have various lookup tables based upon temperature thresholds. The problem is...not everyone has the ambient temperature thermistor. MOST people do I think. At first, I thought about putting a switch on that the user would toggle if it was above/below some threshold, but that seemed hokey, and would crank the cost since I would then need to machine the enclosure to fit it.
I dunno, I am tired and frankly, sick of fighting fires with this (if you are planning on being an engineer...be ready for spending 90% of the time doing that on ANY project, EVER). I know damn well I will not sell this unit with the potential error it has at the moment lol, I just need my second (or maybe seventh) wind on this. I have a spare temp sensor so I should stop being lazy and map it. I have some extra inputs How have I been managing to spend time with the family this weekend, I do not know! Working at home has its perks lol.
My goal is still to have this DONE and ready for production by the time I go back for my last semester of school...so I have 3 weeks to get my shit together! The thread title is staying lol...the converter IS 99% done if it is winter in the CA bay area!
Hope everyone else is having a good Christmas/Kwanzaa/Chanukah/virgin sacrifice/whatever! Mine has been so far (thank you beer)!
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Well, everyone DOES have an intake air temp sensor that hey COULD use, if they feel lucky.
The VAM has one you could scavange. You will have a velocity stack you could drill a hole in for mounting the the sensor. You would just have to supply dirrections for removing the stock sensor from the VAM and supply a plug or instructions on soddering.
Or, how much could they cost? It would probably cost you more in time to figure out what the part number is than to buy twenty.
You could also do the old "Stage I, II, III" kit thing. You know, this version is as you have it and is Stage I and comes with the ability to add the air temp sensor later via a simple plug and the owner drills a hole in his velocity stack which is Stage II.
I assume you would have to reprogram the chip? Too bad you can't put it all on a flash card that you can just yank and pop in your handy memory card reader on the computer you read this forum and write a new program to it.
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Well I believe I have the solution worked out. The thing will be able to operate from -13F to 113F (-25C to 45C) with a very slight amount of error. It will use the commonly available GM air temp or coolant temp sensor. You can stick it right in the intake boot in the extra plugged hole up by the TB. I did that for my megasquirt. A new one with connector is like $20, and "free" from a junk yard if you catch my drift. It was found on TONS of vehicles. So, that solves that.
I have the hardware all taken care of. I just need to finish up generating the various maps now.
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Amazing what you can do in 24 hours when you have to divide it amongst freinds, family and personal projects.
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Haha yeah. It likes to sit in the back of my mind, working itself over. I will usually be sitting at the dinner table talking about whatever, when suddenly an idea comes from nowhere. That was the case here lol, well I was actually out running when it hit me.
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Can you show a pic of the hole the thermostat will go in? Is it so close to the tb that it might get heat-soaked?
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So how much is this gonnna run, im essentially ready to buy!!!
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The breakdown is looking to be:
~$250 for the converter to start (from me), and could go up in the future
$40-100 for the MAF
Maybe $40+ for the mounting hardware, I will be looking into working with 666 Fab for the attachment stuff.
$0-20 for the GM IAT sensor
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$330-$410 probably.
I know, not the cheapest, but who knows. Once everything is ironed out things can change. It is still somewhat up in the air as far as production stuff goes. I will do my best to keep cost for you guys to a minimum.
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Sorry, missed the sensor placement question.
There is a bung in the underside of the rubber boot about 1" / 2.5cm from the TB. Heat soak should not be an issue as I noted from the MegaSquirt experience. If it was mounted in the aluminum manifold...then you would likely have a problem.
As long as you use the open-cage sensor, you should be fine if you are concerned about anything. Response time is not really crucial in this application anyway...the sensor is more to ensure consitstent running than to do much to performance. Once air begins flowing in any amount that would be indicitave of large throttle openings, the thing will be at the resistance it needs to be for proper WOT operation.
BTW
I got all the maps worked out. Basically, if you are at WOT anywhere between -13F to 113F (-25C to 45C), the enrichments will kick in with no more than a 2.3% shift in RPM correction. Outside this range, error increases by 2.3% for every +/-9F (+/-5C). Lol, I don't know about you, but I'd say this takes care of basically everyone.
Who here lives at extreme altitude? If you are above like 5000ft, the corrections in the 2500-3000RPM range will not be as effective, but everything will otherwise be fine. No, no barometric correction on this lol! The little sensors can be like $40 alone!
Sorry this is taking so long. I just want to have ALL bases covered before I sell anything. A robust product means less headaches for everyone.
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Hi BMWman
hope its not too late, see the pics of my successful DIY conversion below -
U requested for it a week back. I'm not sure if the OEM connectors for this is easily available but it seems to be the standard 4 pin round BMW plugs that you can find in various other applications on the harness.
What i did was just get female bullet connectors, solder it to the harness, and directly plug it to the MAF to the corresponding pin. I then just slip the original rubber boot over the whole connection.
I just lifted this MAF from my mechanics parts bin. Its Siemens and the opening measure 2 3/4 inches.....anyone can confirm what MAF this belongs to?
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Hmmm, the element in that one is even more open! The design has no backflow protection at all like the Bosch one I am using. Maybe the E36 M42's dual-intake system was designed to help with exactly this or something. Lol, hrmmmm.....maybe the E30 M42 is the hardest motor I could have picked for this. Guess I will have to call up my sister and convince her to let me make her car a guinnea pig!
Thanks for the pictures!
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The MAF above looks like an M52 one. hotwire MAFs shouldn't require much air density correction, because they respond to density changes at same air flowrate unlike the AFM. Having said that I use IAT based density correction as it gives me more consistent results, and yes, heat soak is an issue for me with the IAT and the sensor is just on the entry of my (fibreglass) intake plenum, so a long way from any alloy engine-attached bits. as far as IATs go, the later BMW sensors (M44 among other models) are calibrated the same as the IAT within the M42 AFM.
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oh and i have the part nos for the 4 pin MAF connectors and plastic housing etc for an OEM install if anyone needs them.
ta dah
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/ts295/bmw/DSCN3000.jpg)
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How much do the connector bodies cost you? Those things seem to get pretty pricey!
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What maf do we need if we chose to buy are own,thanks
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Funny you asked, I was just looking around at OEM connectors and stuff. Apparently, this MAF is pretty new, and a little pricier than I had initially thought. The VW part number is:
06A 906 461L
and can be bought from (EDIT: SEE MY NEXT POST) for $132. This is the only unit the conversion works with at the moment. There are other similar MAFs out there that are cheaper, but I have not been able to get one in good condition to calibrate from.
VW PN 06A 906 461A is like $70 from the same site, although I do not have one, nor have I mapped one out. I wish I had used that one simply because I know cost is a big thing for some people, but hindsight is 20/20. So, do NOT use the 461A part...only the 461L part. For now, the cost breakdown is kinda ugly (worst case):
Converter $250
MAF $135
Filter $40
Mounting Hardware (maybe) $50
GM IAT Sensor $20
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$495 in the end
Now, say you just decide to make your own velocity stack from some 2.75OD acrylic tubing or thin-wall metal pipe, and rig up some sort of brace yourself. That knocks the mounting hardware cost down to like $10. So, $455 total.
I do not even know how much cone filters are these days since I have been reusing a K&N one for like 6 years. Maybe get away for $30. $445 there.
Score yourself the GM IAT sensor from a wrecker...-$20....total $425.
Now, this is a big IF, but say it works with the OEM airbox with these corrections (I have not tried it there yet). You will just need like 4" of 2.75" OD tubing and a little adapter found on all M10 E30's and many M20's at wreckers...no filter -$40, and say the same $10 for hardware. Total, $385.
Again, the only problem with the airbox was that you ran lean at WOT between 2500 & 3000RPM. With my maping corrections, this is probably not as much an issue anymore. I will test this out soon.
Stuff sure adds up doesn't it. I cannot blame Split Second for charging $1000 for a conversion kit. Stuff is hard to keep inexpensive when it is something relatively complex like this. What are peoples' thoughts on cost (though I cannot really do much about it)?
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Qusetion do you have any pics of the set up on your car, also what VW is it off? thanks
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Also you converter comes with the connector to directly plug into the maf right?
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There were a number of models it came form I believe.
Here is the PROPER link to the MAF (with a list f models at the bottom):
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/genuine-part-air-mass-meter-maf-rebuilt_268509.html
If someone can dig up this exact sensor for less $, it helps everyone out a lot.
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Yes, I will be supplying the connector with the wires crimped in. The only cutting & splicing you need to do is on the stock vane meter's connector harness. I will provide the conectors and uncrimped pins for that as well. You can manage with some needlenose pliers and a soldering iron if you cannot find the right terminal crimpers. You need the type to do open-barrel terminals. I will also provide a wiring diagram/install manual.
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SWeeet my cousin has a spare vw MAf sensor that has mathcing part numbers. There are plently of junkyards around, so i think all i will need is the adapter. let me know when they are ready to ship,thanks.
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Continuing to post whore.....
I am seeing about getting some dyno time tomorrow afternoon. A shop near my office has one (the place I went years ago), so I can try to slip in during lunch. This thing better make a damn difference! I guess if it proves to be worthless for the M42, the M20 HAS to benefit from it. I am too far into this financially to give up lol.
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SWeeet my cousin has a spare vw MAf sensor that has mathcing part numbers. There are plently of junkyards around, so i think all i will need is the adapter. let me know when they are ready to ship,thanks.
The adapter is the square-to-round transition on the front of M10 AFM's or inside the airbox. Some M20's had them too.
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you can get a cone filter with the square to circle adaptor for 25 dollars shipped on ebay buy it now. that cuts a bit from the total. I got mine on there. for my regular afm setup.
so Im thinking for those with stock air box:
250 converter
25 cone filter and square to cone adaptor (search "e36 cone" {check: title and descriptions})
100 maf
20 GM sensor
total: 392 + mounting hardware (if you mean more than the square to circle)
or if already coned 370 + mounting hardware (if you mean more than the square to circle)
Does this sound about right?
looking forward to the dyno results.
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A bit off topic but what does a chassis dyno run cost?
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They did 3 runs for $65 last time I was there. I think we got a discount because 3 of us were there, but who knows. I will look into a run with the VAM, a run with the MAF + airbox, and a run with MAF and velocity stack + ricer filter.
Anyway, I need to know what sort of interest there is in this. I need at least 10 to sell for me to be able to afford the parts. A quantity like 10 does not exactly fetch me any sort of quantity discount lol. This batch of parts is gonna cost me, but I need to know if people actually want this still before I drop every penny I have on parts. Of course, I supose interest is hinging on the dyno results lol.
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Mannnn!....if your MAF converter was ready about 2 months ago, i would have booked one regardless of the dyno results!!!....but now, since i've invested quite a bit for the piggyback fuel controller, i got to think twice.
Side issue... how did u rig up the o2 sensor to get your logged data? i think its quite good if i can rig it up and read the realtime voltages on my controller. What o2 sensor did u use? what kind of output does it give for lean/rich situations?
cheers mate.....happy 2007 to everyone on this thread!
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I am running an LC-1 Wide-Band O2 system from http://www.innovatemotorsports.com . Best $200 I ever spent on anything diagnostic related. It has two analog outputs, both programmable. One output comes programmed to simulate a narrow-band sensor (the kind ours, and prettymuch all production cars use), and you can hook it right up to the Motronic's EGO input. The other one is fully programmable as well. Right now, I have it set for 0V output at 10:1 AFR, and 5V at 20:1AFR.
They provide software that will monitor AFR's via serial port, and just about anything else if you want to drop the $$$ on their system. I made my own little test unit and used the second analog output.
For reference, here is the difference between a narrow-band O2 sensor output, and a wide-band sensor. NB sensors are ONLY accurate at the stoichiometric ratio. It is a crapshoot everywhere else. This is why the AFR's were oscillating...the ECU will see the voltage is too high, so it richens things up until the voltage is too low, then leans it out, etc etc....it will never be able to hold the AFR axactly at 14.7:1.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/other2/o2sensors.gif)
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I've heard of an O2 sensor blind...not too sure what it does but apparently it keeps the mixture at 14.7...ever heard of it?
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My guess on that would be:
You hook the 'blind" input to the ECU and tell it that the mixture is perfect all the time. You also install a Wide-Band sensor from which you can tune. Then, you do whatever the hell you want with the air flow input, fuel injectors, etc to "tune" the injection system hardware as you want. The ECU will not toss fault codes or retard the timing/run "limp mode" maps if it thinks the mixture is correct, and you can make the mixture whatever you want it to be. Just my guess.
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Hi, Devils Advocate, or monkey with a wrench here. I went through three MAFs on my SAAB before I got a good one that actually worked. It solved all of my mystery performance issues that had plagued me since getting the car. It was the last resort as I'd replaced EVERYTHING else.
Is there any provision for adjustment of your unit to take different and possibly dying MAFs into account? Have you done any comparrisons using a different but same part# MAF? Can you be sure the MAF you used was actually any good?
I know these questions are a little late, but I figure they ought to be asked. If someone pulls a MAF at the junk yard and hooks up your unit to it and complains becuase it runs like crap, it may be the MAF, it may be your maps from you MAF, who knows. You'll probably want a couple "proof" installs to be sure.
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Good questions. The one I am using looks to be brand new. I got it from Euro Nation in a trade, along with another one. The other one was pretty oily, and actually gave me a little trouble. This one did not have a speck of dirt on it and looked like it had never been used. IIRC he said it was brand new...I will double check though.
So yeah, I will make sure everything is proper before I let any loose on everyone, so if you get a bad junkyard MAF, you know it is the MAF giving the trouble.
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Well, Son of a B. The shop I dynoed my car at years ago no longer does it for the public, and the other shops I knew of no longer have the dynos. There are a couple other places, but they are booked until the end of January, or not answering the phone on weekends. For some reason, a few runs on a dyno costs $130+ now, when I used to have it done for $65. WTF?!
So, I guess I could look into a GTech meter, but the one that lets you download the run data is friggin $300. I need to figure something out.....
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Couldn't you just do some old fashioned stop watch runs? Dyno charts are great, but if you post some 0-60 and roll on times in 3rd 4th and 5th I'm sure everyone will have a better idea of what to expect in a real world situation than a dyno chart would show anyway. Plus its free. You just need someone consistent on the timer.
The best part is you get to do several 0-60 and roll on runs.
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Haha, yeah I know. I just wanted something definitive to say that spending your hard earned $ on this will net you X benefits as shown from the dyno. I really cannot trust the butt-dyno too much...but I would see about getting a partner to time how long it takes to go from 2000RPM to 6500RPM in 2nd gear or something. I want to try and avoid shifts if I do it that way...just for consistency's sake. Good idea though!
Since I could not dyno it today, I did some other stuff. I gave it a badly needed waxing, and then began work on the installation manual. Here is a sample of the main system installation overview diagram. There will be text and whatnot as well, this is for reference and a real quick "what goes where" look.
(http://www.e30tuner.com/projects/images/mafcon/VAM2MAF_V4_INST.png)
The user will have to crimp terminals for the connectors that go on the old VAM harness and ECU harness. You will either need some crimpers for open-barrel terminals, or some needle-nose pliers & a soldering iron. I will be supplying all the connectors/butt-splices/taps/fuses & holders.
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edge motorsports over in the east bay recently held a couple dyno days with discounted prices. not sure how much the current price for a run is, but you can check it out on baybimmerz.net. bmwman, you should also register on baye30.net as well as baybimmerz
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Just a heads up, I think you accidentally switched two numbers in the part number of the maf on the diagram. Should be 461L according to your earlier post.
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Good catch Nathan. Fixing........
I will look into Edge motorsports. I have heard of them, I guess they did not come to mind yesterday.
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man i can't wait !
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You're telling me lol. I cannot wait for my bank account and free time availability to recover! Happy New Year everyone!
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Dun dun dun.....
Going to Edge Motor Works tomorrow at 1:30pm to do some dyno pulls. It's judgement time.....
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Cool! ha! Ive been watching this come to life for so long I cant wait to see the dyno! Please post the results as soon as you can cause Ill be hitting the refresh button like a retard on crack. (add family guy stewy's voice here) Really have you seen a retard on crack, its like an epileptic christmas. mmmmm epileptic christmas yesss... mmm.... kind of has a ring to it. :D
Then is there any chance you will try it out on your sisters e36? Its what I got. I know Im a loser to this board. But I do love squeezing/driving my m42 and have helped work on my friend Austin on bf e30 (tranny, egr, exhaust, hood strut lol etc etc).
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Haha no no. We are all losers on here...cast aside by the M20-driving cream of the E30 crop lol. It is a hard life we lead, but we manage :D.
This should more or less be a direct swap right onto the E36. The E36 MIGHT not have the same resonance issue due to its variable intake manifold, so who knows...maybe you guys will get away with not needing the $20 GM temperature sensor.
I just finished up some prototype drawings for the mounting apparatus. It is a little ugly, but probably about as cheap as you can get. Sticking with standard material like angle iron and tubing should help. Obviously, I will need to put the tube at an angle since the MAF is not perfectly horizontal, but until I actually mock something up I just need an estimate on this hardware kit for you guys.
Now, I am 90% sure you can just get a $6 2.75" rubber/silicone cuopler and use the MAF with the airbox. With the corrective emasuers I took, you should not go dangerously lean anymore when floored between 2500 - 3000RPM. Dyno results will let you know for sure the performance difference between an open element setup and the air-box one.
Again,
The motor WILL sorta cut out if floored below ~1800RPM though, and I have been unable to fix this. It has to do with some complicated stuff, and thus far not one person has had an issue with it. The price on this would go up if I had to deal with that little bit 'O fun.
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what were the results?
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Haha, well, let's just say I need to make some heat shielding and work a tiny bit more on the mapping. Basically, the notion that you will not gain power, but instead better idle, throttle response and overall better behavior is right. The M42's AFM was well-sized. I will look into getting some plots up...maybe after I fix the little issue with hot air being sucked in. I am a little miffed after all this work and a $1500+ personal investment (tools, parts, dyno time, etc). I need a break from this damn thing.
I will still run the MAF for a couple reasons:
Aside from my AFM being toast and replacements costing as much as the converter & a MAF, I really like the way the car feels with the MAF, so I am keeping it on. It feels a lot snappier.
I am road-tripping to Santa Barbara to spend the week climbing/BBQing/drinking and doing everything but think about anything resembling work. Hopefully I will have enough brain cells left to finish this lol.
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"climb"?!!.....as in rock climbing?
kool to know a fellow climber!!!
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Yeah, some climbing of the rock-nature.
OK, I got some sleep and an willing to talk about the results now lol. Basically, if you want more power then buy a supercharger/turbo/build your motor. The MAF will not gain you any. Again, there are other benefits, but I have a feeling nobody will want to pay $ for them. Maybe if their AFM is pooped out they would lol, since this ends up costing as much as a rebuilt one. With the MAF, the car LOST 3 ft-lbs of torque evenly across the whole board. The fact that it was a consistent loss that followed the all-stock curve shape perfectly tells me it was due to sucking hot air. The thing did not work very well with the air box...it leaned waaaay out around 3000RPM again even with the corrections in there. Oddly though, it actually kept up with the stock AFM torque curve most of the time, and dipped where it was a little leaner. I will see about scaling prettymuch the whole thing, but honestly, I am tired of working on this, and if nobody wants one then I am gonna call it quits. I have put too much time & $ into this to put more in right now. Shoulda done it to the M20 lol, I KNOW that needs it. Stupid well-designed M42........
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First off, thanks for the candidness on the results.
Man dont be discouraged. From your afr results youve just proven your mapping need a little tweaking then I bet your hptq numbers get better. I mean the afr is going to impact the hp/tq numbers especially with spikes that you mentioned. Do you have an afr gauge? You could video that next to your tac real world and adjust your mapping to that.
About the heat shield idea. Was your hood open when you dyno'd? Heat shouldnt make a difference if it was imho.
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Yeah the hood was cracked. I am not sure how much hotter the air was with it that way. The guy at Edge was sorta confused as well. It was running a little leaner than with the AFM, and he said these motors usually make a little more power when run a tad lean. Who knows. I will see about scaling stuff more, but i cannot afford to mess with this much more.
Honestly, from what I am seeing, a MAF will make the exact same numbers as a stock AFM. Maybe the MAF would be better sold as a replacement for a worn out AFM lol. I suppose I am just annoyed about the power numbers. The car is still more fun to drive with the MAF.
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Did you do a dyno run with your engine using an AFM?
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Yup. I did one all-stock, one with the MAF and airbox, and oen with the MAF and a cone filter. Amazingly, all-stock performed best. "Worst" was the MAF + cone...3ft-lbs less all across the board. The even drop in torque leads me to think it was sucking hotter air...a density change seems to be the only thing that could cause such a consistent pattern. The AFR was not constantly different so my maps were probably OKish.
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.....But!....what are the figures like? could you post your dyno sheet? i'll try to post up mine with the MAF once i can get a scanner. (prob is, i did not do a dyno at all with the AFM!)
cheers man!....don't get dissapointed, there's a reason why the later model engines all came with MAFs, there must be some benefit....if not in terms of power gain, in other departments like reliability, response, accuracy or even cost. i know for a fact that MAFs are way cheaper than AFMs.
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You should have dyno'd it without any air filters and see where did the restriction come from. ;)
A cone filter without an apropriate cold air intake is worthless. Actually, worse than stock box.
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You should have dyno'd it without any air filters and see where did the restriction come from. ;)
A cone filter without an apropriate cold air intake is worthless. Actually, worse than stock box.
Yes, and I have the proof lol.
m3someday, you are right. The non-power benefits are all there...I just need to see if I can get the thing to be as good as stock on the dyno. It does not seem to matter in the least what benefits something has...if the dyno numbers do not look good, nobody will be interested, at least in general. The MAF conversion is like choosing an M42 over an M20...the M20 has more power and all, but the M42 is just more responsive and rev-happy. Oh well, after relaxing this weekend maybe I will feel recharged.
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Well, although the dyno results have kinda made this dead in the water (as far as marketability), I figured I would update anyway. I had a spare airbox on hand, so I did some cutting to get a 2 3/4" OD velocity stack running into the top half. The car now runs without bogging dangerously at all RPM's WITH the factory airbox. The rig is still a little ghetto, but after another day or 2 on the mill & with some welding I should have a bolt-on adapter plate for mine. Maybe I will feel like dropping another $85 at the dyno again someday.....
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Honestly, from what I am seeing, a MAF will make the exact same numbers as a stock AFM. Maybe the MAF would be better sold as a replacement for a worn out AFM lol. I suppose I am just annoyed about the power numbers. The car is still more fun to drive with the MAF.
this is exactly what I saw when I dyno'd with and without an AFM. I've had a lot of people say things to the contrary, so in a way I'm glad you back up what I've seen, although I am sad for you that after all your good work you're not seeing more power. Using some drain pipe duct taped to the airbox (perfectly sealed, good as a temporary rig up) I got exactly same power as with the AFM. I also saw no vacuum at WOT with the AFM, unlike the S14 etc, so saw no reason to believe that the AFM was incorrectly sized. dropping the AFRs from the factory 13.7:1 down to around 13:1 consistently gained around 4-5rwhp.
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Yes, this is pretymuch what I was seeing as well. Back when I had a megasquirt on my first M42, I say NO vacuum at WOT, even with the AFM on there still.
Like I said. I still feel it to be worth the time & trouble, just for my own personal knowledge and whatnot. The car also responds faster now, and my mileage got better. Well that, and no more misfiring due to a worn out AFM lol.
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I pretty much don't know shit, but I think you have something that just needs a little tweaking to be exactly what you and everyone else is looking for. (thats supposed to be encouragement)
I only have one maf car to take experience from. The maf is at least 8 inches away from the airbox and the airbox itself is designed with the velocity stack built in. On the other side the maf is 5 feet from the throttle plate with a turbo and intercooler in between.
One thing that always came up in discussion was turbulence to the maf. Some people talked about removing the protective screens because they cause turbulence.
I'm talking about my old SAAB, but she really gets up and goes. But aside form that there is absoulutely no hesitation or bogging and she runs really smooth.
All I'm saying here is that maybe it's worth the time to see if maf placement makes the difference you ar looking for? Add some extra tubing to help smooth things out.