M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine management => Topic started by: Dusty B on December 17, 2012, 08:43:01 AM
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First post here on M42. First off I'd like to say that this is a great community. I've lurked for a while and found vast amounts of very useful information. This is my first BMW, but not my first car that I've had to work on. I'm a little behind on the "quirks" of the bavarian nature but give me a little slack please :).
Secondly, I'd like to apologize for another crank no start thread. Mods, please move if in wrong section!
Vehicle in question is 91 318is. m42 engine equiped (think a junkyard motor, yellow chaulk numbers on timing cover)
As stated condition is crank no start. This is how I picked up the car. Dead battery when I inherited the car so no stored codes but the "1444" from stomp test. Previous owner stated he drove the car home one night, went out next morning and never started again. I went through the normal look over for fusible link issue, but all was well there. So onward I went.
Have good compression at all cylinders ~170 accross the board.
Great spark at all cylinders. Coils have sufficient voltage at thier respective connectors. All correctly connected.
Have fuel. Bench tested every piece of fuel delivery system, have checked all vehicle wiring. Pull the supply hose before rail, and it'll fill a 2 liter bottle with ease when cranking not to mention soaking the plugs while trying to crank to start when connected. Return line clean and clear.
Crank sensor ohms out a little low, around 505ohms. I know this is lower than expected, but have read many posts of people have this or lower and still been able to start. Cam sensor ohms out perfectly at 1250.
Have checked mechanical timing. Timing chain is taught and timing is dead on correct.
So now I'm leaning to an electrical/engine management issue still. I realize it still may be the crank sensor, so I'm thinking about picking another up today just to ease my mind.
The one thing that got me though.... I pulled the fuel pump fuse. This had/has no effect on the cranking of the vehicle. I decided to shoot some starting fluid in the intake to see if she would "pop" over. Well she popped alright, back through the intake with a fireball into the engine bay. Luckily I'm very careful with flamables and everything from previous tests was cleaned properly. So this leads me to believe electronic timing issue. I don't know enough about the m42 timing yet to verify if any intake valve should be open at all when spark is being introduced, especially at a start/idle standpoint.
I'm just a little stumped. All the right ingredients, but no succesful shake and bake!
Thanks in advance for any help/replies.
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it sounds like you have covered a lot of bases, so if you are correct that its a timing issue, yet the mechanical timing of the engine is correct, that leaves you with the only real variable in the equation...the puter...yes, that lovely little device lurking above your glove box has been known to sometimes take a dump, and when it does the only thing to try is another one, hopefully one that is known to be good from a running car, or as supplied by possibly a helpful board member, I dont have an extra or I'd offer it. They are usually pretty reasonable in cost. Good luck,
Geoff
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it sounds like you have covered a lot of bases, so if you are correct that its a timing issue, yet the mechanical timing of the engine is correct, that leaves you with the only real variable in the equation...the puter...yes, that lovely little device lurking above your glove box has been known to sometimes take a dump, and when it does the only thing to try is another one, hopefully one that is known to be good from a running car, or as supplied by possibly a helpful board member, I dont have an extra or I'd offer it. They are usually pretty reasonable in cost. Good luck,
Geoff
Geoff,
Thanks for your response. It's helpful to have the experts confirm I'm going in the right direction.
The next embarrasing thing on the list now.... My glovebox won't open! haha. Discovered this the other day before I actually started trying to get the car to start, was just giving the EXTREMELY clean interior a once over and clean out. Figured I'd empty the glovebox of it's contents and currently is inaccessible. I'll get that sorted out one way or another though....
Has anyone seen an e30 act like this with a supposidly good grand sensor?
Anyone seen this behavior with a bad pcm? Mainly the popping back through the intake?
If anyone relatively close by or further away would lend me either/or/both a crank sensor or computer I'd be indebted forever. I'd be willing to send/give a deposit or core fee for any items borrowed.
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Did you pull one plug wire at a time and check if you are getting a spark?
I had this happen to me as well but it turned out to be the fuel pump... I know yours is good.
Good luck
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Did you pull one plug wire at a time and check if you are getting a spark?
I had this happen to me as well but it turned out to be the fuel pump... I know yours is good.
Good luck
All plugs getting spark. Removed from engine, and grounded against shock tower mount bolts. All producing great spark.
The one thing I didn't do, since it's in storage, was throw a timing light on this thing.
I'd imagine even at slow cranking speeds I'd be able to see an... erractic light pulse?
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I'm with Geoff on this one.
you have done everything that I would have done including shooting starting fluid straight in to intake.
ECM's aren't hard to find on the cheap so I'd try that?
Now on to your glove box? Makes me think of a treasure chest?! Who knows what's in there?! Get that open asap and tell us of your riches?!
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I'm with Geoff on this one.
you have done everything that I would have done including shooting starting fluid straight in to intake.
ECM's aren't hard to find on the cheap so I'd try that?
Now on to your glove box? Makes me think of a treasure chest?! Who knows what's in there?! Get that open asap and tell us of your riches?!
Yeah I'm going to just start looking for a known good ECM and try that first I guess. Any vehicle specific info I need to source a used one or is it just a matter of pulling a serial number or part number off of the existing unit?
Edit: If it's a production date thing it was built 05-28-1990
Anyone reading this have a good spare for sale or test?
As far as my riches go, with my luck I'm likely to find a live bear in the glove box after I've somehow managed to get honey on my back unknowingly.
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Also, no thoughts on my low-ish resistance result of 505ohms?
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Seems ok to me. I think the spec is 540 +/- 60 ohms.
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Still looking for an ECM for my gal.
Think I'm going to stop at foreign car parts on the way home and pick up a crank sensor even thought it's within spec.
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I was able to test out two different ecu's during my no start. They unfortunately were not the issue. Try posting on forums that you only want to borrow, I paid for shipping only on mine. Local parts place would not allow me to return electronic parts after purchase.
I had a CPS that would pin out ok but was not opening and closing for some electrical reason. I'd remain focused on the puter and the cps.
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I was able to test out two different ecu's during my no start. They unfortunately were not the issue. Try posting on forums that you only want to borrow, I paid for shipping only on mine. Local parts place would not allow me to return electronic parts after purchase.
I had a CPS that would pin out ok but was not opening and closing for some electrical reason. I'd remain focused on the puter and the cps.
So you were getting fuel like my situation but the CPS was still at fault?
A member on this board has a puter for sale for 45 bucks. If for nothing else probably worth it just to have a spare.....
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Also check the distance between the sensor and the teeth on the tone wheel. I don't know the spec offhand though.
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Also check the distance between the sensor and the teeth on the tone wheel. I don't know the spec offhand though.
I couldn't find a spec either....
I did clean the sensor tip off, and used a little emory cloth to just clean the surface rust off the tone ring teeth.
I really with I still had a graphing multimeter and could watch the digital signal on this thing....
EDIT: Just ordered a cps from foreign car parts. It's an aftermarket. I know the guys down there pretty well, said they haven't encountered any issues with selling this aftermarket unit. It's still 90 bucks though, and it's being transfered from the warehouse so I'll be able to pick it up on way home after work. The bosch sensor would have taken 7-10 days to get, and lets be honest, at this point I'm impatient haha.
If by some miracle this aftermarket cps solves the problem I'll let you all know.
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So I'm in the garage as I write this. Installed new CPS. Same no start condition. Getting discouraged....
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Double post.
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Have now also drained the tank. Given it 4 gallons of fresh 91, cranked car while supply line off rail and let purge line into a drain pan. Reconnect supply line and try to start. Remember, I'm cranking with dry plugs and letting the cylinders dry out between tests also.....
No difference to report.
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Dont give up Dusty! I got super discouraged many times, thought I tried everything, brought it to a mechanic, he had it for four days, still no luck, couple of tow bills and then after more than six mths of nothing I brought it to another fresh set of eyes, he hooked a computer up to it and found it in a hour. It was the damn cps that three other qualified people had checked. Just keep running through all the major sensors and input, you will find it! It will make your week, even your month. It made me realize how important sticking to the basics are. If nothing else, you will know your M42 really well and you'll love it even more. :D
Make sure you try everything anyone suggests, even if you think you've done it.
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Dont give up Dusty! I got super discouraged many times, thought I tried everything, brought it to a mechanic, he had it for four days, still no luck, couple of tow bills and then after more than six mths of nothing I brought it to another fresh set of eyes, he hooked a computer up to it and found it in a hour. It was the damn cps that three other qualified people had checked. Just keep running through all the major sensors and input, you will find it! It will make your week, even your month. It made me realize how important sticking to the basics are. If nothing else, you will know your M42 really well and you'll love it even more. :D
Make sure you try everything anyone suggests, even if you think you've done it.
Haha, thanks for the encouragment. I agree, that the basics is where it's at. That's what led me to drain the tank last night. The wet plugs didn't smell like fresh gas to me. Took a look at the tank, drain plug still had factory undercoating on it, and had never been pulled! Drained tank and there was a distinct discoloration to the fuel, and just didn't smell strong (condensation anyone???). It made no difference though as I suspected it wouldn't, but it's something else to check off the list.
Another task performed last night was removing the ICV and bench testing. Got nothing out of it... appears dead. I'm assuming the WOT start test would bypass the ICVs usefulness and still allow to start if everything else was ok?
Another oddity last night. I actually got one singular exhaust pulse/puff out of her last night. Heard that "ignition noise" and then a monster can that happened to be 3 feet away from the exhaust started rocking back and forth, almost falling over. Wasn't a fireball or anything like that, just something I noted.
Intake may be coming off next. Judging from the ICV hoses, I'm sure to find other cracked/nearly broken vacuum lines. Thinking of trying to figure out my own vacuum distribution block to clean up the nest underneath.
I have from tomorrow till Jan 3rd off, with mulitple days free. So I may just be holed up in the garage trying to figure her out. If anyone nearby wants to come by and lend an eye/ear and wants some food and beer, by all means let me know.
EDIT:Something else to keep me busy I think. Found what I believe is an aftermarket Alpine alarm system under drivers side knee bolster along with a switch wired to it for some reason.... I did not recieve any remotes for this system. I don't feel it's the culprit, as I'm getting spark and usually those interupt ignition.... Still, it would be good just to remove anyhow.
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What brand was the aftermarket CPS?
Also, a dead ICV can cause a no-start condition because it is supposed to be open part-way to admit air during the cranking process. You might be able to remove the ICV from the hose circuit and start the car.
My friend who is a mechanic always removes aftermarket alarms whenever there's a problem starting a car.
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What brand was the aftermarket CPS?
Also, a dead ICV can cause a no-start condition because it is supposed to be open part-way to admit air during the cranking process. You might be able to remove the ICV from the hose circuit and start the car.
My friend who is a mechanic always removes aftermarket alarms whenever there's a problem starting a car.
Think the brand for AM CPS was "Forecast".
I did exactly just that, and removed it from the equation just to see if any change at all, which there was none :(.
I am going to remove the alarm. Maybe that'll be my next project. I'm trying to keep from touching too many things at once to eliminate myself from being my own enemy and problem generator. Change one thing, put it back, move on.
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Facet seems to be the popular CPS brand that I see the most.
BTW, the air gap spec for the M20 and M50 engine is 1mm +- .3mm
Good luck with the alarm removal.
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Facet seems to be the popular CPS brand that I see the most.
BTW, the air gap spec for the M20 and M50 engine is 1mm +- .3mm
Good luck with the alarm removal.
I did notice the Facet branded one also.
Thanks for the gap spec. I'll try to hunt down the m42 one. I can tell you just from installing that sensor last night thought that it's air gap is MOST deffinitely larger than 1mm when installed....
Possible for CPS to see some signal to turn on the pump, but not see a clear enough digital signal to time correctly? Who knows.
I think I need as much luck as I can get with this one!
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FYI, I was reading another thread where a guy replaced the CPS several times with aftermarket sensors that read too high (900+ ohms). Finally a genuine BMW sensor worked. So you might want to see what the resistance is on the sensor you just bought.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1680085&page=3
As fars as your question, who knows! I've also heard rare cases where the harmonic balancer came loose or even delaminated against its rubber, resulting in an inaccurate CPS signal.
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Yeah I've gone over just about everything....
Have a few leads out for puters right now. Going to grab one as a spare if nothing else. Also have to try to find a ICV and fix all the vacuum hoses.
EDIT:Picking up known good puter after work. Hopefully I'll have time to instal on Monday and see if it helps.
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I hope a new computer does it for you. I am kinda leery of an aftermarket
one, hopefully you can get your hands on a good original one. Cleaning up the mess of hoses under the intake "may" not solve your main problem, but it is a great way to eliminate about 300 possible vacuum leaks..and I have found vacuum leaks to be a problem for these cars when all that stuff is original.
Geoff
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No updates to report. Haven't been to my garage where the car is stored. I did pick up a known good outer and icv on Friday after work. Might make it down to change them in next day or so. Hope everyone had a good Xmas.
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How did you check the fusible link? Visually, or did you check for 12V at the second, smaller terminal block up on the firewall above the main one?
When you crank it, can you smell raw gas in the exhaust, or if you pull a spark plug is it wet with fuel? It sounds like fuel is not being delivered. This could be from a bad pump, clogged filter, dead pressure regulator (unlikely) or bad connection in the injector wiring harness.
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How did you check the fusible link? Visually, or did you check for 12V at the second, smaller terminal block up on the firewall above the main one?
When you crank it, can you smell raw gas in the exhaust, or if you pull a spark plug is it wet with fuel? It sounds like fuel is not being delivered. This could be from a bad pump, clogged filter, dead pressure regulator (unlikely) or bad connection in the injector wiring harness.
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Welp..... I'm almost ready to give up on this car. Known good and correct puter and icv in her now. No change.
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Have you checked the engine ground to the frame rail? Sometimes the wire is completely rotten under its plastic insulation.
Also check the ground point near the ECU. It's a bolt that has numerous brown wires attached to it.
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Have you checked the engine ground to the frame rail? Sometimes the wire is completely rotten under its plastic insulation.
Also check the ground point near the ECU. It's a bolt that has numerous brown wires attached to it.
I did check the engine to frame rail ground. It has a good connection and virtually 0 resistance when ohming out.
I did not see the ground by the ecu you're talking about though.... ill have to take another look at it tomorrow. At this point I'm really not expecting a ground issue as everything is functioning.
Anyone have known good afm, Bosch crank sensor or tps? Running out of ideas.
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Bummer...is it possible the exhaust is blocked by a bad cat or something along those lines...
Geoff
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Bummer...is it possible the exhaust is blocked by a bad cat or something along those lines...
Geoff
Bummer is right. Haha. Don't think the exhaust is plugged. When you put your hand over exhaust while cranking get strong exhaust pulses of air/fuel mixture. Maybe ill pull everything from the headers back off, just for the sake of ruling it out.
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Bummer is right. Haha. Don't think the exhaust is plugged. When you put your hand over exhaust while cranking get strong exhaust pulses of air/fuel mixture. Maybe ill pull everything from the headers back off, just for the sake of ruling it out.
Here's a quicker easier way if you have the tools (if not, it's a good excuse to buy some more:D)
http://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-a-catalytic-converter
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those are good ways to tell, but unfortunately they rely on the car running
Geoff
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Well after all my chasing I believe I found the problem. Borrowed a brand new MAC compression tester. Cylinders #1-3 all have less than 45psi and #4 had 130psi. In addition to this, all cylinders except #4 had droplets on the piston crowns. I had originally thought it was normal residue you find on older engine components, but now appears to be water. After this I removed the brand new radiator and dumped it out into a clean 5 gal bucket. Nice new coolant then all of a sudden....... oil sludge! Whomp whomp. Everything is off and out besides the head itself as I didn't have the correct star sockets for the headbolts with me. I suspect this thing has been over heated badly and given a decent warp of the head.
Exhaust cam has a decent score on it as well as the corresponding #2 bearing journal it rides in. Machine shop flapper wheel may be able to clean it up, too soon to tell though. Debating what to do for cams and a headfasket as I'm debating a small Turbo setup since its all apart already.
Pretty upset now cause I've been chasing a ghost. Compression test was first thing done and now looks like the original gauge used was faulty.... at least I've learned alot so far though!
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those are good ways to tell, but unfortunately they rely on the car running
Geoff
DOH!
Again...:o
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i hate those problems that lead you all around and you wind up back where you started..very frustrating indeed..well at least you found the problem, and now fixing it should be fairly do-able...one of my pet peeves is diagnostic tools that give the wrong diagnosis, and another is new parts that are low quality compared to the one you have...unfortunately, that seems to be a wave of the future
Geoff
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All of us who wrench our own cars have been in this position so don't beat yourself up about it.
My worst was the Audi A4 1.8Turbo we bought for our 16yr old before we had the 318is drop in to our laps. It would start, run for about 5seconds and die... After reading one cause after another i ended up replacing the ECM, the fuel pump/filter, pulled and had the nozzles cleaned, bought two MAF's(one cheap jap and a brand new OEM$!), plugs, wires, coil packs, etc... All this and the car still didn't run longer than 5seconds.
It was the plenum that comes from inter-cooler to feed side of turbo... It had a nasty tear in bottom where you couldn't see and I picked that part up used for $28...
(http://www.a4mods.com/pics/turbo/IMG_0888.JPG)
At 1st i was somewhat depressed and pissed at myself as I had leaned over and visually inspected the intake hosing but never physically removed to inspect and ended up with a few $'s spent that I didn't need to but what I gained from that(as you mentioned above) was a lot of experience/knowledge.
The car ran exceptionally after all the updates.
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Haha. Thanks for the kind words.
I'm no stranger to the chasing though. I used to be a Ford mechanic. Ever since working for the dealer I've vowed to never own another one.
Been playing with subarus for almost a decade now, and that's another fun car to put you through the ringer (granted none of mine have been stock at all).
Next time I'll make sure to do a compression check with two gauges though, learned my lesson on that one....
Hopefully pulling the head tonight. I don't have a straight-edge and doubt I'll make it to the machine shop before it closes tonight. Hopefully I'll be able to update on what the headgasket looks like though.
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Pulled the head off last night. Cylinders number 1,2, & 3 all were bright and shiny clean (piston crowns and clyinder head combustion area/valves) from the steam bath they were given for I-don't-know how long.
Won't be able to make it to the machine shop till this weekend at the earliest. Next weeks task will be to clean up the nest under the intake manifold.
I'll have to take a look around in some build threads, but does anyone ever build thier own intake manifolds for these cars?
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So as sad as I am, I may be forced to sell this toy. Haven't had time to work on it, as I've been working to complete my rotated turbo setup on my legacy GT wagon. Also found out that the woman and I have another little one on the way, so it seems sensible to scale back a project. So if anyone is interested in a good parts car pm me (even though she is way too nice to be called a parts car). I say parts car now because there are some issues with the paperwork for this vehicle that have surfaced. It's not stolen (CT Troopers VIN checked), or salvaged, but there's no title now. So even if I finish her she'd be an auto-x or track car.
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Sad to hear that - the little BMW is a truly sweet driver's car. It's a toss-up though. With the title issues, likely head replacement and general unknowns, the BMW is heading well into the red. If it was me, I'd procrastinate! ;D Fix up the Subie like you said, then reconsider where you want the BMW to be.
BTW - I'm pretty sure you can drop the glove box door by unscrewing the four little philips-head screws above it in the dash. Sometimes that'll give you enough wiggle room to push the latch catches in with a screwdriver or long pick. The catch has a cheap pot-metal actuating lever that tends to crack. You can replace it pretty easily - the latch unscrews from behind the glove box door and comes apart into two pieces.
We've had great luck with Subarus as well. I've considered an XT6 or SVX on several occasions...I love the oddball cars. I very nearly bought an EJ22ET Legacy GT once...while they're not very powerful in NA-spec, it'd be fun regardless. My wife drove a nice old Impreza LS automatic for years, perfect match for her. I mainly recall it being terrifically easy to work on. And oh-so-slow. We sold it to my FIL and the little teal beast runs on and on. I'm not even sure how many miles it has...but I'm sure it's over 200K by now. I occasionally ask if she'd like a newer one with more letters on the trunk... ;)
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If you lived close to Dayton-Cincinnati Ohio I'd be there.
As of right now I could loan you the torx socket you need to get the head off and repaired. That'll save you a few $'s
Congratulations on the new baby!
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Sad to hear that - the little BMW is a truly sweet driver's car. It's a toss-up though. With the title issues, likely head replacement and general unknowns, the BMW is heading well into the red. If it was me, I'd procrastinate! ;D Fix up the Subie like you said, then reconsider where you want the BMW to be.
BTW - I'm pretty sure you can drop the glove box door by unscrewing the four little philips-head screws above it in the dash. Sometimes that'll give you enough wiggle room to push the latch catches in with a screwdriver or long pick. The catch has a cheap pot-metal actuating lever that tends to crack. You can replace it pretty easily - the latch unscrews from behind the glove box door and comes apart into two pieces.
We've had great luck with Subarus as well. I've considered an XT6 or SVX on several occasions...I love the oddball cars. I very nearly bought an EJ22ET Legacy GT once...while they're not very powerful in NA-spec, it'd be fun regardless. My wife drove a nice old Impreza LS automatic for years, perfect match for her. I mainly recall it being terrifically easy to work on. And oh-so-slow. We sold it to my FIL and the little teal beast runs on and on. I'm not even sure how many miles it has...but I'm sure it's over 200K by now. I occasionally ask if she'd like a newer one with more letters on the trunk... ;)
Thanks Dave. Believe me, I'd like to procrastinate.... and I usually do, haha. I have a DD 05 civic for the commute (83 miles each way), a 66 beetle that I've been re-doing, the 05 LGT wagon that I love and is almost complete once again, the e30, 2 motorcycles, and soon to be 2 sons! Enough to keep any man busy for a lifetime pretty much.
I HAVE actually have a 91 Legacy SS. Have that awesome little car for two years. Ended up going a TMIC conversion since stock they are non-intercooled. Did a 20G turbo setuo on it, as well as many suspension and power upgrades. I loved that car. I've also built a turbo-ed 98 forester that was about 2 inches off the ground (suspension, subframe, and body modifications to do so), turbo-ed/modified imprezas, and a wrx. I've been doing the subaru game for a while, and been able to enjoy a few oddball cars as well. I've always wanted an XT6 or a 4wd loyale!
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I HAVE actually have a 91 Legacy SS. Have that awesome little car for two years. Ended up going a TMIC conversion since stock they are non-intercooled. Did a 20G turbo setuo on it, as well as many suspension and power upgrades. I loved that car. I've also built a turbo-ed 98 forester that was about 2 inches off the ground (suspension, subframe, and body modifications to do so), turbo-ed/modified imprezas, and a wrx. I've been doing the subaru game for a while, and been able to enjoy a few oddball cars as well. I've always wanted an XT6 or a 4wd loyale!
Amazing how great minds think alike, eh? ;) I didn't think anyone knew what those were, just a few Subie guys. The one I missed out on now has some twin-turbo mod from a Supra IIRC.
Just wondering...but how do you raise a Forester? Is there some taller spring/strut option, or did you mod the suspension arm? I'll tell you why I'm curious...my wife wants a sport-ute and I'd rather she didn't. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm not keen on a truck-like C-O-G. Let alone that a Forester is so much more of a practical car than all the other station wagons out there. They're cute & maneuverable, great for the rare occasions I must commute & parallel park them.
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Speaking of Subaru's... I own a 2011 Impreza 2.5i. It's my 1st Subaru i've owned.
I always wondered if it is possible to squeaze a late model STi motor in to a Mk1 Justy or Brat. Is that even possible? :)
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Just wondering...but how do you raise a Forester? Is there some taller spring/strut option, or did you mod the suspension arm? I'll tell you why I'm curious...my wife wants a sport-ute and I'd rather she didn't. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm not keen on a truck-like C-O-G. Let alone that a Forester is so much more of a practical car than all the other station wagons out there. They're cute & maneuverable, great for the rare occasions I must commute & parallel park them.
I think you misunderstood me, I had lowered mine substantially. However, raising them is just the opposite of lowering. Instead of cutting/removing the subframe spacers, you weld in taller ones and add a longer strut and spring combination. Then, just like a truck, you can add larger tires that tailor to your needs. My friend and I lifted one of his 92 legacy SS and he was eventually able to fit the equivalent of a 30" tire under it!
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Speaking of Subaru's... I own a 2011 Impreza 2.5i. It's my 1st Subaru i've owned.
I always wondered if it is possible to squeaze a late model STi motor in to a Mk1 Justy or Brat. Is that even possible? :)
Yes, you could fit that motor in either of those two cars, the latter being the easier of the two to swap (obviously space-wise). There are people on forums who now make a living doing harness merges for people doing swaps. Send them your body harness and late model engine harness, couple weeks later they send you back a merged harness to plop into the car. The service on average will run you 600+, but from results I've seen it's well worth it.