M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine management => Topic started by: Gunni on December 15, 2006, 07:03:11 AM
-
Alright,
since this is real easy, everybody has the same engine,
probably running similar sensor configs and so on,
This should make for good info for others wanting to go for standalones,
Also if anybody has the original maps they should of course be uploaded,
Iīll go first with my ign map,
(http://www.gstuning.net/files/images/standalone/ign.jpg)
How this works is ..............
The values in the ign maps (tps vs. rpm) are coupled together with the values in the amp (map sensor) table (wich in this case is in 0.15bar - 1.1bar absolute)
Example
RPM 2500 , throttle 31% , value is 32 , this will be 32 at 1bar pressure but will be 41 at 0.5bar pressure (32 + 9 = 41), Iīm not using the iat yet but itīs the same there, you can take out or add ignition based on pressure and air temp
Those numbers probably donīt look anything like a MAF map, MAP map, TPS map, as itīs all relative to the system, but they do give an idea as what they should be, you obviously canīt be at 25% throttle with 1bar absolute ,
and so and so.
-
Also in that picture the throttle range from 22% to 77% is the range from 0-5v my TPS puts out, i.e 1.1v-3.85v is the range my TPS works in, so there is no
misunderstanding.
-
ok, i don't have the computer on me that has my maps on it, mine are 12x12 and MAF based though. you not getting pinking on load at under 2k rpm?
-
no not really , but the pinging does come above 2000rpm but I havenīt tried the latest fuel map yet. so it might be gone now
-
I donīt see anybody posting anything in here ;)
Letīs go !!
-
Well, lets start with stupid questions (I don't know any others) by asking that what programs and cables are you using to extract those values from the EMS?
Please, could you elaborate little bit about your first post regarding the explanation of readings in the tables? I did not understand jack shit.
I really would like to learn to tune the engine management system by myself, but I don't no where to start...
-
Itīs not from the original motronic,
itīs from my standalone system,
reading those values can only help if you have a similar system or can calculate them over to whatever system youīd be running
-
Guys!
I canīt be the only one thats posted anything yet.
I need to see what you guys are using to compare,
-
Guys!
I canīt be the only one thats posted anything yet.
I need to see what you guys are using to compare,
Honestly, if i knew anything about this i'd post, but i don't so i'm gonna walk away.
-
This is the best image of the ignition map i could get.
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/bar73k/IgnitionMap.jpg)
-
is 107% load 20psi?
what is the load measuring device, map , afm , tps, or what
-
This thread confuses me, but I will still keep checking on it, as very recently I had the urge to turbo my car and will need some sort of EM.
Maybe some basic walk-throughs of what equipment you have and runthrough of procedures? Or just links.
-
What is confusing to you?
I wouldnīt be considering turboing unless you are ready for all the cost.
Also you might very well consider having a local or semi local tune shop do the engine management for it as well,
-
is 107% load 20psi?
what is the load measuring device, map , afm , tps, or what
the load is Throttle Position 107% is WOT
-
there must be a another map that has something to do with manifold pressure?
as you can have 0-20psi at WOT
-
XMS3? which standalone system is it???
IIRC, the MOTec and Haltech interface are much more comprehensive (READ: Not exactly user friendly)
-
Itīs from Perfect Power in South Africa,
Itīs quite capable aside from intake air temps input is not used for fuel calculations only ignition.
-
the same company making the SMT6 which I'm using... but I think there's too few map points (8x16) to fully optimise the engine performance.. basically it has the same number of map points as the SMT's
-
Itīs fine, when they intergrate interpolation in between the cells it will be fine,
a 8x16 map will actually become 64x128 in total assuming 8 points between cells,
also they have a MAP compensation that helps as well
-
there must be a another map that has something to do with manifold pressure?
as you can have 0-20psi at WOT
yeh im still trying to find that,
i have found something but cannot make sense of it...
-
does anyone have maps for MS1 v3.0?
tia
-
does anyone have maps for MS1 v3.0?
tia
ttt MS is on the way to my house :cool:
-
do you have the fuel maps too, i am currently trying to run mine with mega squirt V3, and having a nightmare doing so, so i think a fuel map would help me out.
cheers, steve
________
Coach handbags (http://icoachhandbags.com/)
-
That is going to be diffrent, you should use something close to that top map for ignition, remember to account for the pressure changes in that map against what your setup is (MAP vs. RPM for instance)
If the ignition is good enough then fuelling is easy.
donīt you have wideband?
-
no dont have a wind band just yet, and i have the motronic doing the ignition, i am just trying to do the fueling first, cos i thought i can do less damage with fueling if i get things wrong.
steve
________
No2 vaporizer reviews (http://no2vaporizer.net)
-
Youīll never get anything done with a narrow band only.
Spring for a wideband controller right away
-
i'm having trouble just getting it to start tho, i had it going at one point when i adjusted the warmup enrichment, but then it just dies again.
steve
________
Coach handbags (http://icoachhandbags.com/)
-
Get a wideband. you should not mess with the warmup enrichement until you have gotten the car to start.
just keep adding fuel slowly until you hear the car start to catch,
but first of all get a wideband.
without one itīs almost as driving with your eyes closed
-
Little update.
Iīve been having stumpling issues from day one,
plenty timing advance has always fixed that. but Itīs been ridicoulus.
I was at 40degree at WOT , at any less advance the car would stumple.
now that is just silly.
So I uploaded the latest map and changed the ignition refrence.
I put it at 90 degrees before tdc and WOW....
Before
hard to have free revs unless timing was really advanced,
It only wanted to rev under load.
idle was iffy and took long to stabilise.
Now :
All is good apart from the idle wich I need to re configure again,
the fuelling has to be raised now as it was idling at 18afrīs just now.
It also pulls VERY well now, and Iīd never imagine a M42 working like this.
Iīll do some gtech runs very soon to check for any diffrences
As I was driving around and trying to loosen the back end, I came quite hard up to a wide well open turn and it went sideways like never before,
I wasnīt able to catch it fast enough, it spun a 360° and I tried to cath it on the rebound but that also failed as I was on the throttle spinning the tires the whole time. And then it stalled, I was quite happy to be honest
with itīs capability to spin the tires.
-
Im not sure this has occured to anyone, but when tunning an Engine management system you dont just tune the map, there are also offset table for temperature compensation and the main trigger offset(Im not sure what it is for an M42). This trigger offset is the degrees differece from when the ECU gets pulsed to when TDC actually is, this is for the sync sensor. Now all the values in the table get added or subtracted to that base offset and temperature compensation applies to that. From my knowledge this is how the majority of engine management systems work, Autronic, Motec, EMS etc.. So purly showing your ign map really doesnt mean anything without information of at least you offset setting. I may be wrong when it applies to some brands of ECUs but it is usually a relative value not an exact value.
Any thoughts or opinions
-
Itīs true but thats why itīs everybodies responsibility to be sure of there offset.
The ignition refrence is always there on all ecuīs,
-
Anyone know what the offset reference angle for the standard M42 sensor is?
-
Iīm using 90° BTDC.
While somebody else is using 124° I belive.
-
my problem is that i cannot even get her to fire up with the MS doing fuel only, does any one have like a base map and setting for M42, i did alter the warmup enrichment alittle, and it suddenly started and ran for about 30 mins, but then died again.
steve
________
PAXIL LAWSUIT SETTLEMENTS (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/paxil/)
-
my problem is that i cannot even get her to fire up with the MS doing fuel only, does any one have like a base map and setting for M42, i did alter the warmup enrichment alittle, and it suddenly started and ran for about 30 mins, but then died again.
steve
Hi steve, do you have you wiring diagram of your MS installation? Are you using oem sensors, like throttle body sensor, or from other cars?
thank you
-
wiring is very easy. diagrams are on the MS site http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm#ew
(http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/v3ext_wiring.gif)
I shared all bosch sensors and calibrated them to the MS, although you can use GM sensors which is the easiest way.
Am playing with SMT6 and MAP at the moment, not too happy with it yet though.
-
Tim the XMS would work well for you, even the cheaper 4cyl only version
TPS vs. RPM over MAP compensation.
-
This is the best image of the ignition map i could get.
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/bar73k/IgnitionMap.jpg)
What is this from? Is it a stand-alone, or did you manage to get it from the stock ECU chip?
I have dumped HEX files from my stock chip. What program is that you took the shot from?
-
I'm stuck on a couple of items. What colors are the TPS wires? What did everyone set their crank settings to? And there is some concern as to whether the injectors should be wired 1-2/3-4 or 1-4/2-3.
-
Tim the XMS would work well for you, even the cheaper 4cyl only version
TPS vs. RPM over MAP compensation.
maybe. I liked megasquirt a lot, both the hardware and software are excellent.
the SMT6 I'm not so sure about. I'm finding it hard to get this conversion map from AFM to MAP perfect; it doesn't drive very well at all on the MAP sensor at the moment, but the map does need more work. I wish the software was better, this whole process could be automated.
-
I am curently using the SMT-6 and dont like the resolution. Not enough to compensate for variations in engine speed. So I bought a Halteck E8 system and will be using it with a MAF and not the MAP. Go get a Mercedes e320 cdi MAF gives a 0-5volt signal and can flow enough to support any engine set up. Just my 2 cents.
-
yeah, im not a big fan at the moment. Check this out:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/ts295/pp.jpg)
Why does 91% deflection and 2737 rpm make the site in the red the active site? Surely it should be at 86% and 2738 rpm! I'm close to ripping the SMT6 out and buying another MS. The PP works very well for straightforward stuff - the timing control is good, and tuning AFM to optimum AFRs. i'm beginning to think i made a big mistake going for the MAP conversion, I think i was influenced by gunni's reports of good progress and various other conversions and thought it was a good idea. i'll keep tuning the voltage conversion map thing, and hopefully i can get it closer to mimicking the AFM and see how i go, but stuff like the above makes it near impossible to tune accurately.
-
what you are supposed to do is try and get as close as you can,
after that you can drive the car and re adjust,
Why those look like that I canīt tell,
-
yeah, i thought that was going to be the case, but I think it's going to be a bit more tricky than that. I got a lot of sites pretty good but then the transitions on the map aren't good. This causes an oscillation in the output signal that the motronic doesn't like. If I then smooth the map out its not as close to the orig output of the afm. If you look at the above the red is the PP output, the green the AFM output. As you can see the AFM output is much smoother, even though the blue (the MAP input) is pretty smooth. you can also see just how different the MAP output is from the AFM. I'm thinking MAF would be a lot easier.
Even stuff like idle isn't very good at the moment. I've only started working on it from the weekend, but it's not looking too promising. it's going to need a lot of time mapping it, and i think it will never be as good as the AFM. the car drives, but doesn't feel as good as motronic anywhere, whether in town or cruising.
As for why it keeps on choosing the wrong site, I'm completely at a loss. But it does it a lot!
Not impressed overall :(
Gunni, I can show you my logs and config etc if you're interested? How did your map and logs look when you converted to MAP?
-
Canīt help you there,
I didnīt need to log all that much, just messed with the voltages and after a while both the bars where overlapping eachother,
to bad I never got around to test drive it like that
-
how 'nice' did the output look gunni? mine looks fine if you're smooth with the throttle, otherwise it behaves like the above. you any tips/advice? I don't have the WB02 hooked up tio it yet, after I've done a bit more work on getting the voltages matching I'll hook up the WB and try some proper tuning.
I've just enquired to get a price for an MS2, i'm tempted to try the new extra code and forget all about this.
-
It looked very smooth, altough I did notice MAP really is inline with TPS movement, those curves where almost identical,
you must remember that MAP and TPS are quicker to respond then the AFM,
so if the AFM signal looks to be behind that only means that youīll see better throttle response afterwards when the fuel is squirted sooner.
-
hmm, well the signal from mine is ok, a bit unstable at idle. It's not as smooth or accurate as the AFM though. The output signal from the SMT is even less smooth, as you can see in the log above. The MAP sensor doesn't seem to respond any quicker than the AFM on the logs, if anything its slower, and i may have to add a restrictor and plenum to the vacuum line to smooth off the oscillations in the idle. What MAP sensor did you use? I'm using a standard GM MAP sensor.
Tuning using the wideband is going better than trying to match voltages, although i don't know whether i'll be able to get this setup as good as factory because the output voltage from the SMT is not as smooth as the original AFM output.
Got a quote for MS2 yesterday, am VERY tempted by MS2 with the new extra code. would like to see this through first though.
-
I used a 3.5bar sensor , same sensor as used for some nuclear stuff,
I got if from Zeitronix,
-
I've just begun to understand why I'm seeing problems. I didn't realise that the values of the analog deflection map on the SMT are not interpolated. This is a big problem. I'm going to try to use the 1x16 temp map to help. Any other suggestions gunni?
-
to add to my woes with the SMT6, just removed the MAP sensor and plugged the AFM into the SMT6. Now with a completely blank map and the input and output voltages according to the SMT being the same under all conditions, the car runs lean on WOT and feels a bit crap all round. PP is wired into the ECU power and ground so there should be no problem there, and i didn't appear to have this problem when the MAP sensor was the input to the PP.
-
That is odd,
do you have the correct mode on in the global settings,
the SMT might be thinking your AFM is a Frequency MAF unit
-
nope, afraid not :(
I've since got it working a lot better - simply increasing the base offset for fuel calculations (forgot what it is called!) up a bit helped. Needed to then do some tweaks to get the AFRs where i wanted them, but its ok now. I really would like to get to the bottom of the problem though, it does seem very odd that a zero'd map wouldn't give factory performance. I'm shortly going to try a MAf, I only have a spare 76mm one atm, not a 67mm so it will have to wait a bit.
-
Well whatever you do you have at least tested and tried more solutions then most ever will and thats some good home schooling ;)
-
Please, do inform from where you have extracted the maps you are showing.
Furthermore, don't explain things to yourself but open up the issue bit more that it actually could be understood by other readers (and amateurs...)
-
Are you reffering to me?
If so I belive I posted everything needed to know in the first page
-
seems to be a pretty open discussion to me, if there is any info required feel free to ask! yeah gunni i agree about the learning, i always wanted to try the SMT as i jumped straight in with the MS. am a bit happier with it now, but I must admit it's really made me appreciate the qualities of the MS. I think I'd like to try MS again, but I did find it hard to get it to start and warmup as well as factory which are the areas I'd need to work on. With the SMT I think I really need rid of the AFM, but I'm a bit concerned that I won't get it to drive properly on MAF - time will tell.
-
Re-opening an old thread,
what ignition maps are people running these days?
the map below is my ignition map im running
its from a wolf3D Ver4 (completly standalone ECU)
running in my e30 318is m42 turbo
the left hand column is load which is 0~107%
this load is calculated using throttle position and a map sensor (manifold pressure)
at 107% load i am at WOT and 22Psi pressure
there is no second multiplyer table, the computer calculates everything
so if i run 10Psi i might only reach 78% load (not sure exactly what i reach just guessing here, but if i run less boost, then the lower part of the map is only used)
all values are Deg before TDC
im wondering if i can push my values a little more
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/bar73k/IgnitionMap1.jpg)
-
Does anyone have MegaSquirt maps for fuel & ignition?
Actually any software will do. I'm just looking for maps that are MAP (KPa) vs. RPM instead of load% or throttle position.
J.
-
anyone?
-
seriously. Nobody out there is gonna help me out with this?
Do I need to start throwing a hissy fit? :)
-
http://inspire86.blogspot.com/search/label/megasquirt%20settings
http://team-racing.blogspot.com/
Here are two links to our BMW 318is projekt. The engine is a standard M42 with MS1 and seq. ignition with the stock ignitioncoils. Here you can find at least basic spark and fueltables for your engine.
-
Looking for M42 fuel map for MS .... using 28# injectors and just need a base map so I can drive around ... thanks