M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: Gunni on December 06, 2006, 04:12:39 AM
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So the engine didnīt want to start at all,
Plenty spark -
Fuel to the rail -
12v over the injectors -
All wires looked intact -
Even the inside of the ECU looked fine -
Engine was able to stay alive with some starter fluid,
so it was evident it wasnīt getting fuel but everything else was working ( timing system it seems, idle circuit and so on )
Anyway on to more fun things.
I have in my shelf a XMS standalone system, I will be using it for something fun next year but why not use it until then right?
more info on the unit here - http://www.perfectpower.com/products/xms.asp -
Iīm going to run it alpha-n and use wasted spark for ignition along with batch injection , Iīll be using a zeitronix wideband kit I have to monitor the afrīs to begin with and use it as well for tuning, datalogging rpmīs, afrīs, tps , and egt if I had it, After I fully tune the engine the hard way (Itīs good to make this a good learning experience) Iīll switch the wideband sensor over to the XMS and use long term adjusting of the maps with the wideband , also closed loop as well,
Revlimit will probably stay the same, and the engine should be pretty stock running, altough the throttle response will be nuts, and the intake sound as well, Iīll get rid of the catalyst later,
I hope to have it at least ready to fire tonight,
Iīm wiring in the wideband and wiring the standalone as well, the few remaining wires,
Iīm also waiting on the timing wheel info from Tim_s if I donīt get it I will just count the teeth,
Few notes :
I will not be using a linear rev range, nor a linear throttle range,
more definition in the lower rpms and throttle regions and less in the higher where air flow doesnīt change as much with little throttle, this should aid in getting good drivability, will be using the stock 2 wire idle control valve as well, altough it will be shut off just for the initial setup, so it it does die the engine will still keep alive,
Anyway more info tonight and how things went,
Also a nice thing is, if there is something wrong with the engine or sensors the standalone will show it instantly when I try and crank,
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Sounds like a fun project gunni! If my calculations backwards from my MS are correct, the VR sensor is 124 degrees at TDC. I'd check by counting teeth though dude, its been a long day, I just opened an msq and did some quick sums. What settings do you need for the XMS? Maybe you ca directly import my settings - I've checked them with an advance timing light and they are spot on.
Intake sound on standard engine with no restriction can be quite fruity, mine certainly was with a drain pipe between the throttle below and the air filter housing.
Would be quite interested in seeing some screenshots of the XMS etc, see how it compares to the MS in terms of datalogging and analysis software, AFR target tables etc.
I'm increasingly fond of MS these days as I learn its intricacies.
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All I need it to know how many degrees before the VR sensor is at TDC
wich should be 20,666 teeth if every tooth represents 6degrees?
Did you use the cam sensor for cylender identification
Iīll post some screen shots and info on the setup as it goes,
Here is the info from the manual
Start Logging
All inputs and readings from the unit are recorded to a file on the HD of the computer. The one format is recorded in a CSV (Spread Sheet Format) with calibrated values. The other format is in a raw non-calibrated format, which can only be used for playing back. The amount of recording time is relative to your hard disk space on your laptop. 216kb per minute or 1.4Mb for 6 minutes.
PLAY BACK (off Line)
A useful feature used to PLAY BACK a recorded run of a vehicle. This allows you to see the entire software package react as if it were running live on a vehicle. The recorded data can be paused, stopped and different screens can be chosen to optimize the information displayed to you. A useful tool to do fault finding in the comfort of your own office.
Loading a playback file
Once the playback button is clicked the following will appear over the main screen. To load a file click the Load Recorded data file. Here there will always be two different files shown. One will always have the text dump-coms written in. The other will have the log file that you wanted recorded. The difference between the two files is the dump-coms file records all info going into and out of the unit. This info can then be used to fault find any errors in the software. If any faults do occur please send this file to Perfect Power for analysis. The other file (XMSRaw003.RDR) is your actual recorded file. This file will record all Data and can then be played back in you own leisure. Once you have started and then stopped logging, a number is automatically assigned to your newly logged file. Every time you log a file the next numerical number will be assigned. Continuous logging will take place until your hard drive is full or the logging is stopped.
Iīm missing some wiring info on the perfect power ignition amplifiers Iīll be using so I donīt think I can do a test run tonight,
but am going to finish wiring the unit in along with the wideband controller,
I canīt read any MS files so youīll have to send me some screenshots from the config screens and or maps,
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Why the wasted spark setup? Just trying to make the already big tuning project a little easier on yourself? Which coils would you go with? The M42 stockers might not work for that if you paired them up...they might not have been designed to be fired that rapidly.
EDIT
Read the specs and it looks like it is pre-config'ed for WS. The external coil drivers are not hard to do though.
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Iīll be using the stock coils, and sources tell me they will work,
I have the external units with me, I just didnīt have the wiring ,
12v, ground, trigger, to coil, so I didnīt want to damage them,
I decided against the ecu adapter and just cut up what I had done and also the loom, I sourted the wires into groups where they will connect into the xms, I connected the 12v and ground to the unit and made the ignition changes needed to be able to run the M42, I also put in some ign numbers that should allow the engine to rev so I can fine tune them and preferably move the car,
Tomorrow Iīll get the engine going, finish the rest of the car and hurry up tuning it on the road, I expect that the car to be very drivable before the weekend is over,
I need my garage to do a M30 swap for a customer, who will also be getting a XMS unit, just the L version, less ignition outputs, and fewer auxilary outputs,
While Iīm doing the customers car I will fine tune my car using datalogs,
If you guys want Iīll post up my maps when they are done,
Iīll be using stock sensors so they should transfer to other standalones pretty easily where stock sensors are also beeing used
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Just a quicky, havent had chance to read through the thread properly (in work), but I fire the standard coilpack WS and it works great. Also noticed that those datalog files from the XMS are huge in comparison to MS! Would like to see your maps when you're done, we can compare notes!
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Absolutly,
I donīt plan on beeing secretive about this setup as people with companies usually do, and the more info out there the better for the M42 community
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Iīll be using a zeitronix wideband kit I have to monitor the afrīs to begin with and use it as well for tuning, datalogging rpmīs, afrīs, tps , and egt if I had it, After I fully tune the engine the hard way (Itīs good to make this a good learning experience) Iīll switch the wideband sensor over to the XMS and use long term adjusting of the maps with the wideband , also closed loop as well,
Just in case for the people that don't know, the Zeitronix doesn't exhibit linear output reading like most of the other widebands out there. What this means is that you'll have to recalculate the datalogging figures if you were to share them with someone else for reference.
I hope this isn't a daily driver or you live in a decent climate with minimal changes if you plan on doing just closed loop. But if tuned right, closed loop can be awesome for gas mileage. Nothing like being able to lean it out past 14.5:1 and bump the timing up to the knock threshold during low load steady state cruising.
Looking forward to your progress.:)
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Iīm using it only to display the values trough itīs own screen or on my laptop,
not in the xms, xms will take over the sensor when mapping is done,
It will be my daily and thus give me maximum seat time with a standalone equiped car
Also the Zt2 does indeed provide linear output now,
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/widebandoutput.htm
When I was loggin the M42 last time it ran high 16īs and low 17īs AFR in
steady state driving, going down to about 13,9-14,2 at WOT
The engine has never had closed loop control , so maybe injectors getting clogged as the fuel was less then I assume BMW designed it for
Iīll wire the TPS, RPM, into the Zt2 to log those things as wel
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Iīm using it only to display the values trough itīs own screen or on my laptop,
not in the xms, xms will take over the sensor when mapping is done,
It will be my daily and thus give me maximum seat time with a standalone equiped car
Also the Zt2 does indeed provide linear output now,
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/widebandoutput.htm
When I was loggin the M42 last time it ran high 16īs and low 17īs AFR in
steady state driving, going down to about 13,9-14,2 at WOT
The engine has never had closed loop control , so maybe injectors getting clogged as the fuel was less then I assume BMW designed it for
Iīll wire the TPS, RPM, into the Zt2 to log those things as wel
It's good to know Zeitronix changed it. As for 16's and 17's afr, I'm pretty surprised it's that high on the M42 as I never really considered the M42 as fuel efficient as it could be. I'm willing to bet the EGT's are close to 1600 too during cruising.
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Yea I was surprisds as well,
It was pretty economical actually when I think about it,
Anyway a update,
Everything is wired up and ready to go, I configured the TPS, coolant temp (Iīll need to do it again when I get some more time) but when I was going to go trought the install test , one of the ignition amplifiers was shorting and almost became on fire, I was quick enough to remove the connection to the battery,
I traced it down to a GROUND in the C101 plug on the car side, in #20 , where the ABS 12v is supposed to be, so obviously when I first connected the C101 and gave it a try the wires shorted, the ground wires plastic cover melted and it bonded with the 12v red power cable that goes to the switch , and then returns as the green and green / yellow wires, This definitly fried something in the original ecu, and it was probably the injector drivers as that is what was missing all along
Iīm putting in my S50 air temp sensor tomorrow and then try and start it,
Yea also the wideband display . If all works, Iīll finish putting the bumper on, put in my checkerd seats and the solder the connections and then cover them with heat shrink , shortening and getting things clean there, then I can go out and tune the car,
If anybody has any maps from there tuning sessions put them in a separate thread so we can all compare notes,
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Good luck Gunni! Will get my sparks map up for you, will get you going, though its not perfect by any means. I also have the standard map for the m44 and a few other engines for reference.
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We have control people,
Iīve been fighting this death car for a few days now, turns out shit was clogging the fuel lines, and the fuel pump died eventually, I blew compressed air trough the lines and replaced the fuel pump, after that I was on the right track,
It starts and I have the throttle stuck a little open, it stays at about 1500rpm at the moment at about 30degīs, Iīll try and get the revs lower until I can get the icv to take over and maintain the idle for me,
As it turns out the unit doesnīt want to be a straight Alpha-n system,
it uses MAP for refrence, i.e at 0.5bar absolute, the fueling is 50% less then at 1bar absolute but doesnīt have to be you can adjust the scale anyway you like, i.e at 1bar absolute you can have it 60% more then at 0.5bar, so even if your at the same map point in the fuel map, as the pressure changes so does the afrīs,
The tps vs. rpm map is simply mapping of the character of the engine, so I guess wear and tear is thus covered,
to calculate a kpa vs. rpm map I would have to do some calculating,
ignition is what Iīm mostly interested in, fueling isnīt really hard at all,
Anyway here are two pics,
first is the unit wired up, Iīm missing a air temp sensor, but will wire that up tomorrow and make the loom all pretty and solder all the connections, heat shrink wrap them and make sure they donīt come loose,
the second picture is the new intake boot, itīs actually the airbox - afm rubber from a M30B35 735i E32 :) , I made a hole in it for the icv air passage,
I then stuck my "3 air filter on it, Iīll put a pipe on it and some brackety when shops open after the weekend
(http://myndasafn.bmwkraftur.is/d/28169-1/IMG_3205.JPG)
(http://myndasafn.bmwkraftur.is/d/28172-1/IMG_3206.JPG)
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I forgot to mention,
the crank setup is 20teeth before TDC, so I used 120degrees as the refrence,
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I went driving last night, at 120degrees refrence I couldnīt even accealare at all, at 60-65 it was similar, when we quit and I went home I raised it to 80 and 90 slowly, light load became real good and it could accelarate trough the light load revs real easy,
is it REALLY at 124degrees??
Iīm putting down a rod in to the chambers to make sure, something doesnīt sound right here,
Anyway when I do find tdc tonight Iīll post up my findings,
After that I should be able to drive it without bucking and stumpling
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I checked with a timing light today and running 0 advance I found that 115degrees was right on the money, I painted the tooth with the mark in it white and also the marking on the chain cover, under the light they where right on target
I was having serious problems with driving the car, and was actually getting pretty worried for a while, turns out I had the ignition order wrong,
I did what the injectors where, 1-3 2-4 are paired together and thus I did 1-2-3-4 , but the timing is 1-3-4-2 , so 3 and 4 where never getting spark on the right time, I swapped it just now and ran the engine, it was ALOT better,
Iīll have to trim down the fuel as my wideband was obviously seeing 2 cylenders sending out unburned fuel,
Anyway, tomorrow I should be able to finally do some real tuning,
Iīm also going to wire the injectors sequental as the wiring now is wrong,
they should be paired 1-4 and 2-3 , Iīll just go with the sequental,
Anyway, more later Iīll be able to post some maps soon
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I
I did what the injectors where, 1-3 2-4 are paired together and thus I did 1-2-3-4 , but the timing is 1-3-4-2 , so 3 and 4 where never getting spark on the right time, I
I admit I've done this before too. Glad to see you made some progress. :cool:
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Donīt you guys have maps to share?
If so post them in a new thread, also explaining any required calculations needed to find the actual timing or fuel values
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Glad you're getting there Gunni. I have maps I'm more than happy to share; im not sure how useful they'll be as their designed for the 2.1 with ITBs etc; plus they are for MAF. I think the difference between our figures is probably dependent on whether you're counting from the mid point of the missing teeth, the start, or the end.
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Share them Iīm just hunting for some ignition values,
my ign refrence is dead center of the marked tooth, so itīs in the middle.
124 is actually more then a tooth of.
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Gunni I'll sort out a stock M44 timing map for you when I'm on my home computer, will be more useful. I may be a degree or two out on mine, but certainly not a tooth; I set it up with my fairly crap advance timing light but checked it on a bosch dyno's expensive timing light setup.
Measuring like on this image of a 60-2 wheel, what measurement have you got?
(ignore the values, I just nicked it for the pic):
(http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/pix/60-2wheel.jpg)
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Why do all those pics show reverse rotation, unless your looking at it from the engine side,
the gap sits fairly center on the top of the whee,,
the timing mark is at the mark on the drivers side and the arrow is pointing at it,
the sensor sits real low on the passenger side, exactly 20teeth from the gap
should I be counting the 2 teeth as well?
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Not sure what you mean gunni, i don't think the image is in reverse rotation if you look at the engine from the front; watch the crank bolt as you turn the starter, its clockwise. explain what you mean?
As for the number of teeth, I'm not sure how you should count tbh dude, but as I suggested earlier i reckon that's where our discrepency is coming from. Mine's measured in the same way as the pic (the pic's from the MS site - I just followed instructions!), which would suggest I'm two degrees out.
I'll adjust accordingly, this has been useful! Sorry I'm not sure about yours, do your instructions make it clear?
It's cool you can do sequential injection, MS can't do that.
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Iīm wrong it rotates clockwise, nevermind that.
Iīm counting from the tooth under the vr sensor until the last tooth before the gap,
Anyway, I got a guy whoīs into these xmsīs systems to fix my map, as mine was all out of wack, the change is amazing, I added the extra fuel as mine was to low and now itīs very drivable, It hasnīt even had more then an hour of tuning yet, although that guy is just crazy good, and his map is spot on,
Iīm going to hook up the wideband to the standalone tomorrow for better logging and road tuning, Iīm pretty sure it will be very good before the end of the weekend,
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Let's have a look at this timing map then? I've found off- and low-load low rpm timing the most tricky; also high load low rpm is difficult - with the fuel i'm using it feels well retarded and sluggish there even when only a degree or so off DBL.
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Iīll post it up tomorrow with explanations, you might also want to trow yours up , and also who ever had MS and M42.
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Iīm wrong it rotates clockwise, nevermind that.
You my friend have Honduh syndrome. :D
Gunni, when you get your map sorted, I'd be interested to see how your throttle tip in characteristics are.
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you mean fueling while I jerk the throttle?
Iīll set that up when Iīm done with the base line tuning,
Didnīt you have a MS M42 ??
If so post up those maps in the thread I made
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Iīve been trying to tune a little and little when I get the chance,
now the afrīs are in the 15-18īs depending on load, extremely low load like coasting down a hill are in the 18īs, while coasting is in 16īs and general driving is about 15īs, I need to tune the WOT for low 13īs itīs mid 14īs now so Iīm not stomping on it.
I must add that the car pulls very well , not below 4k but around and above it pulls well to 7k.