M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine management => Topic started by: fast2002 on June 21, 2012, 10:38:47 AM
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Where can I find a supercharger new or used? bbsports@msn.com
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Downing Atlanta makes the only bolt on supercharger for our cars. They use the Eaton M45 if I am not mistaken. So if you are creative, you can make your own. I would not pay more than 800 bucks for a used one, However on ebay, I just saw one go for 1800 bucks with well over 150K miles. Honestly, I would put a s52 in the car. More power for the money.
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God luck finding anything close to a full kit for $800, and for those who want to keep the balance of the 4 cylinder weight, there's nothing wrong with keeping your m42.
DASC kits used the Eaton m62 similar to the merc c230 unit.
My DASC M44 e36 kit on my M42 e30 project car:
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/darkandroid1234/dasc.jpg)
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is it the idle control valfe on the top?? if so where does the hoes go that curves to the left side??
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It doesn't look like his is connected yet. On the original kit, it plugs in where the original ICV connected. If you emliminate the mess under the intake, I believe it plugs into a connector on the boot between the throttle body and the AFM.
is it the idle control valfe on the top?? if so where does the hoes go that curves to the left side??
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It doesn't look like his is connected yet. On the original kit, it plugs in where the original ICV connected. If you emliminate the mess under the intake, I believe it plugs into a connector on the boot between the throttle body and the AFM.
thank you for the reply.. I will be doing the same job next week actually.. I had a eaton m90 thunderbird cs kit..
I have two questions: 1) where does the pipe that goes into bypass walve comes from?? I mean where will I I take the boost for bypass??
2) It is possible to put a boost gauge on a SC system?? If possible where and how??
thank you for your anwsers..
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There are boost/vac ports on my intake, icv goes to intake boot. Boost gauge is easy, tee in anywhere after the point where s/c pressurizes air.
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I'm probably misunderstanding your question but the ICV outlets before the SC but the bypass would be open while idling. Under the ICV is the bypass path. The bypass is external on the SC Downing Atlanta did. I think some newer units have it in the SC housing.
thank you for the reply.. I will be doing the same job next week actually.. I had a eaton m90 thunderbird cs kit..
I have two questions: 1) where does the pipe that goes into bypass walve comes from?? I mean where will I I take the boost for bypass??
2) It is possible to put a boost gauge on a SC system?? If possible where and how??
thank you for your anwsers..
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here is what I am wondering.. I put ared arrow on the pipe and I am wondering where it goes...
(http://www.tinyphoto.net/thumbnails/d413c6b787706117b18c76dc04e53f9c.jpg) (http://www.tinyphoto.net/show-image.php?id=7382364f57020e7e33c04146686a98ac)
and here is the SC kit I will install..
(http://www.tinyphoto.net/thumbnails/167750da87a029f43aedb48b11b59df7.jpg) (http://www.tinyphoto.net/show-image.php?id=d8ceeadb6e84047e9112942439b077be)
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That looks to me like a vacuum line that is used to control the bypass.
It can tap into any other vacuum line. I'll try to get a picture of where
mine goes later today.
here is what I am wondering.. I put ared arrow on the pipe and I am wondering where it goes...
(http://www.tinyphoto.net/thumbnails/d413c6b787706117b18c76dc04e53f9c.jpg) (http://www.tinyphoto.net/show-image.php?id=7382364f57020e7e33c04146686a98ac)
and here is the SC kit I will install..
(http://www.tinyphoto.net/thumbnails/167750da87a029f43aedb48b11b59df7.jpg) (http://www.tinyphoto.net/show-image.php?id=d8ceeadb6e84047e9112942439b077be)
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That looks to me like a vacuum line that is used to control the bypass.
It can tap into any other vacuum line. I'll try to get a picture of where
mine goes later today.
I would really appriciate it.. that is wxactly a vacuum line to vontrol bypass and ı need to know where it comes from...
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actually I saw a photo on the net that show the pipe I showed goes somewhere just after the throttle body.. but I believe it should go somewhere in the intake manifold.. I am really confused....
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I didn't get a chance to take a picture yesterday but I did have a look. It does go to a port on the throttle body. That is correct as you want it before the supercharger.
actually I saw a photo on the net that show the pipe I showed goes somewhere just after the throttle body.. but I believe it should go somewhere in the intake manifold.. I am really confused....
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I didn't get a chance to take a picture yesterday but I did have a look. It does go to a port on the throttle body. That is correct as you want it before the supercharger.
here is another mystery :D what do you mean by It goes to a port on the throttle body
ı saw it goes somewhere between throttle and supercharger.. never saw somewhere on the throttle body.. Luckly I still have time to do it.. tomorrow I am starting to make the flanges for supercharger.. but not more than one or two days.. If you have a chance to tka a picture during this time I would really appriciate it..
by the way if you have a boost gague I also kindly want its connection photos.. :D
thank you for your help..
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here is the picture I saw its connection.. only question is that if it is true or not??
(http://www.tinyphoto.net/thumbnails/7bdc46d7fd79611f1a73c69ce560ff64.jpg) (http://www.tinyphoto.net/show-image.php?id=3e9bc784dc5c644b76768d25511c3e66)
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https://picasaweb.google.com/116146659082281745739/M42DASC
There are a couple of the connection to the throttle body. I don't see it on the diagram at realoem.com but it appears to be a factory connection.
Also noticed one ICV hose is about to let go...
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I couldnt mount/fit the supercharger since the nose/snout part is too long.. :(
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That snout looks like a bolt on piece, maybe the manufacturer can point you to a shorter one?
I couldnt mount/fit the supercharger since the nose/snout part is too long.. :(
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That snout looks like a bolt on piece, maybe the manufacturer can point you to a shorter one?
yeah I saw some shorter ones on the internet but they are too expensive.. I will have it shortened by a CNC or lathe (turning machine)...
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ı had it shortened at last.. ı wanna ask a question.. is it possible to set the kit on the engine and go without changing the injectors and stock ECU?? or do I have to make some certain changes after installing supercharger??
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With no tuning at all you will not make good power and you will run way lean on any throttle load that adds more then 5lbs boost. At bare min for 5-8 lbs you need a wideband, a fuel pressure gauge, and RRFPR. Preferably wideband, FPSI gauge, 22-24lb injectors, and an RRFPR or a piggyback ECU such as SMT6.
Another good idea is to move to a colder plug. There is a good NGK plug to run if you are s/c, it's stocked at local parts houses and cheap! NGK V-Power BKR7E, all 4 are less than $8. This plug is one heat range colder and will make your car less likely to detonate with 91-93 octane than the standard number 8 range plug. I run these, and they are doing great.
Experimentally speaking, since my car is a very cheap project and I am still building, I read up on a car that is turbocharged and running on factory motronic and upgraded injectors. I will be trying 22lb injectors with no tune as I have read it worked so well on this guy's car. I can't say it's unsafe, it is a track car boosting 7lbs with no tune and 22lb injectors, and it has been as such for 20k miles without trouble.
I have a wideband and therefore can test without risk of blowing it up. Right now I'm untuned and have done my research I just want to stay cheap while the car is in build. I will move along to MS or a piggyback eventually but I do want to try the method I read since I have an RRFPR sitting here for when I get my fuel PSI gauge if the injector upgrade runs lean. I'll report back when I can get to a junkyard and pick up a set of injectors.
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I think some people would be interested in how you had it shortened. I know I would be.
I think you can start the car on the stock setup but I wouldn't drive it around like that for long. Mine pings or knocks ( I have no idea which it is) pretty badly at part throttle with bigger injectors, whatever the fpr with vaccum adjusted pressure, and some random after market chip. The stock ECU will handle closed loop okay.
ı had it shortened at last.. ı wanna ask a question.. is it possible to set the kit on the engine and go without changing the injectors and stock ECU?? or do I have to make some certain changes after installing supercharger??
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You can run it, and you can drive it with bypass open/set to 3-4lbs but do not let the AFRs go too lean. I run mine and it doesn't ping too badly with my plugs and my o2 sensor going rich due to age (it's a bad narrowband), I havn't installed my wideband yet but have been forced to drive the car due to family needing my daily. I have never heard detonation actually, which doesn't mean it's not there, I know. It is obviously not properly tuned though, it lacks power and it doesn't feel right.
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thank you to all who sincerely answered my questions...
1) how did we shorten it? :) I found a lathe/ CNC repairman who accepted to shorten it.. no other repairman accepted by the way.. there is a long shaft that turns two gear on the body of the eaton m90 you know.. and there is one front bearing and one rear bearing and the space between two has no function.. what we did is to shorten this space both on the shaft and on the snout part.. we had it about 4,6 cm shorter and now this is enough to mount it on the engine for me now..
2) the question about running the car with stock ECU? well actually I have a cheap ebay chip which runs better when compared to stock one but I am not sure whether it will be enough not to run lean...
3) another issue is that I am running the car with LPG and I have the opportunity to send more LPG from the LPG injectors.. please correct me if I am mistaken but the idea while tuning the car is that not to make it too lean or rich.. maybe not in the oil but in the LPG I can do this just not the give detonation. I mean not for a perfect tuning..
4) another issue is I havent activated the setup yet.. I just mount it on the engine and havent given the boost into the engine.. the problem is that I do not know or anticipate how much boost it gives now.. any idea to calculate it is welcome..
looking forward for your precious answers..
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Have you checked Eaton's site for info on calculating the boost based on pulley sizes? I'm pretty sure I saw that information there.
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no.. :D but I will immediately... thanks..
edit: now I looked at it but couldnt figured out what they mean.. :( and it gives a mistake..
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This should get you started... :D
You need a few measurements, in metric or standard:
-crank pulley diameter
-s/c pulley diameter
-engine size (M42, correct? If so, 1,796 cc)
-valve overlap (not sure where to find M42 stock cam specs)
With this information we can calculate boost and estimated power, but first let's just get boost in PSI:
(http://www.texify.com/img/%5CLARGE%5C%21BoostPSI%3D%20%5B%5Cfrac%7B%28P%2AB%29V%7D%7B%5Cfrac12C%7D-B%5D-L.gif)
Variables:
P = pulley ratio, crank pulley diameter divided by s/c pulley diameter.
B = atmospheric pressure of the air outside (standard is 1 bar which equals 14.7 psi).
V = the volume of the blower for one rotation. (Eaton M90 is 1475cc or 90ci)
C = engine capacity in cc (m42 is 1,796 cc), which is divided by 2 since for one rotation a four stroke engine is only half way through each cycle.
L = allowance for boost lost due to valve overlap, ~5% boost loss per 10 degrees of overlap.
Just plug in the numbers and follow the order of operations. I always said college algebra was going to be useless! I do not know your level of education, if you think this is too in depth just get the required measurements and we can work the equation.
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well.. I am an English Language Instructor at a University in Turkey and I am pretty good in maths but there are some unknown parts for me... I am giving you the numbers in bold on your answer..
This should get you started... :D
You need a few measurements, in metric or standard:
-crank pulley diameter 11cm
-s/c pulley diameter we are trying to find this for 0,5 bar
-engine size (M42, correct? If so, 1,796 cc) totally correct
-valve overlap (not sure where to find M42 stock cam specs) I also have no idea about where and how to find it
With this information we can calculate boost and estimated power, but first let's just get boost in PSI:
(http://www.texify.com/img/%5CLARGE%5C%21BoostPSI%3D%20%5B%5Cfrac%7B%28P%2AB%29V%7D%7B%5Cfrac12C%7D-B%5D-L.gif)
Variables:
P = pulley ratio, crank pulley diameter divided by s/c pulley diameter.
B = atmospheric pressure of the air outside (standard is 1 bar which equals 14.7 psi).
V = the volume of the blower for one rotation. (Eaton M90 is 1475cc or 90ci)
C = engine capacity in cc (m42 is 1,796 cc), which is divided by 2 since for one rotation a four stroke engine is only half way through each cycle.
L = allowance for boost lost due to valve overlap, ~5% boost loss per 10 degrees of overlap. this is the only thing I can not put on the formula you gave
Just plug in the numbers and follow the order of operations. I always said college algebra was going to be useless! I do not know your level of education, if you think this is too in depth just get the required measurements and we can work the equation.
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I can't find overlap numbers either! I am trying to find them! For now I have chose to use .05 for a 10 degree overlap which is a reasonable expectation for most average engines. You said you were shooting for a half bar of boost.
So, running the formula for a few sizes of pulleys:
estimated pulley size (cm) = approximate boost (psi)
6.75 = 22.5
8.5 = 15.4
9.5 = 12
10 = 11.3
11.25 = 8
Without getting too overzealous with pulley sizes with your Eaton m90 we can get 8 PSI with a 11.25 cm pulley which is good for 209 horspower to the crank, which is about 170 horsepower to the wheels, considering 17% drivetrain loss to be conservative.
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perfect information.. thank you very very much.. actually the pulley m90 has on is about 8 cm if I am not mistaken but I will change it no problem..
now next question is.. I have a cheap ebay chip on my car and considering 8 psi, is it a must to tune the car in order not to run it lean?? or is it enough for me since the sensors like O2 will adjust the mixture?? I mean is O2 sensor capable of adjusting the mixture for 8 psi??
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The sensors are not able to make up for running much boost, the narrowband o2 cannot richen the mixture appropriately. The chip you have is WORSE than no chip at all because it adds timing, which is the opposite that you want on a boosted car since more timing will increase the odds of detonation. The factory systems can only compensate for about 5psi.
I posted earlier on some tuning options, but as I said I am going to try simply adding a wideband o2, 22 or 24 lb/hr injectors, and BKR7E plugs (already installed). I will see what kind of air/fuel mixtures I see. Planning on having a somewhat rich idle with that setup, but that's ok for now. My s/c kit uses nothing but a rising rate FPR to support the boost fueling, but I do not have it because it was missing from my car when I acquired it. I will do what I just said, then if I am lean, I will add a vortech SFMU I have after I rebuild it.
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so what would you recommend me for now since I couldnt afford all of them at the same time... the plugs are no problem since they are cheap but the injectors and wideband are expensive...
If my chip is worse than the stock one should I go on with stock?? and as I said earlier I can increase fuel on LPG?? is it a good idea to change the LPG injector nozzles with bigger ones not to run it lean at least??
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Yeah, if you can run a richer LPG a/f ratio go for it. Until you can afford all of it, get the plugs and a wideband, then you can drive the car with richer LPG mixture to be safe until proper tuning. The LC-1 from Innovate Motorsports is a competitive price and will double as a replacement for the factory o2. Plus, if you have a wideband and can adjust your fuel delivery (via LPG nozzles etc.) then you can get a baseline as stands. Go stock for the chip for now, last thing you need is more timing until you get a real tune.
Stoich with LPG is 15.7:1, you want to be much richer than that. Keep bumping fuel up until you get a WOT air/fuel ratio of no higher than 13:1 and you will be rich at low rpm, but safe. Only expense to running this rich with only baseline tuning is you will go through maintainance items faster such as plugs and oil.
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thank you for all the information.. now I will start dealing with the pulley and other small issues first and try to buy an AFR as soon as possible..
the last thing I would like to ask is that what is the advantage of these BKR7E plugs for a boosted car??
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NGK V-power BKR7E are a colder heat range by one measure, which means less chance for detonation and proper combustion chamber temperatures, and since you will have a mixture that is richer for boost you will need to replace plugs more often and these are super cheap and high quality.
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thank you for all the holy information you gave me until now.. I will share my project here when it is finished.. wish me luck friends..