M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => General Topics => Topic started by: tfrain on March 08, 2012, 03:31:11 PM
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So I replaced my resistor. Actually I had to rig up some electrical tape to cover the top of it as that piece of plastic that spans across UNDER the white connector on the motor was broken, and speed 3 would stop working when the cover was installed. Just pushing it a little would apparently cause a short or something somewhere. Anyway, the fan is now working, HOWEVER.
I noticed previously when I hit recirc button I could still smell outside air and it did not blow any harder than previously. While under the cowl, I realized the baffles under there weren't working. I cannot for the life of me figure out what mechanism is supposed to close them. I could not see or feel anywhere where there would be a hard connection to them. The one on the passenger side was sort of "stuck" in the open position. It felt like it was supposed to be in that position if that makes sense. It was mechanically designed to be "stuck" in that position. The driver side was not "stuck" in the open position but had the same detent or whatever.
Where the heck is the disconnect on these things? I'm a fairly decent mechanically minded person, but I couldn't figure the damned things out!!. I hear something moving under the dash and then stopping when depressing the recirc button, then the same thing when you turn it off.
I was thinking of removing the radio and seeing if I could see if something was disconnected.
I would appreciate any help from someone more knowledgeable on this system.
THANKS GUYS!
Tom
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I thought there were two electrical servos on the rear of the HVAC box for the recirc switch. Lemme see if I can get to my old spare & I'll snap some pics.
***edit***
That's definitely the way it is. There are two servos, that pull pushrods, that open the doors.
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Thanks Dave. Since my initial posting I had ascertained that there were two motors that are supposed to open/close these flaps. I have some questions. I can hear the motors actuating what sounds like a flap, but when I have the cowl open, nothing is happening on that end. My main question has to do with the CONNECTION between the motors and the flaps on the blower housing. HOW IN THE HECK DO THEY ATTACH TO THE FLAPS???!!!??. I cannot for the life of me figure it out. I can feel no hole, no bracket, no nothing that some sort of armature would attach to. I can see a white plastic lever assembly INSIDE the flap area - you can push the flap up to "Lock" it in the open position. Or you can move the flap down to let it sort of just hang there, semi open. I believe there is something missing from the blower housing area but I just can't figure out what it is. I'm going to take the radio out to see if I can see it in there, but I just can't seem to see either the route by which a linkage would connect to those flaps. I'm also linking to a photo I got off off e30tech showing the whole shebang. The red arrows point to the flaps and the motors that move them. The blue line is the part I don't get - how the motors attach to the flaps at the flap side. I'm trying to avoid pulling the whole freaking motor out to figure out what the deal is here.
Also, just so I understand - number 3 in the photo - those are referred to as "fresh air flaps" - which means the flaps which distribute air to the vents on the dash, correct? They have nothing to do with recirculation in the car, right? They are moved by the control levers, not these motors, right?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14399250/HVAC%20E30%20arrows.jpg
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Ok so I messed with it more last night. Removed the OBC and the Radio. I can see that the passenger side motor is turning the linkage, but it doesn't appear to be connected to anything on the blower housing end. It pushes a rod up behind the heater core. I was finally able to see a little hole up behind the bypass flap on the blower housing. A little square maybe 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch hole. I assume that is where some sort of linkage is supposed to come up and mate with the flaps. There is nothing coming out of that hole now, AND I could not feel anything on either flap that would be indicative of some sort of connection. No tabs or holes or linkages or anything on that flap on either side.
The driver side motor did not turn at all, but has the same linkage there.
So:
1. Is that little square hole on the motor side of the flap, on the floor of the housing, the hole where the linkage is supposed to go through?
2. How is this missing linkage supposed to connect to the flap?
3. I can't seem to find any parts or diagrams or anything indicating what should go there. I'm guessing something is missing and would appreciate if anyone knows what this part is to let me know.
4. I'm assuming I will have to, at a minimum, take out the blower and housing to get to this area and can't fish something through there.
5. Will taking the driver knee bolster out be enough to reach and replace the driver side motor (after I test electrics to it of course)
6. It would be bobo, but I I have half a mind to just get a choke cable or something and rig it up to just the driver side baffle and run it out down by my leg or something where it would not be unsightly and close up the passenger side baffle. The only time I would really care about getting fresh air into the car is when defrosting on a humid morning, and I could just open it up manually when I need to do that. Again, this is very bobo or janky or buddy or whatever you want to call it, but it would work.
Any comments or suggestions are appreciate.
PS - while in there, I discovered why the top control lever for the vents was unlit. The fiber optic cable to it had been cut. I pulled out the cable through the little whole in the clip, removed the metal crimp on terminator, pulled the length of cable from the light diffuser that was still transmitting light, and just rerouted it where it will run above the levers (instead of through the dedicated path), and put the terminator on the newly fished, lit up, cable. I armored it with electrical tape since it will be sliding back and forth across the bottom of the radio now. But now ALL MY LIGHTS WORK!. This has been bugging me.
Thanks,
tom
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bump
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Does this help?
(http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/561en/images/5611204.jpg)
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I noted a pushrod on my actuators that goes right to the flaps. It doesn't go down to the heater core at all.
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Thanks Colin. Unfortunately, that schematic looks to be for the "Fresh Air Flaps" that direct air to the ducts that blow on your face in the dash.
My issue is with the "Bypass Air Flaps" - click my dropbox link above and you'll see what I'm talking about. The flaps up around the blower housing. There are two motors that move two rods that go up under the heater core (at least I think they do - they bend where they go up behind the plastic housing and stuff there against the firewall) and act to push upon the flaps up on the blower housing in the cowl. At least it appears they do. That is what I am trying to figure out. There are two square holes in the bottom of the blower housing inside where those flaps are that it APPEARS should have some sort of rod or arm or something that goes back down to meet up with the arm from the two motors right behind the radio. It also APPEARS that there would be some sort of attachment point on the flaps themselves, but I can't feel or see anything of that nature.
I'm hoping someone has dealt with this before and knows what is up with my bypass flaps and what parts I need to fix it.
Again, thanks for taking the time to post this. I really appreciate it Colin.
Tom
Does this help?
(http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/561en/images/5611204.jpg)
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So Dave, yours goes straight from the motors up to the flaps by the blower?
My pushrods (they look like oxidized galvanized metal to me) go back towards the firewall, then appear to make a sharp turn upward behind a bunch of plastic stuff, which I assume to be the heater core housing. Based on the location of the square holes in the bottom of the blower housing, they pushrods would have to go under the heater core, right?
Does what I'm saying make sense?
I'm leaving my dash and all taken apart while I try and figure this out. Driving my Civic to work. Having an extra car sure is nice!
I noted a pushrod on my actuators that goes right to the flaps. It doesn't go down to the heater core at all.
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Colin - on that link you sent with the photos, I found this:
(http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/561en/images/5611213.jpg)
and this:
(http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/561en/images/5611214.jpg)
I can clearly see both motors as shown on the bottom left photo in the second picture. It runs forward under a hexagonal shaped metal rod running across the car, driver to passenger side, and the pushrod disappears behind this.
The bottom right picture of the ball and socket joint. Where the heck is that connection!~?!? - once I find that out, I can hopefully make some headway. From the description onthese pages, it appears that both the fresh air flaps and the bypass flaps are operated by these pushrods. Is that true?
I am confused as hell by this thing!
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Hi, glad you were able to navigate the linked pictures. I have never really messed with the HVAC box, so I'm just as confused as you!
It would make sense that a single device operates the fresh air flaps and bypass flaps. Outside (fresh) air is either admitted or is excluded from the system, but not both.
Anyway, best of luck and hope you are able to post up a solution soon.
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Ok - so I took out the knee bolster and the pedal panel thing. I still cannot see where the rod connects. It is clearly loose or broken as it will just wiggle around in there. Both sides will. Does anyone know where this rod from the motors is supposed to connect? Is there some sort of connection outside in the blower motor housing, or is the only connection to these rods inside the cabin? I still cannot figure out how the freakin baffles on the motor housing are supposed to work.
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I have a complete HVAC case out of an older e30. Let me know what you need pictures of, I'm a bit confused as well.
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in this photo:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14399250/5611214%20circled.jpg)
where does the rod indicated by the green arrow terminate? What is it attached to on the end where the arrow is pointing? Is it supposed to end at the flaps out on the blower motor housing in the cowl? If so, I can't figure out how?
IF the red circled box shows where these rods attach/terminate, where the heck is that? My rods are attached at the motor, but I can flop them around with my hands, so they are unattached to whatever they attach to because I am ALWAYS getting fresh air in the cabin.
Thanks Dave!
Tom
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Mine look a bit different than the example above. This box came from a '91 325i IIRC. OK, here they are:
Rear view, driver's side:
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/th_IMG_0191.jpg) (http://s729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/?action=view¤t=IMG_0191.jpg)
You can see the rear of the pushrod snapped into the electric servo. It heads forward above the heater core box.
Side view, driver's side:
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/th_IMG_0190.jpg) (http://s729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/?action=view¤t=IMG_0190.jpg)
Looking at it from the driver's footwell, you can see the servo on the right, and the rod heading behind the left-hand duct.
Flap view, driver's side at firewall mount flange:
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/th_IMG_0193.jpg) (http://s729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/?action=view¤t=IMG_0193.jpg)
This is the view from outside the car...those nuts you see are the ones that hold the flange onto the car's exterior...firewall/cowl/plenum/whatchamacallit. The pushrod clips to that plastic arm and actuates it.
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Thanks so much for doing that dave - sincerely -
Mine looks just like your pictures. No pushrod attached to anything. So does the pushrod attach to where my arrow is pointing? Does the pushrod have a bend in it that goes into that green looking compression fitting? Correct me if I am wrong, but your flaps, if installed in a car, would not work either as the pushrod is not connected to the flap, right?
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3446629/flap%20arm%20edit.jpg)
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There's actually two flaps there. I'll see if I can get a better picture. The pushrod goes from the actuator to a flap that's connected to the flap you see with that white plastic pushrod. Looks like a biplane wing, almost.
The actuator opens the lower flap, the white linkage closes the upper flap at the same time.
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/th_IMG_0195.jpg) (http://s729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/BMW/?action=view¤t=IMG_0195.jpg)
This is the end of the linkage on the lower flap. The black plastic on the left is the underside of the mounting flange. You can also see the left foam gasket to the upper right. Installed in the car this would be right at the firewall, just inside the cabin, well inside the dash.
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Thanks Dave! I was just logging on here to post what I found out. I ended up just pulling the whole freakin thing out. Had to pull the blower motor to get the upper housings out as it spans across behind the motor. Those holes I thought were for the actuator rod were actually holes created when the bottom flap you are talking about were broken.....on both sides.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14399250/.temp/2012-03-21%2023.25.57.jpg)
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On the driver side, the broken ball joint thing is still attached to the rod:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14399250/.temp/2012-03-21%2023.26.32.jpg)
But on the passenger side, it is missing:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14399250/.temp/2012-03-21%2023.29.06.jpg)
sort of related, you can also see how the lower housing is all mangled. I guess the original motor disentegrated or something as the current motor has yellow paint pen on it...but there was no rubbing or noise so I'm not going to worry about that part.
So this leads to numerous questions.
1. Well not really a question, but...I'm going to pick up one of those flexible springy grabber things with the three little prongs that come out and see if I can't fish around within the housing and find the broken piece to the passenger side. That would be the easiest and cheapest for me.
2. What sort of plastic is this and what sort of epoxy or adhesive or glue or whatever can I use to reliably and permanently glue to broken part back on? What solven to use to prep the plastic beforehand? I'm probably going to take it by a fastenal store to see if they can assist with that.
3. Lets say I CANNOT find that missing ball joint piece. Would it be feasible to permanently close off the passenger side with silicone or adhesive (lock the flaps closed) and only utilize the driver side for fresh air? Honestly, all I want fresh air for is for defrosting purposes on humid days or in the winter. Would one flap give enough you think for that?
3.1 - The driver side motor for the flaps is kaput. Will the passenger side motor work on the driver side if I close off one side?
3.2 - If motors aren't interchangeable, where do I find that part?!
4. What can I use to restore the corroded foam on these? Would have to be some thin stuff. Or should I even bother?
5. OK, lets say I can't find the missing piece, permanently closing one isn't a good idea, so I need at least a passenger side upper housing. Where the heck do I find that thing?! I find nothing on Google.
6. Dave, would you willing to part with any of that magnificent example of blower housing goodness you have there? I bet you are keeping it for a spare :)
I thought I had other questions, but I guess that is plenty, huh! I'll say this, hopefully some other poor schmuck on the interwebs will be able to find this thread when he gets to looking at the same issue later. I guess that is kinda the whole point of forums, huh?
Dave - thanks so much for taking those pictures for me. What is your favorite place to eat. I need to get you a gift card or something man.
Tom
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I remembered my other questions:
7. That wire harness going above the passenger side pushrod. That seems like it would eventually rub a hole and short out. Dave, does your have a wire running through there like that? All I can think to do is armor it with duck tape and zip ties or something.
8. Any suggestions for cleaning the heater core out down there? it was pretty gunky and i brushed/vacuumed out what I could when i changed the resistor. Isn't there some sort of spray or something to eat all that sticky dusty gunky crap like you use on an a-coil in a house HVAC? Or is that a bad idea in here?
9. What else should I do while in here? I read something about the elephant trunk or elephant hose or something? I don't have any leaks into the cabin that I can speak of or know about. It has only been in the rain like 3 times. I know the trunk has a leak somewhere around the tail lights but that is it. Anything else I need to address while it is all opened up?
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argggggg! The part number should be here!!
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=64_0514&hg=64&fg=15
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looks like parts 04 and 05 are the actuator and connecting rods and they are universal. But there is STILL no number for the bypass flaps - part 08 is the stupid plastic connector thing between the two flaps, but no flaps?!?
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=64_0525&hg=64&fg=55
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I wasn't keeping it as a spare. Not that I'm saying "eat your heart out" but I have two...I suffer from this version of hoarding that makes me keep everything e30 that nobody else wants...I'd send the whole deal your way for like $25, but it's a mess. Heater core is dead, as is the condensor. Case is likely the only good part and it's covered with mildew. Shipping would likely be expensive...where do you live? Maybe we can work something out.
No problem with taking the pics (I re-organized my stuff so it was all good)...but I like sushi...and beer...LOL!
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my zip is 38632. Would you be willing to take parts off or do you only want to move the whole thing?
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Small parts would be a lot cheaper to ship...lemme know what you want.
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I still want to put 12v to my motor to make sure that isn't a wiring issue, BUT:
At least:
1. Both flappy/bypass/recirculation doors (I guess four flappy doors really as they are connected)
2. One of the actuator motors - if you think it works
3. One of the little tie rod end/ball socket things off the actuator rod
If easier for you to just pull it all off and send it:
1. Both the driver and passenger side upper housings with the flappy doors attached
2. Both actuator pushrods with the little tierod end thing attached
3. One of the actuatator motors - if you think it works
My driver side housing that holds the drivers side flaps is a little chewed up from where the fan must have disentegrated previously, but it still works ok. I don't really have to have the whole thing, and I'm not sure if you wanna retain what parts I don't absolutely need for yourself or someone else or not. Physically, probably easier for you just to pop the retaining tabs, pull off the whole housing, pull out the rods, and chunk it in a box. It is up to you. Whatever is easier for you. I really appreciate it! Let me know how much I owe you, and make sure you include some cushion for your time!
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PS - I'll get 12V to that motor tonight so can let you know for sure tomorrow that I need a motor......
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I need the motor. Let me know when you can get the stuff sent and how much I owed you. I sincerely cannot tell you how much I appreciate it!
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Gah...you're cutting into my quality e24 time!
Just kidding...I'll let you know what I can fit in a box & PM you my PayPal info.
You know, everything for a 6-series costs like 3x as much, right? Looking at it that way, you're actually saving me money. I should be paying you!
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Ha ha - thx Dave! Did you know that Bob Lutz had some influence on the E24? I did not know that, but wikipedia did? I bet stuff is mucho expensive for your 6-series. Lemme know how much you need for the parts. I'm ready to get my car back together. The civic just isn't the same! I ordered a new radio and speakers for the back deck that I'm going to do while I have the dash apart.
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You guys ROCK!
I have been having a similar problem for the last two years! Started off with fog in the car in winter, so of course Blunt sent me a new heater core. No difference. So then I took my stereo apart to see if my extra wiring back there got in the way as I started to notice outside smells when recirc was on.
This thread gives me new stuff to look at.
Thanks!
John
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yep - pull your radio, hit the recirc button and see if it moves the two motors behind there. If they move, then pull your cowl cover inside the engine compartment and see if there are two holes in the lower flaps. If so, yours are broken like mine. It is a little trouble to get the motor and the upper plastic housing out, but it is possible. It is a lot of trouble for just getting recirc working, but I like for stuff to work!
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Dave - I'll PM you my address. thanks, Tom
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It is a lot of trouble for just getting recirc working, but I like for stuff to work!
I hear ya. My car is very clean and un-molested so I'm salting to think its the wiring from the stereo.
John
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I hear ya. My car is very clean and un-molested so I'm salting to think its the wiring from the stereo.
John
Mine is fairly unmolested. Not modifications at all, just broken stuff here and there. See if both of the motors are working when you hit the recirc button. If they are, you can see if they are still attached by reaching in where you took out the radio and GENTLY wiggle the pushrods. If they are just all flopping around towards the front of the car, they are probably broken at the flaps. If they give a little, but are firmly attached at both ends, they are probably still good and your problem might just be the seals or gaskets on the blower motor. They are attached via a ball and socket joint at the far end.
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Hey Dave - the box got here yesterday and all was in very good condition. No shipping damage. I think you packed it very well. I don't see how you got all that in that box, however, because once I unpacked it, I couldn't get it all back in. My wife wanted me to take my "car crap" back to the garage last night... ha ha ha. Anyway, it all looks great and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you getting this together for me. Honestly, above and beyond. You are a good man. I installed one of the motors last night, but the battery is dead on the car (left the glovebox open like a dummy), so I'll have to test it tonight maybe. Hopefully one of them will work. The baffles and pushrods and all are in good shape as well.
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I finally got all this fixed and just wanted to post a few photos and comments and such.
First of all, my thanks again to DesktopDave for sending me the parts. It helped me out tremendously.
First of all, here is a picture of the rebuilt housing cover. I used some open cell foam weatherstripping stuff I got at autozone in a roll for $10. It worked pretty well. Not like stock exactly, but it functions.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3446629/2012-04-10%2019.09.54.jpg)
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One of the baffles had a crack in it at the connection point where the ball joint is, and it would have broken again eventually. I used some plastic welder epoxy that I had on hand to reinforce the crack and I filled up that little pocket on the back to make it rock solid. I also did this for the one that was not cracked to prevent it from breaking in the future..
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3446629/2012-04-10%2019.10.05.jpg)
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I also refoamed the cowl cover with the same weatherstripping. Again, it is not stock (pretty sure stock was closed cell high density foam) but I had this on hand and it should work pretty well. Better than the cracked stuff that was on there. I've messed with this and the resistor so many times I could swap a motor out in 10 minutes I bet!!
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3446629/2012-04-10%2022.39.19.jpg)
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Here it is, all buttoned up and reinstalled. You can see the new foam. It was a booger bear to get it all put back in. especially the little ball joint links. I left them disconnected until I had the baffles back in because I was worried about breaking them, and had to reach in with two fingers to reattach them.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3446629/2012-04-10%2022.40.07.jpg)
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I then installed a new motor for the driver side baffle behind the radio/hvac panel. I had the dash apart for a new radio and odometer gear replacement anyway. Was a good time to do all of this stuff.
One concern I have is that there is not positive "hard stop" on the motors. The only thing that stops them is the baffle itself - the arm pulling the baffle close or pushing it open - is the only thing that keeps the motor from continuing on to either hit the heater box itself (the top where the ducts come down) or, for the left motor, hitting its bracket. The right motor I think would just go round until it hit the duct work. I'm assuming after a few seconds the motor quits pulling on the baffles???? Seems to me that they would burn out if that is not the case. It makes me worry about the baffles breaking again, despite the reinforcement of the epoxy.
Any comments on any of this stuff?
Thanks!
Tom
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That's an excellent looking job, all 'round. I'd never have believed the parts I sent would end up that clean!
There are many BMW motors and servos that operate on an overload principle, from what I've heard. The power window and sunroof motors, for instance. They overload when their panel closes, breaking the connection with a relay.
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Thanks Dave! I did dump all the parts I needed into the sink with some Dawn and scrubbed them with a scouring pad to get all the funk off beforehand (after I scraped off the old gaskets). If you are anything like me, it probably gives you satisfaction to see some dusty junk from your basement fix up somebody else's problems. I really do thank you!
Interesting about the motors. No wonder they are broken. I'm surprised more aren't broken with 20 year old plastics living so close to the heat from the engine being pulled on like that.
Sorry the photos are so big. Didn't have time to resize them.
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Nice write-up and glad you got it to work again! I should do the same thing and re-foam my system while it's apart...
BTW, The door lock actuator motors seem to operate on the overload principle that Dave mentions.
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Nice write-up and glad you got it to work again! I should do the same thing and re-foam my system while it's apart...
BTW, The door lock actuator motors seem to operate on the overload principle that Dave mentions.
Thanks! I hope it helps somebody else as there wasn't a whole lot of details that I could find out there related to this issue.
Yeah, my central locking isn't working. That is one of the things I need to look at. I have a bunch of stuff I'm ordering from a guy in UK, and one item he has is the central lock module....gotta see if that is my problem or not and get him to throw that in with the rest. My doors and trunk lock manually, but no power at all. Driver door won't double lock (turn past 45 degrees) - so probably a combination of issues.......
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From what I've seen it's likely the lock micro-switches have fallen off the lock housing. Typically the actuators and controller are OK.
I've also seen those switches just fall apart, lose the switch arm, etc. You'll usually find the stuff in the bottom of the door. It's a fiddly job though, not a lot of room to work there, especially with those little clips.
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From what I've seen it's likely the lock micro-switches have fallen off the lock housing. Typically the actuators and controller are OK.
I've also seen those switches just fall apart, lose the switch arm, etc. You'll usually find the stuff in the bottom of the door. It's a fiddly job though, not a lot of room to work there, especially with those little clips.
Thanks Dave. I suspect you are correct, as you typically are. I'm going to be refinishing the door pockets, handles and armrests, so when I pull the door cards I'll take a look.