M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: bmwman91 on March 17, 2006, 01:04:20 PM
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(cont. from http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69 )
Perhaps if we all talk & build up a good base of knowledge and maybe soemthing like a well-organized list of parts I will sticky a DIY M42 Turbo thread in here or the DIY section. I guess if it is all theoretical it will be in here. Once someone does it I will put one in the DIY section.
Here was something I started a loooooong time ago, on the mostly M20-lovers' forum.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141081
Although I rapidly realized that I did not have the $ or time to do this right, the thread became a somewhat useful knowledge base.
So, how about this:
Let's build up a list of parts, to do this RIGHT.
* Start with the bolt-on stuff. Turbo, IC, wastegate (I say internal personally, but it is up for discussion), BOV, secondary oiling system for turbo, oil & cooling lines & fittings, and other hardware.
* Engine Management. Stand-alone is, in my opinion, the ONLY way that this will be done RIGHT. That, or reprogramming the stock chip. That is even better. The map bins on it can be reprogrammed to use a MAP input, although it can be a little hard to tune.
* Exhaust manifold. That is the triky, & $$$ part.
* Ducting for the compressed air. I do not put it with the bolt-ons since it will have to be a custom bit.
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Sounds good! I found this on ebay, some parts that could help, the guy ships worldwide. But be fast cause its only 19 and a half hours left....
Eurox1.17=USD
http://cgi.ebay.de/TURBO-E30-E36-M3-M5-M6-Alpina-Schnitzer-Hartge_W0QQitemZ8046143095QQcategoryZ40183QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.de/TURBO-E30-E36-M3-M5-M6-Alpina-Schnitzer-Hartge_W0QQitemZ8046143095QQcategoryZ40183QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
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thats m20 stuff, and it looks pretty beat.
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true looks used big time
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Manifolds eh?
http://www.neukin.com/bmwmanifolds.html
e-mail 'em to make sure it'll fit in the E30 and that it's a top mount (98% sure it is) so the only thing you should have to worry about is the turbo clearing the hood :) Also, the guy who works for 666 Fabrication on e30 tech 'jon_volk' is his name was thinking about making a manifold for the E30 so you could shoot him a PM to see what the news is.
If I had the money to do a turbo in my 318iS I consider a turbo setup but if I do anything engine wise I have a feeling it'd involve an S50 engine and tranny :)
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http://sg.geocities.com/saab900portal/Brochure/1985900T16S/1985900T16S06.jpg (http://sg.geocities.com/saab900portal/Brochure/1985900T16S/1985900T16S06.jpg)
might wanna look at the Saab turbo setup....
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Cool stuff.
OK, as far as management, there are a couple ways I see it being done.
1) S-AFC using MAP, VE bins, & air temp as the air intake measurement.
PROS:
FAST.
Can be very accurate if tuned properly with a volumetric efficiency table.
CONS:
Requires a LOT of tuning to get it right.
2) MAF for the air intake measurement.
PROS:
Almost as fast as MAP
Automatically corrects for air temp (some don't, but we won't use one of those).
EASY EASY EASY to tune with once the output curve is known!
CONS:
Can give erratic output if the incoming air is too turbulent (causing fluctuations in hot-wire temp.)
More fragile/can get dirty unlike the MAP setup.
So, I would honestly vote for a MAF based system. I did the MegaSquirt on the last car, and it was not bad or anythign with the MAP setup, but using a MAF would eliminate a LOT of programming (since the air temp does not need to be used with the MAP & VE values in a big equation). Yes, MAP is faster by a small margin, but honestly I feel that it is pretty negligible. The MAF really is a great device to go with...all that conversion nonsense is done internally in any semi-modern one. I also believe (correct me if I am wrong) that it accounts for barometric changes (from altitude) since less dense air will have less mass & less capacity to cool the hot-wire.
Since engine management is the OTHER PITA (the manifold being the other), let's get some input here!
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Here is what my brother and I have planned out. Keep in mind, this has a little bit of research but is so far only a rough idea of what I am considering trying to do. By doing as much as possible myself, I think I can keep the costs reasonable, but even paying someone to do some of the work, you can do similar without going into serious debt. No matter what, expect to put more into the engine/turbo setup than you currently have in your entire car.
Me, I plan on getting a decent Tig welder and a cheap mill (Harbour Freight $1000 or a used Bridgeport check your local paper, you would be amazed!). With these 2 peices you can do an awefull lot of this in your garage. Some of this can be done with very common tools even. Research before you go start spending though.
This is not perfect, nothing has been attempted yet, and only minimal initial research on it has been done. So do not take this as a recipe that anyone can follow. So do not be too harsh or critical of it. Considering this is just a rough draft of things brainstormed over time, I know things are missing.
Long block.
Block
The plan is to start with a used e36 m42. Reasons for this is that it is newer, and had more development time. It also has a built in knock sensor, and I am pretty sure the heads or cams are slightly better. Though I admit, I am sketchy on that part. Deburr, smooth and generally clean it up. Increase and clean out the oil galleys, enlarge the oil return holes. Maybe add a small bit of block fill in oder to stiffen the bylinders a tad (racers trick). Bore the block, may not get much, but if you need custom pistons anyhow, why not. Also o-ring the cylinders, this will give you a far stronger headgasket. Something really needed for boost. As long as you do the deburring and minor machining, this can all be done pretty cheap. No more than a couple hundred.
Pistons
These will need to be custom plain and simple. Forged, oversize, and 9 or 9.5:1 compression.
Rods/crank
Stock. deburred, smoothed. No need to mess with these really. They ae good parts already.
Heads.
Cleaning up the bowls is the most important factor. However some work on flow would be good, particularly the exhaust. Problem here is that BMW Motorsports division already breathed on the M42, so you may not get much. Extrudehone is the best bet for better flow but it is expensive. Probably $200-$400 for the single head.
Cams.
Some quick research and playing on a simulator dyno will net the best cam specs. Could even just get the Schrick specs. Take these and get the cams reground. This tends to run between $200-$400, much better than Schricks. You especially need more exhaust.
Lifters/buckets
May want to convert to solid.
Harmonic balancer
Custom. There are companies who will make them to your specifications.
Doing all of this should net you a VERY solid bottom end, capable of 8000 or more RPM.
Exhaust
Cutting up a stock exhaust is the easiest way to get some of the necessary exhaust parts. A turbo flange is easily fabbed and welded. [b/Beware!]/b] I have heard of basically highway robbery by shops making turbo header flanges. As in $800 just to flip a header and weld on a flange! $200 for teh turbo flange.. etc.. What the fuck are people doing, getting gold plated flanges? It is a plate with some holes in it. Do not fall prey to this. A good shop can just about build a whole header with flange for that price. Supra guys seem to get raped the worst, though we drive Bimmers, do some shopping around.
A custom downpipe will connect back into the orginal exhaust, which may need to be increased in size a bit. Beware, downpipes suffer the same fate as turbo headers/flanges.
Turbo
Spec-wise we have several factory turbos to chose from.
A Thunderbird turbo coupe turbo would be a bit large, though capable of a bit more power. It would give you that rush people love from turbos. Problem is, that is a bad thing for a fast car. You want power to come of smooth over a wide range, not hit like a brick.
A Golf/Jetta or Audi TT turbo would be great.
Placement is an issue. One place I have found it could work well though is right where the windsheild washer resevoir is. This means you need to move/replace that, but that is a small issue really. Another place is the battery tray Cabriolets use next to the firewall. I do not recomend this though. Mor ethan a few cars have gone up in flames due to firewall insulation catching fire due to the heat of a turbo. If you tryto mount it near the firewall, do us all afavor, carry a fire extinguisher in the car. It will probably not save the car, but it could save you.
I also recomend ceramic header wrap and/or ceramic coating of the exhaust pipes and turbo. BMW's are not known for low underhood temps. This will help keep them down some.
piping/intercooler.
By switching to an electric fan, you remove HP loss from the engine, as well as make some space for a crossover tube. My plan is to use an inline water to air cooler sitting just in frot of the engine, over what would have been the stock fan. The water to air, allows more efficient plumbing, less lag, and allows you more freedom in mounting the cooler considering it does not need huge pipes going to and from in any specific place, not to mention water is a better at removing heat than air to air.
Switching to a new M5 water pump could also help, though adapting it could prove to be a challenge. It can be remote mounted as it is electric.
Intake
This is something I have been wanting to mess with for a while. I dislike some of the response of the stock engine, so... I.T.B.'s.
The idea is custom made slide valves. One plate each side, making a scissor action for throttle openings (hard to explain). Look up slide valve carburators for a simple explanation. This uses dual slides in opposite directions. The linkage could be a pain, but the response should be great. The total length of each should be be short, like 8in maybe with the valves at the 3-4in mark.
Even if you do not build an intake like this, the stock one can be utilized, you would need to improve flow and come up with some piping to adapt it.
injectors
Cutting up a GM or Ford intake will net some fuel injector bungs allowing for a wider variety of injectors. As well as the ability to run dual injectors per cylinder for a more adjustable fuel curve.
computer/injection
Megasquirt... BMWMAN91 has already accomplished a lot for M42 guys as far as this goes. It is at least a starting point for N/A.
Power output....
Edumacated guesses..
300-350 with the smaller turbos.
350 -400 if you do not mind some lag should be possible.
More if you really do not mind a pretty rediculous powerband, in other words, spinning the tires everytime the turbo kicks in.
Considering our vehicle weight, this would make for a very fast car. 11sec. 1/4 mile would be pretty easy to rip off back to back to back with the 300-350 setup.
Some other issues to address due to such a power increase:
Chassis, probably could use stiffening.
Lighter flywheel.
Brakes could use improving. M3 brakes maybe?
Radiator. A larger radiator will be necessary. One without a plastic resevoir is recomended.
Rear End. You should drop in the 325 (medium) differential. For the higher HP setups a large (750i) rear end should probably be used.
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sounds good so far but the HP's seem a little high, would be nice though
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sounds good so far but the HP's seem a little high, would be nice though
300 is within reason for cheap and without a lot of lag. Especially with the extra revs.
Larger turbos is an option since the bottom end is more than ready for it, but you would end up giving up some bottom end power.
Remember we are talking an 8000 rpm bored out engine, not a stock m42.
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Pretty good overview of what a setup would consist of. Management can go a number of ways, Megasquirt is one. It is a LOT of work to build & install. TEC3's are sweet too, just more pricey. ITB's would be a help to increase throttle response, but overkill. The main cause is the AFM. Not because it restricts flow, but because of 1)the inertial issues associated with the 'trap door' and 2)the internal RC characteristics causing a delay in the output voltage reaching their final level (RC circuit has exponential output, takes time to reach approximately the right value, I tested this for my MAF conversion). Ditching the AFM for a MAF or MAP setup would be enough to make the throttle response lightning fast.
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I have 2 issues with doing this engine, because yes, I am considering the possibility.
One is that my car is not as good as I would like it, and I would prefer to have a great car, than an ok car with a crazy engine. Untill the Miata is running, it is my primary transportation (I can ride with co-workers or borrow another car if necessary).
The other thing is that for the effort, time, money invested, there are far easier ways to get that kind of power. SBC, SBF, SR20DET, EvoM3.... and the list goes on.
As for why ITB's, well frankly I like the look and performane. I have also wanted to make that throttle body for years. Then there is the fact of wanting as much throttle response as possible and considering the turbos will reduce any gains anyhow... With the equipment I plan on purchasing soon, they will be a simple item to try and fabricate compared to the rest of this project.
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Here is something you gents need to figure out ,,
a standalone system on your M42,
this is #1 in all turbo conversion
I would use a TIC system from Perfect Power
run it from the MAP sensor and intake temp and coolant temp
#2
Define a HP figure you are aiming at.
Get injectors that will allow you to reach that figure
#3
Find the needed boost pressure to accomplish that
#4
Work out if you need to drop the compression to be able to run the boost
#5
Find the turbo that will be needed
#6
Intercooler sizing and placement
#7
Planning is key..
Standalone is the ultimate key
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I have not heard of the TIC system. What sets it apart from other stand-alone systems?
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nothing special I think, it´s not exspensive,
it can be a boost controller, closed loop , open loop, designed for 60-2 ignition, wasted spark, practically designed for a M42 :)
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Hmm interesting. If it can drive 4 individual coils then it is good for the M42. The M42 is not a WS motor though.
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Hmm interesting. If it can drive 4 individual coils then it is good for the M42. The M42 is not a WS motor though.
the PP TIC only has two coil drivers so you'd have to run wasted spark. I like PP products, I'd imagine this unit would be a nice simple way to go.
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If I have money left over from my S50B30 Euro rebuild along with all my other projects, I´d be willing to shell out for a TIC system just to tune for a M42 for you guys ;)
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Whay don't you rip a turbo out of a fairly new WRX. I did that to mine. I went and found a Jap performance shop, asked them if they got people changing their factory turbo for a bigger one. I got one off him that was 4 months old for AUS$200. Waste gate and all. Mates up really well with the M42 if your not going for big boost or decompressing the motor.
Just a thought.
Kings
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Whay don't you rip a turbo out of a fairly new WRX. I did that to mine. I went and found a Jap performance shop, asked them if they got people changing their factory turbo for a bigger one. I got one off him that was 4 months old for AUS$200. Waste gate and all. Mates up really well with the M42 if your not going for big boost or decompressing the motor.
Just a thought.
Kings
Got any pics or specs of your setup?
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yeah, what are all the components that were required to make it work? did you program a standalone system?
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As Far As Engine Managment ? What Will You Use ?
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I was looking at those M50 manifolds on ebay,
cutting the last 2cyls looks like it would work nicely,
(http://www.xs-power.co.uk/assets/active/3/243_small.jpg)
as seen in this picture, it even looks like it was a 4cyl manifold to begin with and the last 2cylenders where added on later
Lets imagine that would work,
wouldn´t this work as well almost as a complete package?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/92-98-BMW-E36-6CYL-GT-325-450-HP-TURBO-KIT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ005QQitemZ150063229301QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Lets imagine that also works, (I´m sceptical of the 450hp claims tough)
whats left is engine management and exhaust ,
I´d use a "2.5 if the goal wasn´t more then 250hp crank,
For a real easy setup, I´d use a SMT7 for
ignition retard under boost only, added fuel under boost only, and boost control, the unit would use the TPS signal, ignition signal, MAP sensor retrofitted , wires to control solenoid to control boost
to add fuel I would add 4 injectors in the manifold up high, at high air speeds the air and fuel mixing is great and lowers intake charge considerably this
leaves the stock system intact you don´t have to mess with a FMU at all,
The added injector-s are controlled in the SMT and you can adjust the smt to allow them only to work under boost , you will control them by using TPS vs. RPM map and use MAP sensor for compensation (this is how Perfect Power standalones are designed)
The ignition goes into the SMT and back to the ecu, it can be retarded advanced any way you like using a TPS vs. RPM map and use MAP sensor compensation for boost dependent retard, I would not bother with anything but retarding based on boost,
The advantages are,
Cheap easily available turbo system or manifold, the intercooler fits the E30 with some messing about, plenty of these seen on e30tech fitted.
Stock ecu and fuel system remains in tact fully and operationally,
All changes are made in the SMT unit, adjusted while driving,
Injector or Injectors can be any you have , for instance another set of M42´s if you plan on running up to twice the 136hp limit, or a single huge one or whatever you want,
Am I forgetting anything??
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my friend gunni , i am thinking of making my m42 turbo , and i was thinking of getting the SMT7 , can you tell me if the SMT7 package contains the electrovalve for boost control or is it extra..
can the SMT7 be connected to every car on the market ? because a friend of mine is thinking also...( he will put a 1.4 turbo i.e. engine from a fiat uno to a fiat X1/9 bertone )...
i am , right now , gathering the pieces needed for my project ( m42 - 318is turbo ) i have the intercooler witch i am going to do v-mount , i have the turbo , garrett gt 28-60 , i have oil cooler , i am looking for cheap pistons that can stand to 1 bar pressure , i am going to order SMT7 , after our discussion here i am thinkig that it will work..
for manifold , i am going for a hand - made ram-horns , hand made downpipe , and generaly me and my friend ( who is a mechanick ) are going to make almost everything that is needed...
if i need your help with SMT7 , will you help me ?
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yea of course, I sell SMT units, you can email me about them,
your friend might have to get a SMT6 unit to work on his Fiat,
unless you can tell me how the ignition system works and I will check if that is compatible with the SMT7,
email me for anything further