M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: benbimmer357 on December 14, 2011, 06:54:12 AM
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Hey All
New to forum but not new to BMW's. I have had my fair share of them over the years, 3 - 3series, 2 - 5 series and 1 - 740. I bought my first M42 1993 318is a few weeks ago as a project, it wasnt running when I got it and have had some trouble getting it started. Seems to want to start - turns over and back fires into the intake. Here is what I have done so far:
New Plugs and wires
Switched coils out with tested working coils
Both cam shaft sensors
Switched out ICV with working one
switched out DME and fuel relays with working ones
replaced all vacume hoses under intake
Used working ECM
Replaced fuel injectors with bosch
Fuel pump replaced by PO
Mann fuel filter
Drained the tank and put 4 gallons of fresh gas with octane boost
Checked compression in all cyl - good -even
All this and still no start....
My questions are....
ECM - do I need to switch out the chips in it to make it work on my car? Same part number same ecm...
When I replaced the cam and crank sensors I did it at the same time and they have the same plugs - can someone tell me which one plugs into what so I can verify I put them in the right way?
Can you really hear the fuel pump on starting on these cars? I cant seem to hear it work but I checked the lines before and after the filter to see if I had fuel coming out at start up which it did...
Thanks so much for your help! These boards keep me in the cars I love without them I would probably be driving a honda.... :)
Ben
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I had to approve your post, sorry if you didn't see the changes right away. Spam filter is tough here. Welcome to the 'club! Hopefully we can help get your car running!
Sounds like you're really close, you've already replaced all the right stuff. IIRC, the fuel pump will pulse some fuel once but then will turn off until it gets a signal off the crank sensor. If that signal is wrong (for instance if the sensor is in the wrong plug), the car won't start. You can test that by jumping the fuel pump relay socket pins 30 to 87. With the jumper in and the key in ignition pos II you should hear the pump running. I'd also test the resistance on both sensors. Crank should be 580-ish ohms, cam about 1200-ish. Do you have the ETM?
ECM/ECU/DME will work, I think they're all the same until BMW started with that idiotic EWS (late 94?). I'm pretty sure the red label units all work. Silver label units have to be "aligned" with the keys & chassis.
I don't recall offhand how to identify the wiring harnesses, but I know for sure on my car that the lower plug in the wiring plenum is for the crank sensor and the upper plug is the cam sensor. BTW, when I got my car it wasn't running either. I had to clean the crank sensor and the mount. If it's a little too far away from the trigger wheel it won't work well.
You should also be sure you didn't swap the fuel lines into the rail. They're easy to put in the wrong way. IIRC the feed line is on top, and the return is underneath. However, they're hidden by the intake manifold. I'm not 100% on this, but the inner line should be the return line off the FPR.
There are a few other things I'd check:
Your key cylinder might be worn or broken.
Vac leaks are really common, and they can keep the car from running. I put silicone lines in my car to solve the issue.
The early e36 had a problem with the DME getting flooded, BMW added another drain to resolve that problem as a dealer TSB.
Finally, is your cam timing right on? The cam gears tend to strip from worn guides/weak tensioner & the chain can jump time, causing all sorts of havoc.
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Thanks so much for the added information. I will try that with the fuel pump and relay....
I forgot a few things....
New chain tensioner - other one was shot
Also pulled the VCG again to check cams - turned it to TDC and the cam lobes seemed to be allignes as well as the arrows - does anyone have a good picture of what this should look like. The bently picture is a little vague.
My ECU is a green label - Does that still hold true on the chip?
I pulled the original one and tore it apart found some minor issues and cleaned it, it did not look like it had gotten wet.
I am pretty sure I got reattached th ecoorect fuel lines into the rail - very little slack there... Could the PO not attached them correctly to the fuel pump? Is there a way to check that?
Dont know what "ETM" means, can you elaborate?
Thanks Again!!
Ben
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Checked the fuel pump for power through the relay worked fine, even found a small fuel leak. Switched out the chips in the DME just in case. Check the fusible link - good. NO start exactly the same thing wants to start backfires in the T Body and nothing....
It sounds to me like its timing but I pulled the VC off and checked it at TDC and it looked correct. I replaced or swapped about everything imaginable and still no start!
Any help would greatly be appreciated, this has been my MOST frustrating projects yet!:mad:
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OK, so fuel pump checks out, DME looks OK. Green label is the same as the e30 IIRC.
I'd run a compression check on the motor if you haven't done that yet.
ETM is the electrical troubleshooting manual. Priceless bit of work. I have a copy of both the '89 325i and the '91 318i/is in my car. You'll need both as the '91 is missing some info. http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm
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I will have to get the ETM book....
I did a compression check came out 150-160 on all cylinders.
I also cleaned the area around the new Crank Sensor
Any other suggestions?
Thanks again for the help!
Ben
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Sounds like you've covered all the bases. Next thing I'd check is to be sure the timing is right.
I have a hunch that maybe the coil harnesses are incorrect. Are you 100% sure the correct coil harnesses are plugged in 1-2-3-4 to the same wires to the same coils? The stickers fall off the plugs and if they get swapped the car will not run.
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Yup on the spark plug wires - I even pulled them out of the channels to make sure I had the #1 plug wire from the front of the engine to #1 front of the coil - #2 wire to coil #2 and so forth... that is correct 1234 front to back on both coil and engine right?
Here is what I did today:
- Checked for spark - had it in all 4 coils - is there a way to check the strength of the spark or does that reallly matter?
- Pulled the plugs (new) to see if they were wet - they were
So it looks like I have spark and fuel but still no start....
Any other ideas - I think I may start reversing what I have done and check for any electrical connections or vacume hoses that I may have not plugged back in or hooked up properly.
I am utterly stumped and frustrated... any help would be greatly appreciated
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Yep, that's right...1-2-3-4 from rad to firewall. All have to match. What I was talking about is the wiring harness from the DME to the coil packs...are you sure those are the 1-2-3-4 harnesses to match the packs & cylinders?
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Use a inspection mirror and check under the intake manifold to ensure it is seated correctly and is flat aginst the gasket and isnt cocked. The back firing into the intake leads me to think there may be a very large vacuum leak present in this area. Good luck.
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Okay... pulled the intake off AGAIN.... no loose vacume hoses all plugs seem to be plugged in properly, One thind I did notice was some gas in the lower intake - could that be a fuel pressure guage issue?
I installed the bosch (yellow) injectors - I am debating on putting the old ones back in and see what happens... Any thoughts - I am running out of things to do....
Thanks!
Ben
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Sorry. fuel pressure regulator...
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Replaced the fuel regulator sucked the extra gas from the bottom of the intake, put it all back together and............................. NOTHING! Still the same almost wants to start but doesnt - I guess if I have no other feedback I am going to start working backwards. Frustrating to say the least!!!
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Are you sure the coils are correct off the DME? Not from coil to plug, but from DME to coils? I'd do a continuity test just to be sure. Here's a pinout...you can be sure the cam & crank sensors get to the correct connector as well:
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1622
Gas in the intake is a very odd symptom; I still think it's not timed correctly. Your compression # look good and you said the cams are timed properly, so it's unlikely to be the motor.
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You might be surprised at how much timing error the car will run with. Back in 2005 I was being a dumb 21 year old & rushed putting the timing case back together. The crank was 1 tooth off of TDC relative to the cams...let's just say that the car will run surprisingly well with pistons hitting valves!
Dave, if you are thinking that maybe the crank & cams are 180 degrees out of phase, I agree that benbimmer should check that. An easy way to check that is to:
- Pull valve cover
- Turn crank with ratchet / 22mm socket until cylinder 1 cam lobes face up & toward each other (the square ends of the cams by cylinder 4 will have two small holes drilled in them, and these faces should be up & approximately parallel)
- Pull out spark plugs for cylinders #1 & #2
- Get a small dowel and stick it in the holes until it hits the pistons. #2 should be >75mm lower than #1.
If you find that #2 is at the top & #1 is at the bottom, then the crank is 180 degrees off. You CAN remedy this without pulling the timing case covers, but you must be careful to not ram pistons into valves. Basically, remove the cam sprocket bolts & rotate the crank to #1 TDC & then get the cams aligned to TDC & bolt it back together. There's an access port in the back of the block where an 8mm bolt can be used to lock the flywheel at TDC.
Remember to only turn the crank in the direction that it goes when running (clockwise, when standing in front of the car looking at the engine). The chain can bind up and cause timing errors otherwise.
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Thanks Dave and BMWMAN! I will check this and reply back with my findings. I did the TDC / CAM check but not in the #2 cyl. Thanks for the idea!
Ben
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http://www.m42club.com/forums/album.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1095
http://www.m42club.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1096
http://www.m42club.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1097
http://www.m42club.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1095
Okay...
Pulled the VC off again took it to TDC, pulled Plug 1 and 2 and measured the distance which came to 8 cm. Looked at the arrows again and they looked aligned but the cam lobes dont, let me know what you think...
Thanks again for the help...
Ben
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Did the minor adjustment with the tming chain. Put it all back together, was pretty confident that it would start and............. nothing! Same behavior as before acts like it wants to start then never does.... Went back to the fuel pump that the PO said he had installed, pulled it and it looked even older than the car itself, and the sock was split wide open! Ordered a new one and fuel sending unit, so now I am on hold until I get the parts.
I do have some questions....
When I opened the fuel pump area - the tank was full, the gas guage is reading 1/4. I ordered a new fuel sender - does this work in conjunction with the fuel pump?
The inside of the tank is pretty bad a lot of sediment... I will drain it an clean it...
Since the sock was split wide open should I blow out all the lines? If so is there a specific way to do this?
Thanks
Ben
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I would have to say, after reading all the stuff you already did, that you have finally arrived at the source of all your problems. You do need to clean the tank of all sediment, and at least blow out the lines with compressed air, or replace them, replace your fuel filter, fill with fresh gas, and I bet she starts for you. If not, maybe you could teach the car how to cliff dive, which is what I threaten mine with when it acts up.
Geoff:)
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Thanks Geoff! I bought this car to tinker with and possibly re-sell but lately it has become my life! Feels like a boxing match and Im losing! I will post the results after I get the parts in....
Ben
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http://www.m42club.com/forums/album.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1095
http://www.m42club.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1096
http://www.m42club.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1097
http://www.m42club.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1095
Okay...
Pulled the VC off again took it to TDC, pulled Plug 1 and 2 and measured the distance which came to 8 cm. Looked at the arrows again and they looked aligned but the cam lobes dont, let me know what you think...
Thanks again for the help...
Ben
Which arrows looked aligned? If you are saying that the arrows on the cam sprockets were pointing at each other, then the cams aren't at TDC. The little arrows on the sprockets are more or less meaningless since you can put them on any which way. The lobes for cylinders 1 & 2 need to point up and toward each other. See the second picture on Brandon P's site for clarification.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318istimingchain.html
Now, if your cams are oriented like this, and piston #1 is ~80mm higher than piston #2, then the issue is something else.
I almost forgot to ask. When you try to start it, do you smell raw gas at the tail pipe? If not, check to make sure that you didn't forget to plug the injector harness back in. I have done that once or twice, and it was a real forehead-slapper when I realized what the issue was!
You said that you can hear the fuel pump prime itself, right? How did you check the fusible link? Did you use voltmeter at the small bolt on top of the main +12V block on the firewall? There are 2 separate parts to it BTW, and the smaller black wire powers ALL injection electronics and is separate from the giant 20mm wire that runs up there.
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Sounds like the cam and crank sensors are switched? There is fuel and spark, I am guessing the spark is not happening at the right time
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Checked the fusible link visually tore apart the trunk to find it.
On the plugins for the crank and cam sensors are your wires pointing UP or pointing DOWN? That may help me tell if I have them plugged in wrong.
I cleaned out the fuel tank - it had almost 11 gallons of gas in it!
Waiting for my parts from Autohauz - been a little slow in delivery lately - not getting them until Jan 4th!
When I pulled the plugs they were Fouled badly... I have already replaced them - could be due to old/bad gas...
I will repost after I have them in... Wish me luck!
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The cam sensor goes into the top plug, and the crank sensor goes into the bottom one. The cam sensor plug has the wire coming out of the top, and the crank sensor plug is mirrored / has the wire coming out the bottom.
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Thanks BMWMAN91 but I have it is a different set up on the e36 body style. They sit right next to each other side by side.
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This diagram at RealOEM (http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=CA53&mospid=47490&btnr=11_0156&hg=11&fg=10) makes it look like the crank sensor points down, and is closer to the driver's fender. This diagram (http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=CA53&mospid=47490&btnr=11_2685&hg=11&fg=10) makes it look like the cam sensor points down as well, but makes it look the same. There's a channel piece on the left of that diagram that makes me think it's not represented correctly. I have no clue, and I took a long look around the web for some hints.
I can't believe that nobody knows this offhand...Worse comes to worse, just tone out the right wires at the DME/ECU/Motronic connector. Don't do this with the DME plugged in, it'll likely fry it!
Pull the DME connector and run a continuity test from the cam & crank wiring harness pin #1 to the following DME connector pins:
44 Camshaft sensor input BK
67 Crankshaft input sensor BK
68 Crankshaft input sensor YL
I'm not 100% positive that this is the e36 harness, but I'm pretty sure they're nearly identical so hopefully it'll give the right answer.
I know you didn't ask, but I have a dumb way of making sure I get this right given my short attention span and daft memory...I bought myself a $1 pack of small multi-colored zip ties at the dollar store; I use one on the sensor and a matching one on the harness. Never failed me yet (and shows my toleration for all the world's peoples). It's especially useful on the temp/oil sensors on the side of the head.
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Okay, new pum and sending unit installed. New relay, just in case. No start. I moved the coil plugs wires to 1 3 4 2 and it started! What the heck? It ran really rough and would hold an idle but it started. Can someone please tell me what is going on?
While it was running a large amount (1/4 cup 3 minutes running) of oil leaked out of the front passengers side of the engine is that a crank seal?
Thanks for all the help - I think I am getting closer... maybe....
Ben