M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Engine + Driveline => Topic started by: PeabnutBubber on October 28, 2011, 01:39:37 PM
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Hey there, this is my first question here and I didn't see this topic covered yet.
I turned on my engine the other day and suddenly I get a terribly loud noise/rattle upon start-up. I diagnosed it myself after doing as much research as I could as the timing chain rattling around like crazy. It had that diesel-ish sound alongside a hardcore rattle.
After ordering a brand new tensioner, I pulled a chain tensioner from a fresh m42 at a junkyard just to see. After taking out the old one in my current m42, I went to replace it expecting it to be difficult to push in (apparently it takes around 20lbs of pressure?) but to my surprise the whole piece slid in and I tightened the 19mm cover with no resistance whatsoever. The junkyard tensioner had plenty of resistance on the spring. Even the old tensioner has significant spring tension still.
(http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2925)
After cranking the engine, it ran rough and then bogged out and shut itself off. On the second crank, it ran fine and began to sound better than before but still the rattling was very present and pretty loud.
Sorry about the novel but it leaves me with these two questions;
1) Should I try the new tensioner and not return it ($50) and
2) Does this look like I'm going to have to dive into the timing case to fix something important in there or what do you think?
Any knowledge will help of course as well. Thanks a ton!!
Luckily I can bike to class every day but I miss driving the ladies around. :cool:
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I'd be worried that the idler gear bearing has gone away. That'd put a lot of slack in the chain and prevent the tensioner from, um, tensioning anything. Did you pull the cam cover to see if the chain and cam gears are OK?
It's happened several times I can recall on this site. That was changed mid-production to a deflection rail. I don't think you can see that from the upper case, but I haven't done it myself yet so I'm not totally sure.
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Thanks for the reply Dave, I'm going to have to do a bit more reading about the timing case and everything going on inside it, for sure. I haven't opened it up yet but after I look it up that will probably be my next step. I'm guessing since the bad-sound happened so abruptly it was more like something broke than something wore out (like the tensioner), but that's just my best guess.
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In this RealOEM diagram (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AJ93&mospid=47318&btnr=11_4367&hg=11&fg=25) it's part #11 that tends to fail. The internal bearing cracks and what remains just clatters away. There are also isolated cases of the guide rails, bolts or even the timing chain case failing.
The toughest part of pulling that front case is the main pulley & bolt. Specification is 240 ft-lb or something crazy like that. If you get a breaker bar on it you can tension the bar then bump the starter to start the bolt loose.
You don't have to tear apart the front case yet. Drain the oil through a strainer & maybe even drop the lower oil pan to check for debris. If there isn't anything in there, it might be that the chain skipped a cam tooth or two instead. In that case, I'd guess one or more bent valves. A compression test would quickly verify that.
Good thing you have a fresh M42 in a salvage yard nearby. The later cases swap directly on the early block, it's a desirable upgrade. I'm told that even the later e36 serpentine belt setup can swap over...I was considering that myself to get the updated a/c compressor for an r134 conversion. Most of us would need to find a shorter belt though...due to our P/S delete.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's the idler gear or a guide rail. You have the impossible luxury of working on the car all year 'round too...could be worse...the car could be broken down while it's snowing. You know, like it is up here right now.
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The weather really is perfect here right now- 60's and low 70's. Again, I can't thank you enough for the opinion. So, I think my next step will be to do exactly what you say and pull down the oil pan and check for stuff that shouldn't be in there. I'm hoping it really is just a rail or that pulley. That diagram makes everything make sense as well btw. If it is a case of valves, then I may just look into dropping in another m42, although I have not done enough research on the plausibility of that... Or on the replacement of valves or related damage for that matter.
I hope I'm not in over my head here, but hey, I don't mind learning how to take care of this thing. The more I work on it, the more of an emotional connection I'm starting to feel. haha
I'll keep updating on what's going on and provide pictures if I can as I take it apart. Hopefully more people will input some knowledge as well. Anything helps, I'm kind of a noob at all this and I find these forums/google to be invaluable to a DIYer like myself.
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The weather really is perfect here right now- 60's and low 70's. That diagram helped everything make sense as well and thanks a ton for the opinion and the knowledge.
I took your advice and dropped the oil pan to see what could be seen. There were no particularly large chunks of anything in there, but there were a bunch of metal shavings from what it looked like.
A friend and I decided to remove the valve cover to see what could be seen. First, I noticed that a couple of the spark plugs were covered in oil and then the bolts of the valve cover were pretty loose. When we finally popped off the cover, we were able to have a good look at the chain and cam gears and everything started to come together like a Guy Ritchie movie.
All of the cam gear teeth were razor sharp and the chain was able to be pushed down on either side of the guide about 5-10mm. It was very loose. So, everything made sense. The reason the noise happened so suddenly was because the tensioner was so old and because of that, the cam gears were super worn and because of that- on that day that I stopped by a friend's house to pick her up for class- the chain must have slipped a tooth and began the end of the valves. *sigh*
I still have yet to do a compression test, but as soon as I put everything back together and fill it with oil, I'll go ahead and do that and see where I'm at.
Otherwise, I'm on the market for a new m42 or to swap in an m50. I have to research still what that would take.
What does anyone (or just Dave) think?
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well, even if the compression test is not good news, you could still get your head fixed, or buy a hopefully good used head and replace just that, rather than the whole motor. I guess it depends on how much work you want to do, and how much money you want to spend..if you determine 1 or 2 valves have bent, you could replace those, cam gears, chain, and put it all back together, or buy a good used head with less expense than what it would take to replace the whole motor, not to mention the amount of work..I feel your pain as my new to me 318is just blew a head gasket..but all cars break, thats a fact
Geoff
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Ok, so here's the latest update.
I ran a compression test and it looks like cylinders 1, 2, and 3 are at around 200-210 Psi and cylinder #4 kept giving strange results. The most consistent was 180psi but we got 150, 130, and even a 90 and a 30. I think it had something to do with the threading where the spark plug goes possibly, I went and got the compression gauge adapter stuck in there after the first check and maybe some stuff got in there or something when I was trying to get it out. It seemed like the more I tightened the gauge hose the higher the compression read.
Aside from the strange readings from #4, the compression looks really awesome. (My odometer stopped at 159,000 sometime before I bought the car.)
I slapped on a new oil pan gasket, filled it up with oil, threw in some new spark plugs and nice shiny new wires I found at the junkyard on one of the m42's there and got her running for the first time in a while. After leveling out, she had that same rattle, however, all of a sudden the rattle disappeared at idle. Now the rattle is only present when I rev but disappears again after around 3-4000 rpms. This is very interesting indeed. I'm not too sure what this means.
When I opened up the valve cover before, I forgot to check the arrows on the cam gears to see how many teeth it may or may not have jumped. At the junkyard, I found 2 brand new cam gears in the trunk of the 91' with the m42. :D I wonder if it is possible to readjust the timing and replace the cam gears without completely removing the chain...
So it looks like I'm just going to be replacing parts in the timing case and hopefully that solves the issue here. I got my girlfriend to get a video of the rattle so I'll include that here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7knc2n9APlk
again, this noise stopped at idle and now can only be heard when it revs
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Hrmmm. If the chain was that loose I'm still suspecting that it's grinding against something inside the chain case. I'm no expert, but it has a higher pitched rattle that sounds like aluminum contact with the chain. I'm thinking that your motor is OK at idle but once you rev it the chain starts slapping around and you start hearing it.
Good thing you ran the compression test...one less thing it could be. I'm guessing that if one reading wasn't reliable that's still an adequate test result. Certainly better then nothing at all.
I'm still suggesting that you pull the lower cover & check the idler gear, rails & fasteners. The chain has a tendency to eat the plastic bits of the rail or internal parts of the timing case if it's not tensioned properly. I've seen unfortunate M42's that broke parts of the timing case when the tensioner overextended.
FYI, the original M42 tensioner, guides, gaskets and idler gear were all updated by BMW during production to eliminate problems. TSB's went out to dealers and in some cases BMW even issued recalls and fixed the cars at their own expense. I'd recommend that you verify if your car has the updated parts.
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Yes, so my next step will be to open up the case completely and get a good look at what's going on in there. I'm going to go ahead and probably replace as much as I can with newer parts. I've read about those updates, so when I go in I'll check and I'll post some pictures of whatever I find.
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Take some pics! It's a bear, I'm told...so I hope this gets you pointed in the right direction.
If you decide to eliminate the idler gear, you'll need an inner case from the later M42/M44 as well.
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My 318is is exhibiting a bit of timing chain rattle on start-up as well. The sound goes away after a minute or so.
My first thought is the chain tensioner, due to the fact the noise goes away once oil has circulated through the engine.
(But I might be misunderstanding how the tensioner works ... )
Is it worth trying a new tensioner to see if that quiets the engine down?
Thanks,
d.hitchcock
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Are you sure it's not lifter clatter?
I'm getting pretty sure that a new tensioner on an old chain is asking for self-destruction. Check your cam gears. Only if they're good and square (and you don't mind risking worn chain guides) would I'd be tempted to try another tensioner.
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Excellent, thanks. That's what I needed to hear.
Cheers.
dh
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Could this noise be from the fuel injectors, Mine are very loud except at idle.
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OK, this is what I got so far. I've been very busy with finals and papers. I don't see any other problems after removing the top timing cover. I don't really want to remove the lower one if I don't have to. The guides look ok and everything else is fine as far as I can see. I want to try to fix the timing today and replace the cam gears and the tensioner. Hopefully it works out! Otherwise... I have to dive in and pull the lower cover :(
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If the tensioner piston goes in without any resistance, DO NOT drive the car. It is most likely that the idler sprocket, mentioned above, has had its bearings disintegrate and there is a bunch of slack in the system. Furthermore, the chain will be loose and slap around, and start eating away at the cylinder head casting in the lower corner of where the thermostat sits. Chances are that the chain will need replacement at this point since slapping around causes the rollers to break off...and they may end up in your oil pump. Running with the cams partially unconstrained is also sort of scary. You will want to pull the lower oil pan check for metal. And of course, you really do not want to run the chain at high speed over the idler gear with no bearings...it is just grinding away on its steel hub.
The picture below is what Dave & I are talking about (this was my motor back in May, EXACT same symptoms). It failed about 1/4 mile from my parking space (that is when I started noticing the engine noise anyway). In the morning, I popped the tensioner piston to check it, put it back and ran it for 3 seconds. It was LOUD!
(http://bmw.e30tuner.com/images/my318is/pic/idlerfail/bmw001.jpg)
See thread here: http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13574
Seriously though, don't drive it anymore until you fix this, or you will completely destroy the motor. Good luck, keep up updated!
Oh, and here is a strong recommendation: buy a magnetic oil pan drain plug. See the picture in my linked thread for why...all six bearings were right there. It is also helpful if the chain starts to fall apart.
EDIT: You mentioned that you didn't find any big stuff in the oil pan. The tensioner still goes in without any resistance though, right? Weird. Maybe one of the side guide rails disintegrated or something. I am not sure if the chain jumped a tooth or not on the cam gears. The motor will actually run with pistons hitting valves (ask me how I know lol). It is NOISY all the time and sounds like a diesel engine. I don't think that it happened to you from what you say. If you want some tips for getting it all to TDC, there are a few ways to get it there / check it easily.
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Thanks a lot for the info and pictures, bmwman. I haven't driven it since it started making that noise other than to drive it home. I guess I'll just suck it up and take everything apart. :/ So I'm going to go ahead and order the deflection wheel (idler sprocket) and maybe a couple order things preemptively and return them if unnecessary. It's so expensive though!
I THINK everything else is okay. Part of me just wants to order all the new parts necessary and overhaul the whole timing deal while I'm in there. It's an old car with probably over 200,000 miles on it so who knows what's been replaced and when.
The guide rails on the sides seemed to be intact so you are probably right; The problem is lower than I would have hoped. Probably that idler sprocket. I'm ordering it now. And maybe everything else too...Thanks for the help and your pictures are awesome. SUPER helpful. I'll try to take pictures tomorrow of what I find but it just depends on whether or not my girlfriend is around.. or at least her camera. I'll update with what I find.
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I'm laying plans for this project after the New Year. New timing chain, sprockets, rails, tensioner, water pump, main seal, etc.
I can obtain the specialty tools locally.
I'm anticipating this being a full day's work, but no more.
(For background, I've pulled and installed an M20 from my other e30 and I've done a fair amount of work on that engine, as well as about everything else on that car. Plus I have a great buddy who happens to be an excellent mechanic with a very well-equipped shop.)
I'm thinking if we start in the morning, we're reassembling the engine by lunch.
Sound about right?
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Thanks a lot for the info and pictures, bmwman. I haven't driven it since it started making that noise other than to drive it home. I guess I'll just suck it up and take everything apart. :/ So I'm going to go ahead and order the deflection wheel (idler sprocket) and maybe a couple order things preemptively and return them if unnecessary. It's so expensive though!
I THINK everything else is okay. Part of me just wants to order all the new parts necessary and overhaul the whole timing deal while I'm in there. It's an old car with probably over 200,000 miles on it so who knows what's been replaced and when.
The guide rails on the sides seemed to be intact so you are probably right; The problem is lower than I would have hoped. Probably that idler sprocket. I'm ordering it now. And maybe everything else too...Thanks for the help and your pictures are awesome. SUPER helpful. I'll try to take pictures tomorrow of what I find but it just depends on whether or not my girlfriend is around.. or at least her camera. I'll update with what I find.
Yeah, that stupid little sprocket is expensive! I was pissed when I found out how much one was.
My recommendation is to replace EVERYTHING while in there so you will never need to worry about it again. I also recommend using some Permatex gasket sealer on all paper gaskets for reassembly. I took everything apart & scraped all the crap off, and I didn't want it leaking again. I like this stuff since it is high-temp and resists motor fluids.
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_High_Tack_Spray-A-Gasket_Sealant.htm
It is also nice because you can get a nice even coating. The brush-on version is also good, but can be messy.
Also, reinstalling the upper cover is a little less straight forward than you might think. You need to compress it on the profile gasket so that it is flush with the head. You do this with some M6 screws & washers and the valve cover. Thread all upper cover bolts, but leave them a little loose so the cover can move around a little. Remove the VC gasket and use the washers / screws to clamp the valve cover down onto the top of the upper cover and press it flush with the head. Then tighten the upper cover bolts.
When using the sealer, be careful when reinstalling the covers. The gaskets can slide around as they are squeezed and end up half out! Tighten all cover bolts hand-tight, then make another pass at them with the ratchet tightening them a little more. Make 3-4 passes to get them to full tightness, and you should be fine. Don't tighten one fully and then proceed to the next loose one or you may end up cracking the cover.
I'm laying plans for this project after the New Year. New timing chain, sprockets, rails, tensioner, water pump, main seal, etc.
I can obtain the specialty tools locally.
I'm anticipating this being a full day's work, but no more.
(For background, I've pulled and installed an M20 from my other e30 and I've done a fair amount of work on that engine, as well as about everything else on that car. Plus I have a great buddy who happens to be an excellent mechanic with a very well-equipped shop.)
I'm thinking if we start in the morning, we're reassembling the engine by lunch.
Sound about right?
Well, it depends. If you just want to slam through it and put it all back together, it will be a FULL day if you have a helper. If this is your first time, it is going to be a weekend project if you want to do it right. If you decide to pull the timing case off and replace the gasket behind it, then this is at least a weekend job. Getting it back in can be done without removing the cylinder head, but it is a nerve-wracking pain. If you decide to do that, ask me for some advice.
If you want to do the overhaul and clean every part thoroughly and repair all of the (probably) stripped valve cover bolt holes, and any others in the head (which are likely), this is a 2-4 day job for a first-timer. You will also want to pull the lower oil pan and check for debris, and most importantly, check the upper pan bolts around the pick-up sump. Those have a tendency to strip / fall out (which can lead to an implosion of the gasket around the pick-up in the upper pan), and you may need to do some thread repair in the bottom of the timing case. That requires removal of the upper oil pan, and is a pain in the ass to get off of the car.
Anyway, I can give more advice if you decide to do that stuff. Just start a thread when you do.
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Thanks a ton, man.
That helps me plan properly for the project.
I will start a thread when I'm ordering all the bits and getting all the sundry extras I'll need lined up.
I like to do as much prep as possible -- buying all the necessary bolts and nuts and so forth in advance, being ready for the typical "surprises" that crop up, etc., and your advice is already very valuable.
Cheers,
dh
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Don't forget the new correct bolt for the right side guide rail 07 11 9 919 629. It is 5mm longer than the original to compensate for the adjusting screw. And if I was trying to do the job in one day I would have a spare one of these 07 11 9 919 941. I have had to use vice grips to get it off an m42 I have broken down.
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This stuff is pure gold, monko. Many thanks.
dh
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monko, that's very interesting about the 45mm M6 screw for the guide rail. I bet that using the original 40mm one is why I ended up with stripped threads in the head!
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A buddy of mine and I just removed the upper and lower timing case covers and it took about 5-6 hours. He's had some experience and it was my first time. The loosening of the crank bolt was hilariously barbaric but pretty easy following the Brendan Purcell instructions. That's pretty much what I followed the whole time (and it's really nice and straight forward) but he doesn't say anything about removing the A/C compressor and the bracket which more or less has to be removed in order to pull out the lower cover. In the pictures it doesn't even look like he had one anyway haha.
Ok. Here is what we found. I'll go ahead and show you the good news first.
(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/peabnutbubber/photo22.jpg)
The idler sprocket /deflection wheel / tensioner sprocket is totally fine! In fact, it looks pretty new.
However, there was a slight issue that was immediately noticeable when the lower cover finally popped off. The bad news:
(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/peabnutbubber/photo11.jpg)
You may be able to tell my dismay from the picture.
(http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa480/peabnutbubber/photo.jpg)
So. This is where I am at now. I was crossing my fingers so badly to get back on the road again soon so this is pretty disappointing. So this thing was literally just bouncing around in the timing case and that's what was making all the noise. Sounds kind of crazy to me I think. I haven't researched this yet, (I just finished with exams today) but is the timing case a pop-off and replace kind of deal or what? Is this a head removal job? Should I just forget it and go for a new engine? I need some help I think.
On the plus side, the BMW dealership called today and told me they didn't have the idler sprocket so they totally refunded me.:p However, I have a new timing chain, rails, and upper and lower timing cover gaskets on the way from FCPEuro. (Awesome customer service from what I can tell btw)
I'm hoping this is just a new timing case deal. I miss my car.
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I think I have a post that got caught in the filter but when it's up, you can see what I found in my timing case...
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I think I have a post that got caught in the filter but when it's up, you can see what I found in my timing case...
Do tell!
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Do tell!
I'll just let it be a surprise, I think :D
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subscribed ... :D
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I approved it. Maybe a little Elmer's will fix that up?
Glad you caught that before the motor munched eight valves...
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Don't forget the new correct bolt for the right side guide rail 07 11 9 919 629. It is 5mm longer than the original to compensate for the adjusting screw. And if I was trying to do the job in one day I would have a spare one of these 07 11 9 919 941. I have had to use vice grips to get it off an m42 I have broken down.
i think i missed something here, what is the adjusting screw you're referring to that's different from the factory setup?
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i think i missed something here, what is the adjusting screw you're referring to that's different from the factory setup?
Here are a couple of pictures to show what I am talking about.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Stan141/m42rebuild036.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Stan141/m42rebuild037.jpg
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Looks familiar
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Stan141/91%20Red/DSCN1570.jpg
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Is that broken pulley Number 11 on RealOEM?
Is part of the broken pulley still stuck in the block? If so, how do you persuade it to come out? :-)
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=11_4367&hg=11&fg=25
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Here are a couple of pictures to show what I am talking about.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Stan141/m42rebuild036.jpg
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Stan141/m42rebuild037.jpg
thanks for the info, seems kind of stupid of BMW to sell an updated part without a necessary updated bolt to match. usually pelican will tell you that kind of info but i guess it's not common knowledge. what about the second part number you posted, 07 11 9 919 941, where does that go?
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Is that broken pulley Number 11 on RealOEM?
Is part of the broken pulley still stuck in the block? If so, how do you persuade it to come out? :-)
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=AF93&mospid=47305&btnr=11_4367&hg=11&fg=25
The pulley itself is fine oddly enough. What is broken is the actual timing case itself. I want to replace it but I don't know if I am going to have to remove the head and the oil pan and stuff. Does anyone know of a write up?... or maybe someone can give me some details of the job if they've done it before.
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Ah, I see. Now I think I understand the pictures. The case broke where the pulley mounted to it? That does suck!
As far as pulling the head and oil pan, I can't see that as being all that much more work, given how deep you are into the engine now.
I've never worked on an M42, though, to speak of, so take my thought with a huge grain of salt.
Do you have to do something crazy like lower the front subframe or steering gear to get to the oil pan?
I mean, been there, done that on an M20. But still! :-)
dh
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OK, here's what you do. Get an M44 timing case (used ones are cheap, just ask around here, r3vlimited & bimmerforums). It does not even bother with that stupid sprocket. Instead, it has a plastic guide rail there. It has been discussed in here, and is a direct swap as far as I am aware. I would have done it had I known about it back in July when I pulled it all apart.
You should ask around in here about it. A few folks have done it & may be able to give some pointers.
I am glad that you found the issue before anything really serious happened. It is a bummer, believe me, I know. My oil pump ate a chunk of timing chain in 2006 and exploded part of the timing case.
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+1 on that. Upgrade to all the newest parts, BMW really improved the motor as time went on. Most of the M44 parts are a direct fit, though some are a far cheaper spec.
I know for sure someone posted a writeup here, but I couldn't find it. IIRC one significant difference was the oil pump rotor was changed to a different thickness, but still works on the M42 crank. I haven't done this yet myself (so take this with a grain of salt), but I'd figure on a new gasket set, front main seal & water pump.
***edit***
Here it is (http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=104101). Mike posted some great pics. He has some detailed info, maybe PM him to see if he ran into any snags.
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Thanks a ton again, I'll start a new post in WTB and see if I get any bites. I might be able to get the car to an enclosed garage soon and then most of this work will be a little easier.
I've read about the upgraded timing components and I'll see how fast I can get them. Hopefully acquiring this case doesn't cause me too much pain. I'd hate to see what the dealer charges but for the sake of time it may come to that!
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I already checked the price on Pelican.
FWIW, I'm asking around my peeps to see if I can find one.
I will let you know.
dh
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I highly recommend doing the job in an indoor setting. Getting the timing case back on is a real pain in the ass!
I recommend picking up some 0.005" brass shim stock. Try to get it in a length that is a little larger than the top of the timing case, and 3" or more wide.
I recommend using some Ultra Black silicone RTV in the channel on the top of the timing case and then pressing the profile gasket into it. Wipe off the excess. Spread a small amount of silicone assembly grease on the top of the gasket, and on the under-side of the head where the gasket mates. Don't forget about the big gasket that goes behind the case. There are locating sleeves in the block, so I sprayed both sides of this gasket lightly with gasket sealer, let them dry, and placed them onto the block.
Get the oil pump aligned with the crank, put the brass shim stock on top of the gasket and put the top partially under the head. You can then CAREFULLY use a jack to push up on the timing case to compress the profile gasket. I found that using a large wood clamp (across block & case) to pull the case bottom toward & onto the crank helped. Don't force it though, you need to get the oil pump into alignment first.
Then use the bolts to do the rest. The profile gasket will probably squeeze out at its ends a little. I trimmed these off & used big dabs of RTV to make sure it all sealed. Run your finger inside the hole by the thermostat housing and make sure that the gasket is nice & even around the perimeter...you don't want this blowing out.
As for the brass shim stock that it now stuck between the head & gasket, you are going to need to pull it out with some vise-grips. I pulled the kidney grills out to pull straight onto it. Work it from the sides & middle a little at a time. I was stupid and "lubricated" this part with more RTV, and it made things very very difficult. Eventually, I yanked the shim stock out. Silicone assembly grease should make this step much easier.
(http://bmw.e30tuner.com/images/my318is/pic/overhaul2011/bmw015.jpg)
Alternatively, you can remove the cylinder head & replace all the stuff associated with that. It makes the timing case installation easier, although in the end it is still a pain.
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damn, the more i read about replacing the timing components, the more i worry that i'm going to mess it up. i'm replacing the head at the same time so hopefully it'll be easy enough.
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If you are going to pull the head, then it is a lot less likely that you'll have an "oops" when re-installing the timing case. I always wanted to pull the head & take a look at the cylinders, and make the T.Case easier to put on, but I kept thinking, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
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Man, it looks like this job has grown to be a big one pretty quickly. I had to abandon the car for a little in order to visit the fam during the winter break, but when I come back I am returning with an engine hoist and a stand in order to take care of this engine. I'm not sure if it is totally necessary to pull it out but it may make the job easier and I'll be able to clean everything up and check other stuff as well. Unfortunately, working indoors is not really an option, so I'll have to do the best I can in the driveway.
If I upgrade to the M44 case, does anything else need to be replaced as well? as in can all the current parts be reused? I'm trying to decide between just going with another M42 T case if I find one of those first or if it really is worth is for the M44 one. I'll see the dealer tomorrow and get a quote for the M44 case to see what they say.
I like the suggestion for replacing the case bmwman, but if I pull out the engine it may just be better (and safer given my total inexperience) to pull the head carefully with one of the write ups on here. Then again, I'm not really sure of the plausibility of any of this until I jump in there. Again, I'm pretty new at all this and I'm learning everything as I go!
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If you can find a whole late-model M42 it'll likely have those parts as well. I'm pretty sure that they ran the deflector from late '94 onward. You'd have to swap out the serpentine belt setup for the older v-belts, but I think that's the only significant change.
Don't take my word for this, definitely double-check, I haven't done this myself.
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I recommend breaking the big crank damper bolt loose while the engine is in the car. You can USUALLY use the starter motor to do it. Remove the air box & belts, stick a 4x4 piece of wood where the air box was, put a breaker bar w/ 22mm socket on the bolt oriented about vertical, and then turn the key. THWACK! You may need to smack the bar into the wood block 4-5 times to get it loose. Don't hold the starter on for more than 2-3 seconds at a time. This works like a charm for me.
As far as getting it tightened up to 244ft-lbs, you'll probably want to do that on the car as well. I am not sure how you'll lock the crank (the clutch will slip, so that won't work). I made a locking tool, so you may need to make one too. I'll mail it to you if you are willing to pay postage both ways...but it weighs about 30 lbs (big piece of 1/2" steel plate).
If you remove the head, I BELIEVE that you just need to get a new head gasket and new head bolts. Those bolts must be tightened in exactly the order given in the service manual, exactly to the specified torque.
For the M44 timing case, others have said that you need the M44 oil pump gears & cover. I assume that most used ones will have these things in them anyway since it is all integral. Just ask the seller.
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If you can find a whole late-model M42 it'll likely have those parts as well. I'm pretty sure that they ran the deflector from late '94 onward. You'd have to swap out the serpentine belt setup for the older v-belts, but I think that's the only significant change.
I think you mean you need to swap out the v-belt for the serp belt, right? The serp belt needs to be used with the m44 case? If that's the case then you'll need the alternator and bracket from the m44. I have a new set of head bolts if you want them, I went with studs instead.
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I recommend breaking the big crank damper bolt loose while the engine is in the car. You can USUALLY use the starter motor to do it. Remove the air box & belts, stick a 4x4 piece of wood where the air box was, put a breaker bar w/ 22mm socket on the bolt oriented about vertical, and then turn the key. THWACK! You may need to smack the bar into the wood block 4-5 times to get it loose. Don't hold the starter on for more than 2-3 seconds at a time. This works like a charm for me.
This has to be done in order to get the lower timing case off. I did this already and it seems really barbaric but it worked perfectly after only 2 hits. I feared for my brakes while I was doing it but the wood worked just fine. I used a couple of pieces of plywood supported by a short 4x4 block. Worked just fine.
And the oil pump pieces basically come with the timing case? I'll look up a diagram for how this works so I can have a better idea. From where I am now it looks like the oil filter housing has to come off and the lower oil pan in order to remove the timing case. (As well as the head which will come off too.) I was looking at the head gasket replacement job write up and I see what you mean about the specific torquing patterns.
Is there anything you guys recommend doing while I'm in there? Changing gaskets for sure. I have an oil leak that I'm pretty sure is coming from the oil filter housing but that should be taken care of with the permatex technique bmwman outlined prior. (If I'm not careful this could turn into a total rebuild "while I'm in there" :cool:)
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I think you mean you need to swap out the v-belt for the serp belt, right? The serp belt needs to be used with the m44 case? If that's the case then you'll need the alternator and bracket from the m44. I have a new set of head bolts if you want them, I went with studs instead.
Nah, I figured he'd stick with the older parts instead of swapping them over. Either way would work, I guess. I'm pretty hazy on this, but I thought that either case can be used with either drive system. There were three different belt setups IIRC.
Makes me think I'd like to try out the serpentine setup on mine, seems very clean and likely gets me an r134 compressor to boot.
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Ok, I'm back at the place in Tallahassee and still no working BMW. I have, however, come across a low mileage M42 with all the accessories but also with a blown head gasket. I'm going to attempt to pull the timing case from this one. Now I just have to get that crank bolt loose...
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I did my crank bolt by making a tool. Just a piece of steel with two holes drilled to match a couple of holes on the crank shaft drive pulley. Leave room or shape the steel to give access to the bolt. Wedging that against the ground and using a 4 foot piece of pipe on the breaker bar made loosening the bolt fairly easy.
Making the tool also lets you put a decent amount of torque back on the bolt. I'm sure I didn't come close to the spec'd torque though.
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Personally I would pull the oil pans off of both motors and see which one has the least wear on the thrust bearing.
I made a crank holding tool with an old pulley and a floor jack handle. Had the youngest stepdaughters boyfriend weld it for me and it works great.
Also I have heard that you can loosen the crank bolt by pulling the pan and sticking a 2x4 between the inside of the block and a crank counter balance.
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It's just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, BUT, I'd seriously consider changing that crank sprocket of yours. I've read that it usually doesn't need to be changed, but IMHO, yours has all the earmarks of one that is worn out.
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Not to thread-jack, but...speaking of thrust bearings...who starts their car with the clutch pedal down, and who starts with the clutch pedal up?
I ran across a site that suggested the thrust bearing will last a lot longer if you start it in neutral with the pedal up. Makes sense to me; I leave the clutch pedal out even though I was taught to always push the pedal down.
I've also just found out that if your M42 conks out and you're in a bad spot, you can put the car in first & use the starter to pull the car out of the way. I wouldn't advise doing a lot of that though; can't possibly be good for the battery or the starter brushes.
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After looking everything over, making the tool was my first idea. However, someone just offered me a timing case for $50 so I'm just going to go with that instead of having to rent all the tools from Advanced again in order to take this newer engine apart. On top of that, it is sitting on the floor of my room right now. It does only have 104,000 miles on it so maybe it's worth a new head gasket.
It's just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, BUT, I'd seriously consider changing that crank sprocket of yours. I've read that it usually doesn't need to be changed, but IMHO, yours has all the earmarks of one that is worn out.
That's what I thought too because the teeth looked so sharp, but every time I see a picture of one it seems that they all have sharp teeth like that. Can anyone clarify this?
And as for Dave I always start the car without the clutch pedal depressed, but I don't really know much about that.
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Not to thread-jack, but...speaking of thrust bearings...who starts their car with the clutch pedal down, and who starts with the clutch pedal up?
I ran across a site that suggested the thrust bearing will last a lot longer if you start it in neutral with the pedal up. Makes sense to me; I leave the clutch pedal out even though I was taught to always push the pedal down.
I actually shut the engine off and then put it into gear.
Before I start the car I take it out of gear.
In both cases my foot is off the clutch pedal when the engine is turning.
I've read that this makes it easier on the thrust bearing. If you have the stock M42 configuration, i would highly suggest that you do the same.
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Secondary indicator on the crank sprocket is the "canoeing" of the saddles between the teeth. Round chain rollers are no longer tightly coddled by the sprocket. I think I learned that term on this website. Try doing a search on it & see if you can get more info.
Dave, Starting with clutch in saves wear on the starter & drain on the battery by not having to churn up cold transmission oil. Also a good habit to get into to prevent launching the car into the one parked in front of you on the rare occasion of forgetting you're not driving the wife's automatic and leaving it in gear when you turn the key. (Not that I would know anything about that...)
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The crank sprocket has sharp teeth, even new. The cam sprockets have the blunt ends and get sharp when worn. It's weird, but look up a picture of a new crank sprocket & you'll see that it has pointy teeth.
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I received an M42 timing case from someone off of r3v. Now I just have to remove everything around the timing case to replace it. It looks like there's a lot of stuff in there...
I think I'm going to start a new thread for the timing case and its replacement.
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This is the next thread... so far I've been making slow progress
http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14468