M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: M42_Jester on March 08, 2011, 06:14:38 PM
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Just a quick question about the DASC Kit and it's performance increase. My research shows that applying this kit to a standard M42 engine will give an increase of approx. 60% in both power and torque. would this be accurcate?
here are some results of Power/Torque increase on a M44 powered 318iS with the DASC, as seen in "101 Performance Projects for your BMW: 3 Series 1982 - 2000" by Wayne R. Dempsey
(http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/101-Projects-22-Supercharger/Pic5-01.jpg)
Stock Power: peak ~138hp (103kW)
Stock Torque: peak ~125ft-lb (175Nm)
SC Power: peak ~220hp (169kW)
SC Torque: peak ~175ft-lb (230Nm)
just curious if these are correct? if so, by applying the DASC to the MM 2100 FI Rally engine (205hp, 225Nm) the power would increase to well over 300hp!! very much excited to hear your opinions on this.
Cheers,
Jester
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DASC @ 7-8psi = 180-185whp tuned
DASC @ 10psi = 195-200whp tuned
There is a few guys running DASC 15psi pullys with meth, but I have not heard of what numbers they are putting down
as a comparison
M42 10:1 Turbo @ 12psi = 240-250whp tuned
14.7 psi will double your NA crank hp and is a good rule of thumb to fallow, but is in noway accurate due to the real world variables
You have a solid motor if your running MM, you didn't mention what pully size you plan on running, but just becarefull of the heat that SC kit can produce, can be deadly .
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For now it's just forward planning. But i would want to run as much boost as possible. When u mention heat can be deadly, do u mean for the pistons? I do realise that when you have pistons that aren't rated for forced induction they can melt, but the MM engine i'm looking is designed to counteract that. specifically made for forced induction. or was there something else I should be worried about?
Jester
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I'd suspect the big limitation of the DASC is that it's designed for a relatively high-compression stock M42. It also doesn't run an IC (though I loved that thread with the ZeroG manifold water-to-air unit, very clever stuff there).
I'd cut compression down, like 8:1 or so, if I was doing forced induction. Personally, I'd go for a turbo too, they give a lot more design choices than the DASC and they don't demand so much parasitic drag.
The MM engine is designed to run NA as I see it, high compression & no knock sensors are something to think about.
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I hate to be a heretic but for the cost of the MM engine and a supercharger, you could be putting an LSx in.
I have the DASC on the stock 1.8 and really like it but around town it
drives pretty much like what I imagine a stock 1.8 would feel like. With the throttle open and above 4K RPM, you are going for a ride, but for normal driving the dual turbo MINI Cooper S would stomp it.
Just a quick question about the DASC Kit and it's performance increase. My research shows that applying this kit to a standard M42 engine will give an increase of approx. 60% in both power and torque. would this be accurcate?
here are some results of Power/Torque increase on a M44 powered 318iS with the DASC, as seen in "101 Performance Projects for your BMW: 3 Series 1982 - 2000" by Wayne R. Dempsey
(http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/101-Projects-22-Supercharger/Pic5-01.jpg)
Stock Power: peak ~138hp (103kW)
Stock Torque: peak ~125ft-lb (175Nm)
SC Power: peak ~220hp (169kW)
SC Torque: peak ~175ft-lb (230Nm)
just curious if these are correct? if so, by applying the DASC to the MM 2100 FI Rally engine (205hp, 225Nm) the power would increase to well over 300hp!! very much excited to hear your opinions on this.
Cheers,
Jester
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For now it's just forward planning. But i would want to run as much boost as possible. When u mention heat can be deadly, do u mean for the pistons? I do realise that when you have pistons that aren't rated for forced induction they can melt, but the MM engine i'm looking is designed to counteract that. specifically made for forced induction. or was there something else I should be worried about?
Jester
What I was referring to was exactly what dave pointed out, and that is there is no induction air cooling system with DASC kit and that means you are very limited to how much boost you can run without introducing meth injection
my advice to you would be to go turbo as well
$1500 later and I was boosting 15psi stock internals 10:1 compression, and making 270-280whp tuned
mysetup with a mild tune http://www.youtube.com/user/bearsbmw?feature=mhum#p/u/1/M38uEQetPKU
sure it is a little more custom work, but overall you will appreciate the flexibility you get with a turbo setup, not to mention more overall power
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The MM engine is designed to run NA as I see it, high compression & no knock sensors are something to think about.
MM have designed an engine that is made for Forced Induction. it has lower compression (8.6:1) and the pistons have been designed to cope with the heat.
I've got a spec sheet on the engine itself if u want to know more about it. but it doesn't specify whether it's for Turbo or SC applications. agreed, you do get a lot more power out of a turbo, but at the same time, i don't want to be another one of those people who sticks a turbo on his car to get more power. I want to go the way of the DASC to be different from the other dickhead drivers down here in oz...
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An s/c'd car feels different than a turbo car because the boost is linear and gives an even bump in torque/hp across the rpm range. It'll feel more like you dropped a six in it. Turbo cars feel like they are building power exponentially as you climb in rpm's, more exhilarating imo.
I'd guess though that s/c'd m42 vs. turbo m42 with the same peak specs, the s/c car is going to be quicker simply because it's more flexible.
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It isn't that clear cut though. The bypass on the DASC doesn't start boosting until 1/2 throttle and it is at full boost only at full throttle.
I like mine and I suspect it would improve with a good tune but it isn't a powerhouse at low RPM, moderate accelerator input. It's difficult to not be on one side of the line or the other, at least for me.
Having said that, I've noticed that I'm generally leading the crowd from stop lights. I have a pretty light foot and short shift a lot.
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It isn't that clear cut though. The bypass on the DASC doesn't start boosting until 1/2 throttle and it is at full boost only at full throttle.
I like mine and I suspect it would improve with a good tune but it isn't a powerhouse at low RPM, moderate accelerator input. It's difficult to not be on one side of the line or the other, at least for me.
Having said that, I've noticed that I'm generally leading the crowd from stop lights. I have a pretty light foot and short shift a lot.
I understand that the bypass would cause some differences from a normal type SC...but wat would happen if they bypass module was either closed shut perminantly, or removed all together? would that not giv u the boost u want all the time?
Jester
PS. i've also noticed that my original question has yet to be answered :P I was just wanting to know if i put the DASC on the MM 2100 M42 FI engine, would i get roughly a 60% increase in power and torque like it does to a standard M42?
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I understand that the bypass would cause some differences from a normal type SC...but wat would happen if they bypass module was either closed shut perminantly, or removed all together? would that not giv u the boost u want all the time?
Jester
PS. i've also noticed that my original question has yet to be answered :P I was just wanting to know if i put the DASC on the MM 2100 M42 FI engine, would i get roughly a 60% increase in power and torque like it does to a standard M42?
What is the official compression ratio on the MM 2100?
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8.6:1
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I understand that the bypass would cause some differences from a normal type SC...but wat would happen if they bypass module was either closed shut perminantly, or removed all together? would that not giv u the boost u want all the time?
QUOTE]
you'd be running boost at idle, and bad fuel economy too. the new units have an incorporated bypass valve at the factory. it's there for a reason and i wouldn't run without a bypass. besides... when do you really need the s/c? more power and torque so full throttle or close to it.
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I'm just wondering wat the numbers would roughly be on an MM 2100 M42 Forced Induction with the DASC... does anyone know? was i close to the mark with the 60% power and torque increase? if so...here are the numbers:
--MM 2100 M42 FI--
Power: 205hp
Torque: 225Nm
SC Power: 328hp (60% of 205 = 123)
SC Torque: 360Nm (60% of 225 = 135)
Does that sound about right to anyone else?
Roughly 273rwhp (328 - 17%) unless you change the Diff and so on...but the torque would blow anyone away! is anyone else as excited about those numbers as I am?
Jester
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MM 2.1l 8K +
DASC 3K +
For over 11K, not really
That would almost get you a 95 M3 for instance.
I suspect you could get 90% of the joy for 1/4 the money.
I wonder what ROB_E30 has in his engine.
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MM 2.1l 8K +
DASC 3K +
For over 11K, not really
That would almost get you a 95 M3 for instance.
I suspect you could get 90% of the joy for 1/4 the money.
I wonder what ROB_E30 has in his engine.
If all you worry about is the money and not the end result (having a 4-cylinder monster) then of course it won't excite you.
Who would you rather be. the guy with another E36 M3, or the guy with a custom tuned M42 that would put a 95 M3 to shame?
I choose the latter
Jester
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Jester, your argument does sound like it holds water. Personally, I have no expertise here, but I'd figure your estimates are in the ballpark. As long as the S/C isn't running outside of it's performance envelope...they only push so much air.
I don't think a 2.1L would overwhelm a small blower like the DASC. It would be pretty unique. The cost gives me pause too. It's a lot of risk & cash considering potential benefits, but you'd have bragging rights AND quite the beastly little car...
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If I were dealing with unlimited dollars, I'd have someone build me a carbon fiber replica of an e30 with a 2 inch chop, 6-speed, and an ls6.
If I had 11K to spend, I'd probably have a decent rebuild, the DASC, 6speed, and spend the rest on the suspension. I'd probably still have something left over. :) This is assuming the suspension is in good shape to begin with. If not, I'd start there before touching the engine.
While you are scheming though, I'd consider using one of the newer Eaton superchargers. They have a bypass system based on engine demand instead of the mechanical system the DASC uses. I haven't seen one but I suspect you could end up with a lighter setup as well, which would be nice since that weight is high up on the car.
If all you worry about is the money and not the end result (having a 4-cylinder monster) then of course it won't excite you.
Who would you rather be. the guy with another E36 M3, or the guy with a custom tuned M42 that would put a 95 M3 to shame?
I choose the latter
Jester
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The DASC is an eaton, the bypass is vacume/boost operated not a mechanical linkage to the throttle. If the standard DASC is too wimpy, there are larger blowers in the eaton line, you'd just have to adapt them to the DASC manifold. I think the DASC was a Eaton M47 the Eaton M62 is about 30% more capacity. Both blowers are out of regular production, DA is phasing them out last I heard because of this. The newer eaton is different shape and size so does not fit in the same hole as the older units.
Note: A lot of this is just acquired from other forums and such so .... YMMV
If I were dealing with unlimited dollars, I'd have someone build me a carbon fiber replica of an e30 with a 2 inch chop, 6-speed, and an ls6.
If I had 11K to spend, I'd probably have a decent rebuild, the DASC, 6speed, and spend the rest on the suspension. I'd probably still have something left over. :) This is assuming the suspension is in good shape to begin with. If not, I'd start there before touching the engine.
While you are scheming though, I'd consider using one of the newer Eaton superchargers. They have a bypass system based on engine demand instead of the mechanical system the DASC uses. I haven't seen one but I suspect you could end up with a lighter setup as well, which would be nice since that weight is high up on the car.
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On mine there is what looks to be a mechanical connection from the throttle body to what looks like a path around the compressor. Apologies I have been misleading. I went out to have a look at mine after finding an article in Pelican's book describing it. Mine does have a vacuum valve controlling the bypass. It looked to be tapped into a port on the throttle body, which seems wrong. Anyone have one that they could tell be where it is tapped into?
The DASC is an eaton, the bypass is vacume/boost operated not a mechanical linkage to the throttle. If the standard DASC is too wimpy, there are larger blowers in the eaton line, you'd just have to adapt them to the DASC manifold. I think the DASC was a Eaton M47 the Eaton M62 is about 30% more capacity. Both blowers are out of regular production, DA is phasing them out last I heard because of this. The newer eaton is different shape and size so does not fit in the same hole as the older units.
Note: A lot of this is just acquired from other forums and such so .... YMMV
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Its normal for the vacume actuator to be plumbed to the intake manifold or on many ,, it just plumbs to the flange of the blower housing. The newer eaton blowers have the whole bypass integrated to the blower. From observation on a couple it looks like the thing closes the bypass as soon as the intake manifold is at a neutral or slightly pressurized state. Magnessun is the re-builder for eaton products and has a lot of good technical info on their website, Including pressure curve charts on the units.
Fun stuff!
Dave