M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Interior => Topic started by: DesktopDave on October 24, 2010, 09:05:39 AM
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Swapped my sunroof for a power unit last night. I'm not entirely pleased with my progress - it keeps hanging up for the last inch or two...I can't recall who told me that you can remove the cable assembly without pulling the fabric from the windscreen...but the advice was spot on! It's not easy to do, but it's possible. I pulled the fabric from the doors & the passenger side of the sunroof only. Worked like a charm (after I pulled a well hidden ziptie from the passenger front drain tube).
I've had sunroof problems with that car since day one. Stupid thing. Let me share my year-long quest for a functional hole in my roof:
1. Car arrives with a half-stuck roof. It won't budge, and I can hear a screw rolling 'round up there.
Result: I cut the panel fabric, remove the works & get the broken cable out. Two screws fell out, it's a miracle they didn't plug the drains. I also replace the cracked crank gear and fit a used fabric panel. Good thing I have a spare.
2. Car breaks driver's cable. Lifter cracked clean off. It was just a spare set I had, so I'm not that bummed. If you do buy a used set, be absolutely sure the carrier has ZERO cracking near those four little rivets.
Result: installed a nice used set of cables from Vines Auto on EBay. At least I didn't have to rip the panel fabric off.
3. I note that the roof is getting harder and harder to open properly. Finally it jams solid this week. I take it apart (not in the nice way) and note that a screw has fallen out. It's wedged into the lifter block & popped the driver's cable out of the track. So it's all my fault - maybe I should have used blue loctite on the retainers? I'd never have gotten them out of the plastic mounting rail if I had though.
Result: I have to cut up that d@mn panel again (good thing I have a spare, eh?) and swap a full power sunroof and headliner in. The wiring is easier than I expect, as long as you get the whole pigtail. There's a big fat green/blue wire from the power windows already waiting. I also ran wiring for a bluetooth head unit and installed a map light mirror. Unfortunately I wasn't ready to wire up my check control panel...that'll have to wait. I'll probably install a Palm or something else fun there instead.
Took me several hours, and it's still not right. Close though. I'll report more as time goes on. Anyone need a spare crank setup? Mine's in great shape, except the little crank handle comes off too easily.
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Why didn't you ask me? I've literally done all those things (thankfully they went mildly smoothly with the exception of a bad relay that was a bear to diagnose). I did the same with my maplight mirror. I'm quite happy that I've basically done next to no splicing with all the new toys I've put in on the car.
OK, on the sunroof, first and foremost you need to grease the holy hogsnot out of the cables. And then grease them some more, and then maybe one more time to be safe. Then check in it a week and put in some more grease. Am I making a point on this? :)
So the way the system works is pretty simple. Here is a cut and paste of what I wrote on E30tech on this:
To give a bit more detail to anyone considering doing this: If you look at the power- or manual for that matter- bracket, it has 2 "tubes" coming out of it. I always thought this was a closed loop in that the cables were attached and went all the way around and you would basically have to remove the entire headliner and assembly to mess with it. This is very WRONG.
So the 2 "tubes" come out on each side of the bracket. Each tube goes on each side of the teeth to the motor. This is the exposed area in the bracket in between the tubes. So one of the tubes is routed all the way back to the sunroof itself. The other one is just a guide for the part that gets pushed or pulled through. It really is quite simple, yet ingenious and easy to service once you figure out how it all works.
When you "pull" the sunroof closed, it just takes the excess cable and routes it through the appropriate tube. When you "push" the sunroof open, it takes up that excess and shoves it all back through with just enough cable to open the sunroof all the way. The reason you can push and pull everything is b/c the cables are quite hard- flexible but not "fold in half" flexible. This in addition to the tubes and the tracks allow the sunroof to be pushed and pulled.
This is why having the cables lubed with copious amounts of grease is critical. While I had everything out, I just cleaned and re-greased the cables with the gnarliest grease I had around; BMW Final Drive (motorcycle) grease. My sunroof runs as smooth or smoother than brand new.
In terms of parts to grab, you'll need the entire overhead console. This sounds like a lot, but if it takes you more than 15 minutes to pull one out of a junk yard, you probably don't have any business doing this in the first place. Next is obviously the motor, switch and relay. Finally is the power bracket. This is secured by the screws you can see and 2 more that are under the- probably very brittle- styrofoam headliner stuff. You gotta be careful. There is also one screw on each side for the routing tubes I just explained. These are a touch tricky as you can easily tear your headliner, but there is enough room in there. Again you will have to feed it in and out of more styrofoam stuff, but patience and a helper get it sorted right out. When pulling the old stuff simply pull the cables all the way out and make sure not to bend the tubes. They will come out quite easily once you remove the tracks. Once you install, just take your copiously greased cables and route them in once you have the bracket in. The motor goes in last. Getting your relay set to work with the factory stops can be a bit of an undertaking, but that can be done after assembly is complete.
My wife was really patient while I worked on other stuff, and nabbed the whole harness out of a car all the way down the A pillar, so we even plugged in to OEM power- no splicing at all.
I know I just wrote a book, but it really is quite simple. The sunroof gets a real bum rap for being difficult to work on. Once you figure all the above out, it is pretty easy.
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I did read that exact article...and did as advised. I used Honda moly 60 lube - awesome stuff BTW - and greased the heck out of everything.
I'm still stuck on where the motor gets indexed. There is a microswitch there...how does that little plastic switch wheel get aligned so that the motor is timed right? I'm guessing that the sunroof gets installed in the closed position with the motor/gearbox out. That way the cables get aligned evenly. Then the motor gets spun to a timing mark & installed. I can see a mark on the wheel, but I can't see enough to get it installed correctly.
Call me "puzzled." I'll post some pics since I'm not being very clear about it.
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No I understand. I had to do just what you are describing on my first 325is.
You are correct in that you use an allen wrench to manually turn the motor until it gets to the indexing point. Once you are too that point, you move the sunroof to the correct position with the cables "off track" (from the motor).
Especially with all the grease and close conditions and the like, it is a bit of a PITA and frankly, I've not set mine up and just get everything lined up manually with the switch. Strangely, I think I have mine way off, or the motor I got from the yard is a bit different as I never have a stop.
So the way it is SUPPOSED to work (I'm certain of this from my last 2 original owner, non-enthusiast but dealer serviced 325is') that there are 3 stops:
1) just before it closes
2) when it is closed completely
3) when the tilt and up feature is used
Honestly, 1) in and of itself makes using the sunroof a bit of PITA in stock form and prefer mine just how it is as it really is quicker to close without the "safety" catch.
Hope that helps a bit...
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It does help. I think the real problem is the built-in friction clutch is now too loose. Either that or the cover is bent a bit to much & it locks up too soon.
I ran out of time this weekend...except for the last inch or so of the roof closing, it's functional again. I'll get it eventually.
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Hmmm. It shouldn't ever "lock up". Methinks you have something holding up the works in the tracks or the like.
Have you tried to do it all with just the Allen wrench? Prior to even using the motor, I opened and closed the sunroof completely a few times manually (yes it takes a while and you'll get carpel tunnel and a shoulder workout) just to make sure everything was lined up from a physical movement perspective.
It sounds like you've not gotten past this step just yet. Perhaps pull up the tracks on the sides (yes this is time consuming as you have to pull the front wind deflector thingy too) and then do the manual bit. This will cause the cables to push up if you are trying to open the sunroof, but you can get some ideas this way. You can also pull the motor and you should be able to fairly easily push and pull the sunroof open and closed- most of the way- just by using your hands (if you have enough grease on the cables- yep, I'm mentioning the grease again).
I think you are 90%+ of the way done and are to the difficult and time consuming parts of the process.
Something that just came to mind that might help; do you have the sunroof panel adjusted correctly? There are those 3 torx screws on each side to adjust the panel up and down just slightly to seat properly. I think you mentioned a couple pieces there you had to replace, and perhaps it's not in the same place?
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I did test the sunroof manually, and did crank the cables with the hex wrench. I noted that it started to have trouble after I clipped the liner panel back on. It's probably bent and hanging up on the forward part of the tracks, where it wedges in before the panel flips the back up.
Strangely, 'helping' it close with my hand makes it work. It's just too much resistance. I'll try readjusting the clutch tension first, before I take the front spoiler apart again. I'll keep my fingers crossed that I don't wear out a motor, but (you guessed it) good thing I have a spare.
I did replace the cables and the liner. The cables are well-lubed, it really made a huge difference in how easy it was to open.
I didn't test the microswitch either. Have to get out the old DMM.
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I bet the motor is fine. I've never heard of or seen one die. I never even tested the microswitch like I mentioned for ease of use.
I wouldn't fiddle with the clutch tension from OEM as it is obviously at a certain setting from the factory for a reason- I've never touched any of mine. Instead, I'd check for there being something hung up like you said. You are going to get sick of the broken record, but there should be enough grease to pretty much be dripping off the cables. I slathered mine endlessly and my junk yard conversion job is actually smoother than any of my other cars due to the quality and quantity of the grease.
Did you verify that the panel itself is adjusted and seats correctly? That's what the problem sounds like to me.
For reference, during my conversion I had to pull the spoiler and rails off no fewer than 10 times to get everything correct.
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I bet the motor is fine. I've never heard of or seen one die. I never even tested the microswitch like I mentioned for ease of use.
I wouldn't fiddle with the clutch tension from OEM as it is obviously at a certain setting from the factory for a reason- I've never touched any of mine. Instead, I'd check for there being something hung up like you said.
I'm going to try this anyway. If no motor has ever broken (I've never seen one either) I'd figure a twist or two might do the trick. That mechanism has to wear over time. Everything else on the car needs adjusted, right?
You are going to get sick of the broken record, but there should be enough grease to pretty much be dripping off the cables. I slathered mine endlessly and my junk yard conversion job is actually smoother than any of my other cars due to the quality and quantity of the grease.
Check. I used a half-tube of moly60. I couldn't tell that it was a cogged cable after I was done...and I was impressed at how well it works, thus my disappointment at this failure!
Did you verify that the panel itself is adjusted and seats correctly? That's what the problem sounds like to me.
For reference, during my conversion I had to pull the spoiler and rails off no fewer than 10 times to get everything correct.
Well, I'm half-way there. I pulled it apart five times to line it up & assemble it correctly. The metal panel is very close. Dead-on fore/aft, perfectly even side to side, maybe 1/2mm low on the rear corners. I'll tweak the final fit last.
That leaves the fabric inner panel as the most likely culprit. Too bad I can't just leave it off. I'll unsnap it, roll it back as far as I can, then re-test the upper panel alone. If the liner frame metal is twisted it'd bind when it slides tightly into the anti-rattle part of the roof track.
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That leaves the fabric inner panel as the most likely culprit. Too bad I can't just leave it off. I'll unsnap it, roll it back as far as I can, then re-test the upper panel alone. If the liner frame metal is twisted it'd bind when it slides tightly into the anti-rattle part of the roof track.
Yeah I think you are on track- no pun intended. :)
Check to make sure all 5- I think- clips have snapped fully into place.
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Thanks, you're all help here.
Six clips on this particular problem. They even have little foam gaskets, the spoiled b@stards.
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My car doesn't have a sunroof. Whew.
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My car doesn't have a sunroof. Whew.
It really is easier than it sounds. Now that I've had one in each of my cars, I can't stand not to have one. My GTI didn't have one (another car it is rare not to have one) and it drove me nuts. However, I also am lazy enough that the crank style was pathetic and couldn't do without the motor. Man, I am spoiled
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I was browsing the official BMW Repair Manual and it does have directions...the slip clutch nut has to be torqued to 39 +/- 3 in/lb (450 +/- 35 Nm). Either my PDF is a bad scan (most likely) or it looks like BMW missed a decimal point there...should be 4.5 +/- 0.3 Nm...I don't think the sunroof clutch requires more torque than the crank bolt...
Guess I'll be buying a new tool...my cheap Chinese torque wrench won't do 4 ft-pounds. Maybe it's time for a new Craftsman or Snap-on? Not like it doesn't get any use...
They also spec a 'zero position' for proper alignment. Marking on the big plastic (switching) gear wheel aligns with the mark on the smaller (control) gear. A 4mm hex key can be used to position the slides so that the roof panel is properly positioned. I always did wonder why the lifter segment on the track had a groove marking on top, now I finally understand.
(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/318i/th_SunroofAdjustment.jpg) (http://s729.photobucket.com/albums/ww299/desktopdave/318i/?action=view¤t=SunroofAdjustment.jpg)
I'll snap some pics if I get to it this week.
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Well, it was the slip clutch. After I'd adjusted it a bit tighter, the sunroof closed right up. And the relay, for some odd reason, doesn't click the sunroof closed on the "zero position." I can deal with that later, like while I'm wiring up my map lights.
Sunroof is functional and fully powered. Now that I've greased it solid with moly spline lube...it is so very smooth.
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WOOHOO! Well I must stand corrected then. Good info on torque specs for the clutch too.
In terms of the relay and the stops, mine doesn't either and I think it is just catching everything and lining up correctly. IMO I wouldn't bother. You not only have to have the stop set up correctly, but the panel itself needs to be aligned in perfect conjunction or you will get wind noise. By the stop not being there, it is easier to adjust while driving. Without the bike rack on, mine is really quiet. I think the panel is also perfectly adjusted, but I'm not taking it apart just to put the- to me- annoying stops in place.
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Actually, that "zero-position" adjustment method works perfectly. It compensates for any mounting trouble with the panel and aligns the cables ideally. Once they're locked in place, you can mess with the height of the panel casually. I did note that the lower panel catches slightly on the spoiler while closing, but it's not significant enough to worry about.
The switching gear turns at twice the speed of the control gear, but only turns it with every other tooth. So they're sync'ed from what I can see. Why the different sizes then? It's not for mechanical leverage (the worm & transmission gears take care of that), maybe it's just a packaging/space decision?
The roof stop position is smack dab perfect as well. I can hear the click of the relay at precisely the correct spot. I have a spare (of course) but couldn't lay my hands on it. Looks like a standard Bosch two pole relay (5-terminal) though. I'll bet that the slip clutch saves the gears long enough while the motor overloads to click that relay open. It might be an over-voltage setup. I'm told the windows work the same way.