M42club.com - Home of the BMW E30/E36 318i/iS
DISCUSSION => Swaps, Turbos, Buildups => Topic started by: BlueBMW on April 19, 2010, 06:05:37 PM
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Realizing I need to think about refreshing my timing components, I started asking around just to see if anyone I know has any extra parts etc to do the job. What I found instead was a complete motor... but not just a stock motor. One of the guys I work with, his dad has his own independent shop. They had built a motor for a customer and had it all running and going good but with one problem. The turbo seemed to leak oil internally, or wasn't draining properly or something so the result was excess smoke after the car had run for a while. After three rebuilds on the turbo, they gave up and put a stock motor back in the car. (or the customer ran out of money / patience) Whats left is a complete turbo M42 setup. From what he told me, they were running 22psi boost and had built the motor with 6:1 compression "ross" (?) pistons and everything else necessary to run such high boost. This motor was in an E36 and had the e36 style manifold etc...
Questions....
-- What is a nearly freshly rebuilt M42 with manifolds / pipes / turbo / intercooler computer / harness etc worth? Supposedly they want to get rid of it cheap since its been sitting for a long time now. I heard rumor of around $1200 for everything.
-- If it is true, what all am I looking at to make this work in my E30? I understand that it is a bottom mount turbo (which might be part of oil issue) I would think i'd need a new manifold to make it top mount. I would also need to swap / modify an E30 m42 oil pan to work. Lastly I know I'd need new pipes and mounts etc. Anything else I'm missing?
-- Does anyone make a boost gauge that replaces the fuel econometer?
-- Is there any way to setup a turbo to be somewhat reliable? I understand they were maxing things out at 22psi, is it possible to tune back to much less pressure to improve overall reliability?
-- Will my stock transmission and small case 4:10 lsd stand a chance at surviving with a higher powered motor? I'd be happy if it could be tuned to make 180 to 200 hp, but I don't know how much they were getting out of it at 22psi.
-- What size exhaust would I need to upgrade to? I'm still on a stock size 2.25" though with non OEM parts.
I've never done much with turbos etc (except for try and fix these new N54 motors at work... total junk!) so forgive my ignorance. I'm going to go look at the stuff this week so I might be able to get some pictures.
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I used to own and play around with 80's Saab 900 turbos, so I guess they are my reference point when thinking about turbo anything. Specs were as follows:
2.0L 16 valve turbocharged/intercooled 4 cylinder with 8.5:1 CR, approx. max boost 7.5 psi, Bosch LH ignition/injection.
claimed 160HP, 175lb/ft. of torque.
They had this system called "APC" which amounted to a computer/solenoid controlled wastegate that dumped turbo pressure when knock was sensed. The general consensus amongst Saab nerds was that the system was too conservative and prematurely bled boost pressure. We used to adjust the linkage on the wastegate until boost pressure got high enough that APC would instigate fuel cutoff under hard acceleration, then turn it back a bit.. usually wound up around 10 psi max using premium pump fuel.
These engines were EXTREMELY reliable. The rest of the car would fall apart around it while the engine kept on ticking. Like the M42, Saab's 16v used forged internals, timing chains, hydraulic lifters, and sodium filled exhaust valves. I think the Saab intercooler and APC system could be adapted to work with an M42. I don't see how turbo location could be contributing to the "smoke" as most automotive turbo setups sit below the head/s.
I wager that even at 6:1 CR, 22 psi of boost is going to be excessive with any pump gas especially considering you haven't mentioned an intercooler or knock sensor setup. I think your 6:1 M42 (intercooled) could manage 190hp & 190lb/ft @ 15 psi & premium pump gas. I'm thinking the low CR is going to give you some pretty mean turbo lag.
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I'm curious to see exactly how they had it set up. Having never dealt with turbos much previously I dont have much to go on. The only turbocharged car I had was a mercedes diesel which was weak even when the turbo did kick in. I guess you could say I'm used to lag with the stock M42 since it doesn't come alive until you get over 3000 rpm anyways.
The whole thing might be more effort than its worth, but since I'm looking at putting quite a bit of money into re-doing my timing components, maybe I'd be better off putting that money towards a different setup completely.
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I think we're ALL curious about turbocharging our M42's. Somebody needs to step up and really document the process. Maybe you?
I think it'd be cool to devise a clean looking (turbo below head), affordable, low pressure setup that'd allow 160-170hp/torque on pump fuel without any piston or engine management mods.
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There is no way that is the actual compression ratio.
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My understanding is this motor is already setup for a below head turbo charger, but I also am told that the oil pan was modified to accommodate that, and also it was for an E36 so that oil pan would be incompatible with the E30. I'll see what happens. As far as the compression ratio, I'm just going by word of mouth, I know they replaced the pistons and supposedly they are 6:1 which to me sounds really low.
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I think we're ALL curious about turbocharging our M42's. Somebody needs to step up and really document the process. Maybe you?
I think it'd be cool to devise a clean looking (turbo below head), affordable, low pressure setup that'd allow 160-170hp/torque on pump fuel without any piston or engine management mods.
I can put up some info and pictures of my M42 turbo setup when its finished :)
Looking for 3-350hp on stock internals and pump gas. It should hit the dyno 11-05-2010 if everything goes smooth.
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I can put up some info and pictures of my M42 turbo setup when its finished :)
Looking for 3-350hp on stock internals and pump gas. It should hit the dyno 11-05-2010 if everything goes smooth.
What PSI are running? I'm currently on 12-13psi at 20deg BTDC 11-12afr stock internals and the head locked down with grade12.9 bolts. Head was lifting last year at 18 psi on the stock head bolts
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What PSI are running? I'm currently on 12-13psi at 20deg BTDC 11-12afr stock internals and the head locked down with grade12.9 bolts. Head was lifting last year at 18 psi on the stock head bolts
I havent run on boost yet, just made a short test run around the block to adjust the MS and to see its all working :)
I have M50 non vanos rods and o-ring block with ARP head studs, very low compression like 7:1 hehe.
Will se how it works on may 11 :)
What size turbo u got and do u know how much hp?
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T3/T4 Hybrid 63trim
HP unknown I have not been to the dyno yet. I'm going to run 15psi and see how she holds up. Im purity confident it won't blow the HG out. There was a guy with a M10 running 26psi stock and it finaly let go when he ran into some boost spike problems if I remember correctly
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Based on my experience 350hp on pump gas for the m42 is unreachable- those are s42 numbers guys. But hey- dynos, threads, let's see them.
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I don't even know if there is a dyno local to me. We don't even have a nearby 1/4 mile track, only 1/8th mile here :(
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made about 30 runs today on 15psi . stock motor took the boost like a champ. I suspect it can hold more and I shall continue to push it
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16-17psi today and it was 5degC outside. AFRs 11-12/ 91octane. 300ft above sea level. saw some detonation at 19degs BTDC and so backed the timing off to 18degs and the car held with no problems. I suspect the spark plugs played a part in destination also, so I ordered two step colder plugs. The car is easly making over 300hp
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Based on my experience 350hp on pump gas for the m42 is unreachable- those are s42 numbers guys. But hey- dynos, threads, let's see them.
this..
the most i have seen out of a boosted M42 was 333 HP
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this..
the most i have seen out of a boosted M42 was 333 HP
Stock internals? whp or crank?
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^^ WHP and i cant remember it was a WHILE ago when i read it... lol
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I'm trying to scrounge up the cash to see if I can pick up this motor and stuff. If nothing else it might be fun to tinker with. I still have the E34 i can daily if necessary... (although city mpg is atrocious!)
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Stock internals? whp or crank?
whp, if were talkning about the same car it has M52 rods and pistons.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z37/Bmwrille/318is%20Turbo/mappning014.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z37/Bmwrille/318is%20Turbo/IMG.jpg
There is another guy here in sweden pushing his 2000cc M42 to over 615hp on E85 pump gas :D
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/Bonje_80/318is%20turbo/DSC00274.jpg
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There is no such thing as 350hp from a turbocharged M42 with stock internals. Nor is there such a thing as an engine that has a 10:1CR being fed 15psi of boost and pump gas without knocking. C'mon guys, prove me wrong!
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Is the purpose of reducing compression ratio to allow higher boost pressure without having to change fuel grades etc? (trying to learn more about this thing they call "boozt")
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Yes. That is why I'm calling BS on some of these ridiculous claims. As I was saying before it'd be cool to devise a low pressure setup that utilized all of the stock components including the stock CR (pistons). Maybe like 5-7 psi for an output of 160-170hp using premium fuel and possibly using the SAAB APC system or some other form of knock protection. This would be a realistic and awesome performance boost!
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umm i never claimed it was stock internals... that was someone else... and that car that made 333 was on a dyno jet so its prolly closer to 260 WHP
hell i have a friend with a 350 WHP M10
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Romrog318is: my response should have read 350hp as I was referring to another gentleman's claims, my mistake. Maybe you can dissolve these illusions by sharing with us some specs. on the setup you read about i.e. CR, boost pressure, engine management, etc.
I'm not trying to be a naysaying shit head here. I think a lot of us are interested in the subject of turbocharging our cars, and I think it would help if someone put up a solid build thread accompanied by factual performance info. I also think a lot of us are without endless supplies of cash for things like custom forged pistons and race-level engine management systems, which is why I think it'd be cool to devise a setup that is do-able and provides a realistic and reliable performance boost.
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There is no such thing as 350hp from a turbocharged M42 with stock internals. Nor is there such a thing as an engine that has a 10:1CR being fed 15psi of boost and pump gas without knocking. C'mon guys, prove me wrong!
You are wrong!! Im running 15psi all day long on stock internals and 91octane with 18degs BTDC spark
head bolts are torqued to 80Lbs as it was lifting at 18psi and squirting coolant out the water jackets on my last summer setup
many of the DASC tunes included a 10-12psi pulley and were intended for 91octane
There is atleast two m42 stock internal 12psi turbo setups in my area and they are holding up no problems
the m42 internals are factory strong and can handle alot of punishment.
The pistons and HG are the weak point
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Is the purpose of reducing compression ratio to allow higher boost pressure without having to change fuel grades etc? (trying to learn more about this thing they call "boozt")
its got nothing to do with fuel grades . lowering the compression will increase your displacement and allow you to pack more oxygen into each cylinder for a bigger bang and over all HP will increase
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Yes. That is why I'm calling BS on some of these ridiculous claims. As I was saying before it'd be cool to devise a low pressure setup that utilized all of the stock components including the stock CR (pistons). Maybe like 5-7 psi for an output of 160-170hp using premium fuel and possibly using the SAAB APC system or some other form of knock protection. This would be a realistic and awesome performance boost!
clearly you have alot to learn and you don't have a clue what your talking about. 5-7psi is over 200crank hp on these motors
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What are the negative effects of lowering compression?
But I agree, I think all of us are very interested in clean, reliable, budget friendly turbocharging solutions for our cars. Personally, I am interested in something that will give my daily driver that extra spunk for a little added fun factor. Hopefully without requiring me to upgrade my 14" weaves just yet! And without disintigrating my small case diff instantly! All without spending a fortune of course! :D It would be nice to compile a database of sorts of methods to achieve certain gains:
For example:
(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac253/bmcdanold/Car%20stuff/gotboozt.jpg)
That's a table of BS I just made up knowing very little about any of this stuff :D Forgot to add estimated HP and estimated cost. But you guys get the point. Something like that with maybe details under each build type maybe including part numbers, recommended sources etc. Might be asking for a lot but who knows!
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Are you running a knock sensor/boost control setup? If you were it'd be dumping your charge far short of 15 psi because it would be hearing knock that your ears aren't hearing. At 10:1 we risk engine knock under a load while running regular pump fuel alone, BEFORE adding boost. This is a fact, and is why M42 equipped cars require premium fuel. You're running 15psi "all day long".. but not without premature engine failure. And we want to see the 300hp+ dyno sheet.
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What are the negative effects of lowering compression?
Increased turbo lag and power losses down low
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Are you running a knock sensor/boost control setup? If you were it'd be dumping your charge far short of 15 psi because it would be hearing knock that your ears aren't hearing. At 10:1 we risk engine knock under a load while running regular pump fuel alone, BEFORE adding boost. This is a fact, and is why M42 equipped cars require premium fuel. You're running 15psi "all day long".. but not without premature engine failure. And we want to see the 300hp+ dyno sheet.
My knock sensor is a microphone and headphones. I run the motronic and I have been tuning BMW's professionally for years. Colder spark plugs, correct fuel and spark you can run on pump gas with boost and without issues.
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here is one of my 12psi runs on the lowest grade fuels in Canada. 89Octane -2degs from stock timing and no counts of knock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pkow5hti4
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Actually, I know what I'm talking about. These are REAL NUMBERS, from a REAL auto manufacturer:
Saab 2.0L 16 valve non-turbo: 9:1 CR, 128HP/131lbft torque
Saab 2.0L 16 valve Garrett T3 turbo w/IC @7.5psi max: 8.5 CR, 160HP/188lbft torque
That is a difference of 32HP and 56lb/ft twist. You're claiming more than twice the HP gains at the same boost pressure? With or without intercooler? With or without engine & engine management mods? I'm on your turbo-enthusiastic side, dude. So prove it!
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BlueBMW: your table would be excellent, particularly if you included the performance data and overall cost of each project!
bmwconnect: props for actually having installed a setup in your car. some of the missing info in BlueBMW's table could be filled in by you.
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Actually, I know what I'm talking about. These are REAL NUMBERS, from a REAL auto manufacturer:
Saab 2.0L 16 valve non-turbo: 9:1 CR, 128HP/131lbft torque
Saab 2.0L 16 valve Garrett T3 turbo w/IC @7.5psi max: 8.5 CR, 160HP/188lbft torque
That is a difference of 32HP and 56lb/ft twist. You're claiming more than twice the HP gains at the same boost pressure? With or without intercooler? With or without engine & engine management mods? I'm on your turbo-enthusiastic side, dude. So prove it!
Thats because the tune is very conservative. A good tune will get you 8whp per psi and 14.7 will get you little more then double the stock HP
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I assume by "tune" you're referring to the engine management software, which I realize is an interest of yours. To their credit, however, SAAB's conservative tune allowed for enhanced performance while preserving the 250-300K mile engine life expectancy.
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I assume by "tune" you're referring to the engine management software, which I realize is an interest of yours. To their credit, however, SAAB's conservative tune allowed for enhanced performance while preserving the 250-300K mile engine life expectancy.
My m42 has 230,000kms on the motor and I have been boosting for 2years on it. doesn't burn a spec of oil. It's all in the tune at the end of the day.
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okay, so that's 142,000 miles. how many of those were put on in the last 2 years?
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okay, so that's 142,000 miles. how many of those were put on in the last 2 years?
Around 60-50,000kms its a daily driver
I purchased the car at 120,000kms
zero motor problems but after boosting I can't keep my drive line intact for long . been threw 2 blown diffs and lots of rear end bushings
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18,600mi/year? that's a lot. that's like 2 years of driving for me. Destroyed drive lines, diffs, and bushings are not for me. Nor is untimely engine work.
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I have a dream: a bolt on turbo kit that offers moderate power gains (170hp/torque), is easy to install, and doesn't require modifications or untimely service. Oh, and costs $1500.
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There is no such thing as 350hp from a turbocharged M42 with stock internals. Nor is there such a thing as an engine that has a 10:1CR being fed 15psi of boost and pump gas without knocking. C'mon guys, prove me wrong!
I would say yes there is! But this is with E85 pump gas that we have pretty much everywhere here in Sweden, good for tuning :D
For example, a M50B25 VANOS with stock engine, not even rebuilt:
Precision SC5862 billet, 0.63 A/R.
E85 and 850cc injectors.
1 044 in the tank. (stock fuel lines etc)
ViPec ECU with VAG coils.
NA = 167 whp.
1.1 bar/16psi boost 406 whp.
BUT again, this is on E85 wich allows for higher compression ratio.
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Is the purpose of reducing compression ratio to allow higher boost pressure without having to change fuel grades etc? (trying to learn more about this thing they call "boozt")
Higher octane and/or lower compression will make the engine mor knock resistive = moore boost and moore hp :D
The low rpm torque losses are pretty small, u might not even notice it. I think the biggest "loss" with low compression is the fuel consumption at normal drivning, not a big deal.
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I'd love to see the dyno sheet as I have a hard time believing you're getting 350HP on that build. I know what it takes to get to those numbers and I've found it takes more displacement and boost unless you've made pretty radical head changes.
Are you talking RWHP or at the crank? I agree that the tune is important but I don't recall which ECU you are running.
For the record, I've built and race with BMW CCA a turbo M42 that's 1.95L and puts down about 300 RWHP in race trim with 16psi wastegate springs (with boost creep it's getting a little higher) on 110 leaded.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2980038
You are wrong!! Im running 15psi all day long on stock internals and 91octane with 18degs BTDC spark
head bolts are torqued to 80Lbs as it was lifting at 18psi and squirting coolant out the water jackets on my last summer setup
many of the DASC tunes included a 10-12psi pulley and were intended for 91octane
There is atleast two m42 stock internal 12psi turbo setups in my area and they are holding up no problems
the m42 internals are factory strong and can handle alot of punishment.
The pistons and HG are the weak point
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I'd love to see the dyno sheet as I have a hard time believing you're getting 350HP on that build. I know what it takes to get to those numbers and I've found it takes more displacement and boost unless you've made pretty radical head changes.
Are you talking RWHP or at the crank? I agree that the tune is important but I don't recall which ECU you are running.
For the record, I've built and race with BMW CCA a turbo M42 that's 1.95L and puts down about 300 RWHP in race trim with 16psi wastegate springs (with boost creep it's getting a little higher) on 110 leaded.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2980038
I will get on the dyno as soon as I can. I was talking 300 crank hp. I run the stock motronic 1.7.2 tuned by me. Vac motorsports did one with 12psi turbo stock everything and they claim they pulled 250rwhp out of it. The DASC 10psi stage 2 I think it is got 200whp so the figures for 250whp, 12psi ,turbo are probably purity close I would imagine
Nice machines also rob:)
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THANK YOU rob_e30.
Oh, and for the record what's your CR? I'd guess 7-7.5:1.
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made some pulls on 15psi today at 91octane and 21degs advance timing and basically slick tires
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN-mR6P0MWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38uEQetPKU
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I want a turbo :(
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I want a turbo :(
hehe ya it's purity fun. I eat 300hp mustangs no problems and they all think I'm running a 6cyl turbo lol
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Cool dude. Your car is obviously really quick, a huge improvement over stock. Based on your car's curb weight and 0-60 time compared to similar data I found on the web you're likely somewhere around 190hp.
My estimate was based on your 0-60 time of 7 seconds @ 2900 lbs.
A comparison would be the RWD Lexus IS 300 @217 HP and 3255lbs with a 0-60 time around 7.5 secs.
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Cool dude. Your car is obviously really quick, a huge improvement over stock. Based on your car's curb weight and 0-60 time compared to similar data I found on the web you're likely somewhere around 190hp.
My estimate was based on your 0-60 time of 7 seconds @ 2900 lbs.
A comparison would be the RWD Lexus IS 300 @217 HP and 3255lbs with a 0-60 time around 7.5 secs.
I don't know where you are getting numbers from but you are very wrong lol. 15psi on the m42 will make at least 300crank hp without a doubt
you have a lot to learn so start by reading this http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606
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I don't doubt that the M42 could make 400hp+, but it wouldn't be using a stock head, manifolds, internals, OR pump gas! THAT is my point.
How can you possibly provide a "good tune" via software without access to a dyno? Seems like to tune your setup at all you'd have already had your car on the dyno.
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I don't doubt that the M42 could make 400hp+, but it wouldn't be using a stock head, manifolds, internals, OR pump gas! THAT is my point.
How can you possibly provide a "good tune" via software without access to a dyno? Seems like to tune your setup at all you'd have already had your car on the dyno.
wow you realy are out of the loop lol. This motor could easly make 400hp on the stock manifold, stock head and a set of stronger pistons on pump gas.
You do not need a dyno to tune a car well. You need a wideband, knock listening tools and a big open parking lot.
I see you have alot to learn still.
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Okay, so let's say "I have a lot to learn". Talk is cheap, and this could go back and forth forever. Since you're the turbo expert and have a setup in your car that is putting down "300HP+" using stock parts, PROVE IT!!
I realize that I haven't read your How to Turbocharge an Engine book, but I have messed around with and read about turbocharged cars extensively. My guess is that you're 100HP enthusiastic, and that running 15 psi into a 10:1CR engine using pump fuel isn't going to last. Start with the HP.
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Okay, so let's say "I have a lot to learn". Talk is cheap, and this could go back and forth forever. Since you're the turbo expert and have a setup in your car that is putting down "300HP+" using stock parts, PROVE IT!!
I realize that I haven't read your How to Turbocharge an Engine book, but I have messed around with and read about turbocharged cars extensively. My guess is that you're 100HP enthusiastic, and that running 15 psi into a 10:1CR engine using pump fuel isn't going to last. Start with the HP.
you are a waste of my time.
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Ever heard of Water injection? That'll get you 400 on pump.
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Ever heard of Water injection? That'll get you 400 on pump.
Agreed!!
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Water injection does not make power, it cools the intake charge which reduces detonation and allows you to add more timing.
It's easy to put this discussion to bed and prove you are correct... post some dyno sheets.
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Water injection does not make power, it cools the intake charge which reduces detonation and allows you to add more timing.
It's easy to put this discussion to bed and prove you are correct... post some dyno sheets.
It not only cools but effectively increases fuel octane. Another thing to note is that when I'm doing hard pulls and I stop to check my piping after the inter cooler is very very cool to the touch so at this point im not worried about detonation to much. when I increase to 18psi it maybe a different story though. I'm just waiting on some colder spark plugs and then I will play somewhere
The dyno is not a priority for me because I'm trying to blow this up but and I want to see how far I can get on stock internals. Also there is only one dyno in this city and its all-ways booked way in advance
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got my colder plugs today. did some 18psi pulls and now my 36LB injectors are at 100% duty cycle. I heard some detonation on the highway under heavy load and backed the timing -2degs and it was fine after.
Car is a rocket and can easily take on some super cars. that is all!
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Still want a turbo :( Just saving the money now :D And it seems like my car might be using a bit too much oil so a rebuild might be in the near future. (1 qt every 2-3 weeks seems a bit excessive... maybe not, I drive pretty hard)
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Still want a turbo :( Just saving the money now :D And it seems like my car might be using a bit too much oil so a rebuild might be in the near future. (1 qt every 2-3 weeks seems a bit excessive... maybe not, I drive pretty hard)
I was burning a little also but then I switched to 20w50 and now it hardly burns any at all but the downfall is the long warm up time in the morning . my motor has 230,000kms on it
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I'm using the free stuff I get at work which is the BMW (castrol) synthetic 5w30, probably a bit thin considering I'm near 200,000 miles :D Although I've had Zero external leaks using it so far!
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lots of sketchiness in the thread....
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Turbos are a sketchy business.... :D
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lots of sketchiness in the thread....
The only sketchiness is how many people think you can't run high boost on pump gas and stock internals. example: stock talons run 30psi all day long at the track here and they don't even have forged internals and they are doing the 1/4 mile in high 11s on 94octance. At the end of the day its the good tune that will get you from point A to point B :)
Here is my list of mods for 18psi
t3/t4 hybrid 63trim turbo(ebay cheapy rebuilt with garret oil seals)
NGK Pro racing plugs temp rating 8
18degs timing at peak torque and 21degs across the board on 91 octane
Med size Intercooler
Metric Blue head 12.9gr bolts torqued to 80Lbs
36LB Injectors maxed out( not recommended lol )
Stock Motronic 1.7.2 tuned by me
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The only sketchiness is how many people think you can't run high boost on pump gas and stock internals. example: stock talons run 30psi all day long at the track here and they don't even have forged internals and they are doing the 1/4 mile in high 11s on 94octance. At the end of the day its the good tune that will get you from point A to point B :)
Here is my list of mods for 18psi
t3/t4 hybrid 63trim turbo(ebay cheapy rebuilt with garret oil seals)
NGK Pro racing plugs temp rating 8
18degs timing at peak torque and 21degs across the board on 91 octane
Med size Intercooler
Metric Blue head 12.9gr bolts torqued to 80Lbs
36LB Injectors maxed out( not recommended lol )
Stock Motronic 1.7.2 tuned by me
talons are also stock turbo'd and have a compression ration of what, 8:1 already? also take into account the reliability that DSM's are known for....
good luck with the ebay turbo...and a good tune makes all the difference in the world but have fun doing it with 36lb injectors and motronic at 18psi. it can be done but ill see ya down the road 10,000 miles.
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talons are also stock turbo'd and have a compression ration of what, 8:1 already? also take into account the reliability that DSM's are known for....
good luck with the ebay turbo...and a good tune makes all the difference in the world but have fun doing it with 36lb injectors and motronic at 18psi. it can be done but ill see ya down the road 10,000 miles.
yes and a compression ratio of 8.5:1 at 30psi is a effective compression ratio of 25.85 :1 in boost VS 10:1 M42/ 22.24 :1 at 18psi . Every BMW I have touched its been a case of the motor was the last thing to fail and the rest of the car fell apart so I would say BMW/German motors are just as reliable.
Also I have been running a cheap ebay turbo that I rebuilt with Garrett seals and I have had zero problems for 30,000kms
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All we are saying is:
1. Your car isn't "300hp+"
2. It's not a good idea to boost a car @ 18 psi whose CR is 10:1
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All we are saying is:
1. Your car isn't "300hp+"
2. It's not a good idea to boost a car @ 18 psi whose CR is 10:1
1. wrong. 15psi is around 300 crank hp with a good tune on pump gas
2. 18psi is a test and I never said it was a good idea. however 12-15psi on a good tune is easily done with this motor and will stay reliable
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1. 300hp+: SHOW US. The reason you won't is because you can't.
2. "Reliable" is an apparently subjective term.
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1. 300hp+: SHOW US. The reason you won't is because you can't.
2. "Reliable" is an apparently subjective term.
I will get on the dyno as soon as I can and If you know the dynamics of boost and compression ratios you can easily work out that 14.7 psi will double your compression and will effectively double your stock HP.
When is the last time you have looked at the internals in the m42?
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by the sounds of it never!
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Even if the formula in your how-to book works the way you think it does, double your stock horsies is still only 268 dude.
While I haven't yet had to tear down my low milage m42, I HAVE rebuilt an m10, as well a slough of other high quality engines including multiple Isuzu 2.2 and Yanmar 2.3 diesels, a Toyota 22R, and a Datsun L24- not that looking at engine internals has anything to do with proper maximum boost pressure.
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Even if the formula in your how-to book works the way you think it does, double your stock horsies is still only 268 dude.
While I haven't yet had to tear down my low milage m42, I HAVE rebuilt an m10, as well a slough of other high quality engines including multiple Isuzu 2.2 and Yanmar 2.3 diesels, a Toyota 22R, and a Datsun L24- not that looking at engine internals has anything to do with proper maximum boost pressure.
these motors are e36 140hp factory listed . however they make over 150hp or more NA tuned so that makes 300hp and formula used is a known fact and is a good base measurement. looking at the engine internals has everything to do with the proper maximum boost pressure or I would have bent rods at this point. I sure as hell wouldn't be running 18psi if I knew they were a standard non forged piston rod.
Forged crank stock
Forged Rods stock
4 Valves per cylinder flows very well
New combustion chamber designed to maximize squish and fuel mixing for a complete burn
Integrated piston oil squirters (very beneficial for boosting, cools piston crown)
Sodium Filled valves (once again dissapates heat, great for boosting)
Strong iron block
No timing belt to break
Very well balanced and likes to rev
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NO, you wouldn't have bent rods. Bent rods are caused by the cylinder being filled with something that doesn't compress, like water or liquid fuel. It's called hydrostatic lock. You're on your way to having collapsed pistons, sloppy wrist pins, and hammered bearings. These things are caused by knock, which means your combustion gases are detonating and expanding due to compression while the piston is still on it's way up.
We all agree that the m42 has tough internals and is a prime candidate for turbocharging.
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NO, you wouldn't have bent rods. Bent rods are caused by the cylinder being filled with something that doesn't compress, like water or liquid fuel. It's called hydrostatic lock. You're on your way to having collapsed pistons, sloppy wrist pins, and hammered bearings. These things are caused by knock, which means your combustion gases are detonating and expanding due to compression while the piston is still on it's way up.
We all agree that the m42 has tough internals and is a prime candidate for turbocharging.
So are you implying that hydrostatic lock is the only way to bend rods?
I don't have any detonation because It's tuned well.
I own one of the top engine tuning forums in the world and your trying to tell me about detonation, and hydrostatic lock lol please. I have seen/tuned more motors then you could ever imagine
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Nope. Only the most common.
I think you're the only engine tuning master in the world that doesn't have access to a dyno.
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I think that everyone is great and knows a lot. But does anyone know about this??:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4
I say let bmwconnect test the stock internals all day long. At least then you'll all know what it takes our motors to fail and under what intense conditions. NO?
Going on about a 17% drivetrain loss.
Rob was making 300RWHP which is like 350-355 CRANK HP.
300 CRANK HP is only about 255 RWHP. BIG difference. Getting to that 300HP at the crank is tough, but it's even harder getting past that mark and going up to 350+.
Kudos to Rob for building an awesome car. If bmwconnect does have what he says he does, than so be it.
Why doesn't anyone think this is possible? I don't know anything about the differences between Turbos and Supercharger but I've personally seen a 10.5 compression 2.3L car with SC, on a dyno in front of me, make 316 Crank HP on only 6-7psi. Not sure if this can even be added to the conversation mix but it was really cool to see a stock 192HP motor go to 316HP with such little effort. To boot, this was on a stock internal motor that had 216K miles on it!
Enjoy the vid......
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Also... just remembered of a friend who ran 18psi on stock internals on a M20 with no issues. Can it be done ....yes. Is it safe?...only the tuner knows:)
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The stock CR for an m20 is only 8.5:1.
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Well that sure as Sh$t helps explain a lot doesn't it!!:eek:
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car is still running strong. Having problems with idle control valve hoses cracking under boost pressure and leaking boost. lots of fun otherwise
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car is still running strong. Having problems with idle control valve hoses cracking under boost pressure and leaking boost. lots of fun otherwise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38uEQetPKU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pkow5hti4 :p
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38uEQetPKU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pkow5hti4 :p
Got dyno?
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snapped the lower offset differential bolt today. replaced with grade12.9 bolt and seems to be fine now . I fear the next thing to break is the sub frame mounts
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raced a 300whp VW carrado last night, he had me by a car length or so. now I know I'm making good power :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38uEQetPKU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pkow5hti4 :p
Is it just me or does that 0-100 seem dissapointing? Could it just be because its in a e36 I'm guessing. I was out in a R32 last night that was only making 199rwhp and it seemed faster and similar weight to a e36.
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new problem! blew out one of the exhaust gaskets at the header. I suspect the cheap ebay turbo manifold is not seating well. Anybody know where I can pick up those M7 studs & bolts for a decent price ?
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Quick question, what manifolds is everybody using? I've got a ball bearing t3 turbo off a skyline r32 gtst which im getting a steel exhaust wheel for. Theres a couple of manifolds on the UK Ebay but not sure on what peoples luck is with these manifolds fitting on a E30. At the moment I'm steering towards a 666 fab mani purely because I know its good quality and will fit.
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new problem! blew out one of the exhaust gaskets at the header. I suspect the cheap ebay turbo manifold is not seating well. Anybody know where I can pick up those M7 studs & bolts for a decent price ?
BMW OEM isnt that expensive :)
Quick question, what manifolds is everybody using? I've got a ball bearing t3 turbo off a skyline r32 gtst which im getting a steel exhaust wheel for. Theres a couple of manifolds on the UK Ebay but not sure on what peoples luck is with these manifolds fitting on a E30. At the moment I'm steering towards a 666 fab mani purely because I know its good quality and will fit.
I made my own.
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HG Let go finally. I spiked to about 21psi leaned out and all hell broke loose. I either cracked the head or HG is done. conclusion: 15psi is safe with a good tune :)
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I think the conclusion here is that excessive boost into a 10:1 stock CR engine is not going to last!
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key word... excessive! But reasonable boost should be attainable with some reliability.
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Dynoed the is turbo yesterday, 280hp :) I wanted more ouf of it but we had some problems with the MS at higer rpms, trigger errors i think so ill get back to that.
But i works really great below 6000rpm or so! Pretty fun :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ln2rVvzdE
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Dynoed the is turbo yesterday, 280hp :) I wanted more ouf of it but we had some problems with the MS at higer rpms, trigger errors i think so ill get back to that.
But i works really great below 6000rpm or so! Pretty fun :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ln2rVvzdE
what is your setup again? boost? can you post your timing map ?
Regards|
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Dynoed the is turbo yesterday, 280hp :) I wanted more ouf of it but we had some problems with the MS at higer rpms, trigger errors i think so ill get back to that.
But i works really great below 6000rpm or so! Pretty fun :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ln2rVvzdE
Nice with more is turbo´s in Sweden =) How much boost are running? whp or crank hp?
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what is your setup again? boost? can you post your timing map ?
Regards|
Check your PM :)
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Nice with more is turbo´s in Sweden =) How much boost are running? whp or crank hp?
Yeah, isnt it! :) Should have produced more hp though :( we had 200whp @ 0.8 bar boost but i think the downpipe is to restrictive or something, we tried 1.5 bar boost but didnt gain that much power :( 240whp @ 1.1bar i think. (should be around 280hp)
The DP and the trigger problem @ 6000rpm and above is two things i have to fix :) Might check on the cams as well. I want at least 300whp and 7000rpm, shouldnt be a problem.
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Ryann, you don't know as much as you think. A LOT of reading is needed by you.
Also, stock internals can consist of a thicker head gasket to lower the compression ratio. FWIW here is what you can get with stock pistons/head and available gaskets:
.080” = 9.75:1
.098” = 9.34:1
.120” = 8.89:1
.140” = 8.52:1
I think a lot of people in this thread may want to follow my build:
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89208
I am doing things as close to low budget as you can get which includes using the stock internals. I am going to be running a larger turbo than Rob is on the race car (Holset). I have a lot of experience working on and building race cars and I am interested to see what I can get. My goal is within what people are saying is impossible in this thread, so we shall see how it turns out. There is always the chance of failure though :)
FYI progress is slow as the car is an hour away from me and I have many things going on besides this hobby. Don't expect the engine to be finished quickly as I will be moving in stages. I am openly documenting things as well as I can though.
I am always amazed at peoples misconceptions about what an engine is capable of. Take the power goal and divide by the number of cylinders. 300/4 is only 75hp per cylinder. That's not really pushing any kind of limits or anything amazing. People will never achieve anything if people are always saying it can't be done.
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my 125cc dirtbike made 46hp on the lightest internals ever. even 100hp per cylinder should be no problem with a m42. cool project nick
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The stock CR for an m20 is only 8.5:1.
Actually it's not. That's a seta motor, m20b25 is 8.8:1.
You can easily bend rods from too much power from boost in an FI motor. It's a common failure mode. Atmo engines tend to fail in tension.
You are a crack up man! Do you get your info from books written in crayon?
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You are a crack up man! Do you get your info from books written in crayon?
Come now, lets keep it civil! :D This thread has some good turbo information so we should keep it neat and clean!
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It has more completely incorrect info than correct info unfortunately. I highly recommend doing your own research from a legit source (aka not forums) before proceeding on your own project.